Thursday, October 25, 2007

Update: McClain--Duke's De Klerk?

Last week, Group of 88 stalwart and current Academic Council chairperson Paula McClain spoke to the University Faculty meeting. After framing events at Duke in terms of the history of South Africa, she quoted Nelson Mandela: "'The time for healing of the wounds has come.... The time to rebuild is upon us.'"

At first glance, the comparison between Duke and South Africa doesn't seem immediately obvious. It is ironic, moreover, to see McClain quote Mandela given that she and her colleagues in the Group have shown no signs of embracing a Duke version of South Africa's Truth and Reconcilation Commission, which Mandela understood was necessary to achieve genuine healing after the fall of apartheid.

In this respect, McClain might have been better served had she chosen to quote not Mandela but F.W. De Klerk; indeed, her current situation resembles that of De Klerk in the early 1990s. The last president of apartheid South Africa, De Klerk presided over a movement that had been discredited by events and that had proven itself bereft of ideas. Such a description certainly could apply to the Group of 88.

In other matters, Bill Anderson provides what I fear is a prescient analysis on why a criminal investigation of the Nifong/DPD/DSI misconduct looks increasingly unlikely.

Baldo has his latest very funny Liestoppers cartoon.

An excellent response to Charles Piot's Transforming Anthropology "representative" scholarly publication. Piot, meanwhile, continues (in his capacity as chairman of the African-American Studies Department) to suppress the "Shut Up and Teach" video upon which his talk was based.

Durham received an extension, and will not file its reply to the players' civil suit until Dec. 10.

Superior Court Judge Orlando Hudson recently observed, "The prosecutors and police are not the people the public wants to see investigated. But I think with the abuses we've found with evidence, sometimes they need to be investigate." After events in Durham over the past 18 months, he has just come to this conclusion?

Finally, my colleague Stuart Taylor will be speaking at Duke on Nov. 2, courtesy of Duke Students for an Ethical Duke. Information is available here. Stuart has offered to forgo a speech and instead conduct a debate around the themes of the book. So far, Bill Chafe hasn't seized the opportunity to advance his neo-Prohibitionist agenda. No word, either, from Wahneema Lubiano and why it's her "privilege" to use Duke's dollars to engage in political activism. Nothing, likewise, from Prasad Kasibthala on how the Group of 88 represent "mainstream voices of reason" in the academy.

116 comments:

Dukex4 said...

KC -- I think I have been reading this blog too long, as now I think like you. (: My reaction to McClain's speech in which she invoked Mandela was your first reaction as well -- she left herself wide open for the next step - "Um - what about the Truth and Reconcilation Commission! " She wants none of the truth and all of the fruits of reconciliation. I drafted about three-quarters of a letter to the Chronicle on that, before my better senses took hold (how productive is it to argue with a rock..).

The irony is that her lack of leadership will marginalize the entire role of Chair of the Academic Council; without true respect, there is no power, and she is just not thoughtful enough to manage her role.

Anonymous said...

At least Jeremy Young does not seem to have the collegial attitude that to criticize any academic is to air the groups dirty laundry. The response from Ahistoricality was simply funny.

Michael said...

What is with the faculty like Prasad doing hit and run pieces? If you're going to enter the field of public debate, you'd better be prepared to debate.

Perhaps as a professor, he's used to dictating to students - well, the real world isn't full of students. Some people do hit back.

Debrah said...

This piece in Progressive Historians by Jeremy Young is fantastic.

He peels the skin off the skeletel remains of what little was left of poor Chucky Piot after KC dissected him days earlier.

Just an excerpt:

"Charles Piot needs to think long and hard about why, in his quest to prove that KC Johnson is debasing the blogosphere, he himself chose to demean the far more rarefied space of a major anthropological journal by using it as a forum for political argument. Even more significantly, the editors of Transforming Anthropology should be called to answer for why they decided to turn over their publication to the author of an irrelevant political screed."

Debrah said...

Bill Anderson has written some great articles; however, I hope he's wrong on this one.

I can hope.

In analyzing the Jena case alongside the lacrosse case, he offers:

"Nonetheless, while the story is more complicated than what the activists tell us, black Democrats in Congress have taken up the cause. In a recent hearing, they demanded that the local U.S. attorney in Louisiana charge the three white students who originally hung the nooses from a tree with "hate crimes," which would place them in prison for most of their lives. (To his credit, the federal prosecutor, who is black, told the members of Congress there was no criminal statute under which he could charge the students; the members of Congress basically demanded that he make up a law.)"

Anonymous said...

Reputable journals (in subjects like physics and molecular biology) retract published article which are discovered to be based on falsified data, involve undisclosed conflicts of interest, or contain other major breaches of appropriate scholarly conduct. Its failure to retract Piot's article shows that "Transforming Anthropology" isn't reputable.

jamil hussein said...

Unfortunately, Bill Anderson's analysis is spot on. Democratic party does not want to investigate this, and Bush admin is afraid of going after bad guys who are blacks because democratic party has demonized republicans of being "racist".

Also, there is no Attorney General now in the country, and democratic controlled senate has no plans to have such (the vote has not been even docketed!).

Maybe some day in the future, democratic party kicks racist thugs out of the party. Until that, no justice in this country.

AF said...

KC I simply have to ask one question: In UPI (page 323), is it a Freudian slip of the pen when it says "January 2 was the official date for Nifong to be sworn in for a full four-year term as district attorney, a traditionally pubic ceremony that in this case would attract a bunch of reporters and Nifong critics."

It was the one and only thing that I found in the book that made me wonder. I must admit, though, that there were several things that made me mad. No, furious. If Burness retires, at least we can consider it as a start. The "house" really is a mess and the time for a thorough housecleaning is now.

Thanks for the blog and the book. You have done much to expose this hoax for what it truly is. The only thing left is to follow up on the money due the families and the other LAX players. Time heals all wounds. Time also wounds all heels. Maybe, just maybe, they can be wounded badly enough to rid the world of complete and total jerks!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Interesting that you analogize Duke's failure to come to terms with its seminal institutional crisis to South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I have drawn the same analogy. While the Duke faculty chattering class will excoriate you for making such a link (how can apartheid be in any way comparable to a few rich white boys squirming over whether they may go to jail for 30 years), it is apt, writ smaller.

The purpose of the T&RC is to allow those harmed by gross institutional/governmental abuses of power to say their peace and reconcile their harm to principles of universal justice. They are given a forum to speak truth to power. If a black South African were wrongfully accused of (or wrongfully convicted of) a crime that carried a 30 year prison sentence, surely the international community would provide that person a podium to speak to their suffering. Indeed, such a person would be deemed a political prisoner.

Weren't the Duke three American political prisoners? Prisoners to a rogue prosector, prisoners to a biased media, prisoners in their own home to radical faculty members who sold them out to advance purely political causes because the alleged perpetrators were white and the alleged victim black?

The fact that the Three availied themselves of our unique constitutional protections, that, through the remarkable work of diligent and brave defense attorneys fortuitously (Bannon's chance discovery of Nifong's DNA fraud) proved their innocence does not negate the profound need for truth and reconciliation here at home, and especially at Duke.

Thus, I call for a Truth and Reconciliation Commission sponsored by the Duke facuty to clear the air and provide "the time for healing of the wounds..." Paula, are you there? "The time to rebuild is upon us."

Anonymous said...

Brodhead - University as an international leader in education"
"examine the ways through which Duke can become a more vibrant and influential identity outside of the US"

Too bad they can't their own house in order, before they try to take on the world.

Why can't they pay attention to their students, their customers first?

Anonymous said...

Barack Obama Nov. 1
Stuart Taylor Nov. 2
Durham Rocks!!!

Full of support and love for the real Lacrosse victims.

It looks like the healing has begun for the boys. Glad for that. They will have the challenge of "righteous victim-hood," to cope with. I think if we learn and gain meaning through tragedy more right ends up happening than wrong. This transcends victimhood, and survivorship begins.

I love the idea of a thorough public examination of the Listening Ad by Duke.

I'm torn about having a trial for the Duke 3 and see how much the jury in Greensboro thinks they should get. Being a tax payer in Durham I want to settle as low as i can.

However, I read that citiizens of Durham publically say the Duke atheletes should pay Durham... I see their reputations have been permantly damaged in the public.

=$$$$$ $100 million in damages is not too much.

I would totally love to go through the testimony, lawyers skill, just the sheer fun of this court case and share it with others on this blog. But i would hate to have to pay more in taxes because of the Conspiracy.
Liberal Durham Democrat

traveler said...

Group of 88 stalwart
Why is Kim Curtis still teaching at Duke? The money lost in the settlement of the Dowd case is not the real Duke loss. She enforces the mandatory “Bobble Head Doll” rule. Who would think that is the kind of student Duke wants to attract? I would guess that the excerpts below are written by men. Harsh words these: “..typical leftist professor - bitter, used up, incapable of independent thought”
----------------------------------
Students Grade Professors
Rate My Professors: Kim Curtis
Student Grading:
Good=3 Average=1 Poor=15

Student comments:
“Gave a failing grade to the soon to be exonerated Duke player falsely accused of ****. A man-hating politician using the higher education system to infect young adults with her mindless babble and hatred”

“I turned in good work but got a bad grade because she didn't agree with what I said. Lectures are boring. Lacks introspection and is closed minded because she is too liberal--she cannot appreciate any viewpoints other than her own. Maybe if you pander to what she wants, she will like you, but why take a class in college if you have to do that?”
.
“Utterly useless propaganda”

“Leftist, Marxist, gender feminist. Doesn't like men”

“I took Professor Kim Curtis' class (POL104.01) in Spring 2006. Though her class was not difficult, she was an exceedingly difficult, ideological woman, bent on making her own points, & not listening to anyone else's. We watched About Schmidt, read Hannah Arendt, and had a term paper of about 10 pages, to discuss what we learned, which wasn't much.”

‘Prof. Curtis does not possess enough emotional distance from her subject matter to teach it properly. She punishes students who disagree with her views and fails to offer a constructive environment. She should not be allowed to teach classes at any university, since she is a propagandist, not a professor.”

“preaches all the discredited leftist ideals. openly grades on student's looks and political position. disregards "inconvenient truths" that dismantle her arguments. just regurgitate what she says in class and you'll pass. typical leftist professor - bitter, used up, incapable of independent thought”

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=586157&page=1

Anonymous said...

The most recent cartoon that made me laugh was TJN's "Civil Suit Verdict" on October 19th. If all the cartoonist could put together a cheap booklet of Hoax related cartoons, it would make an interesting memento, UPI supplement?

Anonymous said...

I'm sure that Paula McClain is very anxious for the 88 cuts to heal but the words coming out of her mouth sounded like Mike Nifong's "Durham has some healing to do, and I need to be part of that healing process."

If Paula McClain is really interested in healing wounds at Duke, I prescribe a very strong apology.

Anonymous said...

A truth Commision for Professors at the John Hope Franklin Center?

On to the depositions!

don t. said...

Just finished UPI this evening...I am incredulous. I cannot believe the BOD has let this happen. Duke is not a university....it is a joke. I scraped the remaining decal off my rear window tonight.

I have one question which I have not seen answered...Where the hell was the advisor to the president, Coach K, while all this was going on???

Also, did the shift from academics to diversity begin with nanearl or before her??

Absolutely disgusting.

trinity60

W. R. Chambers said...

The excellent response KC links to is an article by Jeremy Young, a progressive historian, who takes Prof. Piot and Tranforming Anthropology to task: Piot for submitting his rant about KC to a scholarly journal and the editors for accepting it.

Young's well written article includes links to other interesting comments about KC and DIW.

Anonymous said...

How humiliating this must be for Duke University. How long will Brodhead remain as president?

frosty said...

"The time for healing of the wounds has come...The time to rebuild is upon us"...

That's a "scholars" version of "you better put some ice on that".

Nice touch.

Not unlike Nifong's statement after he crucified the LAX3 that Durham needed to heal and he wanted to bring about the healing.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Anonymous said...

CHRIS DAVIS, HARVARD '73

I agree, American academe is like the old South Africa, where a tiny elitist minority, operating on a thoroughly outdated belief system, controls a vast majority of relatively unwitting subjects/students.

Debrah said...

Wonderland must never end!

So many other voices are in the fog.....screaming to get inside its gates.

Jim in San Diego said...

An open debate would be fascinating. Worthy of live air time. Is there any way to promote this?

One possibility would be a "debate" framed like the presidential debates, which tend to be political speeches. However, when two sides are so far apart on what constitutes a debatable isue; on the rules of logic; and, even the nature of probitive evidence, this may be the best we can do.

Anonymous said...

Its clear the Republicans are going to get clobbered in 2008.

Of course, they forgot why they were elected in the first place.

This Duke case will drive me to vote 3rd party in 2008. I think there are many who will do the same.

Had Kerry won in 2004 I believe there would have been some chance his AD would have acted here in Durham.

If there are any Republican players out there beware. If you can't even get involved in a case like this there is no point in voting for you anymore.

mac said...

Bill Anderson may be right, maybe no one will be prosecuted in the Hoax, but don't doubt the value of a movie. Hopefully, all of the villains - from Nifong to the 88 to the NCNAACP to Nancy Grace/Duff Wilson etc - will be exposed.

Congress jumps when the news bites 'em on the @$$. Perhaps the movie will have long, sharp teeth.

Peter Allan said...

The 88 will never engage in a public debate with Taylor. Even if they were dumb enough to accept, Duke's lawyers would nix it, either to comply with a secret settlement, or to avoid future liability. I'd bet that Taylor knows it.

Ralph Phelan said...

You may have just insulted an underrated historical figure. De Klerk, like Gorbachev, when faced with the inevitable chose to usher it in rather than pointlessly and destructively fight it.

We'll be fortunate if McClain lives up to his example.

Anonymous said...

to trinity 60, as someone closely involved in the case, i was extremely disappointed that Coach K did not have the courage to speak out, it became painfully obvious that he too is just a puppet for the university, he lost all respect in my mind, he too does not understand the true meaning of being a leader

mac said...

If Paula McClain wants to begin the healing, she might first begin to tell the truth, the same truth that the people of the City of Duhh will not accept: the young men were (are) innocent, and they were falsely prosecuted, and they were roundly maligned - (especially by her colleagues.)

Might as well put Bactine on MRSA, if she can't put things in perspective: until she says it straight, with no equivocation, no Piotisms and distortions, she can forget about "healing."

xutag77 said...

Sarcasm on

How can Duke become a more international institution when the chair of Academic Council when even Kim Curtis is "essential to Duke's excellence"?

Ralph Phelan said...

Anonymous 10/24/07 7:54 PM said...
Its failure to retract Piot's article shows that "Transforming Anthropology" isn't reputable.

I believe that a time will come when economists, lawyers, scientists and engineers will reluctantly say the same of the MLA.

R.R. Hamilton said...

You know what's depressing?

KC is an Obama supporter. And yet he's on the "rightwing" of academia. Think of that: the leftwing of the leftwing party is the "rightwing" of academia.

The best reason for optimism?

The students' thorough-going contempt for so many of their professors. Think of that. And smile.

Anonymous said...

KC:

Once the book was released and the civil trials began, I thought the story of Durham and the lax players would slowly recede into memory.

However, in looking at the recent Keystone Cops actions of the Duke administration and professors they have given new life to this tragic event. Quoting Mandela? This is too rich with irony to ignore.

Shakespeare would have loved these guys for the material alone.

Ken
Dallas

Anonymous said...

To Trinity '60 and anon 7:36: In an interview with Bob Costas, Coach K said that he offered Brodhead his advice and counsel on the lacrosse fiasco in his role as special asst. to the president, but it appears that Brodhead rejected Coach K's offer. Anything that Coach K might have said or done after Brodhead's rebuff would have been viewed as officious and outside the chain of command. I don't think that makes Coach K a "puppet for the university". Brodhead's "benching" of Coach K was yet another egregious lapse of judgment on Brodhead's part.

Anonymous said...

Is McClain a Communist?

Ralph Phelan said...

Whoops. I'm an idiot.

I'd like to retract my 7:00 am post (and if KC were willing to delete it & this that would be best). Now that I've finally bothered to follow KC's link, it's clear that he like I considers "being like De Klerk" a goal for McClain to aspire to.

Ralph Phelan said...

don t./trinity60 said...
"Where the hell was the advisor to the president, Coach K..."

I thought he was a basketball coach.

Anyway, even if he was an "advisor," what was he supposed to do if his advice was ignored?

no justice, no peace said...

"Duke Senior Stories 2007//Profiles of Engagement" received...

Ugh.

The cover misrepresents Duke. It is of a young man playing the violin wearing a lab coat.

A woeful initial misrepresentation.

The balance, +/- two dozen profiles, appears to be geared around the fuzzy studies.

I'll provide excerpts later.

As an aside it is very difficult to read with intentionally faded small white font on a black background.

I'm quite curious to learn what these profiled seniors are all about.

traveler said...

Former Group of 88 stalwart: Houstan Baker

“More in common with black inmates than white colleagues? I wonder if he told Vandy that? And, the Black Panderers arrive at Duke?
--------------------
Black Captive in a White Culture?
By EMILY EAKIN

“And yet, as Mr. Baker sees it, in some ways he has more in common with the black inmates in America's jails than he does with his white colleagues down the hall.”

“…and Black Panthers were hanging out in his apartment.”

http://www.racematters.org/blackcaptivewhiteculture.htm

no justice, no peace said...

Inre; "...I agree, American academe is like the old South Africa, where a tiny elitist minority, operating on a thoroughly outdated belief system, controls a vast majority of relatively unwitting subjects/students."

One additional example that the Klan of 88, other faculty and the administration have become what they claim to despise.

Debrah said...

FYI:

This is one reason I thought the goofy idea of some in Durham to get Cheek to run a campaign against Mikey was such a perilous venture.

He had the same problems when he was on the city council over there.

Not knocking him. Imbibing occasionally is proven to be healthy and I enjoy it myself; however, when it's a problem, why on earth would you be running for public office?

Only in a place like Durham.

The blind leading the blind.

Steven Horwitz said...

Those with an interest in the issues of how universities do (not) or can (not) handle questions of faculty incompetence (including inappropriate use of class time) might find this column by Sherman Dorn of interest.

You might also see the follow up from Dean Dad.

Neither is talking about Duke, but they do raise all the questions of how to handle faculty who have tenure but aren't doing their jobs.

traveler said...

Anonymous said...
Its clear the Republicans are going to get clobbered in 2008.…
----------------------------

Bobby Jindal an ethnic GOP, was just elected governor of Louisiana.(A former “Jackass” voting state.) If you are believing the MSM babble, then the central message of D-I-W has been lost on you. Man, it doesn’t get better than what we are witnessing now!

A black bloggers says: (Jindal) ”…is still just a “sand nigger” to Bubba.”

http://www.blackcommentator.com/65/65_cover_louisiana.html

RockyMountainMan said...

A quote from a recent article on terrorism comments on the human tendency to not learn from harsh realities. I think it applies here especially to the (now) 87 slow learners at Duke University:

"Terrible ordeals tear individuals from their false shelters and rose-colored dreams, summoning society to face the hardness of reality. In the best case, Aeschylus teaches, the lesson enables one to move from passion to reason, or, more precisely, from the experience of suffering to the knowledge of that experience. This tragic understanding consists of awareness of the human condition and of its limits.

More often, though, one runs up against the limits of awareness. The worst of the storm has barely passed, and one is busy “moving on”—renovating dead-end roads, regilding the clocks of Cloud-Cuckoo-Land. We turn away from reality and its truths, which are neither easy to live with nor pleasant to talk about. Before long, repression is complete."

André Glucksmann
From the H-Bomb to the Human Bomb
City Journal

Debrah said...

H-S letters:


Give Stith a chance

With all the negative publicity that Durham always seems to get, I am ready for a change. Thomas Stith has a new approach to how to improve the quality of life in Durham -- both in fighting crime and being more fiscally responsible to the citizens of this fine city. I am going to give Stith a chance. I am tired of the same-old, same-old running things here.

Also, since Mayor Bill Bell's last campaign, I have been annoyed by the fact that when Bell found that he was trailing in the polls against incumbent mayor, Nick Tennyson, he brought in the "big guns" of the Democratic National Committee and their leader, Terry McAullife. That really turned things around for Bell. That was pretty low if you ask me, since the office of mayor is supposed to be non-partisan. Maybe Bill Bell is getting that committee lined up again in case he needs them to keep the status quo in Durham.

Joanne Liddle
Durham
October 25, 2007


This one is on target!:


Vote for Stith

When Durham voters go to the polls they will have an opportunity to choose a mayor who either 1) understands the proper bounds of his authority or 2) one who oversteps the limits of policy-making and intrudes in the day-to-day operation of city's professional managers.

The best indication of how a candidate will fulfill his duties in the years ahead can be seen in how he has performed in the past. Evidence suggests that our current mayor has overstepped the limits of his authority with respect to the Duke lacrosse case, and in doing so may have put at risk the interests of taxpayers.

Councilman Thomas Stith has often demonstrated a high regard for the limited role of the city's elected leaders. For example, he sought to affect cost-saving changes in the operation of city departments through an independent audit. His aim was to maximum efficiency at minimum expense. Bell rejected this useful tool of good government.

We deserve a mayor who appreciates the limits and opportunities of thoughtful leadership. Stith has shown he has the qualities required to not only help Durham grow, but to help it grow efficiently, with dignity and honor.

Ruthy Jones
Durham
October 24, 2007

Anonymous said...

What a good morning it is when KC Johnson posts an Update!

Jeremy Young was fabulous. I hope someone takes Amac up on his challenge in the Comment section to Jeremy Young's piece and tries to offer a sensible critique of KC Johnson's work. Certainly it has not been done, yet, and it would give us something to talk about.

Whoever made the comment in that same Comment section about the left embracing its blinders in this case surely nailed part of the issue. And the analysis of why an apology was owed and necessary was completely correct as well. At some point you'd think some fellow leftists would take the G88 to task because the G88 actions, especially since they were undertaken as a cohesive group, undermine the credibility of like minded folks who purport to be scholars.

Re BA's piece--too depressing. It would be a good idea if a leader, (preferably black...maybe Obama...) with some credibility who is an actual grownup could take responsibility for carefully documenting the facts and explaining to the country what really happened in the two cases and why the cold blooded frame in Durham requires criminal charges be brought against the perpetrators. Race relations in this country are precarious enough and important enough that someone of national stature badly needs to take the lead for a little national truth and reconciliation.

On Paula McClain wrapped in the Nelson Mandela cloak--how dare she, really, how dare she?!?

Observer

Debrah said...

This link might work better:

Lewis Cheek

Anonymous said...

McClain's comments are assinine. She and har group are still in control of the metanarrative . . . apologize . . . just apologize . . . what you suggest as a "healing of the wounds" could start with an apology. It should start with an apology. You and your group were very much the cause of many of the "wounds" that still to this day roil Duke University . . . apologize.

traveler said...

Group of 88 stalwart: Diane M. Nelson

Remember her “Feminist Strippers” against free speech protest plan? I think what really happened is that she marshaled the “Little Dears” into a row, they stripped to the waist, she took a good look, and called the whole thing off.

” The Duke University Faculty Handbook makes very clear that Professor Nelson's behavior was a violation of university rules:”
http://dangerousprofessors.net/2006_03_09_archive.html

And, what about the Duke Faculty Handbook? Did chairperson Paula McClain speak to the University Faculty about obeying, or even reading the rules. It seems to me that might be a “HEALING” factor to consider.

Debrah said...

"Race relations in this country are precarious enough and important enough that someone of national stature badly needs to take the lead for a little national truth and reconciliation."

I couldn't agree more.

Truth being the operative word.

Steven Horwitz said...

And lest you think only right-wing students are targeted by paranoid college administrators, you might check out the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education's latest case.

Always glad to see FIRE defending the free speech rights of both wacky racists and wacky environmentalists. Free speech should not be a partisan issue.

Debrah said...

If anyone wants to archive KC and Stuart on Good Morning America, here is the link.

A commercial will usually be running at the start. Shortly, the interview will emerge.

The last comment of the segment by KC really summed up the case in just a few words.

This one is worth keeping for your KC archive!

:>)

Debrah said...

"Free speech should not be a partisan issue."

But right now in this country, it more than often is.

Debrah said...

I don't get it.

I'm doing everything the way I always do it...but my links are goofing up this morning.

Otra vez:

KC and Stuart on Good Morning America

Anonymous said...

rr hamilton wrote: "KC is an Obama supporter. And yet he's on the "rightwing" of academia. Think of that: the leftwing of the leftwing party is the "rightwing" of academia."

You've got that one right! I have voted for exactly one Republican in my life, yet I am regarded by my colleagues as a stuffy conservative!

As an anti-leftist liberal, however, I am at the point of giving up on the Democrats. They have been so thoroughly corrupted by the far left that they betray genuine liberalism daily.

Maybe I should call myself (oxymoronically) a Radical Centrist.

Debrah said...

TO 11:39 AM--

When Bill Maher is being heckled from the audience and his show taken over by ultra-left-left-leftwing protesters...because he doesn't agree with them that 9/11 was an inside job.....

......that tells you all you need to know about the current climate.

Anonymous said...

Debrah, while you are relinking, I am not able to access the footage from when KC was on the panel @ Duke. Would love to.

jamil hussein said...

I wonder how Duke Women's Study Department addresses Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week that is going on in campuses around the country. Somehow I don't think it is addressed beyond "we hate conservatives" mantra.
The treatment of women by taleban, Iran and the rest of islamo-facists is certainly applauded by Duke Women's Study (with the exception of Turkey - the only country that does have basic human rights for women). For Duke Women's Study Dept. Turkey (as an US ally and friendly to Isreal) is the Little Satan.


If Duke does not shut down these clown departments, all hope is lost on Duke.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1916283/posts

traveler said...

Group of 88 Stalwarts - No hiding place LEFT
How does one even start to repair the damage done to Duke’s credibility? McClain, Yet another G-88 stalwart speaks out---SHUT UP-- reinforcing perceived stupidity is NOT a good plan!
--------------------------
Bad news travels - Colorado: Perception of the Duke Faculty

“…squalid behavior of the community of scholars at Duke itself.”

“No, the most astonishing fact, hands down, was and remains the squalid behavior of the community of scholars at Duke itself. For months nearly the entire faculty fell into one of two camps: those who demanded the verdict first and the trial later, and those whose silence enabled their vigilante colleagues to set the tone.”

http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/onpoint/archives/2007/04/carroll_dukes_sorry_faculty.html

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Is McClain a Communist?

10/25/07 8:36 AM
------------------------------------
No. You're thinking of Donald MacLean (accomplice of Guy Burgess, whom you confused with Burness yesterday.)

Anonymous said...

What about the Duke 3 supporters pulling together an "Are you listening?" ad in the Chronicle?

The ad could ask Broadhead and Duke faculty if they are listening to the check-writing parents, to the students they educate and to those in this country who actually *do* care about speaking to truth, and about reconciliation.

The Ad could ask the questions we all want answers to.

The ad would (not) be targeted at Broadhead, Wahneema, et al in the same way the "Listening Ad" wasn't targeted at the Duke 3.

:))

Anonymous said...

traveler @10/24 12:48 PM quotes:

For months nearly the entire faculty [at Duke] fell into one of two camps: those who demanded the verdict first and the trial later, and those whose silence enabled their vigilante colleagues to set the tone.

With the exception of the Econ Dept, which spoke out early, and the estimable duke prof who comments here, it seems the Duke faculty are still trapped in those camps, both sides wishing the war was over and they could all go home.

dave

inman said...

About free speech ...

... to heck with it. I'm going to start charging for mine. I'll be sending out bills on a monthly basis. Please provide me with the address to which you would like your bill to come.

Debrah said...

TO 12:09 PM--

First, go to The Diva World and scroll down to about the 21st comment.

I have it there.

If you can't get linked to it from there....and if nothing worked when you went to the Duke webcast page....then perhaps what you are using on your computer is incompatible.

I would ask a savvy computer geek on these fora to come up with a solution for you.

(Incidentally, the GMA link always works fine for me when I access it from my personal archive; however, sometimes when you click on it here, the interview does not emerge.)

Odd.

Since I'm not the technical type, we will have to defer to someone else here for assistance.

haskell said...

Traveler 10:17

Actually the BlackCommentator quote is from the 2003 election. Blanco and the machine defeated Jindal at that time, gloated and crowed about their win. Along came Katrina. All fell flat on their faces and totally proved their incompetence. This time around, Jindal was elected on the first ballot, essentially unopposed, and is the best hope for Louisiana. Hell, he is the best hope for all of us. A hard working, decent, well-meaning competent guy. All victim groups kindly sit up and take note. This is how you do it. If you choose to be a professional victim, or play the race or gender card, many of us are out of patience. Insenstive?? So damn what? Should I give in to your emotional blackmail?

But the important thing about Jindal and his staff is that, in fact, thay do care -- care enough to try to make things right for the people of Louisiana.

BTW, the BlackCommentator article praised NO mayor Ray Jardin as a businessman hustler out for a buck, just took that in stride, never blinked an eye. That sort of "leadership" is simply pathologic.

Gary Packwood said...

Anonymous 11:39 said...

...Maybe I should call myself (oxymoronically) a Radical Centrist.
::
With a lifetime membership in the Association for Extreme Yoga. :-)
::
GP

Debrah said...

Hmmmm........I'm beginning to have second thoughts about Jeremy Young.

Anonymous said...

The Group of 88 doesn't need an F.W. DeKlerk, it needs a Karl Doenitz.

Debrah said...

Since we are coming close to the time--around 5PM EST, 11PM in Tel Aviv--when KC usually signs out of Wonderland for the day.....

....I might suggest that any of you who wish to engage in spirited dialogue on Progressive Historians with Jeremy Young,( to which KC has linked).....should do so.

I enjoyed Young's piece on Chucky Piot; however, as most often happens, a commenter will later come in for a left jab......eroding previous work.

KC and the blog are now being criticized by Young.

This from a man who has admittedly participated inside a place like Daily Kos for a long period of time.

He dares to discuss the quality of comments on another blog?

LOL!!!

Outrageous!

(Proverbial rabid partisan politics conquering)

BTW, this could be an excellent topic to explore this weekend.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Beleaguered Prof said...

rr hamilton wrote: "KC is an Obama supporter. And yet he's on the "rightwing" of academia. Think of that: the leftwing of the leftwing party is the "rightwing" of academia."

You've got that one right! I have voted for exactly one Republican in my life, yet I am regarded by my colleagues as a stuffy conservative!

As an anti-leftist liberal, however, I am at the point of giving up on the Democrats. They have been so thoroughly corrupted by the far left that they betray genuine liberalism daily.

Maybe I should call myself (oxymoronically) a Radical Centrist.

10/25/07 11:39 AM


I'm surprised to hear that there are still stray anti-leftist liberals in the Democratic Party -- I thought all of us were purged by the end of the 1980s. Wait, when did Patrick Moynihan leave? He had to have been the last officeholder who could've (maybe) been called a "Liberal Liberal Democrat".

When I was in college, I was taught that Karl Marx himself directed the communists in America to call themselves "Liberal" -- since, unlike in Europe, they were making no headway against liberalism in America.

RRH

Anonymous said...

"Comments on various blogs and The Chronicle's Web site suggest (without any evidence) he is being fired for his handling of lacrosse. For what it's worth, during an interview with me two years ago, prior to lacrosse, he indicated that he would likely retire by the end of the year.

And many more comments argue that this is a positive development for the University. Despite our various disagreements and the recent controversy over the handling of the lacrosse case, I cannot agree with that assessment."

--Eliot Wolf, in today's Chronicle.

rrhamilton said...

traveler said...

Former Group of 88 stalwart: Houstan Baker

“More in common with black inmates than white colleagues? I wonder if he told Vandy that? And, the Black Panderers arrive at Duke?
--------------------
Black Captive in a White Culture?
By EMILY EAKIN

“And yet, as Mr. Baker sees it, in some ways he has more in common with the black inmates in America's jails than he does with his white colleagues down the hall.”

“…and Black Panthers were hanging out in his apartment.”

http://www.racematters.org/blackcaptivewhiteculture.htm

10/25/07 9:38 AM


I hope his white colleagues come to understand that they have more in common with Justin Barker than with Houston Baker.

Ironically, as light has recently shone on the fact that there was no "white tree" at Jena, only a "black door" that Mr. Barker defiantly strode through, and for which he paid the grievous penalty paid by so many hundreds of thousands of silenced whites every year, he may become the Rosa Parks of a new civil rights movement. And remember, no gang of six white men knocked Ms. Parks unconscious and then kicked her viciously in the face for refusing to change seats.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Is McClain a Communist?

10/25/07 8:36 AM
------------------------------------
No. You're thinking of Donald MacLean (accomplice of Guy Burgess, whom you confused with Burness yesterday.)

10/25/07 1:20 PM


I can't wait till he asks, "Is Kim Curtis a Communist?" :D

RRH

mac said...

2:51 Debrah,

Which way are you having second thoughts about Jeremy Young: better or worse?

One Spook said...

debrah @ 1:46 PM writes:

"I would ask a savvy computer geek on these fora to come up with a solution for you."

Perhaps others have responded to this, so forgive me if this is a repeat.

To be able to view a video online requires that you have a program on your system that will "play" the video in the format in which the video was created. Windows users can view a video made in the windows media video format (.wmv) because their systems come with the Windows Media Player.

Windows users who do not have a Real Player on their system cannot view videos made in the Real Player format unless they download, and install a FREE "Real Player Viewer," which can be easily done.

Conversely, MAC users generally have to download and install a FREE "Windows Media Player for MAC" in order to view videos made in windows media format.

Some newer systems (Windows and MAC) are more "idiot proof" and have several different video players (or players than can play multiple formats) already installed, so a user doesn't have to deal with this issue.

The subject video, linked by Debrah, is in Real Player format, so one needs to have a Real Player Viewer on their system to view it.

For those of you, like Debrah, who wish to link to a site that has a video, you should link to the page that has the link to the video, rather than attempting to post a link to the video site itself.

Then, a user can click on the link pointing to the video and the user's system will parse (interpret; handle) the page that contains the actual video. Different systems and browsers will parse the actual page where the video is located in a different manner, and that is why you should put a link only to the page that links (points) to that video, rather than the page of the video itself, here.

Generally, a user is given the option to View (Open) the video, or to Save (add to one's hard drive) the actual video itself for viewing later and archiving.

I hope this helps. (Caveat: To actual serious computer geeks and technical freaks, I realize I have made fairly general statements here and that exceptions exist ... this is OK, because what I wrote will explain it for 99% of the people reading it. If you're not happy, sue me.)

One Spook

traveler said...

haskell said...
Jindal was elected on the first ballot, essentially unopposed,
----------------------------
Actually there were a dozen names on the ballot. That Jindal could win on the first round was a huge success. No one could guess how many votes each candidate would receive, and he needed a majority to avoid a runoff election. Two of the major opponents were millionaires with deep pockets. Jindal raised a lot of money as well, but he could ill afford an expensive runoff campaign against them. Georges poured more than $9 million of his own money into the campaign.

It was the most expensive political race in Louisiana history.

Jindal was called a “Sand Nigger” by racists, but I couldn’t say that without a quote of course. I tried to find a good quote, but most of the slurs were in blog comments, and were vile, beyond vile. Bubba said the words, and with a touch of humor, I thought. I just wanted our readers to know the slur words. It was reported Jindal only received 10% of the black vote. So you could say, a majority of whites will vote for an ethnic, and blacks will not. Does that run against conventional thought do you think?

Once again there was a little rumor that Jindal was a closet Muslim, it went nowhere. There was a rumor that Katrina and Rove ethnically cleansed the blacks from the state, and Jindal was a part of that conspiracy.

No one worked harder for Jindal than my friend, a lifelong Democrat. In the South, a lot of us were Conservative Democrats. We did not leave the Democratic party, IT LEFT US! There are a lot of Zell Miller Democrats in the South.

Now maybe my friend and I can get back to trading recipes!
-------------------------
The Times-Picayune
The victory came despite the presence of two deep-pocketed, self-financed candidates -- Democratic state Sen. Walter Boasso of Arabi and New Orleans-area businessman John Georges, who ran without party affiliation -- who spent millions of their own dollars trying to push Jindal into a runoff but never made significant inroads with voters.

By winning more than 50 percent of the primary vote against a field of 12 candidates, Jindal became the first candidate to win an open gubernatorial seat since Louisiana adopted its nonpartisan primary system in 1975.
http://www.nola.com/elections/index.ssf/2007/10/1st_indianamerican_governor_in.html

Anonymous said...

It has become obvious to me, with the continued malfeasance of Brodhead and the 88, the absurdities in higher education that is consistently exposed by F.I.R.E., Harry Reid's patently false coupling of "GLOBAL WARMING" and the fires in Southern California, and Barbara Boxer's (since retracted) complaint that the war in Iraq is adversly affecting fighting the wildfires, that what we need in this country is a NEW WATER POLICY. Rather than mandating that communities put FLOURIDE in the water, we must REQUIRE that communities put LITHIUM in the water supply.

Our nation is being rent asunder and I feel powerless to stop the madness! The 88, Brodhead, Steel, Houston Baker, Ward Churchill, Lubiano, Boxer, Reid, etc. are symptomatic and very frightening.

Texas Mom

Debrah said...

Check this out from Duke Gang of 88 pack leader Karla Holloway.

no justice, no peace said...

“It should be your care, therefore, and mine, to elevate the minds of our children and exalt their courage; to accelerate and animate their industry and activity; to excite in them an habitual contempt of meanness, abhorrence of injustice and inhumanity, and an ambition to excel in every capacity, faculty, and virtue.” —John Adams

For your term paper, please compare and contrast Founding Father John Adam's comment and the intellectualism presented by the Klan of 88.

frosty said...

(Durham-in-Wonderland)-in-Wonderland...

Are the lessons of this entire episode that hard to comprehend?

anonymous said, "If Paula McClain is really interested in healing wounds at Duke, I prescribe a very strong apology". ----please, tell me you are kidding. Any and all who call for apologies, whether they are "strong", or "heartfelt" or whatever adjective you choose in order to make yourself feel better about self-delusion, have not learned a thing about the nature of these 88 leftists. For these people, the race, gender and class mantra is their RELIGION. It is the defining theme of their life and the focus of their academic/political committment. If they have to apologize in order to continue their crusade, they will look all of us in the eye and make that lying apology without blinking. Do not delude youself into thinking an apology would represent even the slghtest change in their attitude or dimunition in their committment to their goal. "Next semester, sign up for my new class...Capitalism and Freedom-How America Benefits All Cultures..I'm not seeing it and neither will the rest of you. These 88 must be forced from their posts. Apologies will not suffice.

Anonymous said, "If there are any Republican players out there, beware. If you can't even get involved in a case like this there is no point in voting for you anymore."----Answer this question..How does a Democrat driven scandal such as the Duke Lacrosse case turn into a reason not to vote Republican? I could safely state that nearly 100% of the Gang of 88 are Democrates, the vast majority of the 200 to 300 members of their departments, as KC states in his book, are Democrats. The majority of the Durhamites that wanted to hang the LAX3 first and then deal with the intricacies of that costly and aggravating thing called a trial later, were almost exclusively Democrats. I don't know for a fact, but could surmise without feeling too anxious about it, that the majority of the Duke Administration are Democrats. Anybody want to venture a guess as to our esteemed DA Nifong's party affiliation? If you guessed Democrat, you are a winner! And yet somehow those who are Democrats such as anonymous above, have twisted this into a reason not to vote Republican. What does it take to make a Democrat change his mind and his vote? And I would add, KC, how you can suport Obama after the first hand view you have had of the Democrat base, astounds me. Do you honestly think his election would do anything but embolden the very people and their accomplices who made this entire Duke episode possible? I know there are many other issues on which to base a vote, but the academic/cultural war we are in would seem to me to be high on your list.

Anonymous said...

While I understand a poster above referring to the Duke Three as "political prisoners", I think it would be helpful for one of the PC courses to be replaced with a "How America Really Works" course, so students could frame the Nifong incident against a more realistic background.
The "Duke Three" are in way the only white, middle class individuals to have had their lives turned upside down by a determined political enemy and very
few victims of government malfeasance would have recourse to the likes of Brendan Sullivan.

Anonymous said...

One spook, you were the only taker and I am still befuddled. I am using my MacBook Pro - and I can not access the video. But I appreciate your attempt to help.
I enjoyed your cartoon of KC's nephew proofing the book. He did quite a good job. Also liked your Tel Aviv pic.
Juj

mac said...

Debrah,
Thanks for the Holloway link.
I could give Karla some anecdotes (which are what I call "experience") with a neighborhood that is awash in gangsta culture, and how the decent neighbors with children have to deal with the encroachment of the thug-types. In one family that moved here, their older children were lost - (when they lived in another city) - to the thug-type culture; their younger children have a chance - maybe - and are doing well in school and elsewhere. But there are those who visit from down the street who bully and threaten them, and emasculate them as surely as any capable emasculator like Kim "Grade Gremlin" Curtis, and the children may yet end up on the losing end. If it is up to the likes of Karla Holloway, they'll fail; if it is up to Bill cosby, they'll do just fine.

For now, they are good students. And in a real sense, in our neighborhood, they are in hiding. They might as well be in a Witness Protection Program. Sewerage flows.

Cosby is right: Holloway is a dope.

You can stuff my anecdote, Karla. Wherever.

Ralph Phelan said...

"It was reported Jindal only received 10% of the black vote. So you could say, a majority of whites will vote for an ethnic, and blacks will not. Does that run against conventional thought do you think?"

It's starting to look to me not like the fundamental distinction in America isn't "white vs. non-white," but "african american vs. non-african-american." And it's that way because african-americans are consciously choosing to make it so. (Anyone remember the Black/Korean conflicts during the Rodney King riots?)

My hypothesis is that, like the Irish and Italians before them, Indians and Chinese are being accepted into the mainstream, and the reason for that is that while whites may (unfairly, of course) use color as a marker and crude predictor or behavior, color is not their fundamental motivation, behavior is.

It's unfortunate for Jamaican and Dominican immigrants that they aren't visibly distinctive, or they'd be more rapidly joining the mainstream too.

Ralph PHelan said...

"Check this out from Duke Gang of 88 pack leader Karla Holloway."

Sorry to get personal, but performance does matter. And while it's certainly likely that Holloway's personal tragedies are not related to her beliefs about parenting, surely we must admit that it's at least possible that they are.

Cosby had a child he raised get murdered.
Holloway had a child she raised become a murderer.
When Cosby talks about the raising of children, Holloway should shut up and listen.

That she doesn't is perfectly consistent with the arrogant, accountability-free intellectual culture she lives in.

R.R. Hamilton said...


Debrah said...

Check this out from Duke Gang of 88 pack leader
Karla Holloway.

10/25/07 7:25 PM


One could never make this up: The mother of a racist rapist-killer, lecturing Bill Cosby (and the rest of us) on how to raise children.

She needs to be reminded of the memory of Peggy Carr and her son's other victims every day for the rest of her life. She needs it, as it seems she had a wager with her son to see who could inflict the most pain on innocent white people in their lives.

I understand that American colleges are now being called to recognize "Islamo-Fascist Awareness Week". I think we need to add "Interracial Crime Awareness Week" -- and at Duke, have a special ceremony for Peggy Carr.

Anonymous said...

JLS says....,

Alas the gang of 88 and the Duke administration believe the 88 are doing their jobs. They were hired to be some combination of female, black, homosexual and to be radical like they perceive faculty members at Harvard etal are. The certainly are the former and the latter.

Sadly for Duke it had to really reach and really went over board in hiring such people who are not as smart as the average Duke undergraduate admit. It seemingly has not worked out so well to have a large segment of the faculty not smart as the student body. Who would have ever guessed?

Anonymous said...

Re Bobby Jindal, he is in fact Louisiana’s 60th Caucasian Governor, so perhaps 90% of Louisiana black voters were conscious of whom they were opposing. I’m actually inclined toward the Phelan Hypothesis (@10/26 8:26 AM) that the fundamental distinction in America now isn’t “white vs. non-white,” but “african american vs. non-african-american,” with the further distinction that not all african-americans (nor “progressive” whites, for that matter) recognize other african-americans such as Bill Cosby, Clarence Thomas, Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, et. al., as “authentic” african-americans.

Defining “race” gets tricky, as the U.S. Supreme Court discovered back in the day. First the Court denied extension of U.S. citizenship to a fair-skinned person from Japan in Ozawa v. U.S. (1922) because:

The term “white person” as used in [the law] and in earlier naturalization laws applies to such persons as were known in this country as “white,” in the racial sense when it was first adopted and is confined to persons of the Caucasian Race…”

Then a year later, in the case mentioned in the first link at top of this comment, Bhagat Singh Thind v. U.S. (1923), while conceding that ethnologists classified Indians as Caucasians, the Court contradicted itself by declaring that lightness of skin color is the deciding factor, adding:

[The word Caucasian] … has come to include far more than the unscientific mind suspects. According to Keane, for example (The World's Peoples, 24, 28, 307, et seq.), it includes not only the Hindu, but some of the Polynesians (that is, the Maori, Tahitians, Samoans, Hawaiians, and others), the Hamites of Africa, upon the ground of the Caucasic cast of their features, though in color they range from brown to black. We venture to think that the average well-informed white American would learn with some degree of astonishment that the race to which he belongs is made up of such heterogeneous elements.

The Court denied Thind’s petition for citizenship.

Although the old racial classifications we learned in school are being discarded by physical anthropologists (the cultural anthropologists seem loathe to give them up, if only for their usefulness as “social constructs” to be “deconstructed” for political-polemical purposes), genetics-based research inevitably will sweep aside the atavisms.

The one thing I agree upon with the editors ofTransforming Anthropology (publishers of Piot’s hit-piece) is that racial distinctions are invidious.

dave

Debrah said...

TO "mac"--

Yes, that is one pathetic column. Holloway lives in a very strange world.

No wonder she feels othered.

She needs to feel unemployed.

:>)

One Spook said...

juj @ 6:40 AM writes:

"One spook, you were the only taker and I am still befuddled. I am using my MacBook Pro - and I can not access the video. But I appreciate your attempt to help.
I enjoyed your cartoon of KC's nephew proofing the book. He did quite a good job. Also liked your Tel Aviv pic. Juj"


All right ... compliments will get you everywhere! Since a lot of random links have been posted (some not working), let's give this another shot:

This is the link to the page that has the link to the video of KC at the Duke Forum 9/28/07

1. When you get to that page, scroll down to The Court of Public Opinion: The Practice & Ethics of Trying Cases in the Media - Part 3

2. Just below the words "Part 3," click on "Webcast." If you have the Real Player program on your computer, the video should automatically open. KC's part begins at about the 26 minute mark and runs to about 54 minutes; the Real Player allows you to scroll to a specific time point.

If you DO have that program and the video DOES NOT open and you are NOT using the Internet Explorer browser, you might try using the Internet Explorer browser and then do the same steps listed above.

If that does not work, then I am out of ideas and it will be necessary for you to view the video through the prisim of race, class, and gender where any alternate reality is possible ...

Good luck, live long, and prosper ...

One Spook

Anonymous said...

One Spook, you're a gentleman and a hero but now I am traveling, on my older Mac and Internet Explorer keeps crashing so obviously I am now in the wilderness where I will have to view through the prism of race, class and gender.
Or I'll wait and try again when I get home - yes, I prefer that option.
Live long and prosper and the best to you, Juj

inman said...

dave...question? (Because you seem to be into this stuff...)

What is the probability that Neanderthals and Cro Magnon man interbred? And if so, would that imply that some of modern man (currently known only by "homo sapien sapiens")is derived from 2 different species, with the possibility that there are currently existing (A) humans with pure-bred cro magnon dna and (B) other humans with the cross bred dna? And, if so, wouldn't that argue for at least a separate sub-species than "sapiens" (or even a separate species)?

After all a mule is not a horse is not an ass.

Anonymous said...

Inman, you can find your answer and much more in "Maps of Time" by David Christian. - Juj

Ralph Phelan said...

"older Mac and Internet Explorer"
Are a deadly combination.

Try iCab.

Anonymous said...

thank you rp - iCab rather than Firefox? Juj

Anonymous said...

Not that into the stuff, inman @10/26 3:41 PM, but the current view appears to be no, or not much. (More here and here.)

Any resemblance between Neanderthals and certain Duke faculty (not the estimable Duke prof, who comments here) would be entirely coincidental.

Mules... harder to say.

dave

traveler said...

G-88 stalwart Paula McCain

GIFTS AT WORK
Summer Institute Promotes Graduate School For Minorities

………for African American, Hispanic and American Indian students. Sponsored by the American Political Science Association (APSA), the RBSI is funded by the National Science Foundation and Duke.

Duke faculty. Paula McClain, a political science professor, teaches the "Race and American Politics" course.
http://www.development.duke.edu/campaign/gifts/2002/rbsi.html
-------------------------
How is that not discrimination?
Could we add “Poor Whites” to the Duke list of minorities? Everyone there is rich don’t you know? There must be a poor white student there someplace, a sad little minority in that ultra elite atmosphere. Who is going to step up and protect them, nurture them, point out the mean people trying to do them in? Paula McCain? People that distain discrimination, teaching discrimination. The world has gone mad!

inman said...

DAVE @ 5:48

Thanks. Interesting stuff ... but the focus seems to be on mitochondrial DNA ... mother to daughter, etc. The notion that Neanderthal men raped Cro Magnon women or that Cro Magnon women simply liked Neanderthal sexual prowess could explain the absence of mitochondrial DNA evidence. And it may be that Neanderthal women had a characteristic that Cro Magnon man simply found dusgusting (e.g. really noxious pheromones or gymnastic and harmful sexual habits such as those of the praying mantis (which kills its male mate)) ... hence interbreeding could have been singularly one way -- Neanderthal male and Cro Magnon female. Hence, no mitochondrial evidence.

Whether rape or consensual, Cro Magnon men potentially would have been really pissed off and could have killed Neanderthal men in reprisal. Hence the extinction of the Neanderthals.

I think Y-chromosone evidence is needed.

Anonymous said...

JLS says....,

I just came back from a book store and happened to notice Cosby's book. That cause it to dawn on me that it is so so appropriate that once again Holloway ends a column trying to stifle debate. Anyone she can not argue with or refute and that is pretty much everyone, she thinks we need to hear less from as in the case of Cosby "it is time for us to hear less from America's favorite father."

Anonymous said...

Interesting speculation, Inman @10/26 11:22 PM, and we can be sure that some paleoanthropologist, somewhere, is looking into this very question right now.

As I understand it, the genetic mapping of Neanderthal DNA is already well-advanced, and current thinking is that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons were completely different species. This suggests that they might have been about as akin to each other as horses and asses, which, as our granddaddies knew, are capable of interbreeding, but the offspring are always sterile. Millions of mules, and not one pronucleus for progeny.

There's also the question of "opportunity." Primate groups are more tribal and territorial than the G88. So while a comely Cro-Magnon might feel drawn to a dashing Neanderthal they'd have more trouble getting together than a Montague and a Capulet. (True story: I worked on a project that involved relocating some U.S. bred-and-raised all-American rhesus macques into the equatorial jungle of another country. The rhesus cages were set up under a soaring canopy of trees, the tops of which were swarming with the local native monkeys. One day, one of the rhesus monkeys managed to escape from his cage and immediately clambered up the tree trunks into the canopy to greet his fellow simians-- free! free at last! my brothers!-- whereupon the local monkeys seized him and hurled him about 75 feet from the treetops to the ground, killing him instantly. An important lesson in primatology.)

There's still the possibility of date-rape, but in the movie "Quest for Fire" it seems that the Neanderthals were more interested in eating Rae Dawn Chong than mating with her. Served them right to become extinct.

But what has any of this to do with Paula McClain?

dave

inman said...

Dave @ 11:10

Actually, the notion that primate groups are more tribal and territorial than modern humans would support the prior hypothesis. Just as lions force the departure of adolescent males from the pride, perhaps Neanderthals forced young males away. This would hypothesize that Neandethals were polygomous and that an alpha male would guard a harem of Neanderthal females.

The young and weaker males, vanquished from the group or tribe, would roam and finding a common species would seek sexual conquest.

Modern analysis assumes that men and women are intelligent and have some sense of social responsibility and order. Modern analysis uses modern structure as the frame of analysis.

But if you eliminate that frame of analysis then the notion of a primate / homonid / early man acting in a manner unknown or repulsive to modern man is not so far fetched.

I submit that the dynamics of Neanderthal and Cro Magnon interaction is substantially more complex than previously stated.

One Spook said...

dave @ 11:10 AM writes:

"One day, one of the rhesus monkeys [U.S. bred-and-raised all-American rhesus macques] managed to escape from his cage and immediately clambered up the tree trunks into the canopy to greet his fellow simians-- free! free at last! my brothers!-- whereupon the local monkeys seized him and hurled him about 75 feet from the treetops to the ground, killing him instantly. An important lesson in primatology."

Dave ... did you and your colleagues accidentally dress those American-bred monkeys in fraternity sweatshirts, or were they particularly good athletes, or were they bred in special private schools in Long Island? Did they wear Old Spice cologne and penny loafers with chinos?

That's a terrific story, btw, but enquiring minds want to know more details ...

One Spook

Anonymous said...

One Spook @10/28 4:22 AM

… those American-bred monkeys in fraternity sweatshirts, or were they particularly good athletes, or were they bred in special private schools in Long Island? Did they wear Old Spice cologne and penny loafers with chinos?

Naturally we considered this possibility. Certainly our monkeys were better spoken and enjoyed superior medical care. Some, searching for the root cause of the native monkeys’ resentment, speculated that they may have regarded the American monkeys as neo-colonialist lackeys of global capitalism subverting the indigenous culture with consumerist values– although the native monkeys stole our monkeys’ food every chance they got. Whatever the cause, others argued, it had been bad enough.

All we knew for sure was that the arboreal chatter swelled to outraged howls of “hooligan! hooligan!” moments before our hapless rhesus hurtled downward though the forest canopy.

We never did discover why. The native monkeys refused to discuss the matter, saying only that the healing process should begin and that it was time to move on. Which we did at the urging of our own monkeys, who were reporting dark mutterings of “uncollegial” and “dead monkey swinging” outside their cages in the night.

enquiring minds want to know more details ...

I’d be embarrassed to tell you the reason we dragged U.S. domestic rhesus macques into a foreign jungle, although I infer from your nom-du-blog and a certain knowingness of some of your comments that you may not be unacquainted with hare-brained schemes in your own field, exploding cigars, chin hair depilatories, etc., and, therefore, would understand.

Anonymous said...

Inman @10/28 10:43 PM

Overlooking for the moment your sexist presumption that late-Pleistocene hominid groups were not nurturing and irenic matriarchal societies co-existing in Edenic bliss, I see a couple of difficulties with your young male Neanderthal-young male lion analogy:

1) Lions are the very embodiment of Tennyson’s “nature red in tooth and claw.” A single male lion has no difficulty subsisting in the wild as a solitary predatory carnivore, whereas a single post-adolescent Neanderthal male would have had a rough go of it surviving only by his (half?) wits. It just wasn’t smart to go out into the Pleistocene by oneself.

2) An alpha lion can get along just fine as the solitary male in a pride. The lionesses are as well-equipped as he is for scratching and biting, and in fact do all of the hunting. (I had a serious argument with an ardent feminist on the subject and was forced to concede that Simba was a total slacker, and we ought to refer to Panthera leo as the Queen of Beasts.) A solitary alpha hominid, on the other hand, would lose his harem in short order to any roving gang of males, without other males to assist in the harem’s defense. It’s unlikely that the young and strong ones were sent away. (This is why CEOs still retain today a contingent of young-blood potential rivals to help run the company, distracting them with executive training programs.)

3) Although I can’t be sure how far Homo neanderthalensis had developed the Social Contract, the evidence from primatology and paleoarchaeology would indicate that they had one, without which their lives would have been much nastier, more brutish, and shorter than they probably were anyway. We’ve always been social animals. Young males have always made brief, solitary excursions on dream quests, as rites of manhood, or to meet Mormon missionary requirements, but society wants them back.

4) That said, it is evident that the roving solitary caveman is a foundation myth of our species, as Hollywood has known since its own beginnings (the first One Million Years B.C. was a silent film release in 1915, although it was the 1966 Hammer remake with Raquel Welch that reached epic proportions), so ethnologists ought to be looking into this.

Modern analysis assumes that men and women are intelligent and have some sense of social responsibility and order.

5) You were a college freshman, right?

I hope this is all going somewhere, or we're going to find ourselves booted from the tribe by the Alpha Blogger.

dave

One Spook said...

Dave @ 12:29 AM 10/29/07 writes:

"Some, searching for the root cause of the native monkeys’ resentment, speculated that they may have regarded the American monkeys as neo-colonialist lackeys of global capitalism subverting the indigenous culture with consumerist values– although the native monkeys stole our monkeys’ food every chance they got. Whatever the cause, others argued, it had been bad enough."

I was afraid those were the root causes. Given your monkeys' largess, did it ever occur to your leaders to establish diversity programs and provide all sorts of handouts and assistance to the native monkeys so they could all just get along?

And yes, I do understand at some level, the reasons why this mission was done ... but ours is not to reason why, right?

[News Item: The average cost of rehabilitating a seal after the Exxon Valdez oil spill in Alaska was $80,000. At a special ceremony, two of the most expensively saved animals were released back into the wild amid cheers and applause from onlookers. A minute later they were both eaten by a killer whale."]

One Spook

RalphPhelan said...

"iCab rather than Firefox?"
Only for System 9, which Firefox is no longer being updated for.

Anonymous said...

One Spook at 2:41AM - Is this a true seal/whale story? Either way. it is funny.

inman said...

Dave:

I don't understand the cryptic "5) You were a college freshman, right?"

I barely gradgeated the 8th grade.

_________________________

Also, I think you attribute too much survival skill to the solo lion,...

...and not enough defensive agility and strength to the homonid female.

Finally, as to the sexist presumption that "...late-Pleistocene hominid groups were not nurturing and irenic matriarchal societies co-existing in Edenic bliss...", God knows that this is analogous to the same aphrodisia BS that women use to drug men into marriage. "Edenic bliss" ... yeah, until right after wed-rock and the homonid heroine grunts with ...

... clean those rocks, you brute, &
... get your muddy feet off of my straw &
... stoke the fire, you mangy ape,&
... when are you gonna hunt a woolly mammoth and bring me that tusk you always promised,& finally
... no way am I gonna let those three Gronk brothers visit our cave again. Poke her party or not. They drank every bit of the porcupine blood and left elk bones all over the floor. And what was that fire made of,...the smoke made my eyes itch and all I wanted to do was eat the rest of that elk. Finally, what am I going to do with those ridiculous hand prints and animal drawings on the cave wall? Did you all grow up in a zoo?

With that ... both the younger and the older males in the group voluntarily and gladly depart, perhaps to scope out the Cro Mangon girls at the rock ridge.

One Spook said...

Anon @ 1:02 PM writes:

"One Spook at 2:41AM - Is this a true seal/whale story? Either way. it is funny."

Snopes dot com claims it is an Urban Legend ... but I agree, it is funny.

One Spook

Anonymous said...

one spook @10/12 2:41 AM

Given your monkeys' largess, did it ever occur to your leaders to establish diversity programs and provide all sorts of handouts and assistance to the native monkeys so they could all just get along?

Our monkeys had to earn their largesse. Without government or university sponsorship, the thought of handing it over to other monkeys as an entitlement never occurred to anyone.

dave

Anonymous said...

Inman @10/29 4:10 PM

"You were a college freshman, right?" was in answer to your "Modern analysis assumes that men and women are intelligent and have some sense of social responsibility and order," i.e., what are those modern analysts thinking? Nothing personal, I was there, too.

All else I concede. That female hominid you describe would turn any lion cowardly. (Still hoping to channel this discussion back to Duke), would you say that the Neanderthal genes are more dominant or recessive in homo sapiens ?

dave

inman said...

Dave @ 3:28

I think the Neandethal genes are actually neither dominant nor recessive. I posit that they are sleeper genes -- similar in concept to sleeper cells -- that every once in while awaken in homo sapiens sapiens leading to worldwide (or sometimes localized / regional) self-destructive and generally anti-social behavior. Somewhat like the seventeen year locusts, these genes are on a cycle, but one much longer than the cicada.

And bringing this full circle back to Duke, ... the development of a theory requires one to toss aside preconceived notions and sometimes even 'invent' additional facts***, looking at the three-dimensional object (or concept), not from each side as one turns it over and moves the sides like a rubik's cube, but from the inside of that three-dimensional object imagining oneself to be smaller than the atoms at its core, e.g. imagine looking at the universe as if it is actually a living being with form and intelligent substance and mankind is but a diminimus fractal image of the overall form. The great distance between objects (light years) and the size of the universe (at least trillions of miles) would, if observed at a distance of quintillions of miles or from almost-infinity would cause those billions of billions of objects in our universe to coalesce and have form. (After all, if one examines the structure of atoms, they are mostly space -- and not gluons or quarks or whatever the fundamentals of structure are. Accordingly, solid objects in our three-dimensional world are in fact, porous, permeable and perhaps ephemeral.)

And then, one can retreat from the three-dimensional object to such a distance that it becomes a microscopic allusion to what was an illusion. Suddenly, our universe becomes observable as a part of a greater (and potentially infinite) collection of other 'alternatives.'

When that completes, other dimensions are always available.

Moral: Even goofy thoughts can lead to discovery and the willingness to explore goofiness and suffer the inevitable dead ends, even sometimes self-demeaning hilarity, is a quality that is too often disparaged in the sciences. Unfortunately, the '88 have elevated goofiness to an art, a level that invites calumny and one which, I fear, will have a deleterious effect on science at Duke. (see Peter C. Agre, MD. QED.)
________________________

And to think, this all started when a Neanderthal invented the notion of 'addition." Oh, and by the way, the female homonids name was "Bitsy."
________________________


***Even so, those inventions eventually must be observable.

Anonymous said...

Inman @10/30 6:36 PM

Dude! That was trippin' awesome! I mean, it's like... like when... you know when... you can, like, stare at your fingernail for hours and you can see the whole Universe!

I think I heard Dr. Timothy "Doc" "Tim" Leary "Leary" say the same thing as you did, but as they say about the Sixties, if you can remember them you weren't there.

Follow-up on Neanderthals ("Bitsy," heh): did the discovery of fire before the invention of carbon credits precipitate the Pleistocene Ice Age?

And is this taught at Duke?

dave

inman said...

dave

(A) I did not plagiarize Dr. Leary. Any resemblence between Dr. Leary's statements, LSD and my brain in flashback mode is purely coincident.

(2) Re: Fire. If the Nanderthals had taken a vacation to Sumatra and seen the eruption of Mt. Toba, then yes, their discovery of that particular fire indeed precipitated the last ice age. However, there is no credible evidence to suggest that Neanderthals took vacations.

(#) Don't know if it's taught at Duke. I think at one time it was part of the parapsychiatric curriculum.

Anonymous said...

Inman @10/31 3:07 PM

(A) Okay, then, it was a good Dennis Hopper imitation.

(2) No Neanderthal vacations? And what do you suppose the Bering Sea "land bridge" was for?

(#) Speaking of parapsychology (or not): ...solid objects in our three-dimensional world are in fact, porous, permeable and perhaps ephemeral. Does this not describe CGM's half-dozen "something happened that night" accounts, and Nifong's case against Evans, Seligmann and Finnerty to a 't'?

I knew you'd get this thread back on point.

dave

inman said...

dave

re: (#)

yes...porous, permeable, and perhaps ephemeral...

or rather ... porous, permeable, pious, pitiful, protracted, preventable, pin-headed, political, pathetic, pliable, ...but most certainly not ephemeral ... for this blog ain'ta gonna let it go away.

Anonymous said...

... for this blog ain'ta gonna let it go away.

Ah, a true Inman: "If you've got to die, die like a damned dog with your teeth in a throat." (Cold Mountain, although I read it in Phillip Paludan's Victims first).

Your words, KC's ears.

dave