tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post1255101832770697169..comments2024-02-24T05:19:10.949-05:00Comments on Durham-in-Wonderland: Sheehan on Gellkcjohnson9http://www.blogger.com/profile/09625813296986996867noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-72086485443606186162007-12-05T07:41:00.000-05:002007-12-05T07:41:00.000-05:00Gell should have:1) declared himself bipolar2) dec...Gell should have:<BR/>1) declared himself bipolar<BR/>2) declared himself an alcoholic<BR/>3) voluntarily entered rehab<BR/><BR/>Not that the top two are true. It's just that they work so well for athletes, entertainers and politicians.machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14248016116043347912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-70586952106128995222007-12-05T07:36:00.000-05:002007-12-05T07:36:00.000-05:00You raise some interesting points. However, before...<I>You raise some interesting points. However, before shifting the burden to the prosecutor to show that Gell's prosecution was tainted by retribution and bias, I'd like to know what the true stats are re stautory rape in cases where the age difference is as severe as the Gell case.</I><BR/>Not having seen the stats on simmilar cases we really have no information at all how it compares to similar cases.<BR/>When it comes to NC prosecutors, I've reached the point I think it's completely fair to apply to them the principle of "guilty until proven innnocent," based on their past performance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-43323690732789830572007-12-04T21:26:00.000-05:002007-12-04T21:26:00.000-05:00Ralph...5:28 here. You raise some interesting poin...Ralph...5:28 here. You raise some interesting points. However, before shifting the burden to the prosecutor to show that Gell's prosecution was tainted by retribution and bias, I'd like to know what the true stats are re stautory rape in cases where the age difference is as severe as the Gell case. As a parent of a 13 year old daughter, I'd want a prosecutor to throw the book at a 28 year old man who had sex with her. Is 15/30 any different? The charges that Gell faced are class B sex offenses under NC law. Each act of stautory rape is an independent crime. The prosecutors in the Gell case could have pursued the equivalent of a life sentence given the numerous, and undisputed, acts of sex between Gell and the girl. I think he got off easy. Oops, and I forgot the cocaine possession charge!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-75648151664064347882007-12-04T19:53:00.000-05:002007-12-04T19:53:00.000-05:00Anon: The second post was one I fat-fingered some...Anon: The second post was one I fat-fingered somehow to submit the post well before I was ready (hence the two incomplete sentences and awkward structure). As it was already late at night, I neglected to try and fix it.<BR/><BR/>Statutory rape remains a he said/she said, absent DNA evidence or third party witnesses. Even so, with Gell essentially confessing, what's striking is not the guilty plea/conviction, but the extreme sentence. It does not serve the "victim," the child, their family, or the people of North Carolina. It only serves payback for the prosecutors made to look bad by Gell's decade-late acquittal. <BR/><BR/>Why did Gell feel the need to have sex with a teenager? Well, since he was wrongfully imprisoned at age 19, he probably feels his youth was stolen from him. I would. Gell is no saint, and hardly an upstanding citizen, as his rap sheet before his imprisonment or after shows, but that of course excuses nothing from the prosecution.<BR/><BR/>Were I governor, I believe I'd let Gell serve a year, then commute the sentence, or maybe just give him credit for time served on a crime he didn't commit.<BR/><BR/>Lastly, I'd say that looking at the way prosecutors closed ranks here, while it certainly doesn't begin to justify it, it might explain what's going on in Nifong's head when he's indignant that the state isn't footing his legal bill. After all, they stood up for all those OTHER rogue prosecutors, why is HE getting hung out to dry?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02110812867350647246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-78367314526896682912007-12-04T11:02:00.000-05:002007-12-04T11:02:00.000-05:00Whoops - posted version without last bit.However i...Whoops - posted version without last bit.<BR/><BR/>However it's also true that Ms. Sheehan's attempt at statistical reasoning is empty and meaningless - as is usually the case in the mass media.<BR/><BR/>Complex as the calculations can get, they are not really the hard part of statistical analysis. The hard part is asking the right question about the right data set.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-58482848468380881562007-12-04T08:19:00.000-05:002007-12-04T08:19:00.000-05:00statutory rape may be one of the EASIEST crimes to...<I>statutory rape may be one of the EASIEST crimes to prove</I><BR/>I was about to say that.<BR/><BR/>Which is one of the reasons those prosecutors whose primary concern is racking up a large number of convictions to use in their next election/performance-review love prosecuting them.<BR/><BR/>On Gell, there's the mitigating factor of the mother & "victim" not wanting to press charges, the aggravating factor of the 15 year/factor of 2 age difference, and the looming issue of Gell's having embarassed the NC legal establishment by his existence. I can't say for sure he's being treated unfairly without knowing how the above factors usually affect sentencing. <BR/><BR/>But given recent history, I do think it's arguably justified to assume his punishment is unfair until the state proves otherwise. Some actors are so undependable that they don't even rate "trust but verify."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-73576821256792315252007-12-04T05:28:00.000-05:002007-12-04T05:28:00.000-05:00To M. Bacon re your last post: statutory rape may ...To M. Bacon re your last post: statutory rape may be one of the EASIEST crimes to prove. All the state has to show is the fact of sexual interaction and the age of the girl. Consent is irrelevant. As to your defense of Gell on the grounds that both mother and daughter "pleaded with the DA to drop the charges", that, too, is irrelevant to the fact of the crime. The prosecutor has a duty to make an independent judgment on whether a case should be prosecuted. If a case lacks proper evidentiary support and the prosecutor thinks it should not go forward, should the victim and the family victim's have standing to require the prosecutor to go forward with the case? That was one of Mike Nifong's rationalizations for prosecuting an unprovable case. Finallly, even if a prosecutor should properly consider the victim's wishes in statutory rape cases such as the Gell case, shouldn't he/she then look very carefully at the reasons for the victim's position before sustituting their judgment for his?? In short, the prosecutor represents the people, not the victim or her family. If the victim was 12 and she (and her family) pleaded for a free pass for 30 year old defendant, would you still think the prosecutor should obey the vctim's wishes?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-26260522088485145782007-12-04T01:00:00.000-05:002007-12-04T01:00:00.000-05:00Er, sorry to double dip, but one response to RP.Th...Er, sorry to double dip, but one response to RP.<BR/><BR/>The singular factor about the Gell case is that neither the daughter nor the mother of the "victim" wanted to press charges. In fact both pleaded with the DA to drop the charges. Both remain close to Gell, who has shown his intention to support the child and <BR/>Rape, statutory rape, and sexual assault charges are notoriously hard to proveAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02110812867350647246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-61552953522035550292007-12-04T00:57:00.000-05:002007-12-04T00:57:00.000-05:00Johnson, it's posts like these that keep me coming...Johnson, it's posts like these that keep me coming back for updates.<BR/><BR/>As I said in the comments of <A HREF="http://bullinfull.typepad.com/bif/2007/10/the-lacrosse-ci.html#comments" REL="nofollow">this entry</A> at my place, in a very engaging exchange (for me at least) with Mr. Phelan, this is a problem statewide in North Carolina, not just in Durham. District Attorneys have no direct oversight. There's no statewide review procedure, no auditing, and rarely a reprimand for prosecutorial misconduct. The Gell cases, the Dail case, the Floyd Lee Brown case, all infuriating, but all have seen little accountability for the prosecutors. <BR/><BR/>I for one would be glad if you would turn some of you or Mr. Taylor would turn your attention to how North Carolina's oversight system is deficient in comparison to other states. I'm fully willing to pay my share in a reasonable settlement, but doing nothing but suing the pants off of Durham isn't going to solve what is being revealed as a statewide problem.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02110812867350647246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-90132139090483839622007-12-03T21:17:00.000-05:002007-12-03T21:17:00.000-05:00Good question Ralph/Good question Ralph/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-71815322505138801252007-12-03T17:13:00.000-05:002007-12-03T17:13:00.000-05:00Ralph,Great point on the 75% data. I had the same ...Ralph,<BR/>Great point on the 75% data. I had the same reaction when I first read Sheehan's column. My hunch (along with common sense) is that one would find increasingly "harsh" punishments as the age difference increases. How many 30 year old men who had sex with a 15 year old girl got a a kiss on the cheek from prosecutors?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-37518590011286863112007-12-03T16:35:00.000-05:002007-12-03T16:35:00.000-05:00The reality of "please" to "don't you dare say no"...<I>The reality of "please" to "don't you dare say no" </I><BR/>is clearly central to discussions of sexual harrassment law, date "rape" etc.<BR/><BR/>However, when debating "the wisdom of statutary rape laws" I would argue that "the appropriate age for marriage/sex in economic terms" is also relevant from the point of view of public policy, as sex has sometimes been known to result in pregnancy, with or (from a social point of view) worse yet without marriage being involved.<BR/><BR/>As to whether Gell is being overpunished because the system has a grudge against him, that's certainly quite plausible, but unless I see a more detailed breakdown of the data it's not yet proven. His punishment may be 75% percentile harsh compared to the total population, but the total population probably contains many Genarlow Wilson like 19/17 combinations. How does Gell's punishment compare to other thirty-year-olds who've had sex with fifteen year olds?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-52664787647255679182007-12-03T14:39:00.000-05:002007-12-03T14:39:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-91681698130493394102007-12-03T14:29:00.000-05:002007-12-03T14:29:00.000-05:00To Ralph We have been talking about the wisdom o...To Ralph<BR/> We have been talking about the wisdom of statutary rape laws, not the appropriate age for marriage/sex in economic terms. In this context, marriage-ability clearly refers to psychological maturity, not ones job prospects.<BR/>One coud argue that contemporary teenagers are in many cases less vulnerable and naive than earlier generations.<BR/> An irritating feature of these sorts of debates is that the range of female attitudes towards sex is often taken to be from "No! thru "maybe" to a cowed, whimpering consent. The reality of "please" to "don't you dare say no" seems to get left out of the discussion.<BR/> In Britain there has been discussion of making drunkeness of the woman an invalidation of any "consent" to have sex. Off the radar screen is prosecuting a woman for sexual assault if she is sober but the man is drunk. Why that should be so reveals a lot about stereotyping, which is not a good thing in criminal law, imho.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-44621824181636144112007-12-03T14:21:00.000-05:002007-12-03T14:21:00.000-05:00Go to one of those "Stans" - countries that end wi...Go to one of those "Stans" - countries that end with it - and see if their customs are similar to ours...<BR/><BR/>In some of them, it's a catch'n keep system: you catch your child-bride of 15 or so, take her home, and if she spends the night, she's your wife.<BR/><BR/>That's the ugly truth. <BR/><BR/>Now, in our country, it seems as if the female teachers are doing the same thing, except here it's called "catch'n release."<BR/><BR/>Gell is obviously short a few brain cells, a couple of neurons short of a full hippocampus, but his sentence is pretty obviously payback.machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14248016116043347912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-33811634131424700372007-12-03T13:57:00.000-05:002007-12-03T13:57:00.000-05:0011:33 I wonder of Warren Jetts would have been mor...11:33 I wonder of Warren Jetts would have been more sucessful in his trial, had his lawyer used that argument, when he married off the 14 year old.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-67437932107145641892007-12-03T12:43:00.000-05:002007-12-03T12:43:00.000-05:00hman said... In most times and places 15 year olds...hman said... <BR/><I>In most times and places 15 year olds have been considered marriage-able.</I><BR/><BR/>But in this time and place (an urbanized high-tech economy that has needs for a few well-educated young adults, not an army of farmhands) it is not. And the fact that it is not is well known.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-65834756231715401412007-12-03T11:33:00.000-05:002007-12-03T11:33:00.000-05:00In most times and places 15 year olds have been co...In most times and places 15 year olds have been considered marriage-able. Their partners have been called husbands (or wives) not predators. These facts are not really disputable.<BR/> If the older one in such a relationship wants to withdraw for whatever reason and the younger starts hinting that, "If you stop having sex with me, I will have you arrested and your life will be ruined" who is now the sexual predator? <BR/> It is fun and easy to make up Oprah-worthy tear jerking stories of innocence invaded and helpless victimhood. Most people get good at it because it is a great way to get what you want these days. You don't even need much truth to get started.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-68900763848498182292007-12-03T09:10:00.000-05:002007-12-03T09:10:00.000-05:00To all of the Sheehan/Gell apologists: Let's assum...To all of the Sheehan/Gell apologists: Let's assume that your 15 year old daughter comes to you one day and says, "mom, dad...I think I'm pregnant". Your head spins, your legs get weak, your daughter's life with you flashes before your eyes....you struggle to stay afoot. You think of the innocence: the picture of your daughter going off to her first day of school, the video of her 10th birthday party, the peurile screams of her and her friends at the Green Day concert celebrating her graduation from middle school (she was 14). <BR/><BR/>You regain your composure (wondering who among her 15 year old boy peers is the "father"...oh, my god!) as you anguish over how this story will unfold. You draw upon your depleting parental resourses to be strong and fair. Who were you sleeping with, honey? How did it happen? Where? When? You then question your competence as a parent. You blame yourself. Afterall, you had THE talks. You took an enlightened approach and warned you daughter of the power of 15 year old boy hormones. You explained that 15 year olds simply weren't emotionally capable of understanding or handling the profound emotional magnitude and practical consequences of sex at 15.<BR/><BR/>You probe. "Well, mom, well, dad....there was this guy. I met him at a friend's house...he was so cool, so mature..." You wince. "Mature". You ask, afraid of the answer: "how old is he, honey?" A pause...a truly pregnant pause. "Well, he is like 30 or something." Now you feel your stomach turn. You want to continue the conversation, but you also feel the nausea churning inside you. You are fighting for your soul as a parent. The anger is one which you have never felt. Stay calm, don't throw up, don't ask your neighbor to borrow his shotgun.<BR/><BR/>The details emerge. Your daughter is crying like the child she is. She begs for understanding. She wants you to leave him alone. Afterall, she said "yes". She wails: "please don't be mad...please don't blame him..it's okay...really, really okay. He's like so nice to me; it's like you just can't understand...I'm like 15, you know, almost ready to drive; don't you trust me?" <BR/><BR/>And then you hit rock bottom. You cry. You scream. You see the make-believe world you lived in just moments before vanish into a nauseating reality. You see, YOU are really the problem. You just don't "get it". 15 is the new 25 and your daughter is responsible for her own actions; besides, she probably led him on. C'mon, what's your problem? You want to send a 30 year old man to jail for simply having sex (and impregnanting) your 15 (ah, 25) year old daughter.? Grow up! It's 2007.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-79644848056886661882007-12-03T02:42:00.000-05:002007-12-03T02:42:00.000-05:005:36 here - Nothing surprises me and I am certainl...5:36 here - Nothing surprises me and I am certainly familiar with the reality that 30 year olds having sex with 15 year olds is illegal and against the law. I saw "LOlita" too. The female teachers preying on male students under the age of consent is just as bad. What say you???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-11715506729290026562007-12-02T21:26:00.000-05:002007-12-02T21:26:00.000-05:00Newspaper editors and others who ponder the declin...Newspaper editors and others who ponder the decline in newspaper circulation point to a number of factors: the increasingly busy American lifestyle; the profusion of news from other sources online, over the air and on cable; a decline in civic engagement and corresponding decline in interest in public affairs.<BR/><BR/>All true, along with, our critics would no doubt add, a host of newspaper flaws and imperfections real or perceived.<BR/><BR/>But recently came a new report that suggests yet another reason.<BR/><BR/>Americans simply are reading less.<BR/>____________________________<BR/><BR/>Americans (we trust) are able to obtaib news from various sources - MSM being one of many sources. <BR/><BR/> IF B Ashley has any hope of continuing readership, he must 1)offer the true story (and background) without editorializing or injecting his/reporters personal views; 2) IDENTIFY all sources for all stories ; 3) acknowledge any prejudices about stories (frequent advertisers, local 'heavyweight' constiuents - City of Durham, Duke, Durahm County, etc); 4) above all be HONEST.<BR/><BR/>If B Ashley, as editor of HS is required to all above, we can say good-bye to him, and HS now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-55557622341703152872007-12-02T20:36:00.000-05:002007-12-02T20:36:00.000-05:00To 5:36 Sexist bigot. You apparently cannot ima...To 5:36<BR/> Sexist bigot. You apparently cannot imagine a 15 year old girl being the aggressor, she must be a "victim" of the guy. Automatically. <BR/> We know that such robot-mindedness saves time and reduces the wear and tear of the brain caused by processing extra information but there is a cost. The cost is that reality will constantly surprise you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-37641768493057119642007-12-02T17:36:00.000-05:002007-12-02T17:36:00.000-05:00I think making excuses for a pedophile beats anyth...I think making excuses for a pedophile beats anything Janet Reno did. Too bad the 15 year old, Gell preyed upon did not "get lucky".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-58785769253232133462007-12-02T11:59:00.000-05:002007-12-02T11:59:00.000-05:00CHRIS DAVIS, HARVARD '73re:sexual prosecution malf...CHRIS DAVIS, HARVARD '73<BR/><BR/>re:sexual prosecution malfeasance, nothing beats Janet Reno's whirlwind performance as the DA of Miami-Dade during the eighties.<BR/>Try googling "RENO - SEX CASES - MIAMI DADE - FUSTER" and have a read. Mr. Gell got lucky -- he didn't get multiple life terms and have Laurie Bruckheimer make an agit-prop pseudo-doumentary about himm.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-81705924915083065942007-12-02T11:12:00.000-05:002007-12-02T11:12:00.000-05:00Ashley's Sunday diary entry:The way we read is cha...Ashley's Sunday diary entry:<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>The way we read is changing<BR/><BR/> Dec 2, 2007<BR/><BR/>Newspaper editors and others who ponder the decline in newspaper circulation point to a number of factors: the increasingly busy American lifestyle; the profusion of news from other sources online, over the air and on cable; a decline in civic engagement and corresponding decline in interest in public affairs.<BR/><BR/>All true, along with, our critics would no doubt add, a host of newspaper flaws and imperfections real or perceived.<BR/><BR/>But recently came a new report that suggests yet another reason.<BR/><BR/>Americans simply are reading less.<BR/><BR/>That, at least, was the conclusion of "To Read or Not to Read," a study concluded last month by the National Endowment for the Arts.<BR/><BR/>Not only are we reading less, the report argued, we are reading less well -- "reading comprehension skills are eroding."<BR/><BR/>The decline in reading seems most pronounced among teenagers and young adults, the report said.<BR/><BR/>"Although there has been measurable progress in recent years in reading ability at the elementary school level, all progress appears to halt as children enter their teenage years," NEA chairman Dana Gioia wrote in a preface to the report. "There is a general decline in reading among teenage and adult Americans. Most alarming, both reading ability and the habit of regular reading have greatly declined among college graduates."<BR/><BR/>Almost immediately, critics questioned the NEA findings.<BR/><BR/>Matthew Kirschenbaum, writing in The Chronicle of Higher Education, suggested that the NEA data, while factually correct, failed to take into account the ways in which what we think of as reading are changing. "Clearly, the report comes to us at a moment when reading and conversations about reading are in a state of flux," wrote Kirschenbaum, an associate professor of English and associate director of the Maryland Institute for Technology in the Humanities at the University of Maryland.<BR/><BR/>" 'To Read or Not to Read' is not an elegy for the bygone days of print culture," Gioia wrote.<BR/><BR/>Kirschenbaum isn't sure. He acknowledged that "the authors of the report repeatedly emphasize that they include online reading in their data," but contended "the report sounds most clumsy and out of touch when referring to new media."<BR/><BR/>"Reading your friend's blog is not likely a replacement for reading Proust," he wrote, "but some blogs have been a venue for extraordinary writing."<BR/><BR/>Other data tend to paint a brighter picture of our reading habits -- and to reflect the changing ways in which we read or at least absorb information once accessible only or mostly on printed pages.<BR/><BR/>Just last week, the Association of American Publishers reported that book sales in September were up 5.7 percent over the same month last year. In 2007 so far, book sales are up almost 10 percent over 2006.<BR/><BR/>Some of the largest sales gains were for audio books, up 40 percent so far this year. I'm not sure how the NEA study would classify an audio book experience. But it seems absorbing a book while cruising I-40 and listening has its merits.<BR/><BR/>While Gioia observed a "general decline in reading among teenage and adult Americans," AAP President Pat Schroeder pointed in a news release to strong sales gains in the young-adult category. "Teenagers and young adults will read books that are relevant to their lives, that can help them understand and deal with tough questions," Schroeder, a former congresswoman, said in the release.<BR/><BR/>The NEA data showed that the percentage of youngsters reading declines as they move through the teen years.<BR/><BR/>Given Schroeder's remarks, one wonders whether today's school curricula may discourage readers.<BR/><BR/>Academic success and career success correlate to reading habits. Employers, the NEA report noted, "rank reading and writing as top deficiencies in new hires." Moreover, "good readers generally have more financially rewarding jobs."<BR/><BR/>That should be enough to conclude the stakes are high.<BR/><BR/>The NEA report is available on-line at http://www.nea.gov/research/ToRead.pdf.<BR/><BR/>Bob Ashley is editor of The Herald-Sun.</I>Debrahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567454727276881424noreply@blogger.com