tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post3407334768293921670..comments2024-02-24T05:19:10.949-05:00Comments on Durham-in-Wonderland: Credentialskcjohnson9http://www.blogger.com/profile/09625813296986996867noreply@blogger.comBlogger250125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-71720005933210767582007-08-30T22:05:00.000-04:002007-08-30T22:05:00.000-04:00To Hamilton--You're so generous.To be mentioned al...To Hamilton--<BR/><BR/>You're so generous.<BR/><BR/>To be mentioned alongside KC......luscious!<BR/><BR/>:>)Debrahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567454727276881424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-91299017316215214252007-08-30T21:30:00.000-04:002007-08-30T21:30:00.000-04:00Thanks, Divah. Btw, I think most of the criticism...Thanks, Divah. Btw, I think most of the criticism directed your way has its origin in the same thing that has been directed at KC in the past: Neither of you seem to suffer fools gladly. "Uncollegial", you are. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-2914402724922215132007-08-30T20:45:00.000-04:002007-08-30T20:45:00.000-04:00Hamilton--You have just raised a question for whic...Hamilton--You have just raised a question for which they are not prepared, and are not honest enough, to answer. They had rather remain inside their insular huts, living off other people's money, and attacking anyone who questions them.Debrahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567454727276881424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-89581405507148886732007-08-30T20:34:00.000-04:002007-08-30T20:34:00.000-04:00Stray Historian says...The trinity of race, class,...<I>Stray Historian says...<BR/><BR/>The trinity of race, class, and gender puts off a lot of people, apparently, but it is a good way to study a numerous power and social issues and how attitudes have changed over time, for example: <B>attitudes toward lesbian behavior in prison, toward "public" sex, toward what constitutes "masculine" or "feminine," toward "independent" women (in the sense of "unmarried), toward prostitutes/ion (male and female), toward homosexuality,</B> and on and on. These are topics are also of interest to some legal and constitutional historians. We just focus on them differently. </I><BR/><BR/>What do these subjects have in common? Well, first, small audiences: societal attitudes toward lesbians in prison? Who's going to read that monograph? Not even lesbians in prison. Maybe prison guards on their smoke breaks?<BR/><BR/>Second, isn't there a Leftist bent to them? How about an academic study of societal attitudes towards, say, "romantically-and-procreatively partnered" women (in the sense of "married"), toward young people who choose long-term virginity or abstinence, toward male-led families? <BR/><BR/>I think the academy today is anything <B>but</B> honest and tolerant. Hey, prove me wrong: Given all awareness this Lax case has raised through the race, class, gender prism, I dare you to propose a class or a academic study of why white men so infrequently rape black women. You have to admit, it's a damned timely topic and might actually be of some use to more than a few hundred people.<BR/><BR/>R.R. HamiltonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-4280495011323422702007-08-30T18:23:00.000-04:002007-08-30T18:23:00.000-04:00"So it's civil, but also deep into Creationism Ter...<I>"So it's civil, but also deep into Creationism Territory. People believe what they want to believe, and at some juncture there's not much more to be said."</I><BR/><BR/>So true.<BR/><BR/>Which is why KC's blog is far more popular and superior in the accomplishment of reality-based discussion.<BR/><BR/>Those other blogs are fine if you have time on your hands and nothing else to do, but there is no hard-hitting analysis as KC has done here.<BR/><BR/>Bright, clean, brilliant, and crystal clear <I>truth</I>.<BR/><BR/>That's why KC is a <I>Prince</I>!Debrahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567454727276881424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-72402502297129154312007-08-30T18:11:00.000-04:002007-08-30T18:11:00.000-04:00To 3:42PM--I just love it when you talk dirty.LIS!...To 3:42PM--<BR/><BR/>I just love it when you talk <I>dirty</I>.<BR/><BR/>LIS!Debrahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567454727276881424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-8170172320746772132007-08-30T17:40:00.000-04:002007-08-30T17:40:00.000-04:00AA 3:18pm --> I actually find the discourse [on SE...AA 3:18pm --<BR/><BR/>> I actually find the discourse [on SEK's blog] rather more gentle than on KC Johnson's blog.<BR/><BR/>I agree. But then there are, alas, different flavors of "consensus." If you delve into the comments of Scott's latest post on KC Johnson ("Horowitzian"), you'll find a denial that the Listening Statement had much to do with the Lacrosse stripper party, followed by my cut-and-paste that shows the bad acts of that statement quite unambiguously.<BR/><BR/>Quite unambiguously <I>in my opinion</I>, that is, as other commenters offer improbable and in some cases false constructions in attempts to argue that the L.S.'s words must have been something other than what they were. Accompanied with snark about deficiencies in reading comprehension.<BR/><BR/>So it's civil, but also deep into Creationism Territory. People believe what they want to believe, and at some juncture there's not much more to be said. In this case, as an outsider, the desired insider outcome appears to be to find a way to not condemn the behavior of the ~66 tenure track faculty who signed and then wouldn't back down, because to do otherwise leads from question to question...<BR/><BR/>> I disagree with you & Ralph Phelan<BR/><BR/>Often enough, I find myself in disagreement with Ralph Phelan, but I'm in accord with the sentiments he expresses here.<BR/><BR/>He makes a good point, which I'd extend: it is not so much that a seemingly arcane monograph looks to be jargony and low in value. I've done work in an arcane specialty, so I understand that a performance that is both important and elegant can look indistinguisable from the trite and hackneyed, to the generalist. <BR/><BR/>In cell and molecular biology, you could have a fair amount of faith that the members of that community have some shared understanding as to why one manuscript wound up in <I>Cell</I> and another in an unrefereed online repository. Progress in the field--in, say, understanding the role of small RNAs in stem cell differentiation, or in developing drought-resistant maize or new cancer therapies--is connected to these judgments. Per Feynmann, if you had the time and interest, you and I could sit down and work through a great deal of them.<BR/><BR/>Ralph and I are doubting that the equivalent processes are functioning properly in swathes of the humanities in the modern American Academy. The chastening analogy would be the haute couture industry: this year's "progress" in hemlines is what the experts in Paris, New York, and Milan say it is, provided only that high-end customers of Marks & Spencer's, Macy's, and Le Printemps are willing to accept the designers' decrees.<BR/><BR/>Suppose, say, that studiers of military affairs thought it would be more important to tease out gender issues than to apply and refine (or rebut) the insights of a Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, von Clausewitz, or Mahan. I'd take that as evidence that the specialty's priorities are set more by fashion and less by 'quality' considerations that have relevance to the world outside the ivied gates.<BR/><BR/>Which brings us back to Sokal and <I>Social Text.</I>AMachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08872008617279528583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-75977056788695054952007-08-30T16:09:00.000-04:002007-08-30T16:09:00.000-04:00'(As an aside: I think you make too much of the "h...'(As an aside: I think you make too much of the "hated white male European hegemon.")'<BR/><BR/>Ummm, what was this blog about again? Something that happened to some rich white males, partially contributed to be people who frequently write in a way that indicates they don't like rich white males?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-74992488167218924582007-08-30T16:07:00.000-04:002007-08-30T16:07:00.000-04:00"I think the study of the sexual practices of exti..."I think the study of the sexual practices of extinct/earlier societies might be useful. "<BR/><BR/>And Amac and I would both agree that it is useful <B>if done well</B>.<BR/><BR/>The complaint was about <BR/>"an academic who loathes the conventional mores of contemporary US society on, say, sex, and chooses to do an in-depth analysis of beliefs relating to sex of an extinct, preliterate culture, applying literary rather than historiographic methods to discover that all manner of blessedly Arcadian beliefs and practices flourished there. That is, before the practices were crushed by the hated white male European hegemon."<BR/><BR/>I.e. politically motivated bullshit, which is <B>not</B> useful. The presence of such work is not only useless, but actively harmful. If the above hypothetical paper is published in the same journal as your hypothetical well done study, and I encounter the bad one first, I'll <B>never read</B> the second one, as I'll have thrown the whole journal in the trash after the first or second paragraph. Tastes differ, so stuff I find trivial in achievement or uninteresting in subject I will skip over. But stuff that's obviously wrong calls into question the quality of all its neighbors. If the editors are not screening out bullshit for me, I might as be reading random rantings on the web. The trust that I am dealing with serious people working in good faith is broken. And once again I come around to the fact that while M.I.T.'s idea of a rock star is Steven Pinker, Duke's idea of a rock star is Stanley Fish....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-80633408492916537482007-08-30T15:53:00.000-04:002007-08-30T15:53:00.000-04:00AA"I disagree with you & Ralph Phelan that as a wh...AA<BR/><BR/>"I disagree with you & Ralph Phelan that as a whole those subspecialties (which are?) "tolerate an unually high amount of bad (either incorrect of flat-out meaningless) scholarship"<BR/>Then why wasn't Social Text laughed out of existence and its editors laughed out of academia after the Sokal affair? <BR/><BR/>Anyone who has treated Stanley Fish or Andrew Ross as a serious scholar since May 24, 1996 has a much higher tolerance for bullshit than I do.<BR/><BR/>This would appear to encompass much of "cultural studies" and much of Duke. And so once again, we come back to the question of whether a tolerance for bullshit and lies is a personality factor that increases the probablity one will join a lynch mob should the opportunity arise. It's certainly a plausible hypothesis.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-32925945448557885862007-08-30T15:42:00.000-04:002007-08-30T15:42:00.000-04:00Debrah said:"You have just made my points for me."...Debrah said:<BR/><BR/>"You have just made my points for me."<BR/><BR/>Then said:<BR/>"....contemplating the strange....."<BR/>I beieve you misunderstood my point. It wasn't a complaint about "cultivating the strange." It was a complaint about doing it badly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-44971935600672878972007-08-30T15:18:00.000-04:002007-08-30T15:18:00.000-04:00AMac,I think the study of the sexual practices of ...AMac,<BR/><BR/>I think the study of the sexual practices of extinct/earlier societies might be useful. For example, if it demonstrated that some societies accepted single-sex behavior as normative or that a social structure was matriarchal, the study would also show that some of what we accept today as "normal" is constructed. I don't think this has a great deal to do with white males, dead or alive...(As an aside: I think you make too much of the "hated white male European hegemon.")<BR/><BR/>I haven't read SEK's blog much, but I actually find the discourse rather more gentle than on KC Johnson's blog.<BR/><BR/>I don't know what some subspecialties "get more attention then they deserve," but frankly, the academic pie is fairly small and much fought over. I know at my state university, many of the interdisciplinary programs are v. underfunded as are the humanities, in general.<BR/><BR/>I disagree with you & Ralph Phelan that as a whole those subspecialties (which are?) "tolerate an unually high amount of bad (either incorrect of flat-out meaningless) scholarship," that this claim is "pretty strongly grounded in evidence." What evidence? I am certain that at least some people believe that. <BR/><BR/>My experience with Women's Studies, Gender Studies, and GLTB Studies says that this is not the case. I can't speak for Latino, Asian, Black or any other Studies because I've never been associated with these fields. I suspect that I would not make a blanket statement about what they produce.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes, it takes awhile to get used to new ideas & to recognize their value. This may be the case with some of the disciplines some of the people here are dismissing. I don't know; I simply raise the possibility. <BR/><BR/>AAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-5432279831159188222007-08-30T14:51:00.000-04:002007-08-30T14:51:00.000-04:00An Academic 11:15am, Stray Historian 1:23pm, and A...An Academic 11:15am, Stray Historian 1:23pm, and Anon 1:47pm -- <BR/><BR/>Many thanks for your comments. <BR/><BR/>Re: race, class, and gender, I've mentioned that these must obviously be focuses of study of many events and developments. Respective examples of the Civil War, Bolshevism, Suffrage, from a very long list.<BR/><BR/>There is still the portrait of an academic who loathes the conventional mores of contemporary US society on, say, sex, and chooses to do an in-depth analysis of beliefs relating to sex of an extinct, preliterate culture, applying literary rather than historiographic methods to discover that all manner of blessedly Arcadian beliefs and practices flourished there. That is, before the practices were crushed by the hated white male European hegemon.<BR/><BR/>A distant mirror.<BR/><BR/>How does this relate to DUP? Well, the particular instance does not. Would turning the pages of a random sample of DUP titles reveal this sort of scholarship to be common or rare? I don't know. If there is a compelling argument to be made that such work is, indeed, important (and for that matter, falsifiable), are DUP texts the places to make this discovery? I'd hope so, but, again, I don't know. For me, the question will have to wait for another day.<BR/><BR/>On blog comments: they obviously mean different things to different people. (Hey--a fit subject for a race/class/gender based Culture Studies monograph!) In one sense, there's no happy medium. For instance, the Regulars at Acephalous seem to have their own problems with consideration of The Other, be it in the form of a strange person or an uncomfortable idea. <BR/><BR/>What I value most in comments was expressed by Feynmann: the indication that something in the argument is false, or in error, or wrongly formulated. Then there is often useful additional information and perspectives, often as links. And it's always nice to encounter writing that prompts a chuckle. "Community" doesn't mean so much to me, as something of a loner, and as somebody who is aware that I'm typing and staring at a screen, rather than joshing with friends at a real-life "Cheers."<BR/><BR/>Obviously, other people at various blogs have different ideas on the subject.<BR/><BR/>Seeing Ralph Phelan's 2:09pm comment --<BR/><BR/>"<I>the claim that in academia as a whole those subspecialties get more attention than they deserve is at least plausible.<BR/><BR/>"the claim that in academia as a whole those subspecialties tolerate an unusually high amount of bad (either incorrect or flat-out meaningless) scholarship is also pretty strongly grounded in evidence.</I>"<BR/><BR/>I agree, from what I've read.AMachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08872008617279528583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-42181474980872439772007-08-30T14:49:00.000-04:002007-08-30T14:49:00.000-04:00I wonder....contemplating the strange.....if I wan...I wonder....<I>contemplating the strange</I>.....if I wanted to write a few books on the positions I like to assume during sex, or how often I like it, or what rooms I most often have it in, or what time of day or night I find <I>best</I>....<BR/><BR/>.....could someone make this a course of study at universities everywhere?<BR/><BR/>Would we bask in its brazen <I>culture</I>?<BR/><BR/>Huh?Debrahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567454727276881424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-83170581337097072882007-08-30T14:32:00.000-04:002007-08-30T14:32:00.000-04:00"It can be historicized."This is an example of why...<I>"It can be historicized."<BR/><BR/>This is an example of why I question the value of "cultural studies" - the use of sledgehammers to smash gnats. The connection doesn't have to be "historicized." It's a blazingly obvious matter of convenience.</I><BR/><BR/>Dear Ralph--<BR/><BR/>You have just made my points for me.<BR/><BR/>Which is why I chose to make a joke out of this unadulterated BS.<BR/><BR/>The fact that you entertain it with a straight face makes you quite a whiplash victim.<BR/><BR/>:>)Debrahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567454727276881424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-35785816669179152582007-08-30T14:24:00.000-04:002007-08-30T14:24:00.000-04:00"And, of course, there's a reason for the connecti...<I>"And, of course, there's a reason for the connection between gay sex & public toilets. It can be historicized."</I><BR/><BR/>ROTFLM-T's-O !!!<BR/><BR/>You'll please pardon me. The Diva didn't major in subjects like that. I mostly did drama and music.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the update!Debrahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567454727276881424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-88818420910893519972007-08-30T14:13:00.000-04:002007-08-30T14:13:00.000-04:00"And, of course, there's a reason for the connecti..."And, of course, there's a reason for the connection between gay sex & public toilets. It can be historicized."<BR/><BR/>This is an example of why I question the value of "cultural studies" - the use of sledgehammers to smash gnats. The connection doesn't have to be "historicized." It's a blazingly obvious matter of convenience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-77352191549641505172007-08-30T14:09:00.000-04:002007-08-30T14:09:00.000-04:00stray historian:"I am disturbed at the attacks on ...stray historian:<BR/><BR/>"I am disturbed at the attacks on DUP because I think it is a good press. I would be proud to publish there."<BR/><BR/>Even after the Social Text/Sokal hoax? Coming out of the sciences as I do I find that incomprehensible. <BR/><BR/>We won't waste our time on a source that may or may not be bullshit. Editors and publishers are supposed to screen the bullshit out for us. If they don't, they're not doing their job, and we'll take our business elsewhere.<BR/><BR/>The claim that all race/class/gender studies is useless is of course wrong.<BR/><BR/>But the claim that in academia as a whole those subspecialties get more attention than they deserve is at least plausible.<BR/><BR/>I'd say the claim that at Duke those subspecialties get more attention than they deserve is self-evident.<BR/><BR/>I'd say the claim that in academia as a whole those subspecialties tolerate an unusually high amount of bad (either incorrect or flat-out meaningless) scholarship is also pretty strongly grounded in evidence.<BR/><BR/>Do you disagree with any of the above?<BR/><BR/>"You'll notice that Debrah chimed in immediately with what I consider an infantile comment"<BR/>So ignore her, she'll go away.<BR/><BR/>"If I posted at SEK, what I'd have to say would be of little surprise to the readers!!!"<BR/>And wouldn't that be boring?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-43939719746373373122007-08-30T13:47:00.000-04:002007-08-30T13:47:00.000-04:00AMac at 12:15, You'll notice that Debrah chimed in...AMac at 12:15, You'll notice that Debrah chimed in immediately with what I consider an infantile comment when I tried to carry on a serious adult conversation with you. <BR/><BR/>Although I'm not in Cultural Studies, I suppose I could be classed as a fellow traveler. And, I would be happy to make arguments in favor of said area of study, but not on this list, where I'd have to contend with the smarmy, infantile comments of ankle biters (in the rug rat/house monkey/yard ape/curtain climber sense) like Debrah.<BR/><BR/>If I posted at SEK, what I'd have to say would be of little surprise to the readers!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-14996389759084182832007-08-30T13:41:00.000-04:002007-08-30T13:41:00.000-04:00Debs, doll, you just don't get it, do you? Not ev...Debs, doll, you just don't get it, do you? Not everyone thinks (or not) like you. You remind me of a ten year old boy who giggles at dirty jokes.<BR/><BR/>And, of course, there's a reason for the connection between gay sex & public toilets. It can be historicized.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-37253768063796678022007-08-30T13:35:00.000-04:002007-08-30T13:35:00.000-04:00attitudes.......toward "public" sex....Well, we co...<I>attitudes.......toward "public" sex....</I><BR/><BR/>Well, we could just ask Larry Craig about that one.<BR/><BR/>The Gang of 88 sex and gender faction would just <I>love</I> him.<BR/><BR/>LIS!Debrahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567454727276881424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-73887875704328099832007-08-30T13:30:00.000-04:002007-08-30T13:30:00.000-04:00Correction to 1:23--The topics are also of interes...Correction to 1:23--<BR/><BR/>The topics are also of interest to...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-39151001703917913032007-08-30T13:23:00.000-04:002007-08-30T13:23:00.000-04:00AMac & Ralph Phelan,The stray academic here. I ha...AMac & Ralph Phelan,<BR/><BR/>The stray academic here. I had never looked at the DUP history section before to get an overview. I was surprised that there was so much--to my mind--straight forward Latin American and other history. I noticed, for example, a book on Brazilian history & assumed that might be the influence--I don't know--of Duke's justly famous Brazilian labor historian, John French. <BR/><BR/>I sometimes teach gender history. That's one reason I look at DUP: it has a lot of good books on the subject. These books might address topics you may not find interesting/useful, but I do & so do--at least, some of--my students. (Before people start throwing things, my undergraduates read a lot of standard/classic work in the field; my graduate students sometimes read more specialized monographs from, say, Duke.) Some of my students comment on how difficult the class is. And, it is, because they have to analyze, analyze, analyze. <BR/><BR/>The trinity of race, class, and gender puts off a lot of people, apparently, but it is a good way to study a numerous power and social issues and how attitudes have changed over time, for example: attitudes toward lesbian behavior in prison, toward "public" sex, toward what constitutes "masculine" or "feminine," toward "independent" women (in the sense of "unmarried), toward prostitutes/ion (male and female), toward homosexuality, and on and on. These are topics are also of interest to some legal and constitutional historians. We just focus on them differently. The best presses in general for gender history, in my opinion, are: Cal, Chicago, Duke, NYU, and Routledge. That being said, some of the most important work in this area has been published by other presses.<BR/><BR/>I am disturbed at the attacks on DUP because I think it is a good press. I would be proud to publish there. People whose work I know and respect have. Some of them have won prizes for their books. <BR/><BR/>The stray historianAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-72134278850043602472007-08-30T12:48:00.000-04:002007-08-30T12:48:00.000-04:00To 12:43PM--It could also be the subject of KC's n...To 12:43PM--<BR/><BR/>It could also be the subject of KC's next book.<BR/><BR/>Or it should be.Debrahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567454727276881424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-71451093965468500342007-08-30T12:43:00.000-04:002007-08-30T12:43:00.000-04:00"I think you've inadvertantly hit on an issue with..."I think you've inadvertantly hit on an issue with KC Johnson's work in the faculty profiles. He outlines their work. And, an outline can make the bad look good or the bad look worse."<BR/><BR/>This is true for any individual profile. But is there any reason to believe that such profiles sytematically make people from certain fields look worse than they are? <BR/><BR/>If not, then the <B>aggregate</B> result is still significant. Joining lynch mobs is, for whatever reason, significantly correlated both with doing race/class/gender studies and with not publishing much. I think that's interesting. <BR/><BR/>Figuring out the factor interactions and putting a numerical value on the correlations' significance would be a hell of a lot of work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com