tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post7809013355494621355..comments2024-02-24T05:19:10.949-05:00Comments on Durham-in-Wonderland: Grand Jurors Speak Outkcjohnson9http://www.blogger.com/profile/09625813296986996867noreply@blogger.comBlogger269125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-65791549131184794342007-02-07T23:58:00.000-05:002007-02-07T23:58:00.000-05:00That is but the case wasn't. We drove down south a...That is but the case wasn't. We drove down south a few years ago and stopped in downtown Atlanta to see the CNN building among other things.<BR/><BR/>I haven't been to Atlanta for quite some time before that.<BR/><BR/>I was pretty amazed at what I saw in the downtown area. Did I ever feel out of place. Someone wanted to hand me a flyer as we were walking down the street and I didn't want to accept it so he sent a few racist remarks my way.<BR/><BR/>That said, I get the feeling that law enforcement in drugs have to always be working on something; even if they make a mistake or have to lie to get past some rule there to protect constitutional rights.<BR/><BR/>I would think that there are enough bad guys out there so that they wouldn't have to make stuff up so that they could go after innocents. Maybe not on that day.<BR/><BR/>With the availability of electronic information today, they should have been able to do more research on the person before making such a tragic mistake.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11381497683202091939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-16305198191210492222007-02-07T23:04:00.000-05:002007-02-07T23:04:00.000-05:00Michael,Too funny. LOLMichael,<BR/><BR/>Too funny. LOLM. Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508934110558197375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-13641608484188475832007-02-07T20:45:00.000-05:002007-02-07T20:45:00.000-05:00re: 8:23
99.999998%re: 8:23<br /><br />99.999998%Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11381497683202091939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-30493716385302510912007-02-07T20:23:00.000-05:002007-02-07T20:23:00.000-05:00"Junnier later told federal investigators that off..."Junnier later told federal investigators that officers had lied to a magistrate judge about sending a confidential informant to Johnston's house to purchase drugs in order to get the warrant."<br /><br /><a href="http://instapundit.com/archives2/2007/02/post_2325.php">Instapundit</a><br /><br />Why did this one get noticed? The woman fired on the home invaders, before the home invaders killed her.<br /><br />As some one said up thread. Drug cases are the most prone to corruption.M. Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508934110558197375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-57231511852899079252007-02-07T13:33:00.000-05:002007-02-07T13:33:00.000-05:00I live in a state and a city that is highly 'diver...I live in a state and a city that is highly 'diverse' with my city's mayoral candidates touting their plans to reduce gang violence in all speeches and commercials. I may be more attuned to the problems of the criminal underclass, bad public schools and gang violence since it's right around the proverbial corner. My city's government [Democratic] is also woefully incompetant and corrupt; the police force seems about average for corruption given the size and demographic make up. Residents who can afford to send their children to private school here do so or they move out of our urban diverse locale once their kids get to middle school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-70890351857577780542007-02-07T13:14:00.000-05:002007-02-07T13:14:00.000-05:00> It's all proportional.
> Speeding is a problem,...> It's all proportional. <br />> Speeding is a problem, <br />> too. It contributes to <br />> accidents and higher <br />> insurance costs. I don't <br />> consider it a problem of <br />> much magnitude.<br /><br />Clearly society doesn't think that it's a problem as speed limits aren't enforced. They're enforced at some percentage higher.<br />Some people have the vehicles and skills to drive faster than others.<br /><br />Distracted driving is fast becoming<br />a major problem where I am. We recently had a kid that caused serious injuries to other people when he dropped his cell phone and caused a head-on trying to pick it up off the floor. 17-year-old kid right now in a ton of trouble.<br /><br />Kids grow up too fast today.<br /><br />He would be in far worse shape if he was drinking even though the effect may be roughly the same.<br /><br />Locally the police go after everything when an accident is involved.<br /><br />> Factually innocent people are ON <br />> OCCASION, convicted of crimes <br />> they did not commit. This is a <br />> terrible tragedy that shouldn't <br />> ever happen.<br /><br />Thanks. A good chunk of this conversation could have been avoided with that.<br /><br />> But in the scheme of things, this<br />> problem is a rare one, and is <br />> simply not deserving of the same <br />> level of attention as containing <br />> the criminal underclass, jailing <br />> violent criminals for life or, <br />> for that matter, improving how <br />> the system treats legitimate rape<br />> victims.<br /><br />I don't think that we have a strong lobby here rooting for violent criminals. Our state is one of the safest in the nation for that sort of thing. But I'd guess that it was due to the makeup of the population and the tax structure more than the level of crime enforcement.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11381497683202091939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-20475200198115900462007-02-07T12:53:00.000-05:002007-02-07T12:53:00.000-05:0011:20 AM
I don't think drugs, drug taking or dru...11:20 AM <br /><br /><i>I don't think drugs, drug taking or drug selling per se creates the violent criminal. Gangs would still exist if there was no drug money to fuel them. Whether or not they would exist at the same robust levels we have know, I don't know.</i><br /><br />If alcohol prohibition is any indication gang size ought to decline by a factor of 2X to 5X.<br /><br />Prohibition is socialism all the way. A price support mechanism for criminals.M. Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508934110558197375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-7381124577450854252007-02-07T11:56:00.000-05:002007-02-07T11:56:00.000-05:00"You are free to devote your life and resources to...<i>"You are free to devote your life and resources to the cause of those wrongly convicted of crimes when and if you find them. I prefer to devote my energy and my sympathy to the larger class of crime victims."</i><br /><br />Excellent! Now, if the police, prosecutor, judge, or any of their agents or others working on their behalf engage in wrongful, neglegient and/or criminal behavior, please note that the "good guys" are now the bad guys and the "suspect" is actually a victim (and if you are OK with everyone else being hurt by the CJS, then please feel free to consider only those "suspects" who are factually innocent.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-41034931658890154432007-02-07T11:24:00.000-05:002007-02-07T11:24:00.000-05:00The ease with which you dismiss the problems of fa...The ease with which you dismiss the problems of false convictions is quite disturbing to me.<br />------------------------------<br /><br />It's all proportional. Speeding is a problem, too. It contributes to accidents and higher insurance costs. I don't consider it a problem of much magnitude.<br /><br />Factually innocent people are ON OCCASION, convicted of crimes they did not commit. This is a terrible tragedy that shouldn't ever happen. But in the scheme of things, this problem is a rare one, and is simply not deserving of the same level of attention as containing the criminal underclass, jailing violent criminals for life or, for that matter, improving how the system treats legitimate rape victims.<br /><br />You are free to devote your life and resources to the cause of those wrongly convicted of crimes when and if you find them. I prefer to devote my energy and my sympathy to the larger class of crime victims.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-62327685634800846352007-02-07T11:20:00.000-05:002007-02-07T11:20:00.000-05:00The money is there. All we have to do is give up o...The money is there. All we have to do is give up on drug prohibition and give the problem to those best qualified to handle it. Doctors.<br />----------------------<br />I am all for ending the 'war' on drugs. <br /><br />I would also venture to guess, but I have no evidence to back it up, that it is in drug related crimes where police are most often tempted to falsify evidence. They've already got the seized guns and drugs, it is a lot easier to plant some drugs on a guy than creatively smear his DNA all over the crime scene.<br /><br />What effect ending the war on drugs and decriminalizing drug possession and drug selling would have on the criminal underclass, I can't say.<br /><br />I don't think drugs, drug taking or drug selling per se creates the violent criminal. Gangs would still exist if there was no drug money to fuel them. Whether or not they would exist at the same robust levels we have know, I don't know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-54161393961940964652007-02-07T11:19:00.000-05:002007-02-07T11:19:00.000-05:00[I'm sure he has. But that has nothing to do with ...[I'm sure he has. But that has nothing to do with the wider criminal justice system. In fact, given that Mike Nifong is on his way to sanction or disbarment, it appears that the system works.<br /><br />It also doesn't take a research survey to know that those with more resources are more likely to be acquitted WHETHER OR NOT they are guilty than those who are poor and can't afford top flight lawyers, investigators and PR people. But, that's life. Rich people also get better health care, live in safer neighborhoods and so on.<br /><br />Crime is a problem, recidivism is a problem, the criminal underclass is a problem, lenient sentences for violent crimes are a problem.<br /><br />The evidence leans heavily toward all of these problems being more predominant than the problem of false convictions of the factually innocent.<br /><br />If anything the Duke case is more representative of racial politics than it is of the malfeasance of the criminal justice system.]<br /><br />The ease with which you dismiss the problems of false convictions is quite disturbing to me. I fall into the group with assets and resources but the fact that this stuff happens is enough to jolt a comfortable life.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11381497683202091939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-71116841751339127222007-02-07T11:15:00.001-05:002007-02-07T11:15:00.001-05:00Question: do you think that Nifong has done this t...Question: do you think that Nifong has done this to poor innocents? <br />------------<br /><br />I'm sure he has. But that has nothing to do with the wider criminal justice system. In fact, given that Mike Nifong is on his way to sanction or disbarment, it appears that the system works. <br /><br />It also doesn't take a research survey to know that those with more resources are more likely to be acquitted WHETHER OR NOT they are guilty than those who are poor and can't afford top flight lawyers, investigators and PR people. But, that's life. Rich people also get better health care, live in safer neighborhoods and so on.<br /><br />Crime is a problem, recidivism is a problem, the criminal underclass is a problem, lenient sentences for violent crimes are a problem.<br /><br />The evidence leans heavily toward all of these problems being more predominant than the problem of false convictions of the factually innocent.<br /><br />If anything the Duke case is more representative of racial politics than it is of the malfeasance of the criminal justice system.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-23200698477665407732007-02-07T11:15:00.000-05:002007-02-07T11:15:00.000-05:0010:38AM,
I agree on all points but one.
The leve...10:38AM,<br /><br />I agree on all points but one.<br /><br />The level of error I'm willing to tolerate.<br /><br />I'm an aerospace kind of guy. We build the stuff so it is safer to fly than to drive. We have a system for getting this done and correcting errors in a very timely fashion. Why not a justice system held to a similar standard?<br /><br />An error is an error even if it takes a bad guy out. The quality of justice counts just as much as the quality of our airplanes. Either can take your life.<br /><br />And yeah. It is going to cost more money to do things right.<br /><br />The money is there. All we have to do is give up on drug prohibition and give the problem to those best qualified to handle it. Doctors.<br /><br />===<br /><br />Prohibition is an awful flop.<br />We like it.<br />It can't stop what it's meant to stop.<br />We like it.<br />It's left a trail of graft and slime,<br />It won't prohibit worth a dime,<br />It's filled our land with vice and crime.<br />Nevertheless, we're for it.<br /><br />Franklin P. Adams, 1931<br /><br />=============<br /><br />Isn't it time that our justice system met the quality level of our air travel system? In terms of getting you to your destination alive? I will say it would be nice if your luggage arrived with you a bit more often.<br /><br />Consider that the baggage system that goes with air travel makes about the same level of error as our justice system - in the range of 1%, and we are deeeply unhappy with that level of performance.<br /><br />We ought to apply the same standards to justice as we do to baggage delivery.M. Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508934110558197375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-10847097525905273772007-02-07T11:05:00.000-05:002007-02-07T11:05:00.000-05:00> I would hardly call an individual
> with a crimi...> I would hardly call an individual<br />> with a criminal history and known<br />> criminal associations "innocent" <br />> and I think most Americans who <br />> DONT have family members in gangs<br />> would agree with me.<br /><br />I saw a case where two people touched each other and charged each other with simple assault and it went through the system. This is basically touching someone with your finger. And they both plead to misdemeanors. So both have a criminal history. This happend outside a polling place as both were campaigning for their candidates.<br /><br />As far as the term "innocent" goes, one can apply it to the person's history or to a particular incident. They may very well be innocent of a discrete crime. If you take the approach of rounding up the usual suspects, then of course it will be most likely that they are innocent.<br /><br />> If you have a history of armed <br />> robbery or home invasion and are <br />> a known gang member living in <br />> neighborhood X, and an armed <br />> robbery or home invasion occurs I<br />> would EXPECT the police to first <br />> check in on the people in the <br />> community with a history of <br />> committing similar crimes. This <br />> isn't rough justice it's police <br />> investigation 101.<br /><br />Nice strawman. There's a lot in<br />between violent crime and parking<br />tickets. And those trying to get<br />their lives back on track don't<br />need interruptions at their place<br />of work.<br /><br />> I also think most Americans would<br />> agree with me that the problem of<br />> criminal recidivism is MUCH more <br />> significant than the "problem" of<br />> innocent people being convicted <br />> of crimes they didnt' commit.<br /><br />They change their mind when it becomes personal. Or when they can<br />relate to someone that it happens to. As in the Duke case.<br /><br />> In fact, if you look at the <br />> actual histories of MANY, but not<br />> all of the recent exonerations <br />> you will find that some of these <br />> "innocent" guys were not very <br />> nice afterall. Of course The <br />> Innocence Project doens't want <br />> the public to know that most of <br />> these 'innocent' men had long <br />> criminal histories, but they <br />> happened not to have committed <br />> the particular crime they were <br />> jailed for, THIS TIME.<br /><br />And it's okay to execute them<br />because we think that they're bad<br />guys. Please provide a link to<br />documentation on the innoncence<br />project "bad guys" report.<br /><br />> THe Duke students on the other <br />> had are truly INNOCENT in all <br />> senses. They had good records, <br />> not bad ones, they were on their <br />> way to being productive members <br />> of society, not thugs, and they <br />> are factually innocent of this <br />> crime.<br /><br />If it can happen to rich innocents,<br />it can happen to poor innocents.<br />Question: do you think that Nifong has done this to poor innocents?Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11381497683202091939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-67672549592452567172007-02-07T10:38:00.000-05:002007-02-07T10:38:00.000-05:00I would hardly call an individual with a criminal ...I would hardly call an individual with a criminal history and known criminal associations "innocent" and I think most Americans who DONT have family members in gangs would agree with me.<br /><br />If you have a history of armed robbery or home invasion and are a known gang member living in neighborhood X, and an armed robbery or home invasion occurs I would EXPECT the police to first check in on the people in the community with a history of committing similar crimes. This isn't rough justice it's police investigation 101.<br /><br />I also think most Americans would agree with me that the problem of criminal recidivism is MUCH more significant than the "problem" of innocent people being convicted of crimes they didnt' commit.<br /><br />In fact, if you look at the actual histories of MANY, but not all of the recent exonerations you will find that some of these "innocent" guys were not very nice afterall. Of course The Innocence Project doens't want the public to know that most of these 'innocent' men had long criminal histories, but they happened not to have committed the particular crime they were jailed for, THIS TIME.<br /><br />THe Duke students on the other had are truly INNOCENT in all senses. They had good records, not bad ones, they were on their way to being productive members of society, not thugs, and they are factually innocent of this crime.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-33196688793801748152007-02-07T10:36:00.000-05:002007-02-07T10:36:00.000-05:0010:02AM,
Catching on?
Rough justice is not real ...10:02AM,<br /><br />Catching on?<br /><br />Rough justice is not real justice. It is a short cut. Short cuts have consequences.<br /><br />When rough justice is the norm the innocent get no break.<br /><br />The purpose of justice is to prevent the rise of a <a href="http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2007/02/vengance.html">vendetta culture.</a> It is bad for business.<br /><br />Rough justice erases the line between guilt and innocence. It is an unwise policy.M. Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508934110558197375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-9996102519841000502007-02-07T10:30:00.000-05:002007-02-07T10:30:00.000-05:00[Good again.
How did you get to be one of the usu...[Good again.<br /><br />How did you get to be one of the ususal suspects?<br /><br />Answer: You already have a history of criminal activity and criminal associations.]<br /><br />You seem to be fine with harrassing innocents. Most would find that disgusting with respect to criminal justice. Do you work in the business?Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11381497683202091939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-91396979887943651672007-02-07T10:02:00.000-05:002007-02-07T10:02:00.000-05:00Rough justice is normally done by rounding up the ...Rough justice is normally done by rounding up the usual suspects.<br />------------------------------<br /><br />Good again. <br /><br />How did you get to be one of the ususal suspects? <br /><br />Answer: You already have a history of criminal activity and criminal associations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-16294997113135100862007-02-07T10:01:00.000-05:002007-02-07T10:01:00.000-05:00[Good. I am tired of seeing these wailing welfare ...[Good. I am tired of seeing these wailing welfare mothers on TV claiming that their "baby" is innocent of all charges. Let her mortgage her house to try and keep her thug son out of jail.]<br /><br />These people make babies at a faster rate than the productive class or demographics can be a nightmare. I guess you want the whole country to look like South Central and Durham.<br /><br />I don't get the desire to kill families via the criminal justice system to create a bigger and bigger underclass but I guess it provides jobs for those that feed off that system.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11381497683202091939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-2239026229730033682007-02-07T09:59:00.000-05:002007-02-07T09:59:00.000-05:00Rough justice is normally done by rounding up the ...Rough justice is normally done by rounding up the usual suspects. The people no one cares about if a mistake is made per 9:12AM. <br /><br />However, when it becomes a habit and the race and class boundaries are breeched there is hell to pay.<br /><br />Here is what Graham Greene has to say about who can be given rough justice and torture in his novel of the cold war "OUR MAN IN HAVANA":<br /><br /><i> "The poor in my own country, in any Latin American country. The poor of Central Europe and the Orient. Of course in your welfare states you have no poor, so you are untorturable. In Cuba the police can deal as harshly as they like with emigres from Latin America and the Baltic States, but not with visitors from your country or Scandinavia. It is an instinctive matter on both sides. Catholics are more torturable than Protestants, just as they are more criminal.</i><br /><br /><a href="http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2005/02/biggest-cover-up-of-all.html">The Biggest Cover Up Of All</a><br /><br />He goes on in that section of the book to decry the crossing of boundaries.<br /><br />=====================<br /><br />The sad thing is that bad blacks in our society and bad Mexicans are torturable. They know it the police know it and the Angy Studies folk live for it.M. Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508934110558197375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-35791813775165344292007-02-07T09:41:00.000-05:002007-02-07T09:41:00.000-05:00The impact is not only to the person but also thei...The impact is not only to the person but also their family and their extended family.<br />----------------------------<br /><br />Good. I am tired of seeing these wailing welfare mothers on TV claiming that their "baby" is innocent of all charges. Let her mortgage her house to try and keep her thug son out of jail.<br /><br />The ONLY instances where I would agree that "rough justice" is an unfair use of the system would be drug relates crimes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-51414181361507524582007-02-07T09:39:00.000-05:002007-02-07T09:39:00.000-05:009:12 AM
"The Duke case is an abberition on just ab...9:12 AM<br /><i>"The Duke case is an abberition on just about every count and using this case,this complaining witness, this police force and this DA to indict the whole system is not logical."</i><br /><br />Again, strawman argument pertaining to <i>"indict the whole system"</i>. Rough Justice includes people who are factually innocent. The US Constitution goes to great lengths in it's effort to prevent or limit abuse in all cases.<br /><br />BTW, "many" and "common" are not words of fact, they are descriptive. It tends to be greater when it affects you, lesser when it doesn't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-80828565954622629522007-02-07T09:28:00.000-05:002007-02-07T09:28:00.000-05:00[As for rough justice? When most violent criminals...[As for rough justice? When most violent criminals are just that, violent criminals with long arrest and conviction records, records of commiting violent crimes and pleading down to lesser charges, WHO CARES???? I don't. I don't think rough justice can work for the crimnal underclass. But if it does, if it brings more pain to the families of those who bring pain to others, bring it on. I applaud it.]<br /><br />The impact is not only to the person but also their family and their extended family.<br /><br />The example of rough justice given here by a lawyer a few days ago didn't sound like it was about a violent criminal. I suppose that you comfort yourself with rough justice only being dealt to violent criminals.<br /><br />As has been said, it's only someone elses problem. Until it isn't.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11381497683202091939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-30932397857622171882007-02-07T09:12:00.000-05:002007-02-07T09:12:00.000-05:00Aren't you the same two who don't believe there is...Aren't you the same two who don't believe there is evidence that global warming is caused by man?<br /><br />Sounds like you believe what you want to believe and you cherry pick your facts to suit whatever it is you believe, whether that is that "many" people are in prison who are factually innocent, false rape complaints are "common" or the ACLU "hates" America.<br /><br />As for rough justice? When most violent criminals are just that, violent criminals with long arrest and conviction records, records of commiting violent crimes and pleading down to lesser charges, WHO CARES???? I don't. I don't think rough justice can work for the crimnal underclass. But if it does, if it brings more pain to the families of those who bring pain to others, bring it on. I applaud it.<br /><br />The Duke case is an abberition on just about every count and using this case,this complaining witness, this police force and this DA to indict the whole system is not logical.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-18457079352530903202007-02-06T23:35:00.000-05:002007-02-06T23:35:00.000-05:006:48 Pm
"But there simply aren't any facts that co...6:48 Pm<br /><i>"But there simply aren't any facts that come close to proving your contention that wrongful convictions are anything but an anomoly or that it is common or routine for innocent people to plead guilty in felony cases."</i><br /><br />Strawman argument again. Nobody is saying that it is common or routine. Just that rough justice is a problem. It starts at the level of the local police, and works it's way through the court system. You don't want a part of it. Some police do lie on occasion. Some police routinely. Some prosecutors are occasionally unethical. Some are more frequently unethical. Some judges are unethical on occasion.<br /><br />The result is that many factually innocent (<i>not most</i>) people experience rough justice (<i>not routinely</i>) in the form of accusation, investigation, indictment, trial, public humilation, and loss of income, home, savings, friends. We don't even have to count the falsely incarcerated.<br /><br />It's like leprosy. It doesn't really happen, and even if it does, it certainly doesn't matter (<i>to you</i>). But dude, if it ever comes close to your life, it will disgust you.<br /><br />But remember, the US Constitution tries really hard to protect people from false accusation and it's horrendous consequences because it is that important.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com