tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post8070515093522441760..comments2024-02-24T05:19:10.949-05:00Comments on Durham-in-Wonderland: Reflections on the Civil Suitkcjohnson9http://www.blogger.com/profile/09625813296986996867noreply@blogger.comBlogger134125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-40051231602551477972007-10-17T16:01:00.000-04:002007-10-17T16:01:00.000-04:00The Nifong immunity issue in the LAX players’ suit...The Nifong immunity issue in the LAX players’ suit may well head to the Supreme Court because as of 2005 there is a conflict among the circuits on the extent of the immunity available to prosecutors for acts performed outside of the strict litigation advocacy function. <BR/><BR/>In Buckley v. Fitzsimmons, 509 U.S. 259, 268–69 (1993) only qualified immunity was available to a prosecutor who conspired with police to fabricate evidence during the preliminary investigation of a highly publicized rape and murder. As the Court concluded, “[The defendants’] mission at that time was entirely investigative in character. A prosecutor neither is, nor should consider himself to be, an advocate before he has probable cause to have anyone arrested.” <BR/><BR/>The Court rejected the contention that a prosecutor may shield his investigative misconduct by presenting fabricated evidence to a grand jury or introducing it at trial because “every prosecutor might then shield himself from liability for any constitutional wrong against innocent citizens by ensuring that they go to trial.” <BR/>The Court acknowledged that even after probable cause is met, the prosecutor is not necessarily entitled to absolute immunity. <BR/><BR/>As the Court explained, “Even after that determination . . . a prosecutor may engage in ‘police investigative work’ that is entitled to only qualified immunity.”<BR/><BR/>This would seem like a pretty clear Buckley v. Fitzsimmons case because as UPI points out, Nifong took over the police investigation when it was about to be dropped. <BR/><BR/>But it is still not clear whether absolute or only qualified immunity applies when a prosecutor introduces tainted evidence (as Nifong likely did at the Grand Jury) which previously been procured during the investigatory phase of the prosecution. <BR/><BR/>The Third Circuit has held that absolute immunity applies, while the Second and Ninth Circuits have held that only qualified immunity applies. North Carolina is in the 4th Circuit, a pretty conservative court. I don’t know if the 4th Circuit has a rule on the question.<BR/><BR/>Quoted in many places from a good article by Margaret Z. Johns, Reconsidering Absolute Prosecutorial Immunity BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY LAW REVIEW (2005).Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02893923908095290522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-19548899170999316262007-10-16T14:59:00.000-04:002007-10-16T14:59:00.000-04:00Important read here:http://sports-law.blogspot.com...Important read here:<BR/><BR/>http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2007/10/thoughts-on-duke-lacrosse-case.html<BR/><BR/>Basically, a respected blogger finds huge problems with the case but thinks it'll settle "given how egregious some of the conduct described was."<BR/><BR/>I'd be curious to see KC's response.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-11652030563528665412007-10-12T08:39:00.000-04:002007-10-12T08:39:00.000-04:00IMO> There is no defense for CGM. She lied and tri...IMO> There is no defense for CGM. She lied and tried to get away with it. This whole event as some posters have stated has done great harm to rape victims of the future. All the extreme writings and doctrine created by feminists that paint all men as animals just waiting to rape women have contributed to the present use of rape accusations by woman when non occured. You reap what you sow> credibility is sorely lost when woman cry wolf too many times. I'm truly sorry for any woman who has endured a real rape. It is a crime which should be punished. But because of the extreme hatred for men behind much of the feminist position, I believe the standard of proof should be stringent, the so-called "victim" should be identified, not sheilded as the media now does. If there is truth to the accusations, it should be provable beyond a reasonable doubt. The accused becomes the vicitm too often.This case will help innocent men in the future> it will give people pause and make them question the accuser. The three lax guys were the victims. I don't feel sorry for CGM at all.She may need help, but she knew what she was doing when she tried to use a rape allegation as a tool to get rich.There is no defense for her selfish actions.If Nifong hadn't been stopped by the excellent defense team, CGM would have gladly pursued her lies in a court room and the three would be facing jail today. If feminists truly cared about women's rights, you should care when a woman tries to trample the rights of others be they other women or innocent men. You want justice for all, correct?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-91471774484417985332007-10-11T12:02:00.000-04:002007-10-11T12:02:00.000-04:00InOrOut said:"I don't deny your experience. Why de...InOrOut said:<BR/><BR/>"I don't deny your experience. Why deny anyone's experience?"<BR/><BR/>But that's exactly what you're doing, isn't it? You're denying the players' experience of being falsely accused for a crime that they didn't commit. Why are you denying <I>their</I> experience?<BR/><BR/>See, there are <I>two</I> different meanings of the word "experience" -- one is the <I>reality</I> of one's passage through the world, and one is what one <I>thinks</I> that reality was. If we are talking about the latter, then, sure, <I>why</I> deny anyone's experience? Why deny the experience of the psychotic patient perched on the mental institution's roof that if he chants the magic charm "Idaho, Idaho, Idaho" the three moon goddesses will grant him the power of flight and he will fly to the Vatican City and meet with the Pope (not Benedict, but Pius XII, who faked his death to hide from the Illuminati)? Why deny the experience of the cultist that the Exalted Master who comes from a dimension above our own has shown The Way and must be <I>right</I> when he says that ingesting massive amounts of phenobarbital and cutting off your air supply is the way to rendezvous with the alien spaceship trailing Comet Hale-Bopp?<BR/><BR/>If, however, one means "experience" in the sense of <I>real</I> experiences, they <I>can</I> and <I>should</I> be denied when the evidence shows that they <I>are not</I> real. The debunked doctrine of "recovered memories", by the way, is a notorious source of "experiences" that are not and frequently could never have been real.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-17441882390322728342007-10-11T08:40:00.000-04:002007-10-11T08:40:00.000-04:002:17 --"It will not work as she has little credibi...2:17 --<BR/><BR/>"It will not work as she has little credibility with the black community and this is because of her infamous appearance in blackface with her then boyfriend Ted Danson at a Hollywood event in which they told racial demeaning sexual jokes."<BR/><BR/>Not just any "Hollywood event", dear -- a Friars Club roast. If you don't understand what a roast is then you're too uneducated to talk about the incident and if you decided not to <I>mention</I> that it was a roast then you're too dishonest. Oh, and as far as "racial demeaning sexual jokes", since Whoopi was the star/target of the roast, she's actually in a <I>very good position</I> to distinguish between jokes that actually went too far and those that would only have been out of line <I>outside</I> the context of a roast.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-28417083932753025642007-10-11T06:37:00.000-04:002007-10-11T06:37:00.000-04:00Inorout,You do not seem familiar with the facts of...Inorout,<BR/><BR/>You do not seem familiar with the facts of this case. In fact, a large body of evidence shows that the former defendants WERE completely innocent. That is why most of us have followed this case with fervor. Ms. Mangum had a long history of acting crazy and addled in the way you described. Her friends at the strip club where she worked made that clear. Toxicology tests on her hair did not show any evidence of a date rape drug. And then there is the fairly significant matter that ultimately there was no evidence of a rape or assault of any kind. Time stamped photos, fellow dancer Kim Pittman, the medical report, DNA tests, first responders all indicate that nothing at all untoward happened to Ms. Mangum. As Roy Cooper made very plain this was not simply a case where there was not enough evidence to move forward to trial, this was a case where the evidence indicated the former defendants were completely innocent. Had it been otherwise, Mr. Cooper would have dropped the case without a declaration of innocence.<BR/><BR/>The fact that other defendants in other rape cases have used date rape drugs or claimed the alleged victim was crazy or addled is irrelevant to this case where the facts are well established. We are well beyond speculation here...come join us. <BR/><BR/>ObserverAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-69364159597355342802007-10-11T04:28:00.000-04:002007-10-11T04:28:00.000-04:00The prosecution of the lacrosse players over the c...The prosecution of the lacrosse players over the course of a full year was "one of the most chilling episodes of premeditated police, prosecutorial, and scientific<BR/>misconduct in modern American history." {snip} Book review by Thomas Sowell<BR/><BR/>The corruption still exists, and nothing has changed accept for name changes on the DA's door. The mayor, governor, police chief and every other official still runs full steam ahead. There has yet to be a Federal Investigation, and should involve numerous inditements. Firing Nifong and giving him one day of jail is pathetic.<BR/><BR/>Thank God there are some of us who are not intimidated, and will continue to speak out and fight for justice.<BR/>Rhonda Fleming<BR/>Cleveland, Ohio<BR/>Sister of Durham murder victim, whose case remains unsolvedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-54297811560198794262007-10-11T02:17:00.000-04:002007-10-11T02:17:00.000-04:00Whoopi is wrong in that Sharpton had little to do ...Whoopi is wrong in that Sharpton had little to do with the lacrosse case. She took some heat over her comments on Michael Vick,IMO and she is trying to get brownie points on this one, IMO. It will not work as she has little credibility with the black community and this is because of her infamous appearance in blackface with her then boyfriend Ted Danson at a Hollywood event in which they told racial demeaning sexual jokes. She also was fired from hosting the Oscars. If you all think that something said by this latter day Aunt Thomasina is significant, go ahead but it actually means little,IMO.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-79951249500913889172007-10-10T20:53:00.000-04:002007-10-10T20:53:00.000-04:00Is Haynie a Communist?Is Haynie a Communist?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-18104469489363960172007-10-10T20:21:00.000-04:002007-10-10T20:21:00.000-04:0010/10 3:37 concludes:Many of the groupthink poster...10/10 3:37 concludes:<BR/><BR/><I>Many of the groupthink posters are gone - they were also part of the rabid mob. This should be about debate and not insults to the posters.</I><BR/><BR/>Whaaa....? Calling commenters "groupthink posters" and "part of the rabid mob" is about debate, and not insults to the posters?<BR/><BR/>The two sentences kinda remind me of that old logic paradox:<BR/><BR/>THE FOLLOWING SENTENCE IS TRUE.<BR/>THE PRECEDING SENTENCE IS FALSE.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-70060574379019255622007-10-10T19:57:00.000-04:002007-10-10T19:57:00.000-04:00inoroutWhy are repressed memories widely acknowled...inorout<BR/><I>Why are repressed memories widely acknowledged if all victims can always remember exactly what happened?</I><BR/><BR/>Widely acknowledged? As what, pure hokum that has framed innocent people before responsible attorneys outside of your bizarro world brought some sanity to the cases on appeal. Read this closely: Real rape victims don't need lunatics like you making idiotic hypotheses about what happened to them. Go back to your coven of co-morons and try to construct an imaginary world where you're normal and everybody else is crazy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-89927605583195258482007-10-10T17:21:00.000-04:002007-10-10T17:21:00.000-04:00Anonymous 3:50"Mangum did not mention rape to the ...Anonymous 3:50<BR/><BR/>"Mangum did not mention rape to the officer, when he found her. Her stated memories represented very confused thoughts."<BR/><BR/>Indeed. I gather she was unaware of all the other men who's DNA was later identified. Perhaps they gave her date rape drugs too?<BR/><BR/>Ken<BR/>DallasAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-73348003249968955162007-10-10T17:16:00.000-04:002007-10-10T17:16:00.000-04:00Whoopie Goldberg( who I adore) calls for Al to apo...Whoopie Goldberg( who I adore) calls for Al to apologize, nineteen months after the event and is a hero. Brodhead, who apologizes one month before her, is a bum. How does this work, folks? Should we not be striving to be fair?<BR/>----------------------------------<BR/>Dear me. Brodhead is still the president of Duke. He, unlike Whoopi Goldberg, is responsible for speaking on Duke's behalf. Where Duke is concerned, Brodhead is held to a higher standard than a comedian.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-3357962585709208082007-10-10T17:05:00.000-04:002007-10-10T17:05:00.000-04:00Anonymous 10/10/07 3:37 PM ironically said both:gr...Anonymous 10/10/07 3:37 PM ironically said both:<BR/><I>groupthink posters ... rabid mob</I><BR/>and:<BR/><I>This should be about debate and not insults to the posters.</I>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-10370545620803721652007-10-10T16:42:00.000-04:002007-10-10T16:42:00.000-04:00I don't remember anyone calling Whoopi a hero. I ...I don't remember anyone calling Whoopi a hero. I do detect a lot of people who, like myself, were very pleasantly surprised.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-293105840148579112007-10-10T15:37:00.000-04:002007-10-10T15:37:00.000-04:00Whoopie Goldberg( who I adore) calls for Al to apo...Whoopie Goldberg( who I adore) calls for Al to apologize, nineteen months after the event and is a hero. Brodhead, who apologizes one month before her, is a bum. How does this work, folks? Should we not be striving to be fair? That is one of the things that seperates us from the 88. <BR/>Many of the groupthink posters are gone - they were also part of the rabid mob. This should be about debate and not insults to the posters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-78126007598099423862007-10-10T07:59:00.000-04:002007-10-10T07:59:00.000-04:00I read the complaint last night. It certainly par...I read the complaint last night. It certainly pares the thing right down to the bone. And the bones look solid, even elegant, in their stark simplicity. I doubt it will be lost on the jury--if the case does not settle--that the conduct of the criminal investigation against the plaintiffs is something the country cannot tolerate, and strong, even extreme, measures are absolutely essential to protect citizens from its recurrence in some other form. Otherwise, it will be clear to those who pay attention that gross violations of the constitutional protections we as a country "guarantee" any defendant in any criminal case are acceptable, or at least not really actionable, so long as the defendant ultimately is not convicted. Furthermore, a number of the defendants in this civil case should be charged in a federal criminal case as many here have commented. If we do not see a very significant settlement for the plaintiffs if the case settles, a very meaningful award to the plaintiffs if the case goes to trial, or criminal convictions if the US Attorney finally moves on a criminal case...God help us all.<BR/><BR/>ObserverAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-75205265060366332312007-10-10T03:50:00.000-04:002007-10-10T03:50:00.000-04:0012:37 - Please understand that I support rape surv...12:37 - Please understand that I support rape survivors. Rape is so horrible, I cannot describe it. I know survivors are very afraid they won't be believed. I know many people often do not believe them. I know rapists often have extreme ways of terrorizing them. I have done a great deal of research on rape trauma, including with counselors of rape survivors.<BR/><BR/>Being raped without being slipped a drug is different than a drug-assisted rape. Some drugs block out memory. Mangum exhibited drugged behavior that night. Attorney General Cooper's report did not mention what other reports did: that reports said men at the party gave her a drink. I will post the information I posted at the lawsuit-demands blog here, because it is important that those of us who support rape survivors know about it:<BR/><BR/>Behavior of people given drugs for rape is described here:<BR/>http://www.projectghb.org/newsletters/Archives/2003/20030415.htm#article3<BR/><BR/>Quotes: "Today’s drugs may at some point render a victim unconscious, but even worse, at least initially... the victim may appear to participate or may even appear to be the aggressor early on in the attack."<BR/><BR/>"not only is a victim disinhibited... she most likely truly will not even remember such conduct."<BR/><BR/>"many victims whose stories had remained untold out of fear and confusion or whose stories were told but disbelieved and ignored by the system. Worse yet are those whose stories were simply mishandled."<BR/><BR/>"waking up with little idea of what has taken place... leaves one confused, dazed and hesitant to run to the police."<BR/><BR/>Mangum did not mention rape to the officer, when he found her. Her stated memories represented very confused thoughts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-79982884387894159102007-10-10T03:14:00.000-04:002007-10-10T03:14:00.000-04:009:29 - please see my comment by on behavior of peo...9:29 - please see my comment by on behavior of people who've been given a date rape drug if it gets posted tomorrow at:<BR/><BR/>http://durhamwonderland.blogspot.com/2007/10/lawsuit-demands.html<BR/><BR/>Yes, some victims respond to sexual abuse by acting out sexually. Advocating for rape victims and awareness of rape trauma does not mean hating men. False reports are not common, but rape is often difficult to prove, especially if victim shows behavior consistent with date rape drugs. Here, we have an example of a case not proven, where the woman is called a "false accuser" as though people know what happened in that bathroom. At best, it's "evidence not found to support accusation." "Declared innocent" is different than "actually innocent" in a country where innocence is presumed unless guilt can be proven. You don't me, although you seem to have in mind a certain image of a woman.<BR/><BR/>JLS, 11:56 -<BR/><BR/>The lawsuit claims the police should have acted differently because they should have known the accuser's account of rape could not be considered reliable. So, there is talk about the accuser on multiple pages of the suit. My point: if the police know that rape victims often have trouble reporting clearly, but often improve with time and support, this helps defend them against some claims in the suit.<BR/><BR/>12:37 -<BR/>Raped women have different experiences. Some have psychotic breaks. How can you claim to know who has been raped? How can you know what someone's experience is like if they've been slipped a drug? Are all rapes the same? Are all traumas the same? Do all abusers do the same things? Why are repressed memories widely acknowledged if all victims can always remember exactly what happened? I don't deny your experience. Why deny anyone's experience?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-5762353746515650732007-10-10T01:41:00.000-04:002007-10-10T01:41:00.000-04:00The Hardeman Prize is a big deal, a very big deal ...The Hardeman Prize is a big deal, a very big deal indeed. For the unitiated, the judges of this prize are erudite and gimlet-eyed. A brief perusal of the previous winners is a stunning litany a scholarship, wit, and insight.<BR/><BR/>To borrow a story that Congressional scholars will know...<BR/><BR/>In the 1948 campaign for the Presidency, Harry S Truman had to do what no other Democratic Presidential nominee had ever done-campaign actively in Texas. He had to do so because he was the first to deliver a strong and uncomprimisng civil rights program-long before JFK or LBJ's visions.<BR/><BR/>In the bright sunny summer, Truman and the Governor, Buford Jester (you can't make up names like these), came to the hometown of Speaker of the House Sam Rayburn-Bonner, Texas. It was decided that the local populace would assemble at Rayburn's home and have an opportunity to great the President, who stood in Rayburn's parlor, a surreptious bourbon at hand in the desk next to him. Truman was more than oblingly, saying "Bring in the customers!" as the old former haberdasher referred to the voters of Bonner.<BR/><BR/>The Secret Service would have one of it-Out of the Question! they said. Rayburn would have none of that-"I know every man, woman, and child out there and I can vouch for every one of them!" Rayburn won the day and the crowd began their singe-file parade to see the President. Finally, Rayburn, who was watching the crowd move through his parlor, cried out, "Shut the door, Jester, they're coming through twice!"<BR/><BR/>A great congressional story, in my view...<BR/><BR/>But I do have sense that the shrill crowd criticizing KC is "coming through twice" with recycled, tired, and ill-considered criticisms.<BR/><BR/>ERDOC 1Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-47462545738242360912007-10-10T00:23:00.000-04:002007-10-10T00:23:00.000-04:00JLS @ 11:56 AM writes:"JLS says....,1. anon 10:28 ...JLS @ 11:56 AM writes:<BR/><BR/><I>"JLS says....,<BR/><BR/>1. anon 10:28 and observer I offerred NO opionion whether or not Durham would prevail with that defense."</I><BR/><BR/>JLS ... you have stated that you are not an attorney. Accordingly, please do us all a favor and refrain from offering any legal "opionion" whatsoever.<BR/><BR/>Jim in San Diego, Gregory, and other attorneys who comment here have offered some excellent legal observations. You have stated that you're a retired economics professor. Stick to that. I don't see the lawyers here offering "opionions" on economics.<BR/><BR/>Thank you.<BR/><BR/>One SpookOne Spookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592774438681904368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-69833424135906059962007-10-09T22:12:00.000-04:002007-10-09T22:12:00.000-04:00KC> an example of the power of your work, today on...KC> an example of the power of your work, today on The View, Whoopi Goldberg called on Al Sharpton to apologize to the Duke lacrosse players: to say he was wrong and sorry for the harm caused by his actions! I hope the majority of decent people keep standing up, bringing both sides to common ground of decency and pursuit of the truth. It's amazing to learn of this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-68511849781146638452007-10-09T18:04:00.000-04:002007-10-09T18:04:00.000-04:00No Justice, No Peace.I'm at a loss. My post said,...No Justice, No Peace.<BR/><BR/>I'm at a loss. My post said, in part: "But, the commentary has become entirely one-sided and lacks objectivity."<BR/><BR/>Yet, you responded with: "So you're suggesting something happened and the Klan of 88 are objective?"<BR/><BR/>I fail to see the connection between the two. Because a person believes the blog commentary is one-sided recently, he must also believe that "something happened"??? That's completely incongruous to me.<BR/><BR/>Of course, you ignored the sentence preceding "but..." which was: "Undoubtedly, this blog was a tremendous source of information and did much to shed light to the public about this case." To the extent it wasn't clear to you, my post wasn't (either explicitly or suggestively) referring to whether "something happened" or whether the "Klan of 88 are objective."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-67693008247889626802007-10-09T17:19:00.000-04:002007-10-09T17:19:00.000-04:00To 3:14,The reason that neither party wants this t...To 3:14,<BR/>The reason that neither party wants this to go to trial is because ANY jury is a crapshoot.<BR/>Just look at OJ amd Robert Blake. Those were criminal cases, but it came happen in civil cases also.<BR/><BR/>A few people have mentioned on this blog that even a federal jury(Depending on it's makeup) may not be real sympathetic to the plight of 3 rich white guys from out of town, no matter what the evidence reveals.<BR/><BR/>Don't get me wrong, I think DPD and the PA's Office screwed up big time, but I'm not sure a member of a jury (who might make 40-50K a year) may want to give the boys 10 million each. <BR/><BR/>There are tremendous legal costs involved on BOTH sides without any guarantee of recouping those costs if the case goes to the jury.<BR/><BR/>The City of Durham and more importantly the city's insurance carrier, is not just gonna roll over and pay the boys 30 million dollars without some semblance of a fight.<BR/><BR/>I am not an attorney, but I've been involved in litigation with cities many times. Rarely do these cases ever go to trial, and normally they are settled for less than the amount asked for.<BR/><BR/>Unlike some people on this blog who want to nuke the City of Durham, in my opinion, JLS and Jim in San Diego, provide excellent commentary and objective analysis. You have to remember in civil case it's rarely about justice, it becomes a business decision.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-51784453901449375622007-10-09T17:17:00.000-04:002007-10-09T17:17:00.000-04:00Another tempest in a teapot in Academe....http://w...Another tempest in a teapot in Academe....<BR/>http://www.wnbc.com/news/14303832/detail.html<BR/><BR/>Let's see how the metanarrative is exploited in *this* situation.<BR/><BR/>Wonder if this teacher is Wahneema's sister? ::::thinking::::Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com