tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post1826868019846273126..comments2024-02-24T05:19:10.949-05:00Comments on Durham-in-Wonderland: The Lacrosse Case, Law & the Mediakcjohnson9http://www.blogger.com/profile/09625813296986996867noreply@blogger.comBlogger130125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-74342662195803100592007-08-17T14:13:00.000-04:002007-08-17T14:13:00.000-04:00I will accept your apology and appreciate you bein...I will accept your apology and appreciate you being man enough to admitt your error.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-21501510325261524012007-08-17T10:27:00.000-04:002007-08-17T10:27:00.000-04:0010:06It looks like those checks aren't working (an...10:06<BR/><BR/>It looks like those checks aren't working (and not just at Duke.) Do you have any ideas how to make them work better?<BR/><BR/>Or is <A HREF="http://www.house.mo.gov/bills071/biltxt/perf/HB0213P.HTM" REL="nofollow">"affirmative action for Republicans"</A> really the only remaining course of action?<BR/><BR/>It's a really ugly solution, just barely better than nothing. Please help me find an alternative - keep in mind that inaction and trusting the current system to work are no longer viable options.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-69947796969589278762007-08-17T10:06:00.000-04:002007-08-17T10:06:00.000-04:00To Ralph @ 9:15Correct, we have large autonomy in ...To Ralph @ 9:15<BR/><BR/>Correct, we have large autonomy in defnining and identifying rising stars. One type of check comes at the Dean, Provost and APT level where we need to convince administrators and colleagues in other fields that the people we pick indeed have star potential. I believe KC already posted about how it works so I won't repeat it here. (http://durhamwonderland.blogspot.com/2007/08/furies.html) The most important check, however, is the department's external review, which takes place every five years. That's when the university determines whether we used resources wisely or not, and wehether we deserve to keep managing our affairs with large autonomy or not.<BR/><BR/>A Duke Prof.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-76953475573430725422007-08-17T09:48:00.000-04:002007-08-17T09:48:00.000-04:00"In part, your question about intent and who gets ..."In part, your question about intent and who gets the God's eye view was part of the moral of that story. If you'll notice the sequencing, the "no" came after the act. So definitionally, would it constitute 'rape?' Had implicit consent been given?"<BR/><BR/>Looking at it from an epistomological point of view - absent a video recording, is their any way anyone who wasn't there (such as, say, a jury) could ever <B>know</B> what really happened? So long as we remain the concept of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, as a practical matter prosecuting such cases is impossible.<BR/><BR/>Of course, the feminist jurisprudence answer is to give up "beyond a reasonable doubt," at least for men.<BR/><BR/>I suspect that by the time she's dating you'll have told your daughter enough about the nature of men that she won't get into such a situation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-15134577871140931012007-08-17T09:29:00.000-04:002007-08-17T09:29:00.000-04:00One Spook @ 12:59Thank you for the polite rebuke. ...One Spook @ 12:59<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the polite rebuke. You're right, ... in re-reading, I don't even agree with my own words in the last paragraph. The rhetorical question would have more clearly stated my intent. <BR/><BR/>I just wanted to be provocative. And now that the haze (or stupor) has lifted, I feel substantially less guilty. Hell, ... I don't feel guilty at all.<BR/><BR/>And as the father of a collegiate D1 lacrosse player ... a WASP male, etc. etc. ... believe me when I say that I too have very strong feelings about the injustice.<BR/><BR/>Sorry that the malt interfered with the clarity of my thoughts.<BR/><BR/><BR/>hman @ 1:09<BR/><BR/>In part, your question about intent and who gets the God's eye view was part of the moral of that story. If you'll notice the sequencing, the "no" came <I>after</I> the act. So definitionally, would it constitute 'rape?' Had implicit consent been given? <BR/><BR/>The feminist agenda would, I think, argue that no consent could be implied and that no consent was given. That would be an agenda-driven position that allows for an after-the-fact reconsideration of events, with the potential for retaliation. My sense is that the feminist agenda would have women believe that, in all encounters, they have the implicit option to "call the cops" if they don't like the outcome. Indeed, was the law designed to provide women tha option of imprisoning men? <BR/><BR/>And just for the record, I have a white friend who was kidnapped in a mall parking lot by two black assailants, brutally raped ... who then escaped her torment only by jumping naked from a car into traffic. All in broad daylight. That was what the law clearly was intended to deter and punish.<BR/><BR/>That was black and white.<BR/><BR/>It's the gray areas that trouble me.<BR/> _______________________________<BR/><BR/>Also, anyone who was offended by the 'narrative,' please accept my apology.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-1163375894195814332007-08-17T09:15:00.000-04:002007-08-17T09:15:00.000-04:00A Duke Prof.:If I'm understanding you correctly th...A Duke Prof.:<BR/><BR/>If I'm understanding you correctly the Duke administration tels the departments "get aggressive finding rising stars" and lets them definie rising stars for themselves. So as Steven Horwitz said at 6:01 pm, the problem isn't that the tenure committees aren't finding stars, it's in their <B>definition</B> of a star. A search run by folks who consider Houston Baker a star is never going to pick someone I like.<BR/><BR/>So the question is how can some adult supervision be applied to the departments that are now majority politicized?<BR/><BR/>Can the other departments exert some leverage by using their own standards of scholarship to other departments' hires? Are they willing to do so?<BR/><BR/>Or is the adult supervision going to have to come from <A HREF="http://www.house.mo.gov/bills071/biltxt/perf/HB0213P.HTM" REL="nofollow">outside?</A><BR/><BR/>I'm seriously considering writing my state legislators suggesting the we need a similar bill. Can KC, Steve H, Duke Prof or any of the other academics who hang out here talk me out of it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-71855702786579954022007-08-17T06:06:00.000-04:002007-08-17T06:06:00.000-04:00Topher, apologies I responded to your 5:31pm, not ...Topher, apologies I responded to your 5:31pm, not your 5:39pm. <BR/><BR/>A Duke Prof.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-40679502725618465102007-08-17T06:04:00.000-04:002007-08-17T06:04:00.000-04:00To: Topher @ 5:39pmYou are correct. It has been an...To: Topher @ 5:39pm<BR/><BR/>You are correct. It has been and it is Duke's strategy to uncover such types and make bets. The nature of the game is that ambitious schools must be aggressive. What often gets lost in the enthusiasm of the moment is that such an aggressive policy requires MORE due diligence and exercise of good judgment than the conservative (and expensive) policy of hiring only established stars. This is why how departments handle the details makes the difference. It is at the department level that people have the best contacts and the best information to assess the worth of the bet. Some departments at Duke have been very good at this, some not so good. For those who have been good, the policy has paid off handsomely.<BR/><BR/>A Duke Prof.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-27253750755409070402007-08-17T02:32:00.000-04:002007-08-17T02:32:00.000-04:00Excellent discussion of this post, everyone - it's...Excellent discussion of this post, everyone - it's been a true pleasure to read through the comments.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-38241797842482066392007-08-17T02:22:00.001-04:002007-08-17T02:22:00.001-04:00I doubt all that "feel good' was going on at a Bal...I doubt all that "feel good' was going on at a Ball. There are lots of examples of rape and murder from the sons of wealth and presige. Skakel, Central Park murderer and the guy Dog brought back from Mexico - convicted of 80 Plus rapes. You gotta be careful who you are hangin with. I do not mean the innocent team involved with Ms Crystal and Nifong.<BR/>A final thought - drinking and blogging do not mix.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-2112441222645246262007-08-17T02:22:00.000-04:002007-08-17T02:22:00.000-04:00topher said... "Schools that are just a bit below ...topher said... <BR/><BR/>"Schools that are just a bit below the bigtime big-shot universities (Harvard-Yale-Princeton, MIT, Stanford, a few others) feel the need to trawl for hopeful diamonds in the rough, people who were passed over by the top places that they hope will blossom into major academic stars that will lift the university into the top spotlight."<BR/><BR/>This would rationally lead to lots of high-risk choices. But why are they always leftwing/PC high risk choices? If you want to compete with Harvard by emulating a few of its best features, should finding your own version of Cornell West really be a high priority?<BR/><BR/>When Vanderbilt Collge hired Houston Baker they crowed about how he was going to help them build a kick-@$$ african american literature program. Why do they think having one is so important?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-66885016098516847732007-08-17T02:16:00.000-04:002007-08-17T02:16:00.000-04:00Horowitz is a genius.Horowitz is a genius.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-2495414115698785892007-08-17T02:13:00.000-04:002007-08-17T02:13:00.000-04:00Steve Horwitz said:"Yes, tenure committees/process...Steve Horwitz said:<BR/><BR/>"Yes, tenure committees/processes make mistakes (on my campus too), but I don't think they are systematically flawed. The flaws, if anywhere, are deeper in terms of what academics value as worthwhile contributions to knowledge/teaching. Tenure committees just reflect that."<BR/><BR/>I agree that the tenure committee decisions I don't like just reflect more general trends in academia I don't like. But it's also true that those decisions amplify those trends. Whether the tenure committees are "doing a good job" depends on what you think their job should be. I suppose from a practical point of view tenure committees see their job as "choosing colleagues we like," but other stakeholders (students, alumni, administrators, professors in other departments, taxpayers) might prefer they saw their job as "choosing good professors" even if that conflicted with the previous goal. I know that begs the question of what constitutes a good professor, but can we at least agree that Ward Churchill was a bad one?<BR/><BR/>" If the tenure system was truly flawed, wouldn't we see both type 1 and type 2 errors?"<BR/>The type 2 errors are pretty hard to observe. Anyway my complaint is not with the number of errors, but with the repetitive sameness of them - which gets us back to the issue of what academics value.<BR/><BR/>I believe there is a pattern to the flaws in what academics value. It's not just an obsession with trivia and a prevalance of bizarre views. If it was a truly random sampling of trivia and bizarre views it would be a minor problem at worst. Instead I see a lot people obsessed with the <B>same</B> trivia and sharing the <B>same</B> bizarre views. It's a cluster of traits that aren't necessarily logically connected, but for whatever reason are strongly correlated, including marxism, other leftwing politics, identity politics, overuse of "theory" in all its forms (structuralism, post structuralism, deconstruction, Freudian psychology, etc.), and the belief that academics should be political activists.<BR/><BR/>Do you agree with the above?<BR/><BR/>I also maintain that the above pattern is harmful to both research and teaching in the following ways:<BR/><BR/>I believe that to continue to believe in left wing ideologies after the events of the twentieth century requires a denial of reality so deep that it can't help but harm both one's research and one's teaching. Other parts of the PC agenda, such as refusing to believe that men and women have on the average different distributions of traits, require similarly damaging levels of denial. <BR/><BR/>Do you aree?<BR/><BR/>I believe that political activism tends to lead to polemics and propaganda - attempts to persuade by fair means or foul - and so is corrupting to the pursuit of truth. It's extremely difficult to switch between polemicist and scholar without the attitudes and techniques of the one affecting how one approaches the other.<BR/><BR/>Do you agree?<BR/><BR/>I believe that the more important one's political beliefs are to one's self image, and the more one sees a university as a place for activism towards specific goals rather than pursuit of knowledge wherever it may lead, the more likely it is that one will choose to hire a poor scholar with the "right" political views rather than a competent researcher and teacher with political views one disagrees with. <BR/><BR/>Do you agree?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-72636104911016082102007-08-17T01:35:00.000-04:002007-08-17T01:35:00.000-04:00There are not only absolutes, but an existence of ...There are not only absolutes, but an existence of evil.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-23125775079804839262007-08-17T01:33:00.000-04:002007-08-17T01:33:00.000-04:00Tom - You know noting about me and the other poste...Tom - You know noting about me and the other posters, except your pals, of course. I can tolerate other opinions without hate and insults. You might think about learing to do the same. KC is the teacher here - not you. Save it for another day and another blog. I found you little essai inappropriate for a blog, but in line with a Barbara Cartland "book".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-2779065750218273972007-08-17T01:09:00.000-04:002007-08-17T01:09:00.000-04:00My Dear Inman I have a 20 something daughter wh...My Dear Inman<BR/> I have a 20 something daughter who somehow survived her college experience (in a free-wheeling place for sure) without enduring the type trauma you describe. There are several reasons, some of which I will take some credit for. First, a good part of her girl-hood was spent on horseback.(Which she loved passionately) Some of that was truly dangerous; most of it was sweaty and stinky, all of it was great preparation for equipping her to make her feelings plain to some deeby guy - no matter how much beer was involved. Shit, she has been seen crushing barn-rats with her boot-heels. (I would mention that she is quite a deadly pistol shot but KC lives in NY.) Excellent general life training for a young woman, imho.<BR/> Second, she did not leave home without some plain language information regarding the functional dynamics involved with getting drunk and alone and naked with a guy.<BR/> But here is a larger problem. Who the hell knows what really happened in an actual situation similar to what you described? Who gets a gods eye view of the true intentions and actions of the parties involved and the signals they sent and thought they received? How does anyone else get to "beyond a reasonable doubt" about it? In other words, maybe the cops should not be called, most of the time. I have a son, too. <BR/> Lots of confused, horny, conflicted young women out there carrying a toxic load of feminist programming.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-74572355621388461882007-08-17T00:59:00.000-04:002007-08-17T00:59:00.000-04:00inman, not sharing his Scotch with the rest of us,...inman, not sharing his Scotch with the rest of us, writes at 12:09:<BR/><BR/><I>I respectfully ask that all on this blog think about the policy implications of this case, implications beyond the effect of the '88, Duke University, students everywhere and, most importantly, true victims.<BR/><BR/>I am as guilty as anyone....but we have all adopted an attitude that guilt can never be proved. "Innocent until proven guilty" is different that "guilt can never be proved."</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think anyone can argue with your first paragrah, Tom.<BR/><BR/>And you can feel guilty if you wish, but please do not assume that "we have adopted any attitude" simply because many of us have strong feelings about the injustice that was done to three young men and because this entire incident was a hoax perpetrated by a false accuser.<BR/><BR/>Maybe you meant to write <B>"have we</B> all adopted an attitude ... perhaps a rhetorical question.<BR/><BR/>Based on what has been posted here over time, is it more than absurd for you to presume that *we* have "an attitude that guilt can never be proved."<BR/><BR/>The collective "we" probably do not agree with your choice of pronouns, Tom.<BR/><BR/>One SpookOne Spookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592774438681904368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-65955196045813216142007-08-17T00:49:00.000-04:002007-08-17T00:49:00.000-04:0012:32You are an illiterate moron. Scuzzy was not p...12:32<BR/><BR/>You are an illiterate moron. <BR/><BR/>Scuzzy was not postulated. Lets assume it was a debutante party, with the social creme de la creme. And let's assume that "rolling around drunk" just doesn't quite capture the state of mind. And let's assume further that the person that the young lady is with is the son of a Senator. Finally, let's assume that the young lady has just returned from a mission to Africa in which she was providing sustenance to the starving and during which she was exposed to substantial personal harm.<BR/><BR/>I repeat,...you are a pluperfect moron. There are no absolutes and anyone who believes otherwise deserves the fruits of idiocy. <BR/><BR/>You clearly fall in that category.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-60062577786829176172007-08-17T00:34:00.000-04:002007-08-17T00:34:00.000-04:00Ok, if that's Debrah in the pictures, she'll have ...Ok, if that's Debrah in the pictures, she'll have to be played by Lynda Carter in the movie...Topherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13341013670537662616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-46560963052814423142007-08-17T00:32:00.000-04:002007-08-17T00:32:00.000-04:00It helps to teach daughters that when they go to s...It helps to teach daughters that when they go to scuzzy places - scuzzy things happen. As Anne Coulter writes "You can greatly reduce your chances of being raped, if you are not rolling around drunk at 2:00AM." Smart women need to think about where they are, who are they with and what is going on. Those who are fragile might consider putting their college experience off, until they gain some inner strength. I will stick with the framers "Innocent until proven guilty>"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-22835839552875363692007-08-17T00:09:00.000-04:002007-08-17T00:09:00.000-04:00Gary Packwood...Thank you for the link to the 'sat...Gary Packwood...<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the link to the 'saturday night" discussion.<BR/><BR/>I'm going to respectfully disagree.<BR/><BR/>Although anecdotal in nature, the stories told ring with a certain sense of truth. <BR/><BR/>Now, I am putting on my hat as the father who has an 11 year old daughter. My daughter at this point is the definition of pure and chaste. <BR/><BR/>Now, I think about the "saturday night" web site and what these young women at Duke were saying. Yes, one can posit that day after regrets could oftentimes result in an allegation of "rape" when in fact consent had been given. But then again, one can also imagine situations in which aggressive appetite overwhelms polite protest.<BR/>One can imagine that this polite protest was quiet, reserved, even assuming that the "act" could not be real and that surely one's "friend" is listening. A quiet reserved polite young lady, a young lady of background and breeding ... after a party, giggling with a young man of equal background and breeding, ...but both inebriated, both impaired,...laughing and talking and then in a room alone. The room begins to spin for the young lady. She sits, then lies on a bed. The young man sits beside her. She closes her eyes. He places his hand on her breast and then he kisses her. She only partially responds, for her senses are dull, but she likes the kiss.<BR/><BR/>Then, with the urge of youth and the erection that now adorns his body, he starts to take her shirt off. She does not resist, for at this point, she feels mellow and with the room spinning, enjoys the sensations ... the kissing and the touching. He removes her bra. Her nipples are erect. He kisses her breasts...and carresses her body. <BR/><BR/>Then, as the moment seizes him, he pulls at her panties and places himself between her legs. He penetrates. <BR/><BR/>She awakens from the pleasure of gentle touches and says: "NO" ...She repeats over and over...no...no...no...<BR/><BR/>__________________________<BR/><BR/>I respectfully submit that too many people on this blog have, in a cavalier fashion, placed my daughter at risk. I acknowledge that in the case of the HOAX, the victims were the lacrosse players. But I would hate to think that as a result of this episode my daughter ... or anyone else's daughter for that matter ... needed to worry about rape.<BR/><BR/>I respectfully ask that all on this blog think about the policy implications of this case, implications beyond the effect of the '88, Duke University, students everywhere and, most importantly, true victims.<BR/><BR/>I am as guilty as anyone....but we have all adopted an attitude that guilt can never be proved. "Innocent until proven guilty" is different that "guilt can never be proved."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-8133193632096711812007-08-16T23:45:00.000-04:002007-08-16T23:45:00.000-04:00KC at 5:45 said:"A good summary of Duke's path--co...KC at 5:45 said:<BR/>"A good summary of Duke's path--confirming Topher's hunch--came in this January post from ex-Duke prof Stuart Rojstaczer."<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't give any credibility to Rojstacser. He has a long, public and unrelieved history of attacks on Duke students, especially athletes. If still at Duke, he would surely have been #89.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-3719566188621971012007-08-16T23:43:00.000-04:002007-08-16T23:43:00.000-04:00The talented Professor Johnson, who has done a ter...The talented Professor Johnson, who has done a terrific service, is blinded by the important contributions made by ace reporter Joe Neff. Because of Neff, he is willing, apparently, to give a pass to Khanna, Blythe, Sill and others. The N&O also published the scurrilous poster, thereby libeling many members of the lacrosse team.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-43073203951914508532007-08-16T22:57:00.000-04:002007-08-16T22:57:00.000-04:00Thanks in part to the Yeager/Pressler book, we kno...<I>Thanks in part to the Yeager/Pressler book, we know the N&O’s Ruth Sheehan relied on Nifong as an anonymous source for her 3/27 “Team’s Silence Is Sickening” column.</I><BR/><BR/>Ruth Sheehan makes my skin crawl.<BR/><BR/>Banality personified.Debrahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567454727276881424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-85274647901562835652007-08-16T22:17:00.000-04:002007-08-16T22:17:00.000-04:00Pretty?Kim Roberts ain't no damn looker.But with a...Pretty?<BR/><BR/>Kim Roberts ain't no damn looker.<BR/><BR/>But with a gun to one's head and forced to label either Ms. Roberts or Ms. Mangum as "pretty", most folks would likely hold their nose and vote for the Kimster.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com