tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post8155417865518845046..comments2024-02-24T05:19:10.949-05:00Comments on Durham-in-Wonderland: Barry Lenser on UPIkcjohnson9http://www.blogger.com/profile/09625813296986996867noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-64916466134972734122007-12-10T10:28:00.000-05:002007-12-10T10:28:00.000-05:00To w.l.:There's no contradiction between the two s...To w.l.:<BR/><BR/>There's no contradiction between the two statements. It's my sense--based on interviews with dozens of Duke students and professors, including <I>Chronicle</I> reporters and members of the student government--that during the period between March 25 and April 10, when the first DNA test results were revealed, that the large majority of Duke students withheld judgment. I don't consider withholding judgment defending the lacrosse players. (Perhaps the Group of 88 felt differently, believing--like their ideological mirrors on the far right--that anyone who wasn't "with them" was "against them.") <BR/><BR/>After April 10, Duke students, in increasing and eventually overwhelming numbers, did recognize the extent of Nifong's hoax and start defending the lacrosse players.<BR/><BR/>A minority of students, of course, did rush to judgment--as seen in the photos of the March 27 and March 29 campus protests. For the book, I asked several lacrosse players what it was like to encounter these students on campus after the case had imploded, and whether any of these students had apologized to them personally.<BR/><BR/>Those whom I spoke with hadn't received apologies, but said they think back to events of March 2006 whenever they see these students "on the campus quad."kcjohnson9https://www.blogger.com/profile/09625813296986996867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-49893799763699140592007-12-10T09:04:00.000-05:002007-12-10T09:04:00.000-05:00Something I forgot to add that might expand some s...Something I forgot to add that might expand some stereotypes as well: Orin Starn is a former professional athlete, and his class on Sport and Society is very popular with varsity athletes.curveshiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07600844329927606370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-51987294290943529992007-12-10T09:00:00.000-05:002007-12-10T09:00:00.000-05:00KC:You say here:"While a small handful rushed to j...KC:<BR/>You say here:<BR/>"While a small handful rushed to judgment in various events of March 27-March 29, the overwhelming majority did not do so"<BR/>Yet in the "Rehab Tour" post that started this discussion thread you said:<BR/>"Of course, during the period in which the statement was written (March 29-April 6, 2006), virtually no one was defending the lacrosse team on the 'campus quad.'"<BR/>???<BR/><BR/>mac: Missed your post earlier, sorry. If I may expand your stereotypes a bit: first, it's "he," not "she." Second, like all grad students I served as a grad assistant, but never under a G88 member. Third, I'm a former div 1 college lacrosse player myself (though my career was neither long nor distinguished at that level), and still love the sport. So I might handle myself in that hypothetical ring a little better than you'd expect ;).curveshiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07600844329927606370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-64747336827158038642007-12-10T08:26:00.000-05:002007-12-10T08:26:00.000-05:00traveler said... (More student lunacy disguised as...traveler said... <BR/>(More student lunacy disguised as free speech.)<BR/><BR/>I would describe it as "More PC hypersensitivity to symbolic actions." College students being tasteless is neither new nor news. It's anyone else caring that's peculiar.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-29566100492891435052007-12-09T21:14:00.000-05:002007-12-09T21:14:00.000-05:00wavylines responding to traveler"If the anonymous ...wavylines responding to traveler<BR/><BR/>"If the anonymous commenter calling him/herself "Duke Prof" is what he/she says, it makes me rather sad that they share your views."<BR/><BR/>You need to read more carefully. My comment was about "hoax enablers," not Duke students. <BR/><BR/>That said, some of the enablers were students. And those particular students did behave like parrots repeating blindly the angry studies script. However, your response commits the fallacy of composition. That a fact applies to parts (of the Duke student body) does not mean that it applies to the whole (student body). Further, that an argument makes you "sad," is nothing more than an appeal to emotion.<BR/><BR/>Your questioning of my bona fides is odd considering you choose to remain anonymous. That aside, unless you are tenured at Duke, I've been there far longer than you have.<BR/><BR/>Duke ProfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-87702414727195570192007-12-09T16:04:00.000-05:002007-12-09T16:04:00.000-05:00I would concur with w.l. on the performance of Duk...I would concur with w.l. on the performance of Duke students.<BR/><BR/>While a small handful rushed to judgment in various events of March 27-March 29, the overwhelming majority did not do so, and very quickly recognized the extent of Nifong's hoax. More important, they took action to implement their beliefs, most notably through the voter registration campaign (for which, of course, they were attacked as "secret racists" by Group of 88'er Grant Farred).kcjohnson9https://www.blogger.com/profile/09625813296986996867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-85761242429657373822007-12-09T15:33:00.000-05:002007-12-09T15:33:00.000-05:00Duke Prof,I agree that the hoax enablers were clas...Duke Prof,<BR/>I agree that the hoax enablers were classic bullies and now that people have dared to stand up to them they seem to have taken their toys and gone home ..at least for now. The G88 seem to have tremendous egos and many apparently have never ever been required to defend their positions before.<BR/><BR/>It was quite amusing to see Karla Holloway, the poster professor for every injustice that the Duke lacrosse case represents, run home to the Duke administration for cover wailing that the faculty was not being supported enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-12766963781372047502007-12-09T12:59:00.000-05:002007-12-09T12:59:00.000-05:00traveler wrote: "The 'take back the night' rally a...traveler wrote: "The 'take back the night' rally at Duke was organized in the same style Castro orchestrates public events in Cuba. Students were spoon-fed agitprop and then sent out to put on a show for the media."<BR/><BR/>I'm afraid I don't share your dim view of Duke students. They're adults, rather smarter than the average too, and their views and beliefs are wide-ranging. No one "spoon-feeds" them "agitprop" or "boilerplate" for them to regurgitate.<BR/><BR/>And a comparison to Castro is intellectual shameful. You have, quite frankly, no idea what you're talking about.<BR/><BR/>If the anonymous commenter calling him/herself "Duke Prof" is what he/she says, it makes me rather sad that they share your views.curveshiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07600844329927606370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-54740265283044612302007-12-09T07:15:00.000-05:002007-12-09T07:15:00.000-05:00Duke Prof 10:10So glad you wrote that post.Wavylin...Duke Prof 10:10<BR/><BR/>So glad you wrote that post.<BR/><BR/>Wavylines sounds like a grad assistant to someone in the Angry Studies Dept. or an administrator just below the level of the hapless, hipless, spineless Brodhead.<BR/><BR/>Your post bodyslammed Wavylines' comments. (Perhaps she'll perform a tap-out?)machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14248016116043347912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-10542334567502719072007-12-08T20:37:00.000-05:002007-12-08T20:37:00.000-05:00To 3:38 p.m.Roy Cooper, the North Carolina AG, wan...To 3:38 p.m.<BR/><BR/>Roy Cooper, the North Carolina AG, wants in the worst way to be the next governor. He absolutely does not want to alienate any segment of the voting population.<BR/><BR/>I got an invitation to one of his soirees - at a cost of $500 or so - and I returned the rsvp card filled out with the name Crystal Mangum from the Bunny Hole Club.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-52037490299806726162007-12-08T18:18:00.000-05:002007-12-08T18:18:00.000-05:00traveler dissects waylines' absurd comments with a...traveler dissects waylines' absurd comments with a quote from David Usher at 9:40 AM:<BR/><BR/><I>"One thing is clear: feminist campus activities at Duke in 2006 did not occur because of spontaneous student outrage. They were organized by professors in the Women’s Studies department ..."</I><BR/><BR/>Indeed, and to that I would add, why is it that the professors in the Women's Studies department, and all of the other professors of Diverse Humanities at Duke, have not organized an equivalent "spontaneous student outrage" over the alleged rape, a few weeks after the lacrosse hoax, of a white Duke student at a black fraternity house, allegedly committed by a black man?<BR/><BR/>Where was the ad in the Chronicle about students "... shouting and whispering about what happened to this young woman and to themselves"?<BR/><BR/>And, given the total blackout of information on this later case, why is it not a "disaster" that " ... no one is really talking about how to keep the young woman herself central to this conversation, how to keep her humanity before us ... she doesn't seem to be visible in this. Not for the university, not for us."?<BR/><BR/>Why were there not potbangers protesting in front of the home of the accused in that case?<BR/><BR/>Why have we not seen photos of the accused's "perp walk"?<BR/><BR/>And what of the comments "rampant" on the "campus quad" about this incident?<BR/><BR/>As KC himself might say in his lovely droll style, "About these questions, wavylines does not say."<BR/><BR/>One SpookOne Spookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592774438681904368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-41189626132122560082007-12-08T10:14:00.000-05:002007-12-08T10:14:00.000-05:00Ralph Phelan said... How exactly does that [Obama'...Ralph Phelan said... <BR/>How exactly does that [Obama's letter] deserve the credit given?<BR/>It may not be much, but it's still more than anyone got out of his 99 colleagues.<BR/>------------------------<BR/>I found no documentation that 100 requests were made. If an Obama supporter wanted a few free campaign lines, they could say that. <BR/><BR/>Do you really believe ‘only’ Sen. Obama replied? One thing I have learned from D-I-W is to question, and the Obama letter says nothing about him taking actual action to help the LAX3. <BR/><BR/>IMO, we were “Nifonged” with a play on words. I know KC supports Obama, but the reference to this letter was questionable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-66360659538153164712007-12-08T10:10:00.000-05:002007-12-08T10:10:00.000-05:00wavylines wrote"Having been on the 'campus quad' a...wavylines wrote<BR/><BR/>"Having been on the 'campus quad' at the time of the event -- something KC was not -- I know from first-hand experience that he's wrong concerning what kind of campus debates were going on at the time."<BR/><BR/>Having been on campus the entire time, I know from first-hand experience that KC was *right* about the "kind of campus 'debates'" that "were going on at the time."<BR/><BR/>From defenders of the lacrosse players, there was reasoned discourse, informed by facts and an appeal to a presumption of innocence.<BR/><BR/>From the hoax enablers, there was blind rage, driven by race/class envy. Their tactics were those of bullies: intimidation and spurious charges of racism -- all cheered on by the PC professoriate.<BR/><BR/>Duke ProfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-9054747590869824672007-12-08T09:40:00.000-05:002007-12-08T09:40:00.000-05:00wavylines said... "Why would we need your opinion ...wavylines said... <BR/>"Why would we need your opinion about what was going on if we could read about what was going on in the Duke Chronicle and see the signs, the potbanges and the ads on campus and in the community of Durham?"<BR/>----------------------------------<BR/>The reason the student comments are not totally credible, is that they are “boilerplate” type comments from students incited by artificial circumstances. The G-88 used the students, just as Nifong used the black voters of Durham. <BR/><BR/>The whole exercise was based on a hoax, the comments are based on faculty taking advantage of a hoax. The comments are baseless because they are based on a hoax, the faculty orchestrated……., and that is, ‘The house that Jack built!’<BR/><BR/>The following article is very well documented. <BR/>Excerpts:<BR/>The “take back the night” rally at Duke was organized in the same style Castro orchestrates public events in Cuba. Students were spoon-fed agitprop and then sent out to put on a show for the media. What a carnivale of hate it was! <BR/><BR/>One thing is clear: feminist campus activities at Duke in 2006 did not occur because of spontaneous student outrage.<BR/>-----------------<BR/>DUKE RAPE CASE: THE FEMINIST KLAN EXPOSED<BR/>David R. Usher<BR/>May 12, 2007 <BR/>NewsWithViews.com <BR/><BR/>The watershed event at Duke has ignited long-overdue scrutiny of cultish women’s studies programs that have impressed hatred and sexism towards men at our Universities. <BR/><BR/>One thing is clear: feminist campus activities at Duke in 2006 did not occur because of spontaneous student outrage. They were organized by professors in the Women’s Studies department in cohort with national feminist organizations such as the National Organization for Women and the American Association of University Women. <BR/><BR/>http://www.newswithviews.com/Usher/david51.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-86879003180880754772007-12-08T01:00:00.000-05:002007-12-08T01:00:00.000-05:00I will miss Jim Peterson (in San Diego) and Texas ...I will miss Jim Peterson (in San Diego) and Texas Mom.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-87828937692427207432007-12-07T22:07:00.000-05:002007-12-07T22:07:00.000-05:00KC, Thanks for your follow up on the Klan of 88. ...KC, <BR/><BR/>Thanks for your follow up on the Klan of 88. Speaking of Cathy Davidson, and your response to Wavylines, check out Scott McLemee's list of academic blogs in "Inside Higher Education." I've copied the interesting bit below. <BR/><BR/>[Begin Quote] "Cathy Davidson, a professor of English and interdisciplinary studies at Duke University who blogs at Cat in the Stack, recommends a number of blogs including “danah boyd’s Apophrenia column, Howard Reingolds’ Smart Mobs, and Henry Jenkins’ Acafan.”<BR/><BR/>All three have a strong emphasis on digital culture. She also points out Savage Minds, a group blog on anthropology, and Jonathan Sterne’s Super Bon!" [End Quote] <BR/><BR/>Well, I can't vouch for Mr. McLemee, but I would tend to view anything recommended by professor Davidson as suspect, given her apparent approval of the behavior of the faculty signing the 'listening statement' and engaging in the persecution of student athletes. <BR/><BR/>A word of thanks, KC. You have given all of us, in the academy or outside of it, a very high standard for careful, complete coverage and analysis of complex and controversial events. A true scholar, and certainly a gentleman, in every sense of both terms. Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-83400859581797700802007-12-07T19:28:00.000-05:002007-12-07T19:28:00.000-05:00(More student lunacy disguised as free speech.)---...(More student lunacy disguised as free speech.)<BR/>-------------------<BR/>Students Dress as VT Victims, Cause Outrage <BR/><BR/>It started with a picture on Facebook and has now created a firestorm of outrage.<BR/><BR/>Two Penn State students, dressed as Virginia Tech shooting victims, at a Halloween party have enraged people from the Virginia Tech community, as well as the entire country.<BR/><BR/>The fact that one of these individuals is actually from Virginia, makes it even more difficult to understand. <BR/><BR/>Just because something is within the bounds of the Constitution and free speech, does not mean it should be undertaken. We certainly condemn these ugly and senseless actions. <BR/><BR/>http://www.wsls.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSLS%2FMGArticle%2FSLS_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1173353763706&path=!news!localnewsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-41676916189325029042007-12-07T19:19:00.000-05:002007-12-07T19:19:00.000-05:00"A theory that the Group's ad was directed to stra..."A theory that the Group's ad was directed to stray anonymous comments in blogs (comments that were not mentioned anywhere in the ad) requires at least some corroborating evidence."<BR/><BR/>My contention in the ... we can call it just the "lost" post if you prefer, was that Davidson et al. didn't need blogs to know what was being discussed on the campus quad -- they were there and heard it directly from their students and colleagues. Blogs only come into importance after the fact, as a written approximation of the uncensored campus discussions.curveshiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07600844329927606370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-41641075397152123802007-12-07T17:41:00.000-05:002007-12-07T17:41:00.000-05:00To reiterate:It is not the blog's policy to "censo...To reiterate:<BR/><BR/>It is not the blog's policy to "censor" comments. I imposed comment moderation with only the greatest of reluctance, after other attempts to get rid of two off-topic or vile commenters failed; and I have cleared hundreds of comments that either disagreed with my position on the case or attacked me in deeply personal terms. Such behavior is not normally considered consistent with a "censorship" regime.<BR/><BR/>A theory that the Group's ad was directed to stray anonymous comments in blogs (comments that were not mentioned anywhere in the ad) requires at least some corroborating evidence.<BR/><BR/>So too does the claim that such anonymous comments came from Duke students.<BR/><BR/>This discussion began off the Cathy Davidson quote that racist comments defending the lacrosse players were "rampant" on the "campus quad" between 3-29 and 4-6-06. If Davidson--a professor of English, no less--really meant to say that racist comments from anonymous commenters at blogs were "rampant" during this time period, it doesn't seem too much to assume that she would have written as much, and perhaps even provided an example to bolster her argument.<BR/><BR/>Of course, she did not do so.kcjohnson9https://www.blogger.com/profile/09625813296986996867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-53843812252818194372007-12-07T17:29:00.000-05:002007-12-07T17:29:00.000-05:00"Why would we need your opinion about what was goi..."Why would we need your opinion about what was going on if we could read about what was going on in the Duke Chronicle and see the signs, the potbanges and the ads on campus and in the community of Durham?"<BR/><BR/>Because, as I explained in the comment KC censored, Duke students are smart enough not to say some things when a camera is thrust in their face. That's why the blog posts are significant -- they're as close as we get in the written record to the uncensored conversations that were going on at the time. The reason those conversations are of relevance is because it was to them -- and not the external media coverage -- that the "listening statement" ad was directed.curveshiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07600844329927606370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-30852715903520751042007-12-07T15:38:00.000-05:002007-12-07T15:38:00.000-05:00The decision on whether to proceed with a ciminal ...The decision on whether to proceed with a ciminal investigation of the perpetrators of the Duke Lacrosse hoax now lies with NC Atty. Gen. Roy Cooper.<BR/><BR/>D-I-W readers who wish to express their opinion on a criminal probe can contact Mr. Cooper:<BR/><BR/>Atty. Gen. Roy Cooper<BR/>9001 Mail Service Center<BR/>Raleigh, NC 27699-9001<BR/><BR/>Telephone: 919-716-6400 • Fax: 919-716-6750Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-23215552214168502942007-12-07T14:49:00.000-05:002007-12-07T14:49:00.000-05:00wavylines 1:28 said... ..."If anyone wants to go a...wavylines 1:28 said... <BR/><BR/>..."If anyone wants to go absolutely nuts--in awe-struck fashion--while reading KC-speak.......go back to his post (Group 88 Rehab Tour) and read his (4:49 PM) reply to a confused ankle-biter."<BR/>...The irony being that he didn't clear my response.<BR/>...Having been on the "campus quad" at the time of the event -- something KC was not -- I know from first-hand experience that he's wrong concerning what kind of campus debates were going on at the time. But based on the censoring of posts, I don't think he wants to hear about it.<BR/>::<BR/>Why would we need your opinion about what was going on if we could read about what was going on in the Duke Chronicle and see the signs, the potbanges and the ads on campus and in the community of Durham?<BR/><BR/>Egoism (yours) is vastly overrated.<BR/>::<BR/>GPGary Packwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05177986821224068759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-89076590340044192252007-12-07T14:33:00.000-05:002007-12-07T14:33:00.000-05:009:14 comments Re; Obama.Let's refresh our memories...9:14 comments Re; Obama.<BR/><BR/>Let's refresh our memories:<BR/><BR/>1. Didn't Obama visit Durham to throw his support behind Mayor Bell's relection?<BR/><BR/>2. Didn't Mayor Bell pledge his undying support for Obama?<BR/><BR/>3. Do we know of Mayor Bell's role in the LAX scandal?<BR/><BR/>4. Isn't KC a member of the enthusiastic "Historians for Obama" crowd?<BR/><BR/>5. Why do these strange connections make me pause???<BR/><BR/>Today's Chronicle states that Duke pumps over $3 billion into the Durham economy. Follow the money.<BR/><BR/>It takes money to win elections. <BR/><BR/>We have NO principled politicians who are willing to take up the LAX injustices because it is an election year...just more part of the total disgracing scenario we now call the LAX scandal. Selfish self-interest. NC, Washington, Illinois. Follow the money and follow the votes.<BR/><BR/>It may be that we will just have to wait until the LAX 3 complete their education and see if they can use their hard-earned noteriety to do something positive about the whole mess. Sure hope and pray that they will choose to make a difference in the world. Lots of people paid a price for their freedom... and it was more than money.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-81642524693786059672007-12-07T14:15:00.000-05:002007-12-07T14:15:00.000-05:00"That the Duke rape scandal could elicit such a wi..."That the Duke rape scandal could elicit such a wide-ranging discourse speaks to its relevance as a social, political, and legal signpost for America."<BR/><BR/>----<BR/><BR/>Other issues elicit "wide-ranging discourse", when there is legitimate doubt as to who is telling the truth, and who is lying.<BR/><BR/>This case is exceptional, because the true facts are absolutely established, so the only room for "wide-ranging discourse" is between those who care about the truth, and those who place ideology before facts, and who deliberately promulgate lies in order to serve their politics and bigotry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32542246.post-23843116642837380502007-12-07T13:50:00.000-05:002007-12-07T13:50:00.000-05:00K.C.:What do you think of sponsoring some final th...K.C.:<BR/><BR/>What do you think of sponsoring some final threads to sum up the Duke hoax experience?<BR/><BR/>Some possibilities:<BR/><BR/> 1. Why should anyone/everyone still be interested in the hoax today, 19 months after it began? <BR/><BR/>Answers to this question will address the taunting, anonymous comments of the ilk, "its over. get a life". For me, father of three white, male, privileged children, it is not over. Others will have their own reasons.<BR/><BR/> 2. What should individual participants do in the future, faced with some parallel situation as at Duke? (Students? Parents? Others?). (Absent some countervailing reaction, nothing whatsoever will change. Perhaps we could start proselytizing now.)<BR/><BR/> 3. From a historian's perspective, where do P.C. warriors fit in?<BR/><BR/> a. French student protest movement(s)? <BR/><BR/> b. The Brownshirt movement in Germany, circa 1920-30? (see, for instance, Schirer's Berlin Diary, for a discussion of tactics used to coerce dissenters)<BR/><BR/> Your work has been eye-opening to this naive parent living on the edge of the continent.<BR/><BR/> Thank you,<BR/><BR/>Jim PetersonJim in San Diegohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07032079086884503680noreply@blogger.com