- was told by Karla Holloway,
- who overheard a call to John Burness,
- who was told by a Duke police officer,
- who overheard a Durham Police Officer
- say that a Mystery Witness told him or her . . .
Some would call this sixth-hand slander.
And, by the way, Holloway kept this information secret for nine months, even as she embarked on a campaign of regular denounciation of the lacrosse players and their supporters, before deciding to turn it over to Michaels to protest the decision to lift the suspensions of Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty.
The report of this ugly epithet was not mentioned by:
- neighbor Jason Bissey, who seemed to despise the lacrosse players;
- Kim Roberts, a figure certainly sensitive to perceived and real slights
- any of the captains, who conceded in their statements that a racially charged argument occurred after the party.
It did not appear in Himan's notes. Nor was it present in Sgt. Gottlieb's "straight-from-memory" notes. But Gottlieb probably kept it out because he was looking out for the best interests of the players.
Nor did a report of the "epithet" appear anywhere in the discovery file.
Just amazing.
190 comments:
KC
Why do the professors at duke feel that they can slander their students at Duke with impunity? Is it like this at the campus you work at?
I guess this is what Cash would fall "the facts." Science, on the other hand, is an "opinion."
Notice how Karla Holloway is trying to portray herself as the ultimate victim here?
And worse yet KC...I read it to say Burgess confirmed the hearsay.
As I said on Liestoppers, these people believe this drivel, but they did not believe that the Duke police heard Precious claim that she had been raped by 20 men? That's some contortion going on...and yes, amazing how Karla and Cash have managed to keep the lid on this for the past nine months now...these folks are getting desperate, and I'd say just sit back and enjoy the show, but what they are attempting to do is GHASTLY, and it is anything but funny...keep spewing guys, because Cheshire is taking notes!
<< Some would call this fifth-hand slander. >>
Sixth hand? The police officer in turn must have heard the slurs related from someone who heard the lacrosse players say them.
When did this call take place? Let's see the emails, both Holloway's & Burness'.
Perhaps Holloway will wax Meehanian & claim that she didn't reveal this nugget 9 months ago 'to protect [someone's] privacy...
It is my belief that the other side is pretty good at epithets too.
Yeah, Burness confirmed it. He's trying to give the 88 a reason to have condemned the lacrosse team. Duke will be included in all the lawsuits. Duke will have to pay all damages for all professors if it wants to settle out of court. It seems like they're trying to excuse some of the culprits by showing that they were provoked by hearsay.
From the article: "While the racist remark allegedly made by some party attendees is not clear evidence that a rape or sexual assault indeed occurred, as the accuser maintains, it does confirm a frame of mind at that party that alleged slurs which have been previously reported seem to allude to."
How is it that an allegation is confirmation of anything? It's an allegation, and I for one will need to see more than another inflammatory screed from Cash Michaels before I believe it.
Wasn't it one of Cash's sources that told us that the accuser gave birth back in mid-December? And then he was wrong? And wasn't the ground supposed to SHHHHAAAAAKKKKEEE? Not only is this fourth-degree hearsay in court but it is laughably weak even for arguing on a blog. Just when you thought this guy could sink no lower, he surprises us all...
Are racial epithets illegal?
Curious that Devon Sherwood stayed at the party after the alleged comment was made.
I'm now very upset.
Go to the Duke Chronicle web site and peruse the "News" article regarding those that attended the MLK debates today, the ones that "drew blood". You'll see that, for a change, a conservative point of view was represented at this annual event.
And guess what? Most that attended the debates, both liberal and conservative, agree that there's a point of view other than "I'm white and therefore I'm guilty."
Finally, someone (in this case students) are willing to stand up to the coalition and tell them "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore."
Why can't adults do the same? All we all wimps?
Perhaps they actually said, "We're not going to f--- these n----- b------- in our spacesuits." You know, the ones they must have been wearing in order for this "rape" to have taken place.
The stupidity of these people amazes me. She's using this information, unsubstantiated enough to be left out of all police reports, to protest the reinstatement of two of the accused who may or may not have made racial comments? What if the racial epithets were spoken by someone not on the Lacrosse team? Oops, I forgot, they don't count, we should only want to lynch the players. And she is an educator?? God help us all.
Maybe someone just heard some 'hip hop' playing in the "dancer's" cars when they drove up???
It is time for Holloway to depart Duke. It is that simple. It is actually well past time.
***Warning: this post contains profanity*** but it's not intended for shock value.
A lot of "if"'s and "alleged"'s in that CM piece isn't there?
Ok, here's another "what-if?".
Are the Duke lacrosse guys into 50 Cent?
A whole lot of 20-somethings are, enough to make 50's "50 Cent is the Future" CD a multi-platinum release. So "if" what the Durham Police heard and passed on to the Duke Police who passed on to Vice President Burness who passed it on to Karla Holloway who passed it on to Cash Michael, maybe what they heard was something like this-
"Y'all niggas is p*ssy
I'm ballin' now nigga now watch me (watch me)
Ain't nothin' you can do to stop me (stop Me)
You niggas get so emotional (emotional)
You remind me of my bitch.
Ain't no mothafuckas leave her alone cause she a bitch f*ck that nigga."
-50 Cent, from the album "50 Cent is the Future"
I'm not condoning hate speech and I know that's exactly what's being alleged here.
But, since millions are paying billions to hear such language, and such language has entered the casual lexicon, when does such language lose its sting?
I'm surprised that she used the word 'colored'.
this just in from al-AP:
Justice Department Won't Investigate Duke Lacrosse Prosecutor RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) - Officials from the Department of Justice have told a North Carolina congressman that it's too early to launch a federal investigation into the handling of the Duke lacrosse case.
Representative Walter Jones wrote Attorney General Alberto Gonzales last month. He asked that the Department of Justice investigate whether the district attorney prosecuting three Duke lacrosse players has violated the athletes' civil rights.
The three players are charged with sexual assault and kidnapping.
The Justice Department's Office of Legislative Affairs responded last week that it was premature to initiate a federal investigation while criminal charges and other investigations at the state level are ongoing.
The state attorney general's office took possession of all duke lacrosse files late this afternoon. Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong requested that a special prosecutor take over the case.
7:52...
Funny, yet brilliant...
That "journalist" goes on and on over alleged comments that were racially insensitive...
Has he ever once spoken out against the slurs and degrading of black women that can be readily heard in "hip hop?"
Has Cash told Paula Zahn?
And to think Cash and Karla see themselves as intellectual leaders! They are truly pathetic.
Would someone give me some background on Gottlieb's "straight-from-memory" notes?
What is the significance, etc?
This is posted a lot and I missed the relevance to the case, credibility, etc.
Thanks
"it does confirm a frame of mind at that party that alleged slurs which have been previously reported seem to allude to."
Ouch, that phrase is hard to parse. Is that Cash's writing or did he draw that phrase from Prof. Holloway?
Re criminalizing the "N" word. Look for some mischievous legislator to introduce a bill criminalizing the use of that word by any white person. Of course, it is illegal now if used when committing some other crime. It boosts whatever crime committed into a hate crime. But many folks would like to impose jail time for any white person's use of the word all by itself. Fitty cent's use of it is artistic license.
i have to say that i would agree with one thing the gang of 88 spews. And that is the ongoing white paternalism of blacks.
so, what if they did use the "n" word or any other insult. what does that matter? its not a crime. no lasting physical or psychological harm is done to anyone who hears it.
blacks would do well to learn this little poem i learned when i was 4 years old:
sticks and stones
may brake my bones
but words will never hurt me.
blacks should spend more time thinking about how this woman ended up single with three or four kids. they should try to figure out why so many of their number are in jail (and here's a hint, the answer is not racism). why are more than 70% of black kids born to single mothers?
these are the real issues in the black community. the name calling "outrages" are just play groud stuff. and when someone as bright as KC gives credence to the idea that racial insults deserve any attention, you act as a white patriarch and subtly suggest that blacks are no more mature than playground children.
WINDBAG
So freely and so casually do black people use the word nigger. They use it so often and so frequently, they barely raise an eyebrow when they hear it. In fact, most of the times when it is spoken it is used as a term of endearment, a superlative to describe a close friend.
Yet...
O' God of Earth and Alter if a white person uses the *exact same word*. No punishment, NONE, is severe enough for this unforgiveable "sin".
The hypocrisy is overwhelming.
Sickening.
Actually, Holloway was just repeating the lyrics of a rap song.
Apparently the accuser claimed in her police statement that the players said "We're going to f**k you black bitches" when the women returned to the house after the broomstick affair.
Ed Bradley asked Kim Roberts about this in their interview and she denied it happened.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/11/60minutes/main2082140_page3.shtml
Bradley Interview
Cash Michaels is loving all of this. After rousing the rabble at his site, I'm sure he checks this one and smiles from ear to ear.
Sometime's the 1st Amendment's a bitch. In any color.
What this is about is saving face. Holloway got Bit*h slapped by Dowd and her reply was so weak that she is embarrassed that it came out.
She now has discovered a new story, much like Crystal, that explains her outrage. BS
As they say at the football games.
"We must protect this house"
The house being the victim hood that can not be attacked.
It is so sad that this woman is being paid with my son's tuition. BARF.
Kemp
Is Cash Michaels now planning to write a column every time someone alleges that the "n" word was used anywhere?
I am astonished that all the racists and non-racists on this board are just accepting that this "CM event" happened
We already know about the source of this report it was CGM herself. As previously reported.
And it was an essential part of her creating the motive for her non-rape.
What Holloway did by sending that email was poison the campus dialogue for another 6 months.
If Burness did in fact talk to Cash (far from certain given the source), he has just subjected Duke to a huge civil penalty.
Karla Holloway, who up to now, was skating a thin line of slander just went throught the ice and has bought the Lacrosse families (all of them) a million dollar settlement.
This is not a trivial event. But one of the worst of this hoax.
7:43
"Yeah, Burness confirmed it. He's trying to give the 88 a reason to have condemned the lacrosse team. "
I agree with you 100%, and it sickens me.
This article gives an "air of credence" to racial epithets - based on a woman who has proved she has NO credibility. If stipper-Kim heard it, she certainly would have mentioned it right away.
Burness is trying to build cover for the 88, and likely Duke's legal liabilities for initially throwing the team under the bus.
But, THIS IS INCREDIBLE - by giving "air time" on this to "flame-thrower" Cash Michaels 10 monhs later, Burness/Duke is once again throwing the team under the bus !
This is really pathetic.
I would also say to Burness and Brodhead- you can pull the Duke Chronicle forum but, as we have already shown, we cannot be stopped.
Your continued slander of your students will cost you dearly.
Karla F (PhD Michigan State) is nuts.
Mr. Pepsi
This morning I was talking to a physics professor at my university, a major university in the north. I knew he was at Duke many years ago so I asked him what he thought about the case.
He replied that Durham local politics is very strange. Further, blacks and white leftists can add to a majority, but since they don't agree on everything holding a coalition together can be problematic.
As for Duke, "they gave those students up. They caved." He added that Duke was where PC started - it was the cutting edge. He told a story about how a professor in the English department had written a letter saying that anyone belonging to the National Association of Scholars (an organization to oppose PC) had no place at Duke, which caused a brouhaha, which in turn caused the head of the English Department and the provost to deny that the letter existed - whereupon the student newspaper printed it.
He asked me if I'd seen the most recent 60 Minutes, and that I should watch it to see the determination of the families; however, he thought that they might have trouble succeeding in a lawsuit in the Durham courts, because of the bizarre nature of the places.
At that point another physics professor came in, an African-American, who expressed surprise that 60 Minutes had run another piece on the affair: "I like to watch train wrecks, but I thought that case couldn't get any weaker." The first professor assured him that it had gotten even weaker.
I no longer am shocked. All the actual evidence, the photos, the third party witnesses, the forty lacrosse players who say nothing happened, the medical reports showing no injuries, the conficting police statements, the video of the victim dancing at the club and of course, the DNA, are all subject to skepticism of the highest proportion not only individually, but collectively as they believe that it all is untrue, so that people actually believe (not Nifong butsome people) that all of that information is defense spin but fourth or fifth hand hearsay is vested with the credibility of the word of God. The readers of this blog know, as the Duke parents said, there is literally nothing one could say that could dissuade them. People like Wendy Murphy who say that Nifong had no obligationt to disclose the DNA evidence, when even NIFONG says he did, just will not ever ever confront reality.
I just finished reading The Innocent Man, by John Grisham, and the Oklahoma prosecutor in that case refused to believe in the Defendants' innocence despite multiple DNA tests.
Crazy.
Who is accepting the event happened? I am not accepting anything. Mr. Michaels reports that some anonymous policeman said that some anonymous person allegedly overheard yet another anonymous person making this remark. I don't find this convincing at all.
This is exactly why this can never go to trial.
OJ got off because Mark Fuhrman's credibility among black jurors was destroyed based on a witness/tape of him dropping the "n-bomb" some 10 years prior - having said he never used the "word".
What would the chances of these guys be ? Karla would happily be a witness for the Prosecution, I'm afraid.
Pathetic situation at Duke and in Durham.
ps-to prior post. I agree that Cash baby most certainly visits all these blogs after every flame he throws - Hi Cash !
That's what I call triple hearsay *2.
The Duke Chronicle forum hasn't been pulled. There's no longer a button marked "Message Board" on the home page for some reason, but if you hit the "Lacrosse Coverage" icon-thingy it takes you to the board, and people are still posting.
Laughable. The Durham mantra:
When the facts get in the way, just invent outrageous lies that cannot be confirmed.
Maybe the Engineering Department can moonlight with Professor Coleman, and they can give courses on personal honor and integrity. These qualities seem to be sorely missed in Durham these days.
-Esquire-
-Maryland-
/sarcasm
Why should I need to defend Cash Michael's belief that 2+2=5?
/endsarcasm
This has gone from the surreal to the Theater of the Absurd. Hard to know whether to laugh or cry.
Clearly, the G88 is now desperate and acting out like children. As they see the legal case unraveling, their strategy now is to go on the offensive. The case is no longer about rape; it's about something much worse: institutionalized racism. Now, like the accsuer, they too are victims--the victims of racist bloggers and racist students in their classes.
Holloway and her ilk will now demand more money and more positions for African-American Studies. The administration will cave and give them what they want.
That, I'm afraid to say, is the future. Unless of course, those who believe in justice (including true justice for the G88) fight for what's right until the bitter end.
So I heard from someone at Duke
who heard it from someone,
who overheard someone else talking on a walkie talkie
Who was told something by unknown parties
that the Duke 88 are a joke.
So apparently the only person who has reported actually hearing this alleged remark first-hand is Precious herself, in her initial police statement. And Kim, who was with her, told Ed Bradley, "I just don't remember it that way at all." And, ermmm, that's it.
That's Cash Michaels' breathless "exclusive," and the reason for Karla Holloway's tragic resignation from a committee she didn't want to be on in the first place.
I am again astonished that the normally sage posters on this board are clueless about the damage Holloway just did.
She showed the blog Holligans good.
It has little to do with Cash.
If Case is correct about what happened (always debatable), Holloway sent her email to Duke colleagues (and got a VP of Duke to second her slander in another email to faculty).
She has in essence just used the nuclear option...and injected something into the black memory of this case that cannot be retracted.
Y'all laugh it off.
But it generated this letter today
from the G88-1
For it was not a racial epithet that she claims was said (6th hand though it be), but a vertiable _admission of guilt_
It matters little to us that it was just another lie by CGM.
But Holloway, in fact, just spread the BIG LIE to her constituency.
And it will resound for a long, long time.
(and explains why the MSM covered her story of committee quitting initially- but without sharing her email, which undoubtedly they had in hand)
Dark Helmet: I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
Lone Starr: What's that make us?
Dark Helmet: Absolutely nothing!
BTW, the way KC and bloggers here, you were just played by the G88 who coordinated their release of the email to Cash, with the launch of their website (now down) and their leaked story to Stancill.
You were played, blog holligans.
Schooled by a bunch of Marxists and race-baiters.
What do you plan to do in response?
Windbag 8:11 asks,
Why are so many black women single mothers?
I have an answer:
Demographics
Ms Holloway should really change where she teaches since she is obviously so "mistreated" and "misunderstood" and (horrors!) "discriminated against" at Duke -- remember everyone she is the Victim. So should I send her an email suggesting she go teach at one of the local middle schools? She will fit right in with that maturity level--- "Gee - someone told me, who heard from someone, who heard from someone that you said something mean about someone else...." I don't know whether to laugh or just scream with frustration. This person is a chaired professor. God what a disgrace.
9:25
Mel brooks Space balls
cute
CONCERNEDDUKEFACULTY.ORG
Admin Name: rodrigo dorfman
Admin Street1: 2303 west knox street
Admin Street2:
Admin Street3:
Admin City: durham
Admin State/Province: North Carolina
Admin Postal Code: 27705
Admin Country: US
Admin Phone: +1.9194756932
Admin Phone Ext.:
Admin FAX:
Admin FAX Ext.:
Admin Email: rodrigo@melloweb.com
I would love to hear Bill Cosby's take on all of this, especially CGM's way of life. Mr. Cosby has been incredibly honest about race issues, and, in the process, he has absolutely freaked out all the revrums.
William Chafe's handling of this case is really sad.
May be it's not a concidence that my labor historian's survey course (at a school up North) of U.S. history assigned both Peter Wood's Black Majority and William Chafe's Civilities and Civil Rights.
This article is trash. Wonder if Cashs contacts in Durham have dried up when they found out he lived in Cary. Cash was fair at the NAH NAH NAH NA - I knew something you don't know game. He missed his big break because he was playing it to cute. He had the nerve to critize Ed Bradley.
Mr. Cosby also knows a little something about being falsely accused of a sex crime.
This is weird. A website called www.concerneddukefaculty.org is set up, posts a defense of the listening statement ostesibly by most of the 88 and others, and has now been taken down. According to 9:32, the administrator is (or was) Rodrigo Dorfman. Ariel Dorfman was one of the 88. Anyone know what's going on?
Anon 9:25PM asks:
BTW, the way KC and bloggers here, you were just played by the G88 who coordinated their release of the email to Cash, with the launch of their website (now down) and their leaked story to Stancill.
You were played, blog holligans.
Schooled by a bunch of Marxists and race-baiters.
What do you plan to do in response?
See how big the settlement is when the law suit is over?
Ariel Dorfman's family actually has a lot a money, some of which they may have just given to the lacrosse team.
Nice start, but you still just got played big-time.
8:57 OJ got off because the black community knew who the juriers were and where they lived. Johnnie Cochran was a great lawyer, as was "Marine to Marine" - F Lee Baily. Very hard to convict people who can hire the best defense. Also Marcia Clark could not indict let alone convict a ham sandwich.
Do the Duke 88 know who much they are destorying Duke's reputation?
She considers a non verify piece of hearsay as evidence or is she just adding to the racial fires in the case?
She should talk to her lawyer. She added additional proof that she is out to exploit the Lax players for her agenda.
Now those po' 88ers feel pain because of "the misperception that the authors of the [Listening] ad prejudged the rape case."
I, too, feel pain...because I remember how I definitely misperceived back then that they had prejudged the rape case, and when I re-read their ad today, I found I still misperceive their statements exactly the same damn way.
In fact, reading anything they have to say is quite painful, because I misperceive it as total and complete lying crap.
all iknow is, the good will triumph over evil. see.e. ww ii, the cold war, and eventually, war v. terrorism (including academic terrorism by the likes of G88).
Michaels, Burness and Holloway will not escape discovery by civil lawyers waiting in the wings to get their hands around this case.It's only a matter of time and the liers will have to face up to the scrutiny of the courts.
Man, all the erudite posts, commentary, and discussion aside, this blog is excellent entertainment.
I love watching train wrecks!
To 9:25
Please explain how the bloggers were taken by the G88.
Oh, I forgot, they also leaked it to Drudge.
How does it feel to be schooled by Karla Holloway?
Odd that such a staunch opponent of the appalling fascist Pinochet -- torturer and despoiler of democracy and the rule of law --- should endorse a lynch mob of would-be castraters and be so cavalier about the due process rights of his own students.
9:47 and 9:43: How stupid are you exactly.
You actually think this was about civil discourse
These are Marxists, Duke's reputation means nothing to them.
They loath Duke and its students.
They are breaking some eggs. Get it.
Rodrigo Dorfman is Professor Ariel Dorfman'son.
I'm not surprised at the Cash Michaels article. He has lost all sort of fairness and now can on appeal to a very small racist group of readers. His career is now just as a radical AA. We won't be seeing him anchor any News programs in the future. No one can take him as a serious jounalist or as a source of commentary.
Way to break into the big time.
I lay this debacle right at the feet of KC and BA and their pitiless calls for civility.
There is a reason why liberatarians fail at every turn.
And if Mr. Dorfman really feels that Duke University -- which has shown him hospitality and pays him handsomely -- is such a hotbed of racism and sexism as the listening ad stated ("We go to class with racist classmates... we go to gym with racists"), why doesn't he go and work somewhere more congenial? He's one of the few Gang of 88 members who could.
9:51p Let me explain it to you, SLOWLY
Cash was also played. Jane Stancill was either played or was a willing accomplice.
We are talking tonight about an _intentional_ conspiracy between leftist Duke faculty to slander their students in a concerted media campaign.
They are fighting back, doofus.
Get it.
I can't imagine what it is like to be Paula Zahn and talking to the Accuser's cousin and here the cousin state words to the effect of:
"She's just not the type of person to make this sort of thing up.
Why the follow-up question "You mean this time, right?" wasn't asked is proof positive CNN is run by race/victim industry doormats/mouthpieces. Letting that question go unasked is the journalism equivalent of dying from starvation inside a SuperWalmart: HOW DO YOUR INVOLUNTARY MUSCLE MOVEMENTS NOT ASK THAT QUESTION IN KNEE-JERK RESPONSE TO THE AUDACITY IT TOOK TO MAKE THE TRIGGERING ASSERTION?
How would Paula respond to the following statements?
"I've never seen a play I didn't enjoy." -Mary Todd Lincoln, May 1865.
"I'm down with non-violent protests." Timothy McVeigh, June 2003.
"Prescription drugs are dangerous and should be avoided at all costs." Rush Limbaugh, July 2006.
Fellow Doofuses:
Our agenda is simple: how to remove Richard Brodhead, and replace him someone who will have the courage to defund the sinecures populated by the academic parasites--racist incompetents, feminist incompetents, and queer theory incompetents. Duke has to go global, and to enhance its reputation it has to emphasize greatness--not mediocrity.
The G88 is in an extremely vulnerable position right now--and they know it. Members of the G88 who have a legitimate resume probably have nothing to fear, but for the G88's star, racist lightweights...?
Before she became a member of the G88, Karla Holloway was just another academic welfare recipient--a joke. Now SHE HAS BECOME A PROBLEM. Unbelievably, she prejudged and precondemned 3 students in good standing who also happened to have parents that contributed to her welfare check--why? Because the racial scenario fit in with her--uh huh--"field of endeavor."
The G88's monumental fuck-up will legitimize serious discussions about defunding the cultures of crap quite interesting--and funding cultures of genius.
The question becomes, Does the Duke community have the will to change things?
Let's delete the G88.
RP
Holloway is Don Quixote's Evil Twin. They are both fighting Nonexistent Monsters, although the resemblance ends there. Quixote was driven by the best of intentions expressed by humanity. Holloways motivations are pure evil. In addition, Quixote really believed the illusions in his mind, and Holloway KNOWS she is making this stuff up.
I see that Kim Curtis signed the letter at www.concerneddukefaculty.org. It is good to know that it is a "misperception that the [she] prejudged the rape case".
I feel better now. I am sure parents of potential Duke Students feel better as well.
I dunno about being schooled by the 88 and Holloway, or even if it much matters what they do at this point.
It would be far greater punishment to have to read any of Holloway's writings out loud for any length of time.
Try it. You'll see what I mean.
You'll laugh. You'll cry. You'll heave.
This story has exactly the same feel about it as he one about the 2 million dollars supposedly offered to the accuser to go away. 4th hand rumor that just happens to gratify a need, falls apart on logic grounds more less instantly, is believed by some forever.
Whatever. When Crytal remembers yet another, new and improved, version of her date-with-destiny, some will believe that as well. The game is to keep pounding that number smaller.
To 9:50:
I'll admit to not being the brightest bulb, but I'm not certain that I see how the bloggers were taken by the G88. Ok, so the G88 has this massive conspiracy that involves Cash and Drudge, the Duke administration and the techies who run the website, etc.
So what?
Their little game will is pathetic and will soon crash and burn.
And so your point is . . . what?
Please share your brilliance with the rest of us dolts.
You fools. There is a reason why Leftists dominate academia, and KC has to fight for tenure.
They know how to fight dirty. Joe Cheshire knows how to fight dirty.
Y'all are poseurs. No holligans at all.
Justice doesn't just happen
Please, please. Yeah, I am to blame for Karla Holloway's pathetic "I am the REAL victim here" mentality.
Please remember, 9:55, that I was pounding away on this story last April when most of the damned country -- including some readers here -- thought these guys were guilty of rape. I got the hate mail and got the threats, including threats to my family, so screw you. I think I know something about civility and incivility.
I pulled the website up, but then could not get it a minute later, which tells me they are nervous about it. Of course, all they did was to make things worse, since they had THANKED the people who were holding up CASTRATE signs and the like. I hate to tell these people that nine months later, they cannot come back and say, "Oh, we didn't mean to thank the people who openly accused these players of rape."
No, that little doggie won't hunt.
I did notice that Cathy Davidson did not sign this one, and I would be interested to see who signed the first letter, but not the second one.
But, no, I did not make these people write their pathetic little letter. Heck, you would think that at Duke, they would have some real work to do instead of trying to cover their asses.
As for the Cash article, that is pure, unadulterated crap, and he knows it. All Burness and Holloway are doing is making it worse, and I supposed Burness really wants to lose his job, since repeating a sixth-hand statement is a heck of a good way to do that.
Cash is the largest rotund in the black enabling press in NC.
The guy is a joke , a ringmaster in the black enabler 3 ring circus.
This man agitates to gain popularity amongst his black readers. Cash is afraid of being labelled an Uncle Tom.
If Brodhead had any Ba*** he would commence a clean out of the hangers on in the University. Just do it Mr Brodhead...be good chap won't you.
Holloway and company need to move on to some other place to stir the race pot.
Durham does not need you , it needs to heal! They are the FESTERING puss that will continue to bubble and cause Durham and Duke more trouble.
I will not be sending any of my kin to this HOT bed of racial hatred from the left wing Black enablers.
Duke requires cleansing from top to bottom of its tutorial staff.
Hollaway is the "EALDORDEOFOL" at Duke University.
9:39 PM
try this link
No, BA (slowly so you can get it), it means that the site is getting thousands of hits from Drudge and the server can't keep up.
You are dedicated, I'll give you that. But you seem never to have encountered Marxists before.
They are fighting to win this one.
I always thought it was "let's play radio"....
"come in Tokyo"...
one question...
who cares?
For Burness to give any sort of interview to Cash Michaels, let alone giving the answers he supposedly gave, was an act of gross incompetence if his job description includes projecting a good public image of Duke.
new york,
If you are reading this re: your last post on the Racism thread.
I do agree with most of what you say. The results of the drug war are racist in effect not intent.
However, this has been going on for so long and is so well known that at least at the highest levels it has become racist.
As I pointed out on some thread on this blog and I'm sure you concur, if prohibition was policed not just on the basis of easy catches but on the actual users and dealers (i.e. more enforcement in the white community) it would be over in a year or less.
See my link on Demographics above for more on the effect on the black community.
Then imagine yourself in a poor black neighborhood. I'm sure from that vantage point it looks like poor blacks are being targeted. Which as you admit is true.
This has to generate a huge sense of grievance. Which the demagogues play on.
Why do most people think that poor black folks are in general a bunch of whacked out druggies? Because, that is who the police target.
I think race relations would improve immeasurably if we ended the drug war.
Profile of 10:10 (and other posts) who keeps repeating "slowly" and repeats the mantra that we have been "played."
1. PhD or a PhD-drop out in the humanities or sociology (possibly G-10 at a large state university)
2. Ff some academic ability (as in middling)
3. Currently a "freelance" writer.
Sherlock Holmes
you think that's bad; wait a day or two until you see what's coming. Right KC?
Anon 9:48 PM,
Is what is known in the Marxist trade as an agent provocateur.
His job is to make some hot head do something intemperate.
Nice to see cooler heads are prevailing.
Where does one start?
"While the racist remark allegedly made by some party attendees is not clear evidence that a rape or sexual assault indeed occurred, as the accuser maintains, it does confirm a frame of mind at that party that alleged slurs which have been previously reported seem to allude to."
As has been writen, how does something that "may or may not" have happened "confirm" anything, and upon what does Michaels base his conclusion?
"It may also be why Durham police investigators felt that an assault may have indeed happened."
"It"? The epithet? Or the accusation of an epithet? Or the fact that Holloway claimed an epithet? "May" be? The sentence would be laughed out of high school journalism.
"Holloway went on to recall how last spring, while she was in Mr. Burness’ office . . ."
Oh, Holloway gets to "recall." Not "claim"? Not "allege"? Does Reade get to "recall" he was miles away at time?
". . . she overheard him speaking with Duke Campus police by phone."
Ah yes, telephone indeed. Holloway eavesdrops on one half of a conversation conducted by Burness with Duke Campus police reporting an allegation of something . . . okay, KC has covered the custody.
I'm not done. But I need a drink.
As a Duke alum and lawyer, I find it embarrassing and absolutely astounding that Holloway, Chafe and now even Burness seem, as a basis for explaining the Chronicle ad, to be on a course of self- and University-destruction. They are playing with fire by needless and stupid repetition of hearsay that Holloway says "deserves a hearing" (to quote Holloway--"it is legally hearsay" and Burness "I knew it was not clear who made them.." ). Hearsay has no value; and they know this. Did they seek personal legal advice when they wrote these emails and made the statements? If not, they need to seek legal counsel, not University counsel, but their own private counsel...now. It is fundamental that due process recognizes single-hearsay, not to mention that which is 5 or 6 times removed, deprives an accused of the right of cross examination. They are all digging very deep and expensive holes for themselves. To quote Burness, "it may be difficult for you to believe...." Well, he got that right. This is abominable, amateurish, and reprehensible. Shame on these people...they are dishonoring and needlessly damaging a fine University by ill-conceived attempts to patch up the damage caused by the advertisement, which was nothing more than fuel thrown on a fire. At least Chafe should know of the trial of Sir Walter Raleigh...or perhaps he doesn't.
Holloway working on the principle :If I throw enough SH** some will stick !
If Mr Brodhead does not do his usual Pontius Pilot impression, gets a BACKBONE and rids his University of this Marxist group, Duke will be toast and Durham will have bitten the hand that feeds it !
I truly hope the 3 boys families bankrupt this University for its apathy in controlling its luny left !
10:26 M.Simon.
Very perceptive observations.
-----------
Agent provocateur
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An agent provocateur (plural: agents provocateurs, French language, "inciting agent") is a person who secretly disrupts a group's activities from within the group. Agents provocateurs typically represent the interests of another group, or are agents directly assigned to provoke unrest, violence, debate, or argument by or within a group while acting as a member of the group.
An agent provocateur is often a police officer that encourages suspects to carry out a crime under conditions where evidence can be obtained; or who suggests the commission of a crime to another, in hopes they will go along with the suggestion, so they may be convicted of the crime. These are sometimes called sting operations.
One common use of Agents provocateurs is to investigate consensual or victimless crimes; since each participant in such crimes are willing participants, it is difficult for the authorities to discover such crimes without the use of undercover agents.
Agents provocateurs are also used against political opponents. Here, it has been documented that provocateurs deliberately carry out or seek to incite counter-productive and/or ineffective acts, in order to foster public disdain for the group and provide a pretext for aggression; and to worsen the punishments its members are liable for. Terrorists sometimes act as agents provocateurs when they seek to provoke government repression that they hope will alienate their potential constituency from the government in question, and thus increase support for themselves (as the opponents of the government in question). In this sense, provocation may be combined with endorsement terrorism.
Within the United States the COINTELPRO program of the Federal Bureau of Investigation had FBI agents posing as political radicals in order to disrupt the activities of radical political groups in the U.S., such as the Black Panthers, Ku Klux Klan, and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. The activities of agents provocateurs against dissidents in Imperial Russia was one of the grievances that led to the Russian Revolution of 1917.
New York Police officers acted as agents provocateurs during protests against the Republican National Convention in New York City. In at least two instances, actions of undercover police officers posing as demonstrators changed the outcome of protest actions there, leading to scuffles between demonstrators and uniformed police, and arrests of demonstrators.[1]
The activities of agents provocateurs pose a number of ethical and legal issues. Within common law jurisdictions, the law of entrapment seeks to discern whether the provocateur's target intended to commit the crime he participated in with the provocateur, or whether the suggestion to commit the crime began with the provocateur. It is also debatable whether the institutionalized deception that the use of agents provocateurs implies is in fact more harmful to the social order than the various consensual offenses typically investigated by provocateurs.
In various European countries Agent Provocateur is an official legal term for a person who approaches other people with a bribe offer, with consent of the police. It has proved fairly effective in combating corruption especially in former Eastern European countries.
An Open Letter to the Duke Community
In the spring of 2006, the Duke community was rocked by terrible news. We heard that a woman hired to perform at a party thrown by our lacrosse team had accused members of the team of raping her. Neighbors, we were told, heard racial epithets called out at the woman as she departed the party. The criminal proceedings and the media frenzy which followed are perhaps beginning to wind down. For us at Duke, the issues raised by the incident, and by our community's responses to it, are not.
In April, a group of Duke faculty members published an advertisement in The Chronicle. The ad, titled "What does a Social Disaster Sound Like?" was mostly a compilation of statements made by Duke students in response to the incident and its immediate aftermath. This ad has figured in many discussions of the event and of the University's response. It has been broadly, and often intentionally, misread. We urge everyone to read the original ad, available at http://listening.nfshost.com/listening.htm. We have. Some of us were among the ad's signers.
The ad has been read as a comment on the alleged rape, the team party, or the specific students accused. Worse, it has been read as rendering a judgment in the case. We understand the ad instead as a call to action on important, longstanding issues on and around our campus, an attempt to channel the attention generated by the incident to addressing these. We reject all attempts to try the case outside the courts, and stand firmly by the principle of the presumption of innocence.
As a statement about campus culture, the ad deplores a "Social Disaster," as described in the student statements, which feature racism, segregation, isolation, and sexism as ongoing problems before the scandal broke, exacerbated by the heightened tensions in its immediate aftermath. The disaster is the atmosphere that allows sexism, racism, and sexual violence to be so prevalent on campus. The ad's statement that the problem "won't end with what the police say or the court decides" is as clearly true now as it was then. Whatever its conclusions, the legal process will not resolve these problems.
The ad thanked "the students speaking individually and...the protesters making collective noise." We do not endorse every demonstration that took place at the time. We appreciate the efforts of those who used the attention the incident generated to raise issues of discrimination and violence.
There have been public calls to the authors to retract the ad or apologize for it, as well as calls for action against them and attacks on their character. We reject all of these. We think the ad's authors were right to give voice to the students quoted, whose suffering is real. We also acknowledge the pain that has been generated by what we believe is a misperception that the authors of the ad prejudged the rape case.
We stand by the claim that issues of race and sexual violence on campus are real, and we join the ad's call to all of us at Duke to do something about this. We hope that the Duke community will emerge from this tragedy as a better place for all of us to live, study, and work.
Click for list of Concerned Faculty
Slightly OT.
I looked at the Duke Chronicle.
Do you note that on the first page they are advertising women's self-defense products?
Where,I asked the Chronicle, were the gang of 88 and the potbangers when whatever it is that requires women's self-defense products started?
The entire Duke community has been up in arms about a non-event but regular assaults on women--which is both reported more or less sotto voce and the reason for spending money on self-defense items--get squat.
Is there something wrong here, or do I need new glasses?
B
10:10 PM:
Have you ever read my stuff? I dump on Marxists all the time. Read my piece on Duke's Reichstag Fire. I actually did doctoral studies in Marxism and understand the theories and practices pretty well. Marxism is even more screwed up than most people realize.
But read some of my articles on the Duke faculty and you will see that I took off the gloves a long time ago. What I will NOT do is get into a pissing match with individual faculty members there. That just will not do, and it is not out of respect for them.
Do you think I actually respect people like Houston Baker? The guy is a fraud, as are many of the faux scholars in the race/gender/class studies programs at Duke and elsewhere. But I always try to attack the ideas and expose them, as opposed to getting into a nasty email exchange with little people like Baker. Gets my blood pressure up to high.
10:26 Perceptive. But wrong.
Y'all are stung at the moment and realize at some level the signifiance of what just went down.
You are all just too bull-headed to admit it.
And a bit hurt by your lack of insight that your movement to rid Duke of the G88 could be so easily sidestepped by a direct playing of the race card by Holloway to the wider faculty and the administration.
We shall see.
But it appears that Holloway just won by default.
"sexual violence" is referred to in the new letter.
is that code for black-on-white rape?
anon 10:31PM,
I was a Marxist in my youth so I am quite familiar with the use of such agents by and against Marxists.
Now a days I'm a libertarian leaning Republican.
I've come a long way baby. LOL.
Now this is funny. From the duke faculty's Open Letter -
"We do not endorse every demonstration that took place at the time"
That's as mature as "I didn't do it - you didn't see me"
Intellectual dishonesty, in full bloom.
10:16:
Here is what I wrote on the Drug War five years ago.
http://www.mises.org/story/959
Gene Callahan and I also had an anti-drug war piece on racial profiling in the August/Sept. 2001 issue of Reason Magazine.
I agree with you wholeheartedly.
anyone care to estimate what duke's national rank would be if all the professors and students at duke shared karla holloway's cognitive genius?
RP
To BA: Then your encounters with Marxists have been too theoretical to really what they are capable of.
I know a different reality.
And remind you that there were thing called communist regimes. Where very real horrors happened perpetrated by _individuals_ (often intellectuals)
G88 born at a different place and time.
Anon. 10:39PM,
Give it up.
You are now seen for what you are.
And worse for you you are seen as a joke.
There are bigger issues at stake than your faux petulance.
However, as I tell all such agents, if something is to be done, you do it.
Michaels says the alleged racist remark "confirms" a frame of mind at the party. How in hell does something that's only alleged and reported fifth hand confirm anything?
10:34 PM - Who signed the open letter?
May be another word for 10:39 is um a "Troll"?
At this point, Karla has opened herself up for civil court. I hope that Duke University does not indemnify Karla Holloway for what are clearly her own personal actions and for what I hope a jury will determine is libel. Good luck Karla! Hope you have decent insurance!
Michael Gaynor - I am a female. We only know what people tell us. Their stories are not always true. Woman frequently say they were raped - when their is no evidence or physical signs. The joke in the ED is they got caught and yelled rape. This happens more often than most people want to believe.
10:44
It doesn't advance your argument to use nigger.
What are you trying to say, without the BS words thrown in?
RP
bill,
Thanks.
I'm turning it into a clickable link:
mises.org/story/959"/
========
Lew Rockwell and I used to correspond frequently a few years back. I just sent him an e-mail because of something you wrote. (on a different topic) Your writing is what made me visit the site.
was posted yesterday before TL removed it that Cash actually owns this.
http://www.ourheartsworld.com/
10.39
GO AWAY CASH!
I am with 9:15, and still I would have to check the police report to see if the accuser actually made this claim. Even if she did, Ms. Holloway's Marxist counterattack has about as much firepower as a very small water balloon, except amongst her own fan club, of course--which probably now includes mare than a few of Durham's most gullible residents. Maybe Duff Wilson will pick this up for the NYT tomorrow "Accuser" (or "Previously Unreported and Still Unrevealed Mystery Witness") "Overhears Confession to Crime before Rape!" Can't wait for that one. Certainly, Duke should have an internal investigation. It's not clear to me what a Duke investigation could possibly add to the mounds of evidence already available about the events of March 13-14, but someone really should try to find out what insidious agent (dementers, perhaps) attacked the Group of 88 and start anti-venom immediately--it is not clear this Group can be saved.
Observer
Karla Holloway is running on fumes. She needs to take a number and hire a lawyer. Tenure is hard to enjoy when you're broke. I will be disappointed if she doesn't get sued before this is over. Dispicable.
This is Wonderland - that this fringe quasi-proff is the voice of duke is .....I can't find the words.
Never in a million years did she ever imagine she would have such a platform for her agenda of pity.
Incredible.
KC: As I intimated yesterday, your blog community has now completed its final inevitable evolution into a self-referential cult. Under its benign Deist godhead.
But that's where things stand in the land of DIW.
I have to admit I never expected to see such classic listserv death throes as today's accusations of agent provocateur.
Watching it grow. And now watching it wallowing in intolerance and blowhard tendencies is sad, as it always is. The play of ideas and differing concerns essentially gone. But so it goes.
I hope you have enough room to include the evolution of this little community as part of the backstory of your book. When the time comes. If it comes.
One wonders what the next forum will be for effective action in this case -since it is quite clear from the events of today that this case is far, far, far from over.
But one never knows...it is instructive to remember that at the beginning it was the CourtTV board (fer christsakes) that was the locus of Justice.
It could happen anywhere.
ATTORNEYS
Is there a high probability that a defamation suit against Holloway would be successful?
Duke Mom
Anon 10:44PM,
I'm sure it will surprise you that the "racists" who wrote "Bell Curve" suggested that a negative income tax was a good idea for the very reasons you state.
It is very hard to make a decent living on manual labor or even moderate intellectual labor these days.
So yes the high performers are going have to, to a certain extent, help cary the weaker ones. The alternative is civil war. A moderate amount of welfare is cheaper.
Note: I'm a Republican and a great believer in individual liberty. None the less, reality has changed. Raw labor is not worth what it once was in America.
10:58
Intolerane defines this board?
That's your opinion. Why don't you respond to my 10pm post, entitled "Fellow Doofuses"?
Unless you deem it intolerant.
RP
Attorneys: As to a different "mystery witness," Jeffrey Toobin, J.D., said on Paula Z's program tonight that we have not heard the D.A.'s evidence, and that there might be a witness who corroborates the AV's claims. But I thought the D.A. has already had to disclose any such witness. Is Toobin just wrong? Thanks for your input.
To finish quickly:
"On CBS News’ “60 Minutes’ last Sunday, the parents of the three indicted defendants - Dave Evans, 23; Collin Finnerty, 20; and Reade Seligmann, 20 – acknowledged that their sons were wrong to be part of a party where a good deal of underage drinking and the hiring of strippers was going on."
This will be one of the last two thin reeds the Michaels and Holloways of the world will cling to: she said/he said (or rather, she said/she said/she said/she said), plus, "Eek! 19 year-olds with booze!" Enough has been said on this site about both, except that these will be the two issues brought up again and again, to the end of time.
"The party remark isn’t the only development in the Duke lacrosse case this week."
Oh? Do tell.
"In the aftermath of Durham District Attorney Mike Nifong officially asking the NC State Attorney General’s Office to take over the Duke alleged sexual assault and kidnapping case, the NC State Bar Association Council, meeting this week, is expected to add charges against Nifong related to hiding evidence, to the earlier allegations of deceit and fraud that forced the embattled D.A. to recuse himself last week."
Oh. That.
"In an unrelated matter, U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales says in a letter to a North Carolina congressman that it would be “premature to initiate a federal investigation pending a criminal trial” into allegations of Nifong violating the civil rights of the three white defendants. Cong. Walter Jones [R-3-NC] had repeatedly petitioned the US Justice Dept. to probe Nifong’s actions."
"Unrelated matter"? Unrelated freaking matter?
"If Nifong is found guilty, he could lose his law license for up to five years, and even be drummed out of office."
"EVEN be drummed out of office"? Well, yes, presumably it might be a tad inconvenient for Nifong to stay on as Durham DA without a law license.
Okay, I give up. All over the country, journalism students are attuned to the difficulties of breaking in. They have to hustle up summer internships, produce oceans of ink for crap wages, gradually work their way in. Sportswriters spend decades covering high school baseball, waiting for Frank Deford to die so everyone else in the business can move up a notch.
And this guy pulls a paycheck? And his editor has the title of "editor"? I have ten students in my freshman comp class who could not only do it right, but could point to where Michaels did it wrong.
K.C.,
Please remove the filth at 10:44 PM.
Cochise's Enchilada
10:39,
The only thing Holloway has won is a reputation for immature gossip spreading. She is grasping at straws because she sees how this case is falling apart. She is desperately reaching for something, anything to justify her actions of the last 9 months. She is pathetic and a sorry excuse for an educator. And I hope she pays for it.
M Simon
Do you also support academic welfare programs at places like Duke that nourish low-performing parasites like Holloway with big-bucks paychecks?
RP
What if we each contribute $10 to the legal defense fund set up for the three men?
anon 11:05PM,
Seems like a wallow in self hate to me. However, psychological diagnosis is not my stock in trade.
Hate is a blinder. Best avoided if you can help it. If not it would be wise to seek competent medical or spiritual advice.
BTW as long as you are on a roll, any suggestions as to what is to be done?
RP,
There is a difference between providing a floor and providing a feather bed.
Floors are affordable. Feather beds not so much.
The way to fix all that is to end AA so that people are not promoted beyond their level of competence.
Those at the lowest level should have a floor under them.
One question for conchise's enchilada. Are you doubling as esquire? Aren't you the same person?
Methinks you are.
8:00pm
"Would someone give me some background on Gottlieb's "straight-from-memory" notes?"
Sargent Gottlieb was a lead investigator in this case until a couple of months ago. He participated in interviews with the accuser, photo id sessions, etc. Yet his notes regarding the investigation were not turned over to the defense until July -- a full 4 months after the investigation started. PD was required, by court order, to turn over all notes (hand written/typed), tape recordings, etc. related to this case. In July, Gottlieb turned in a 33 page type written report and only 2 pages of written notes. Basically his "report', 4 monthly late, was straight from memory. His report contradicted other officers hand written notes and accounts. There are a couple of good articles on this:
LieStoppers - Enough from Duff (Duff is a NYT reporter who based a story on Gottlieb's lies)
http://liestoppers.blogspot.com/2006/08/enough-from-duff.html
And Joseph Neff, an N&O reporter who has done an excellent job of reporting on this case (and has had access to all of the evidence turned over to the defense by Nifong i.e. 'discovery)
http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/479650.html
The most telling (in my opinion) discrepancy in Gottlieb's notes was the accuser's description of her attackers. Gottlieb's report documents the accusers descriptions entirely different that Officer Himan who was at the same interview. Amazingly Gottlieb's notes describe Collin Finnerty to a "T" while Himan's notes could not possibly have included Collin.
Happy reading.
anon. 11:05PM,
I do believe the boys will be well compensated for this (probably not what the suffering is worth, but in the 10s of millions at least). Michaels is just blowing smoke.
As we used to say in 'Nam - don't mean nothin'.
FWIW, RP, I like your posts a lot, especially that one, which clearly outlines what needs to happen if people actually want to carry the fight (and it is a fight).
I only disagree that the G88 are in a weak position.
As one interested in the health of Duke (and in academic freedom everywhere), I am forced to point out that _we_ suffered a serious defeat today, and in a very substantial way.
And more troubling...
What I saw here tonite was that there are no serious effective fighters (or no fight left) here.
That's OK. The fight will emerge elsewhere. With some of the same characters, some different.
That is what is most beautiful about the net.
A place where someone can devote a huge fraction of ones life over the last 9 months and 4 days (exactly) working this case from every angle. With relentless energy (and minor degree of creativity)
And then be called an agent provocateur by some blowhard who joined this forum 2 weeks ago.
That _is_ a beautiful thing.
See you around the net, RP. I am done here.
The first paragraph of the Cash Michaels' article cited in this post reads,
"A top Duke University official confirms that last spring, after allegations that a black exotic dancer was raped at a drunken Duke lacrosse player party made headlines, Duke Campus Police told him that when she and the second dancer first got there, unidentified white males inside were overheard saying, 'Oh no. We’re not going to f—k a nigger bitch.'"
So if a casual reader of the Wilmington Journal gets through the first part of the article, what will s/he walk away with--a fanciful recounting of fourth-hand hearsay, or "whatever happened was bad enough"?
Farther down, the body of the article is lightly salted with qualifiers. Michaels is a reporter, after all. Any impressions a reader might get... are just that.
Michaels is also a master of the Variously Parseable Sentence. Example:
"Reportedly one of the players brandished a broomstick at the women, which frightened them so much, they cut the dance short and immediately ran into the bathroom for safety."
Does this mean,
"Reportedly one of the players brandished a broomstick at the women, which [is known to have] frightened them so much, they cut the dance short and immediately ran into the bathroom [, rationally fearing] for [their] safety."
Or does it mean,
"Reportedly one of the players brandished a broomstick at the women, which [the alleged victim but not her partner sometimes claimed] frightened them so much, they cut the dance short and [went] into the bathroom [, with the alleged victim but not her partner sometimes later claiming was done in fear of her] safety."
The second parsing may not be true in all its details, but it's certainly closer to what has been made public than the first parsing--or Michaels' original words.
Cash Michaels' article reminds me of blogger Patterico's explanations of how his bete noire, the Los Angeles Times, tries to fool the unwary reader. Here is an old example, "The Power of the Jump."
MS,
I wish it were that simple.
Ever heard the expression, "Brilliant like Spike Lee"? I occasionally hear it on film sets. It refers to the fact that Lee is an incredibly overrated filmmaker. The crack could be directed to anyone on the set--usually the director--who is deemed an incompetent.
The point I'm making is the difficulty of "proving," eg, that Garcia Marquez is worth studying and Toni Morrison isn't. This multiculturalism crap, which entered academia primarily to boost blacks' self-esteem, has to go.
Agreed?
Did you read my 10pm post? Thought I made a few decent suggestions.
The most interesting part of the case, imo, concerns academics at Duke, and a debate about defunding unrigorous, political crap from the curriculum.
Yours,
RP
Sarah Deutsch, who signed the previous "ad" as Chair of History, did not sign this statement today, presumably because she is now Associate Dean of Arts and Sciences, to whom the Economics Department of course reports.
01-16-07
Duke professors post open letter
Take two. You're in a hole... stop digging
http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/1850
g88 needs to take two words of legal advise SHUTUP!
www.concerneddukefaculty.org
Uh, 11:22,
I've been here commenting under my own name ever since the beginning. You can look it up.
I guess since your name is anon. you have been here from the beginning too.
Great!
http://www.nbc17.com/midatlantic/ncn/news.apx.-content-articles-NCN-2007-01-16-0011.html
The State picked up 2 folders and 6 boxers from Nifong. Evidence file transfered.
The URL trunked.
http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/18507
M. Simon 11:26 --
Yeah, some anonymous commenters are like anon 11:22pm in thinking, "Well, I know exactly which comments I wrote, so you all should be able to follow my arguments from post to post as well!"
Well alrighty then.
Dear Vice President Burness and Dr. Holloway:
I read with interest your comments in Cash Michaels column on the Wilmington Journal site: (http://wilmingtonjournal.blackpressusa.com
Rather than take 6th person hearsay, I chose to go right to the source, an important witness interviewed by the late Ed Bradley on “60 Minutes”. Ms. Kim Roberts, the “other” stripper, seems to disagree with you. Please focus on her statements that are in bold font. They do not support your version. (It seems that maybe you took Crystal Gail Magnum for her good word and as Mike Nifong has realized, that is not the best thing to do).
Duke Parent
p.s. I have included the provocative, racial taunt by Ms. Roberts that led to the uncalled for use of the “n” word by one or two students. Also, the final racial slur has been confirmed by the next door neighbor. Interestingly, it is a paraphrase of a joke by an African-American comedian, Chris Rock, but alas that is a whole other story.
The excerpt from the “60 minutes” interview with Ed Bradley and Kim Roberts (copied from the CBS transcript):
"She (Crystal Gail Magnum, the accuser) goes on to say that when both of you went back in the house, she says, 'They were excited and angry. They were screaming, 'We’re going to f you black bitches,'" Bradley says.
"I just don’t remember it that way at all," Roberts says.
Those are not the only questionable statements "Precious" has made in this case. She has given different accounts about the number of men who raped her, saying at one point that night it was “five guys,” “three men,” and at one point, she said "no one had forced her to have sex.”
A photograph, taken at 12:31 a.m., shows "Precious" standing outside the back door of the house. The team captains told police she was pounding at the door around that time, but they wouldn’t let her in. Seven minutes later, at 12:38 a.m., she was lying face down on the porch, apparently passed out. At 12:41 am, she was being helped to Roberts' car by some of the players and the night appeared to be coming to an end.
At that point, Roberts says "Precious" was "out of it."
Asked if "Precious" was conscious at that point, Roberts says, "I don't know. I'd say she was semi-conscious because she was helping them along in the walking process to get to the car."
As Roberts prepared to drive away with "Precious," she described one ugly final encounter with a lacrosse player who made a rude comment about Roberts' appearance.
Asked how she responded, Roberts says, "I don't know if I can say that on 60 Minutes.
"I called him a little dicked white boy," she recalls laughing. "And how he couldn't get it on his own and had to pay for it. So, he was mad. And it ended with him callin' me the n-word. And it echoed, so you heard n….. once, and then you heard, n….., n….., n….. .
Roberts acknowledges that her taunting provoked that remark but tells Bradley, "But when I think about it again, I say he could’ve said black girl. You know what I mean? He could’ve said black girl. He didn’t have to go that route."
A neighbor also told police he overheard a player yelling in Roberts' direction “Thank your grandfather for my cotton shirt.”
rant.
Wow this is amazing, I think the group of 88 is having a break down!!
Until now, they been able to complaint that the attacks against them where from right wing republicans, and of course the attacks from those people are there and ferocious, but now with transparent fact less fantasies like the one the Wilmington Morning Star DUKE OFFICIAL TOLD BY DUKE POLICE ''BOYS: CALLED DANCERS THE ''N AND B'' WORDS'' ... or this equally moronic one by wendy murphy (same paper) (I use the term equal loosely here because I don't know which one is worst) they'll have to face attacks from the a lot of the silent left that has been helping them by the easy act of doing and saying nothing.
Holloway must have blown a fuse, her action is showing willful and intentional malice and her victim card will only carry her so far. I hope she knows the state laws and the Duke handbooks by heart (I'll admit I'm don't know them by heart either) because I can almost guarantee her that someone is reading them now with her in mind and just waiting just waiting to slap her with a conflict of interest charges among many possible others.
Wow, I never knew things had gotten this bad on the left, I always knew about the problems of th right: big money, big business, extremist christian right, etc... But these radicals leftists don't deserve any more respects then the groups I've stated, I actually think they deserve less. I'm pro abortions and pro gay marriage and I hate the fact that people like the gang of 88 are most likely for these things (diversity of gender and color but not of ideology and mind).
Holloway by all means keep making a fool of yourself, people just love watching a train wreck. I shall be looking forward to your next excuse, I hope its not exhaustion again, I gave you a pass the first time on that one but not the next .
Jack D
Dear Anonymous 11:22.
You are agent provocateur.
11:22
Thanks for the feedback. Why don't you assume a consistent name and post? Just avoid responding to the name callers.
I agree that Duke appears unwilling to reform its curriculum.
Believe me, its national ranking will suffer, along with its students. Parasites sometimes consume the host, don't you know.
Take a chill pill and see what develops here. You might be surprised.
RP
RP,
That was so long ago in blog time I had to go back and re-read it.
As to Tony Morrisn vs Marquez. Those intellectual fads come and go.
I have a book from the 50s that gave an exposition on up and coming authors from that era. Most of them by now have dropped like a stone. Mailer who did some good work "The Naked and the Dead" was not even on the horizon.
As to the university level. Get rid of the ________ studies depts. Let English Departments go back to the idea promoted by the University of Chicago. Great Books.
If blacks are to be honored let them be Great Writers like Stephen Douglas. Not the mediocre pape or worse that is pushed as avant guard. Camille Paglia had the right idea and she's a lefty. Great works.
As I said, get rid of the feather bedders who can do OK. Maintain a floor for those whose earning skills are at the very bottom.
The "Bell Curve" guys like the negative income tax.
Sounds like a really screwed up version of the game called "Telephone" when I was a kid that we played at birthday parties. The first person would whisper something to the next person and so on, until the last person got the message. Then the last person would say the message, and we would all giggle at how funny it was that the last message did not match the original message.
It seems like Karla Holloway is playing a very ugly version of Telephone to me. Was she there? Who died and left her in charge? Last time I checked, she was not there.
Why? What motivates this kind of evil? If you were a student, would you wish to take her classes? I am quite confused at how this person could be considered to be worthy of being near young people during their formative years. Under what circumstances should she be allowed into a classroom? Truly, it would be best if Dr. Holloway found a new job, and if I did not pay her salary as a Duke parent, as Kemp says.
She seems truly, amazingly, totally, completely, utterly, catastrophically, unbelievably, impossibly- just plain mean. Wow.
re "niggers"
I have black friends, and sometimes I say "nigger please" to them. They call me honkie, etc Who cares.
All you people who are obsessing about whether someone said nigger at a drunken lacrosse party are playing into the enemies' reading of the case.
What we should be discussing is positive suggestions for making Duke a better place to study.
Is that reasonable?
RP
Okey-dokey, MS
I too like the negative income tax.
RP
Jack D 11:36,
You know a lot of Republicans do not fit your stereo types. I'm pro abortion (althouhgh I'd have to say it is a bad idea for the individual - depending) and pro gay marriage or civil unions I'm not doctrinaire on the issue. I favor the legalization of drugs and I favor zero corporate taxes (because corporations do not pay taxes - their customers do), so I guess you got me on that one.
But even given your stereo types the left is demonstably more insane. As you point out.
"It seems like Karla Holloway is playing a very ugly version of Telephone to me."
And now the rest of the 88-or-so have published a new statement insisting that they were not rushing to judgment against the students when they never felt the need for such a clarification before the tide turned so obviously against what was clearly their preferred outcome.
Concerned Face Saving Duke Faculty can be found at...
http://www.concerneddukefaculty.org/
Only a postmodernist would buy it.
10:58: Please drop down from your sopabox. You are making me laugh.
Hollaway is a bigger fool than I originally took her for. The reason is simple - She made this statement out of her ivory tower. She has no backup. She is alone to face her targets.
Given the fact that there exists no independent verification of this (unless you are actually trying to suggest that Nifong hid more evidence), Hollaway just made herself liable for defamation and libel, together with your good buddy Mr. Michaelsand his employer.
Oh, but hark, it gets better. The entire team, everyone present, has a claim against her. But wait, there is more. They are residents of different states. They can sue in Federal Court, as a class.
But wait, there is so much more, oh Mr. Clever. Because of the internet, they can also sue individually in their own jurisdictions.
Let me repeat, because you have not gotten the memo - The days when the old boy network in po dunk Durham protected the libelous actions of its residents and clueless officials, who would not qualify as a dog catcher in the Middle Atlantic, are gone. It's a new day. These students aren't going to tolerate the raving lunacy and transparent lies of the wacko fringe, they are going to use the Court process to right wrongs.
But take heart - They learned it from people like you.
-Esquire-
-Maryland-
I think anyone who think Holloway pulled off a coup has grossly underestimated the blogging community and frankly people in general, most poeple will only put up with BS for so long. Reputable media is going to stay away from that one or face being made fools of again.
The kind of stunt they think they pulled might work in some small academic circle but I can garantee you people who live in the real world can see right tru it. Now that the secret is out poeple will about these self centered ideologes and will dispise them. Holloway is obiouly trying to beat bush by getting a lower approval rating then he does.
For the poeple like Holloway and Co. its the anonymous poster you have to worry about. You don't realize that many poeple remain anonimous because they know there would be social retribution for publicly going against the likes of you.
Well, well, just wait until you need us or our friends, oh, yes, you'll see us, we'll just be against you this time.
jmd
11:48 - That is really low class.
UGH.....
Nifong is doing the document dump on the state also.
Cedarford,
By referring to another human being who doesn't share your POV as a "smug idiot" bothers me.
Not because you called them a name, but because they may have an intersting response.
I like to see other POVs represented on this board.
Best wishes,
RP
10:34 thanks for posting the body of the new letter. I guess the question I would have is, "Have any of these guys heard of the 'reasonable person(s)' principle." In this case, thousands of reasonable persons who are not part of their little PC party had the very response/interpreatation that they purport that they did not convey. To give an example of a somewhat (loosely)parallel situation:
An honor guard commander in the Marines who yells, "Fire!!!" at a military funeral would be understood by all present to be giving a command to his guard to fire an honorary fussilade. However, if he went to the movies in civilian clothes that night and yelled the exact same thing in the exact same voice, he will have committed a crime. Why? Because reasonable persons would almost surely misinterpret his statement. The point is that context, timing, and appearances are everything in the legal liability situation here. I suspect they will find that out in spades once they are in a courtroom.
A bit of humor on the Tonight Show. Leno reported that the accuser in the Duke lacrosse case had changed her story. She's now reporting that it was the ice hockey team. That bit has a lot more credibility than the G87.
C,
He was offended most by the agent P comment--LOL
Me, I'd take that as a compliment.
RP
The answer to those who think the group of 88 somehow has failed was provided by Dr KC Johnson himself in his midnight message.
The administrators on the G88 roster disappeared (no doubt at Brodhead's request to limit liability) and a fresh 20 faculty eagerly took their place.
It was not a surprising result really.
You are losing (or have already lost) the battle for the sympathy of the wider Duke faculty.
And with it, any chance for real change.
Name-calling doesn't change reality.
And reality spoke pretty clearly today.
Actually, the largest chunk of those who disappeared from the G-88 were non-permanent Duke faculty, and at least six of the new signatories are non-permanent.
Of the tenure-track faculty, the Concerned (of Being Sued) Duke Faculty attracted around 4% of the those who didn't sign the original statement, with most new members coming from departments (AAAS, AALL, Women's Studies, Romance Studies, English) well represented in the original G-88.
KC- You're an optimist. I am a realist.
This is a very discouraging day; the darkest in recent memory.
The first where it is apparent that Duke may in fact voluntarily descend into a PC-hellhole over this course
Across the board, this was a transparently coordinated administration-faculty strikeback at you and the rest of us.
The MLK appearance by Bell, Lange's appearance today at council. The leaked email and the oh-so-orchestated off-Duke website
I admit i was impressed that they got Drudge to bite.
This was the power elites in Duke and Durhma closing around Holloway and telling you and the rest of the world to fuck off.
She may be a racist, but she's our racist.
To regard it as anything else is bordering on delusional.
1:40
The alumni will speak.
Brodhead will be dismissed.
But will the alumni have the courage to defund the parasites' sinecures?
This, of course, remains to be seen.
RP
Why doesn't Holloway quit and move to NCCU to teach if Duke is so white bred elitist? She could have a bigger impact at NCCU. Maybe because her salary would be less.
My wife is a Duke Alumnist. Most Alumni think that Broadhead has let this fiasco get out of hand and that applications are going to take a hit.
Early admission applications are down, but it's because Harvard and the other Ivy's are doing away with early admission all together as I understand the situation.
But, there will be an effect. Hopefully, Bill Gates, who is the biggest living donor because Melinda is a 86 grad, will jump in.
The 88 legal targets have crossed the line in creating this overhyped atmosphere as much at Ms. Mangum. They are so worried about justice. Let some of it be served on them in a subpoena.
by they way, Duke has a large endowment, so the financial pain could take awhile.
If the Lacrosse Coach is dismissed for running a wreckless program. Broadhead fits that defination.
Anonymous537 Here:
The current and future silly logic required by Holloway and Ilk:
Holloway (March 2006) - "The sky is blue."
Holloway (January 2007) - "I didn't mean to imply that the sky is blue."
or
"When I said 'The sky is blue' I was clearly referring to it's 'blue' state of emotion. Depressed if you will."
or
"When I said 'The sky is blue' I was not endorsing the fact the sky is always blue because clearly, under different conditions, the sky can be yellow, orange, green, brown, white or black. But because of our racist, homophobic, sexist, neanderthal atmosphere feels it alright to discriminate in favor of one color taking prominance to the exclusion of most other colors chance to be in the dominant role............"
Yes, we know that there were racial "slurs" said by the lax players AND the strippers. Yes, we know the lax players were NOT being very bright when they held the party. BUT, the is no evidence they did something that requires prison. Quite the contrary, the stripper was making all this up to avoid time in the drunk tank! AND, the telephone call mentions that "sterling" Durham police force (Barney Fife, are you listening??) that would NOT be biased against a student. The RUMP Group of 88 needs to just shut the hell up.
-Esquire-
-Maryland-
12:06 AM,
Brilliant and cutting.
That was my take although not nearly so eloquently put.
If the Gang That Couldn't Think Straight ™ keeps this up the boys are going to be billionaires.
12:06
Esquire Maryland.
Good post.
Alev said:
The most likely effect of this action is to ensure a positive response to a change of venue motion should this case go to trial.
Simon: Thank you.
I am really tired of this reduntant exercise in mass victim mythos. Pathetic.
There is only one way to curb such behavior in the future - The writing of really large checks.
-Esquire-
-Maryland-
So Cash Michaels publishes a vile bit of hearsay in the first paragraph. But Burness and Holloway must have utterly lost their minds, and Brodhead must be injuring himself out of frustration everytime they open their mouths. Buried in the article, it actually suggests Duke may conduct its own investigation of the "racist" incident once they can be certain it doesn't interfere with the Durham investigation!
To wit: "But I also knew that [Duke President] Dick [Brodhead] had said from the start that independent of the criminal allegations, some inappropriate and dishonorable things had occurred that night and when the Police investigation was concluded, he committed that Duke would conduct its own review.”
“That commitment stands,” Burness continued."
Yeah. Now they're threatening the kids, who have already proved they're not gonna roll over.
On the verge of the biggest lawsuit in Duke history, which promises to relegate its great reputation to lower than that of most community colleges and University of Colorado, these idiots are still impuning the reputations of 46 lacrosse players. They deserve everything they're gonna get.
) There is no substantiation that the LAX players made this racist remark. This is a rumor from the Durham police reported to the Duke police reported to VP Burness reported to Karla Holloway reported to Cash Michaels.
2) Even if it was true, it would tend to confirm reports that the players found the two dancers to be disgusting and wanted to be rid of them as soon as possible. It is exculpatory with respect to a sexual assault.
The real question is why did this come out now, and what is Burness doing at a time when the Duke administration should be conciliatory towards the lacrosse team if they want to avoid legal consequenecs for Duke's mistakes?
sceptical
10:10 - And if it has escaped your notice, Kim Roberts rebuffs this alleged statement. Review the first 60 Minutes interview for details.
Thus, Ms. Holloway made her statements, which were then published by Cash Michael's and his employer, with actual knowledge of their falsehood.
That is unless they are actually stupid enough to try to argue that the accuser's word should be trusted to a jury made up of reasonable men and women from the community. This argument would be destroyed in seconds anywhere outside of Durham.
And that's what's starting to become wholly apparent. It has not passed my notice that Durham and North Carolina appears to be its own little republic where people think they can say and do whatever they want without consequences attaching to their actions. Now, I here people say that my own home jurisdiction is liberal (and they would be right, to my continuing chagrin), but it pales in the face of Durham and NC. On one hand, the State has condoned the lies and actions of the wacko fringe for so long, they have fooled themselves into thinking this is normal behavior for people as a general rule. On the other hand, it retains an odd sense of its southern roots, where folks "who ain't from 'round here" aren't supposed to say anything that calls them to task.
Let's face it, it's wierd. If anything can come out of this, it should be that you don't ruin people's lives for your own amusement on the basis of outrageous lies. You don't throw your students under the bus as a university in the name of political convenience.
The answer is to sue them all somewhere other than within the fringes of NC, where they can see how real people think, and how real justice systems work.
I encourage any lacrosse player from NY to bring suit in that jurisdiction, and any player from MD, particularly Anne Arundel County (Annapolis) and Baltimore County (which are conservative areas) to do likewise. Keep the heat up, make them pay, but do it outside of the Durham good old boy network for full effect.
-Esquire-
-Maryland-
Cash Michaels is as Forest Gump put it, "stupid is as stupid does". Cash Michaels is just plain stupid. DUH......
Does anyone know Cash Michaels email address?
it was probably the gangsta rap that was being played while they danced...
G88, Duke, President Dick and many many others are going to get the pants sued off'em.
Can we just execute this Holloway cunt already? After all, conviction of an actual crime is irrelevant, isn't it?
Why not just ask Kim?
Again, meanwhile murderers walk free and the criminal justice system has come to a halt because of Nifong's antics! My brother, Allen J Croft Jr, Janet Araboa, Michelle Young and how many others have been IGNORED for over 2 years?!
The REAL rape has been to the victims and the families! It makes me sick so much of the world's attention in drawn to this when MURDERS go not only without prosecution, but investigation! I have been verbally abused and threatened by the Sheriff's Office to NOT call?! It took them a year to send us even 1 report and nothing else?! I have sent countless e-mails and Post Office mail, made thousands of calls and have just been given the run around like a dog chasing it's own tail! I have the story details on Liestoppers.com, username is Justice4Jack.
I have contacted EVERY official in Government, and am STILL waiting!!!
HOW MUCH LONGER?!?!?!
Rhonda Fleming
Cleveland, Ohio
PS, If anybody reading this is a GREAT lawyer, look me up because we have more proof of obstruction of justice, corruption, unethical and criminal behavior from LE, and DENIED the right for them to have even done an investigation to protocol!
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