Wednesday, October 03, 2007

Orin Starn, Researcher

The anti-lacrosse extremist, from an op-ed in today's H-S:

"I stopped reading the blogs many months ago."

"
By speaking only of his own supposed mistakes together with a swipe at 'ill-judged and divisive' faculty comments, [Brodhead] left unchallenged the inaccurate, sanctimonious, pseudo-objective blog-driven framing of the lacrosse case that by force of repetition seems to have metamorphosed into the truth of what actually happened."

It's good to see that Orin Starn admitted that it has been "many months" since he even looked at the subject of his hyperbolic attacks today. Is he that cavalier before making assertions in the classroom, or in his research?

95 comments:

Anonymous said...

Oh, he's been reading. Hi, Orin!

Anonymous said...

Uh, he's an anthropologist. No facts necessary, since there are no facts, only a myriad of equally-valid viewpoints.

Debrah said...

Orin, baby...don't be a fool.

You can't catch KC.

LOL!!!
LOL!!!

Anonymous said...

Is Starn asserting that James Coleman and Roy Cooper are "blog-driven" - if so, I'm sure that comes as a surprise to them. I imagine they consider themselves to be "truth-driven."

All of which raises the question, by what is Starn driven?

Anonymous said...

KC's last sentence: Is he that cavalier before making assertions in the classroom, or in his research?

Is Orin a cavalier or a roundhead?

From his repeated condemnation of the sins of student drinking and stripper-hiring, I'd adjudge him to be more of a neo-puritan, a roundhead.

On the other hand, he's completely cavalier about facts.

Cavalier or roundhead? You decide.

Debrah said...

What would unimaginative dimwits like Orin Strarn do if they could not use old 20th century storylines as a smokescreen for their libelous, slanderous, and criminal behavior?

It's almost heartwrenching to read some of Starn's old tools of debate.

He's as backward as they come....still so dependent upon using tales of woe regarding other races of people--who, obviously, he really cares nothing about, personally--to further fuel his bigotry, envy, and hatred.

Starn, Chafe, and Burness = Duke's 3 most embarrassing Stooges.

Anonymous said...

K.C. wonders: "Is he [Starn] that cavalier before making assertions in the classroom, or in his research?"

Although I can't speak to Starn's classroom "pedagogy," I'm certain he isn't "that cavalier" in his research. Indeed, he couldn't be--he hasn't produced any.

bill anderson said...

The guy simply is dishonest, but then we have been treated to a wealth of dishonesty by certain Duke University faculty members.

Maybe had Starn read the blogs, he might have know what really happened instead of his fanciful recollections and the crap given us by his G88 friends.

redcybra said...

...inaccurate, sanctimonious, pseudo-objective...How well you know yourself, Professor.

bill anderson said...

K.C.,

Has Starn left any comments on this thread? I truly despise people like that who make comments like what he makes, but don't ID themselves. Pure cowardice.

redcybra said...

Maybe this is what ticked Orin off:

All over- almost
you tell me
By: Oliver Sherouse
Duke Chronicle

But I do have this to say directly to the Group of 88: It's time to put the whole nasty business behind us. We, your students, need to know that you are with us, and not just waiting to go after us. We need to know that you see more in us than drunks and racists and rapists and potential rapists. We need to know that you value the truth. We need you to apologize. Please.


http://www.dukechronicle.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticlePrinterFriendly&uStory_id=a9494a61-2779-46ca-9ac2-2e125914cfa4

Anonymous said...

It seems that a good number of the 88 get published by the "Herald Sun." Can Starn count this op-ed piece as a publication for his CV?

Anonymous said...

What little good Brodhead did was undone by this idiot. I also suspect he is wrapped up in some very bizarre internal sexual conflicts based on his published letter.

Anonymous said...

"metamorphosed into the truth of what actually happened"

I assume he is talking about a very narrow piece of this whole affair, namely, his own remarks and their context.

What did he witness or what research has he done that would challenge any other aspect of the events that have occurred?

Ralph Phelan said...

Anonymous 10/3/07 3:05 PM
said...
I'm certain he isn't "that cavalier" in his research. Indeed, he couldn't be--he hasn't produced any.


Do tell.

KC, I know you're busy, but could you pretty please whip together just one more (Non-)Group Profile?

Anonymous said...

What these commentors don't get -- refuse to get -- is the reason KC is forced to use that ridiculous ALE for Starn. He is not one of the 88 and those of you who ride that are on a very dead horse. And BTW KC, quote me one thing Starn has published revealing an anti lacrosse bias -- specifics, "professor."

Anonymous said...

Although I can't speak to Starn's classroom "pedagogy," I'm certain he isn't "that cavalier" in his research. Indeed, he couldn't be--he hasn't produced any.

What is that assessment based on? He's published two books on his own, and co-edited another set. And no, not all are published with Duke University Press. His latest was picked up by Norton.

Anonymous said...

What seems consistently true about KC and his "Sunshine Band" is that you all get the facts consistently WRONG. But you are too busy telling people to shut up, insulting them and deliberately misrepresenting them to notice.

Clearly, freedom of expression is an alien concept to you. And it's laughable to suggest that an oped can be the basis of a lawsuit. Please do us a favor and grow up.

And Debbie -- you never said what turns you on so much about Starn! Dish, Diva Girl!

Debrah said...

TO 3:52 PM--

Oh, hi Mrs. Starn!

Trolling for hubby Orin again?

LOL!!!

You sure have that Elizabeth Edwards thing going on....defending your squeeze while keeping tabs on KC.

Too hilarious!

Anonymous said...

Comment moderation . . . Orin Starn is . . . an example of someone who . . . is . . . an example of someone . . . saved by comment moderation. Still, what a fraud.

Anonymous said...

3:57- Don't hate the messenger. We know you for what you are. Have you found a new group of white kids to attack?

Anonymous said...

redcybra --

Excellent op-ed by Sherouse; thank you for bringing it to our attention. Sherouse pretty much cuts to the heart of things: the students need to know that the Group of 88 values the truth, and the longer they go on pretending that the Listening Statement wasn't "about the lacrosse team incident" (even though that's exactly what Wahneema Lubiano said it was when asking them to sign) or that when they said "what happened to this young woman" they were keeping an open mind that it might just be "drunkenness" that "happened to" her, the more it shouts to the students that the Group of 88 doesn't value the truth. The Group are not saving their reputations by refusing to acknowledge any wrong-doing and refusing to apologize; they are in fact trashing what little they have left.

Ralph Phelan said...

We, your students, need to know that you are with us, and not just waiting to go after us. We need to know that you see more in us than drunks and racists and rapists and potential rapists. We need to know that you value the truth. We need you to apologize. Please.

Dude, I don't care how much you "need to know" that, but it just aint true.

They are against you.
They do see you as drunks and racists and potential rapists.
They don't value the truth.

If they ever do apologize it will be a lie, and the above will still be true. Those people are your enemy. Accept the fact and take appropriate precautions when dealing with them.

Debrah said...

I would also add that Duke students should become keenly aware of who Ken Larrey is, and become familiar with his organization.

Stay very close to fellow students like Ken.

Debrah said...

I wish Stephen Miller would move back to the Triangle. It would not be that difficult to get funding for a whole new organization to continue the fight against what is still going on at Duke and other universities.

I would love to be a part of such a think tank with a mission.

Miller could work with Fox News on the side.

It could happen!

redcybra said...

to 3:48:

After reading Orin Starn's op-ed pieces (just Google Orin Starn op-ed) here:

http://www.newsobserver.com/720/story/427665.html
and
http://www.newsobserver.com/691/story/456646.html
and
http://friendsofdukeuniversity.blogspot.com/2006/03/expired-documents.html#c115845548198047468

I must say that "anti-lacrosse extremist" is not the most appropriate term for Orin Starn. "Anti-sports extremist" is more like it. Specifically, "anti-any-sports-which-take-money-I-want-to -go-Departments-I-think-matter-more" extremist.

Also, in reading his latest effort, it's clear that he's enraged at the blogs because they stopped him from foisting HIS "framing" of the Duke rape hoax on the public. Tsk.

Anonymous said...

You've got to admit that my alma mater has quite a few intelligent, admirable students and alums.

They just have been saddled with some faculty members that cannot be removed, teach gibberish and hate their own students.

It's almost as if there are two parallel universities on campus down there.

Anonymous said...

That blogger Orin sees other people's blogs as the problem (who, as it turns out, were right all long about the "fantastic lies"), but apparently has no problem with the completely embarrassed knee-jerk, diversity-hire group-nonthinking 88 (who, as the evidence in the case, were dead-freaking-wrong the entire time), is laughable. A parody of himself.

It must be killing him that his crowd sits around safely ensconed in their tenured chairs in the Ivory Tower all day as the productive world passes them by, and they finally get a chance to weigh in on something, and each and every one of them takes the (race)bait on the fantastic lies.

Seriously, how many PhD's did this college drop-out, ex-con, Navy reject black prostitute outsmart? 88 for sure, but we have to add in Brodhead and Starn; anyone else want to own up to their own opinions and prejudices?

For all of you anti-LAX extremists and race-industrialists out there who think they "got" the bloggers with the little nugget that Starns didn't actually sign the ad, has any of you figured out why one of the 88 didn't write that op-ed yet?

Any one?

Noodle on it and get back to me.
Here's a hint (figure out who probably said something like this)

"If anyone of you opens your considerably-overused mouths after I have the Trustees stroke this last settlement check, I will actually have to take some action against you, like a limp-worded level of mild disapproval, while of course totally respecting your right to speak your empty minds, so long as you promise to stay here and not go to Vandy and so long as you promise to stay minorities, which is the only reason you are here in the first place."

Gary Packwood said...

Ralph Phelan 4:34 said...
...We, your students, need to know that you are with us, and not just waiting to go after us. We need to know that you see more in us than drunks and racists and rapists and potential rapists. We need to know that you value the truth. We need you to apologize. Please.

...Dude, I don't care how much you "need to know" that, but it just aint true.
...They are against you.
...They do see you as drunks and racists and potential rapists.
...They don't value the truth.
...If they ever do apologize it will be a lie, and the above will still be true. Those people are your enemy. ...Accept the fact and take appropriate precautions when dealing with them.
::
Like Edith Ann used to say "And that's the truth!"

And help each other with the precautions thing. Individually, your mileage may vary.
::
GP

Anonymous said...

are you lunatics still at this? surely there are more pressing issues in the world today to deal with than your obvious hatred for liberal academia.

and before you go accusing me of being one of those you're attacking, save it. i'm not. i'm just a durham resident that would like to move on, toward the future, you know?

but hell, if the owner of this blog is using you all to make his riches, then it is what it is i guess.

Tatercon said...

Clearly, freedom of expression is an alien concept to you.
anonymous, at 3:57 pm

Um, geez, just 'cause your comment is slammed for being something the "Sunshine Band" disagrees with doesn't mean we think it's an expression that should be suppressed. It's being slammed for any number of reasons, most of which can be boiled down to:

It's new malarky; or

It's the same old, same old, redundant, go screaming into the night, meta-narrative malarky.

Sooooo, anonymous dude, go ahead and say what you want to say, if it's at least reasonably on topic. The KC "Sunshine Band" will let you know we disagree, and why.

T'con

Anonymous said...

Is Starn a Communist?

Anonymous said...

The G-88 troll (aka Orin) @ 3.52 bleats: "What is that assessment based on? He's published two books on his own, and co-edited another set. And no, not all are published with Duke University Press. His latest was picked up by Norton."

Hey, Orin, I thought you said you no longer read the blog?

Anonymous said...

3:48 said...
"quote me one thing Starn has published revealing an anti lacrosse bias"

From Starn's 9/15/06 editorial in HS:

"Here is my proposal: Duke should ... withdraw from Division I competition with their horrifyingly large time, training and travel demands on student-athletes and their crass, television-driven over-commercialization. ... Coach K and other coaches would have the option of remaining on Duke payroll coaching the new club teams (even if Coach K might perhaps be asked to take a small pay cut ..."

Advocating Duke withdraw from D1 sports is extremist, as Starn himself acknowledges in the same editorial.

-RD

Anonymous said...

I guess if Starn feels that participation in Division I sports is not consistent with the mission of a great teaching and research institution, there are plenty of DIII schools to choose from.

Hard to picture him at Caltech or MIT, however. Too many facts at those places.

Anonymous said...

Is Starn a Communist?

No. You're thinking of Stalin.

Anonymous said...

My armchair psycho-analysis of 'ol Orin: He has a woody for D-I sports b/c deep down, he fantasizes about what it might be like to have 10,000 fans screaming his name in adulation as he takes the floor in Cameron in the final minutes of a big game. "Duke down two; 30 seconds left, Starn has gotten the call and checks in at the scorer's table; Duke has the ball; the Tarheels are applying full court pressure; 15 seconds...Starns gets the ball on the wing; 10 seconds...Starns makes his move to the basket; 5 seconds...Starns goes to the hoop; the shot goes up....and draws nothing but air; strangely, Starns is raising his fists, celebrating the air-ball; he gives the home crowd the finger and screams "real men play lacrosse for Haverford!"

Dream on, Orin....and lighten up!

Anonymous said...

Starn is a wannabe leftist gun-runner.

Starn comes from a rich family his academic career consisted of him trying to do "fieldwork" with drug smugglers in South America, before being chased by them out of Peru under death threat.

Since getting tenure, he has become a self-promoting lecher who hates Duke sports.

And is widely regarded as an increasingly lazy teacher.

Anonymous said...

"but hell, if the owner of this blog is using you all to make his riches, then it is what it is i guess"


Didn't you read KC's post a couple months ago where he reported he had tried to sell the DiW commenter cohort, but couldn't get anyone to bid. So he's not making much off us.

One Spook said...

Anon @ 5:18 PM writes:

are you lunatics still at this? surely there are more pressing issues in the world today to deal with than your obvious hatred for liberal academia.

Wow. If being interested in pursuing the truth of why three young men were nearly sent to jail for 30 years for a "crime" that absolutely never happened and being interested in examining the dangerous ideology of persons who ignored the truth and abeted the persecution of these men constitutes being a "lunatic" with an "obvious hatred for the liberal academia," then count me in that group.

Perhaps you're late to the party here, but the Blog owner is a self-professed liberal academic who, by his own admission, has never voted for a Republican in his life.

Some of the rest of us who are not liberal academics just love helping this liberal academic make "riches!"

Go figure!

And, yes, we'll move on ... to a future where continued examination of these many issues will hopefully prevent this from happening again --- to anyone, anywhere.

And me? Well, I'm just an idealist ... sign me ...

One Spook

miramar said...

It is laughable that Starn would criticize a viewpoint that "by force of repetition seems to have metamorphosed into the truth of what actually happened." DIW and other blogs have repeated (among other things) that 1) the attack never took place, 2) the players are innocent, 3) Nifong is dishonest, 4) DPD is incompetent, 5) CGM is delusional, 6) some of the faculty rushed to judgment, and 7) the Duke administration abandoned its own students. These facts have been accepted at different times by the courts, the state DA, the state Bar, the press (with the notable exception of the Herald Sun), and now by the Duke administration.

While bloggers have shone a very bright light on the truth, they have done it by sticking to the facts. There has been no metamorphosis because the truth in March and April of last year is still the truth today, and no amount of academic deconstruction can change that.

Starn is obviously suggesting that KC et. al. are the internet versions of Joseph Goebbels, but Goebbels' own words tell a different story: “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie.”

Starn is suggesting that these blogs have repeated a falsehood so much that people have finally come to accept it, but it would be more accurate to say that KC et. al. have demonstrated that Goebbels was right: truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and that even goes for Durham NC.

bill anderson said...

Anonymous said...

are you lunatics still at this? surely there are more pressing issues in the world today to deal with than your obvious hatred for liberal academia.

and before you go accusing me of being one of those you're attacking, save it. i'm not. i'm just a durham resident that would like to move on, toward the future, you know?

but hell, if the owner of this blog is using you all to make his riches, then it is what it is i guess.
10/3/07 5:18 PM


Uh, the reason that we are not "moving on" is because you Durham residents demanded that three innocent people be thrown into prison, where they almost surely would have been killed for "raping a sister." Furthermore, had just a few of you "Durham residents" decided that maybe a drug-addicted prostitute just might be lying, then we could have moved on.

But, instead, you demanded indictments, trials, convictions, imprisonment, made death threats to innocent people, and generally made a mockery out of justice. So, I am so, so sorry that the rest of us will not let you forget just what happened.

Had you done the right thing last year, then this blog would have been gone a long time ago. In fact, it never would have come into being.

So, stop blaming K.C. and the rest of us. You Durhamites wanted this prosecution, and now you must live with it.

no justice, no peace said...

Back in the day, these fools would only make asses of themselves in front of a small class of students.

Now the whole world is a stage. Isn't it grand!

They are turning the lights upon themselves and the transparency is very amusing.

Note: Dr. Starn's specialties:

Social Movements
Globalization
Post Colonialism
Identity
South America
North America

Might as well be a person, place, or thing...

One wonders if Dr. Starn's current PhD students have granted him permission to post their names on his web site. Would you?

His book, "Ishi's Brain" is ranked #548,453 on Amazon. They want $15 for the only linked article. At least he links it, the others have problems with than concept.

Get this.

"...One of Starn's main accusations is that the widow of the important, early anthropologist Alfred Kroeber first made Ishi's story famous through "writerly liberties" as well as "careless research and made-up dramatic effects..."

It appears Dr. Starns may find a lifetime's worth of material in his own backyard. He could write about the writerly liberties, careless research and made-up dramatic effects generated by his contemporaries at Duke.

Anonymous said...

Orin Starn seems to have elevated the concept of an academic boondoggle to an art form.

First, there was "Orin Starn: Fishing While Learning Cultural Anthropology" , followed by a book (not sure if it's published yet) about golf from a cultural perspective while researching Cultural Anthropology.

So, what's next? Sailing the Caribbean While Exploring Cultural Anthropology.

inman said...

Golf Politics.

Now, I don't dislike golf,... far from it. But how can a game have a political nature? Only people are generally considered to have such a nature. Yes, ... it may be that the great apes, dolphins and other somewhat intelligent communal animals could be considered to have a political nature. But, I'm not sure that animals have learned to deceive and accordingly, may not be up to political actions and intrigue. Maybe politics is why whales beach themselves. You know, the red whales vote the blue whales off the ocean or seomthing like that.
_________________________

Starn has way too much time on his hands.

Couldn't he find something challenging and worthwhile to research, like the politics of neanderthal man, or maybe early Scotish golfing traditions, or even construction techniques in making a Mid-Mashie or a Niblick?

Anonymous said...

To RD your comment proves my point -- neither you or KC can come up with anything supporting the ALE description -- what you quote has nothing to do with lacrosse and is part of a widely shared -- in other words, not extreme -- critique of Division 1 sports.

Sorry, KC -- you're all wrong on this and it shows.

Anonymous said...

Why won't you post Starn's message to Seligman?

Anonymous said...

Classic KC. Why nor provide the link to Starn's piece rather than interpreting for your trained monkeys?!

KC Johnson said...

To the 6.54:

The blog did link to Starn's op-ed.

Anonymous said...

Husband made great comment- "Starn doesn't need to worry, Brodhead didn't REALLY apologize (or at least, he didn't mean it)."
TexasMom

One Spook said...

Anon @ 6:50 writes:

(This is a second request, by the way)

Why won't you post Starn's message to Seligman? [sic]

I'll take a shot at that one because your obviously limited cognitive abilities prevent you from answering your own question.

KC does not and will not have "permission" to post that letter. Watch for the light to come on when you consider that Mr. Seligmann is a party to a lawsuit settlement with Duke, then slap your forehead as you've no doubt done many times.

Granted, "permission" is a quaint old custom much like fidelity to the truth in the academy but, believe it or not, some professors still practice both.

Tell, you what, though ... you write to Orin Starn (his e-mail is online) and ask him to post the letter here. He is obviously quite good at putting his foot in his mouth --- maybe he'll put the other foot in there for you, too.

Report back to us on his reply, sport.

One Spook

Anonymous said...

Why won't you post Starn's message to Seligman? Fingers drumming --

Anonymous said...

And I'll have you know I'm a completely untrained monkey. ook ook.

Anonymous said...

To Anon at 6:44...

If you don't think Duke withdrawing from D1 sports is both extreme and anti-lacrosse, then you have spent too much time in AAAS.

You also differ in your opinion even from Starn, who describes his proposal to withdraw from D1 as innovative, bold leadership, and unlikely to happen:

"A university that prides itself on innovation would become a bold leader in much needed college athletics reform.

Likely to happen?
Of course not"


-RD

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry, but KC is too much of a coward to actually write any of the faculty he attacks -- its so much easier in his pajamas...

KC Johnson said...

To the 7.34:

You're welcome to look through this blog--as well as look through UPI. Every professor commented on in the book, and I believe every professor commented on in the blog, were e-mailed for comment. I generally have noted as much.

Most (though not all) declined to reply; that's their right. But the claim that they were not contacted is absurd.

Anonymous said...

Learn to READ RD... I was referring to the critique not the remedy. The critique is firmly mainstream -- and I'm still missing the place where Starn singles out lacrosse. You're flat wrong here...

Anonymous said...

KC wrote "The blog did link to Starn's op-ed."

I'm not 6:54 AND definitely not a trained monkey - but I couldn't pull up the op-ed either; the link took me to a registration page for the H-S stating that the content is limited to registered users. Is this new to the H-S, i.e., we need to be a registered user to view the op-ed page? I'm sure I recall KC linking to other H-S op-eds in the past and there being no requirement to register. Also, as I'm not from Durham, can a Durham resident advise if the The H-S and the H-S.com have the same op-ed pages?

Finally, in reading UPI, it is clear that Reade Seligmann is, above all else, a gentleman. As such, I'm positive he did not respond to Starn's email in a fashion typical of many of the G88's responses to KC's professional and always polite emails. Just my thought.

Thanks!

KC Johnson said...

To the 7.36:

The H-S instituted a registration policy a few months ago.

I can say that Seligmann did not respond to the Starn e-mail in the unprofessional way that figures such as Alex Rosenberg or Kerry Haynie have responded to mine.

Anonymous said...

So what's keeping you from writing Starn for his message to Seligman -- slipper in the way? Underpants in a twist?

Anonymous said...

So are you privy to Starn's email -- how do you know Seligman didn't respond? Methinks you have no way to prove this one, "professor."

Anonymous said...

Here is what a sincere apology sounds like:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=2834750&type=story

Anonymous said...

7:38 asked: "So what's keeping you from writing Starn for his message to Seligman . . .?"

I'll try answering this one: principle, integrity and fair play is "what's keeping [KCJ] from writing Starn for his message to Seligman." Clearly, Seligmann shared the email and his response with KCJ and requested that KCJ not disclose the contents of the email or the response to others. KCJ agreed and has honored his promised. If KCJ were to request the same from Starn in order to disclose the same, KCJ would be breaking his promise to Seligmann.

When one is without principle one can not recognize it in others.

And since Starn is a colleague, I'm sure you can request the email and response yourself.

Anonymous said...

This thing never even got a trial date. writing "almost sent to prison for thirty years" is maybe yea or maybe no. Durham had a right to vote for whom they wanted. Nifong did this thing - he is laughing when reading these posts - blaming everyone but him. It was votes and election = the team Captains provided Nifong a platform and he used it.

KC Johnson said...

I'm a bit puzzled re these repeated requests on the Starn e-mail.

Starn published an op-ed--if he wanted to reproduce the e-mail in his op-ed, he could have done so.

As it is, in the op-ed, Starn said that he offered Seligmann his support. In my post, I said that Starn offered Seligmann his private support in the e-mail. (He then followed up with a public op-ed basically making Mike Nifong's case for the DA.) In short, there's no dispute (as far as I know) about the content of the e-mail.

Anonymous said...

Good to hear the Lefties squealing. They know that Brodhead was apologizing for Duke's wayward children so they no longer have the cover of the administration position previously articulated by Burness ("Apologize for what?").

The 88 have now been defined by not only UPI, but also Brodhead's acknowledgement that the University messed up.

These things are an indelible stain on your careers and you can't do a damn thing about it.

Rage on, impotent fools.

Anonymous said...

Orin,

Put... the sugar... DOWN.

bill anderson said...

I think we need some truth in blogging here. The voters of Durham made it VERY clear to Nifong: no indictments, no election.

Moreover, I think I remember the "rich, white boys from New York" comment from one of Durham's foremost political figures following the November election. Durham elected Nifong; Durham supported Nifong.

Had it not been for the voters of Durham, Nifong would not have had any reason to pursue those indictments. So, if you want to blame someone, look in the mirror.

So much for Durham's "moving on." Had you wanted to move on in May, 2006, and read the tea leaves, perhaps you would not have elected Nifong in the first place.

So, Durham, Mikey is your boy. Drink up! And quit pointing the fingers at the bloggers.

Anonymous said...

Re: 8:19's "This thing never even got a trial date. writing "almost sent to prison for thirty years" is maybe yea or maybe no"

You say that so blithely, as if these young men were never really in much peril. The next time you or your son gets arrested on false charges of rape, sex offense and kidnapping, and you're facing the prospect of decades in prison, and of being separated from everything you hold dear, then write us all and tell us how what you are going through is not so bad.

Ken Duke
Durham, NC

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
KC's last sentence: Is he that cavalier before making assertions in the classroom, or in his research?

Is Orin a cavalier or a roundhead?

From his repeated condemnation of the sins of student drinking and stripper-hiring, I'd adjudge him to be more of a neo-puritan, a roundhead.

On the other hand, he's completely cavalier about facts.

Cavalier or roundhead? You decide.

10/3/07 2:51 PM


A Roundhead, without doubt. He's cavalier only with facts that contravene his religious dogma.

RRH

Anonymous said...

To 7:36...

The old, "if you can't dazzle with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit" approach.

The issue was not whether I can read, or if you were referring to remedy or critique. Is Starn an anti-lacross extremist? You appear to now concede his proposed remedy is extreme. It is also clearly anti-lacrosse.

-RD

-RD

Anonymous said...


Debrah said...
I would also add that Duke students should become keenly aware of who Ken Larrey is, and become familiar with his organization.

Stay very close to fellow students like Ken.

10/3/07 4:42 PM


Ken is from Texas -- natural leadership. :)

RRH

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

i'm just a durham resident that would like to move on, toward the future, you know?

10/3/07 5:18 PM

Have you ever noticed how it's always the guilty ones who don't want to be punished who say "it's time to move on"?

hman said...

To 5:18, Re: Moving On
The one thing that absolutely must happen before there can be any real "moving on" in this case is that the City of Durham, NC be punished so severely that other municipalities will be utterly terrified at the thought of doing what you guys did.
For the next 100 years.
That would make for redemption. If places like Durham are not made an example of, you guys will just try to do it again.

Debrah said...

"His (Starn's) book, 'Ishi's Brain' is ranked #548,453 on Amazon."

LOL!!!
LOL!!!

ROTFLM-T's-O !!!

Anonymous said...

Ken - I keep my self (and pray my grown kids do also) out of scuzzy situations where such charges could be made. You do scuzzy things or go to scuzzy places - scuzzy things happen, It is called self protection.

no justice, no peace said...

Another irony about this is that Dr. Starn received some training at Stanford. Stanford consistently wins the President's Cup (?). I believe that's the name of the award for schools who achieve the most success across all D-1 athletic endeavors. Points are achieved by how far a team advances.

Stanford and U.T. Austin are always consistently at the top.

Of course both have deep pockets.

Maybe there is a connection between an environment that is competitive and fund raising?

One wonders how fast a hostile work environment like Duke will enable them to win the race to the bottom.

By the way, what is it with radical progressives and indians? Ward Churchill, Orin Starn, and the guy at Duke who manufactured the flying Mayan penis tenure tract all come immediately to mind.

Gary Packwood said...

Debrah or anyone from Durham

Off topic I think.

What is Camp Chesternut Ridge near Durham and what is their connection to Duke Divinity?

http://www.campchestnutridge.org/
::
GP

Anonymous said...

KC,

You would think that those who would like your blog to end ASAP and have everyone "move on" would realize the best way to make that happen is to stop throwing fuel on the fire!

Could it be that somehow the Durham elite somehow are getting a positive sensation out of all this attention?

Very curious don't you agree?

Not the Mayor

hman said...

To 10:17
You seem to be saying that the lesson to be learned from this is that one should endeavor to stay away from situations where an utterly un-principled Attorney General and local Police might push indictments on you that they knew were bogus from the start.
Exactly where one would be truly safe from that sort of thing, I am not sure. And neither are you, BTW.
Would you like to hear the actual lessons? I doubt you will like them.
1. Always get lots of time stamped photos when unstable women are around.
2. Only a fool trusts the cops or a DA.
3. Political Correctness is recycled Stalinism.
Act accordingly.

Debrah said...

TO GP--

I don't live in Durham...(let's get that straight right now! LOL!!!)

From this website Chestnut Ridge, it looks as though it might be a place for religious types like Timothy Tyson and Rev. Barber to get together and pig out.

Efland is outside of Durham. Forgot exactly where it is.

:>)

inman said...

This is off topic, but I'm watching Ken Burns' "The War" and I note the white male privilege that bled for my freedom. Now, I know that the defenders of freedom and liberty and tyranny were a diverse group. Many African American, Asians, Latinos and Native American also made the ultimate sacrifice in defense of our nation's most precious values and traditions. For that sacrifice, they deserve our collective thanks and devotion.

Each and every one of those who gave so much for this country in many more conflicts than just "The War" should be remembered and honored for their contribution to freedom. Yes,... many white men and women thought it a privilege to serve, and to die, in defense of the foundations upon which this country was built. But ...equally so ... many Blacks and Latinos and Native Americans and Asians have also served and died to defend the foundations upon which this country was built.

Now... there is no greater privilege than to serve one's fellow man, to offer one's life to history, to have a meaning that transcends a generation. Those who gave their life in defense of freedom and continue to do so are most deserving of honor. They deserve to be honored as the privileged.

So...for the White, the Black, the Asian, the Latino, the Native American and others who have voluntarily offered to defend freedom, ...

... you are certainly the privileged.

Debrah said...

TO GP--

Efland is located between Durham and Greensboro--west of Chapel Hill.

Anonymous said...

Off topic also - I am reading "Break out". The Marine break through from the Chosin entrapment during the Korean War. Talk about men and multi nationals defending us.

Anonymous said...

Chestnut Ridge is a Mathodist Retreat Center.

What is the link to DUke?

Ralph Phelan said...

anonymous 10/3/07 5:18 PM said...

"surely there are more pressing issues in the world today to deal with than your obvious hatred for liberal academia."

I don't pursue the destruction of liberal academia because I think it's the world's most pressing issue. For me pursuing the destruction of liberal academia is a fun hobby indulged in for its own sake. By the way, please, everyone, write your Congressthieves in support of HR3675.

" i'm just a durham resident that would like to move on, toward the future, you know?"

I'm sure you would. But first you're gonna have to write a lot of checks. Remember, the current lawsuit is just the first. There's all the other lacrosse players, including McFayden who will have some extra-special grounds to sue on, there's Elmostafa, and I'm sure there are others I'm not thinking of at the moment....

"but hell, if the owner of this blog is using you all to make his riches, then it is what it is i guess."
I'm a capitalist, I have no problem with that. From another perspective, I'd say that being paid to expose corruption and injustice is a clear example of "right livelihood."

Stu Daddy said...

To GP, Debrah and the 12:41...

Chestnut Ridge Camp & Retreat Center has a parent organization, NC United Methodist Camp and Retreat Ministries, Inc., which is affiliated with the United Methodist Church. Center director Rhonda Parker has a degrees from Trinity College and the Divinity School at Duke. Duke University is affiliated with the United Methodist Church.

Curious why Gary was asking. Did I miss something in the flurry of commentary about Orin Starn?

Gary Packwood said...

Stu Daddy 3:19 said...
To GP, Debrah and the 12:41...

...Chestnut Ridge Camp & Retreat Center has a parent organization, NC United Methodist Camp and Retreat Ministries, Inc., which is affiliated with the United Methodist Church. Center director Rhonda Parker has a degrees from Trinity College and the Divinity School at Duke. Duke University is affiliated with the United Methodist Church.
...Curious why Gary was asking. Did I miss something in the flurry of commentary about Orin Starn?
::
Thanks SD.

Orin and all the others who ascribe to political correct agendas need a place to meet occasionally to get their stories straight. I think they usually call such meetings ...retreats.

Also, people who earn degrees in Anger Studies usually need jobs and these types of campus provide part time employment.

Did you see the list of staff members who work at Chestnut Ride Camp and Retreat Center?

I am just looking around for the place where the G88, their staff member friends and students get together and grove.

Then I want to take a look at what other groups are meeting there.
::
GP

Anonymous said...

When we are listing good people, who did the right thing in this case, I would suggest that Elmostafa should always appear on that list. That dear man, a taxi driver-immigrant, stuck to his story despite it putting him in great personal jeopardy.

I hope that part of the settlement that will eventually come from abuses and illegalities in the DPD will reimburse him handsomly.

I commented on another blog thread about Diogenes taking his lantern and going through the city in search of an honest man. I should have remembered Mr. Elmostafa. There were others, of course, but none perhaps so vulnerable as he.

As a new American, he did the right thing in the face of intimidation and who knows what else he faced that we don't yet know.

Without him, Reade would have had a much more difficult time establishing his LEGITIMATE alibi.

dsl

gwallan said...

Anonymous @5:18 PM said...
and before you go accusing me of being one of those you're attacking, save it. i'm not. i'm just a durham resident that would like to move on, toward the future, you know?

"...lunatics...obvious hatred for liberal academia..."

Those we're attacking?


but hell, if the owner of this blog is using you all to make his riches, then it is what it is i guess.

If certain, innocent lacrosse players are using Durham and Duke to make their riches then what?

---------------------------------

miramar said...
While bloggers have shone a very bright light on the truth, they have done it by sticking to the facts. There has been no metamorphosis because the truth in March and April of last year is still the truth today, and no amount of academic deconstruction can change that.

Well put. The deconstructors are the Whelan the Wreckers or the Vogon Constructor Fleets of historical record. Unfortunately for them the permanent nature of the blog content memorialises their words. The contemporaneous nature of it prevents them from redfining specific elements of it. It confounds them. It can put them out of business. So they attack in the only way they really know how.


----------------------------------

Anonymous @10:17 PM said...

Ken - I keep my self (and pray my grown kids do also) out of scuzzy situations where such charges could be made. You do scuzzy things or go to scuzzy places - scuzzy things happen, It is called self protection.


Yep. No one to blame but themselves.

Mind you we must NEVER suggest a rape victim's attire or inebriation contributed to their dilemna. Likewise we must never criticise a woman who lies about rape.

THAT would be blaming the victim.

Anonymous said...

Ann Coulter wrote "You can greatly reduce your chances of being raped or murdered by not being out drunk." I think people are responsible for their actions. Not that random events do not occurr.I do not know where the "never criticise a woman who lies about rape" comes into self protection.

no justice, no peace said...

So Dr. Starn didn't sign the statement...

1. He was traveling, and/or out of pocket and unavailable to receive/respond to a call/email requesting his participation,

2. He is a racist, misogynist,

3. The race/gender/class frauds do not like him and did not ask him to sign.

4. He is competing for internal position and is a threat to others who did sign. As such he was not asked.

5. He refused and has emails correspondence that he would/could disclose if PC pressure builds

6. He is actively interviewing for work elsewhere

7. He is either a more accomplished fraud or less accomplished fraud so he either intimidates the lesser frauds or is looked down upon by the greate frauds.

8. He is cunning as Ken mentioned on another thread.

9. His victimhood card is of a higher order than the others so he can do as he pleases with impunity.

10. Other

Cunning makes little sense to me as we've not seen cunning around Duke or Durham through this entire debacle.

Anonymous said...

"When we are listing good people, who did the right thing in this case, I would suggest that Elmostafa should always appear on that list. That dear man, a taxi driver-immigrant, stuck to his story despite it putting him in great personal jeopardy."

Hear, hear. It's a shame that if Seligmann, or for that matter any of the Duke defendants, tried to reward Mr. Elmostafa for his honesty and integrity, pea-brained morons would shout 'payoff! payoff!'

Anonymous said...

quoting bill anderson:

I think we need some truth in blogging here. The voters of Durham made it VERY clear to Nifong: no indictments, no election.

Moreover, I think I remember the "rich, white boys from New York" comment from one of Durham's foremost political figures following the November election. Durham elected Nifong; Durham supported Nifong.

Had it not been for the voters of Durham, Nifong would not have had any reason to pursue those indictments. So, if you want to blame someone, look in the mirror.

So much for Durham's "moving on." Had you wanted to move on in May, 2006, and read the tea leaves, perhaps you would not have elected Nifong in the first place.

So, Durham, Mikey is your boy. Drink up! And quit pointing the fingers at the bloggers.
-------------------------------

Aside from the not so blatent racism in this post, I'd like to ask the board to recognize the incredible irony in this bloggers thinking.

I swear I thought that the so called minority in these lynch mobs were what was being defended here. That's the great goal in the sky of this board, no? Well apparently according to your logic, every member in the Durham community, despite any actual knowledge of Durham itself, is guilty of giving Mike a pass to continue his rein of terror.

I guess I'm guilty. Thanks for Nifonging me.

Debrah said...

"Thanks for Nifonging me."

Yes, and every Durham resident who sat back and did nothing deserves having been "Nifonged".

We are all responsible for those we allow to lead in our communities.

Just look at someone like Jackie Brown who is now Bill Bell's most enthusiastic supported for re-election. This is the same man who slipped around in the dead of night encouraging the shoddy handling of this case by the DPD.

He helped railroad the lacrosse players...and that will eventually come out.

Durham is a rotten place. Rotten to the core.

And we can see that all the "heroes" are going right back to what they were before KC shined a light on them for a while.