Tuesday, August 07, 2007

The Gottlieb Files

Last week brought unusual news from the Whichard Committee: not only has the second meeting of the committee not yet been scheduled, but City Manager Patrick Baker said he didn’t even know if Sgt. Mark Gottlieb would testify.

Given Gottlieb’s performance in this case, anything less than a full-scale, public questioning of the sergeant would render the committee useless.

Gottlieb, it’s worth remembering, entered this case with a disturbing record of having arrested ten times as many Duke students, all for trivial offenses, as the other three District Two supervisors combined in the months before the lacrosse party. More problematic, several students leveled credible allegations of misconduct—ranging from lying on the stand to excessive use of force to discrimination based on ethnicity.

Despite this behavior, no evidence exists that the DPD took disciplinary action against Gottlieb. Indeed, in a September 2006 interview, Capt. Ed Sarvis stated that Gottlieb was following official DPD policy—implicitly suggesting that the department wanted more officers like the rogue sergeant, at least in dealings with Duke students.

Gottlieb, as we all know, claimed to have retained no contemporaneous notes; in his Bar deposition, he stated that he had “a dry-erase board” in his office, and “was under the impression that [Ben Himan] was taking photographs of the board, and when we finished that we would clear it. That wasn’t done.”

In July 2006, he nonetheless produced a 33-page, typewritten memorandum, which described in minute detail conversations from months before. In his deposition, he admitted that he wrote most of this memorandum in early July, just before its submission.

There are only two logical explanations for the “dry-board/straight-from-memory” notetaking style:

1.) Gottlieb is stunningly incompetent.

2.) The Gottlieb memorandum attempted to obstruct justice by manufacturing inculpatory evidence.

The second explanation seems to be the far likelier one. The “straight-from-memory” memorandum contradicted other material in the discovery file on at least eleven occasions. The memorandum contradicted the handwritten or typed notes of Officer Himan. Of Officer Soucie. Of Officer Reid. Of the UNC doctors.

Each and every one of these contradictions produced a version of events more favorable to Mike Nifong’s case.

The current DPD strategy is to “blame Nifong.” But Mike Nifong didn’t order Mark Gottlieb to produce the “straight-from-memory” memorandum. That document was all Gottlieb’s work.

To review the sergeant’s performance over some key dates of the investigation:

March 16, 2006: Gottlieb and Himan interviewed Crystal Mangum at her home; other officers showed her a photo array, using lacrosse players not named Matt, Adam, or Brett as fillers. Still another officer, R.A. Reid, photographed Mangum.

1.) Himan’s handwritten notes, produced on the spot and thus well before any indictments, had Mangum describing one attacker as a “white male, short, red cheeks fluffy hair chubby face, brn”; a second as “heavy set short haircut 260-270”; and the third as “chubby.” None of these descriptions even remotely resembled Collin Finnerty; and could have resembled Reade Seligmann only if Mangum had Seligmann weighing 50 pounds more than he did.

On the other hand, Gottlieb’s memorandum, produced well after indictments, recalled Mangum giving dead-on descriptions of the three accused players—descriptions that were very close to the three players’ profiles from the Duke lacrosse website.

2.) Himan’s notes made no mention of Mangum claiming the players robbed her—indeed, Mangum had consistently claimed in the initial days after the party that Kim Roberts had robbed her.

On the other hand, Gottlieb’s memorandum, produced well after indictments, recalled Mangum claiming that “after the men raped her, one of the men took her purse from her.”

3.) Himan’s notes portrayed Roberts as a conspirator in the rape, since Mangum “stated that Adam dragged her to the car and wiped her off with Nicki.”

On the other hand, Gottlieb’s memorandum, produced well after indictments and a time when Roberts was viewed as a fellow “victim,” made no mention of this claim. The sergeant did, however, recall Mangum denying that she had much to drink that evening, and claiming “I was screaming so loud” as she was choked during the “attack.” Himan’s contemporaneous notes had no such recollections. Gottlieb’s item, of course, was produced after Nifong had gone on national TV to demonstrate the chokehold.

4.) In the photos from this session, Officer Reid reported that Mangum had only a cut heel, a cut toe and bandages on both knees.

On the other hand, Gottlieb’s memorandum, produced well after indictments, claimed that “Reid stated she had the onset of new bruises present” on her face and neck.

March 23, 2006: The 46 white lacrosse players arrived at the Durham Police Department station for the photo and DNA session mandated by the non-testimonial order. Gottlieb told several players, by name, how different they looked from their Duke website photographs. In his deposition for the Bar, however, he claimed that he couldn’t recognize any of the players, except the captains, as of early April. And in his “straight-from-memory” memorandum, he made the almost comical assertion that he devoted himself on this day to ensuring that the players were comfortable and shielded from the media.

March 27, 2006: Gottlieb and Himan met with Nifong for the first time, to discuss the case. Though the inquiry was eleven days old, the police hadn’t checked into Mangum’s background, to see whether she had filed a rape claim previously. (They never would conduct such a check.) Nor had they taken an official statement from her. Nor had they asked her about the discrepancies between her claims and Kim Roberts’ official statement, which was given on March 22.

March 31, 2006: Gottlieb and Himan met with Nifong to set up the flawed April 4 lineup. According to Gottlieb’s memorandum, “Mr. Nifong suggested . . . we were under the impression the players at the party were members of the Duke Lacrosse Team.” Even though the police had learned on March 28 the names of the two non-lacrosse players at the party, Gottlieb didn’t inform the DA of this fact.

April 4, 2006: In violation of the DPD’s General Order 4077, Gottlieb, the officer supervising the investigation, ran the suspects-only lineup. Even though Mangum claimed that photos 4 and 5 both looked like one of her attackers, Gottlieb asked different follow-up questions regarding the two identifications. (The ID of Dave Evans received much more detailed questions.) Though he subsequently claimed that the session was intended only to have Mangum identify witnesses (or to determine if she was on ecstasy the night of the party), Gottlieb wrote that he taped the session so a “jury” could subsequently see it.

April 5, 2006: All officers involved the investigation met. According to Officer Soucie’s notes, they decided on items to be done before any arrests were made, including interviewing Devon Sherwood and interviewing Mangum’s two “drivers.” (No one in the DPD seems to have found it at all unusual than an unemployed woman without a college degree had two private drivers.) Despite the decision to do so, the police never interviewed Sherwood; their interviews with the “drivers” yielded material harmful to the case. Gottlieb’s memorandum contained no mention of this meeting, a remarkable omission given his ability to remember intricate details of an interview with Crystal Mangum that had occurred 20 days previously.

April 6, 2006: Mangum finally gave her official statement, in which she asserted (for the first time) that three other lacrosse players dragged Roberts away from the door at the start of the “attack.” Even though the official version now had Roberts as a witness to the start of the “crime,” Gottlieb made no effort to re-interview Roberts before seeking indictments.

Early April 2006: The DPD received the medical file from UNC, which recorded Mangum saying that she was “drunk” and “felt no pain” on the night of the “attack”—even though SANE nurse-in-training Tara Levicy had based much of her analysis on her belief that Mangum supposedly was in pain and was not drunk. Mangum also claimed to have been hit in the face and pushed backwards into the sink, on which she hit her head, details that didn’t appear in her March 14, March 16, or April 6 versions of events.

When asked about these discrepancies in his Bar deposition, which occurred in spring 2007, Gottlieb—astonishingly—replied, “This is not a report that I have had time to review.”

April 10, 2006: Gottlieb joined Nifong and Himan in the first meeting with Dr. Brian Meehan, in which Meehan told them that while no matches to the lacrosse players’ DNA existed, there were matches to unidentified males. With the exception of Mangum’s “boyfriend,” the DPD never learned the identity of these males.

April 17, 2006: Gottlieb testified before the grand jury that indicted Seligmann and Finnerty. In his Bar deposition, Gottlieb said that he told the grand jury that “as soon as Nurse Levicy was able to calm her down, which didn’t take long at all, she never changed her story from that point.”

In fact, as the chart below shows, Mangum told Durham law enforcement three stories in which she had different people doing different things to her; different numbers of people doing different things to her; and, actually, different things being done to her.

. . . . . . . . . . . Oral . . . . . Anal . . . . . . Vaginal . . . . . Married

Matt . . . . . . . .X . . . . . . . YZ . . . . . . . XZ . . . . . . . . X

Brett . . . . . . . . - . . . . . . .YZ . . . . . . . .YZ

Adam. . . . . . . XY . . . . . . .X . . . . . . . . .- . . . . . . . . . .Z

A green X corresponds to the story that Mangum told Tara Levicy on March 14, 2006; a blue Y corresponds to the story that Mangum told Gottlieb and Himan on March 16, 2006; a red Z corresponds to the story that Mangum provided in her April 6, 2006 official statement.

In making its indictments, therefore, the grand jury relied on Gottlieb’s false assertion that—despite transforming Kim Roberts from a criminal to a fellow victim, and despite alleging that different people did different things to her, and despite sometimes claiming to be drunk and sometimes not, and despite changing her mind on whether first-name aliases were used—Mangum “never changed her story” between the time she first encountered Tara Levicy to the time that Gottlieb spoke to the grand jury.

April 21, 2006: Gottlieb joined Nifong and Himan in their second meeting with Dr. Meehan, who told them that the DNA of Dave Evans—and two percent of the male population of the United States—couldn’t be excluded as among the mixture on Mangum’s false fingernails, which were found in Evans’ trashcan. In his Bar deposition, however, Gottlieb recalled Meehan stating that the odds of the fingernail DNA not being Dave Evans’ were “one in 900-some trillion.” He gave no evidence of having read the Meehan May 12 report, which would have cleared up his misconception.

April 27, 2006, 3.38pm and 3.54pm: According to Gottlieb’s sworn statement to the Bar, this 17-minute period represented the only time in the entire investigation in which he kept contemporaneous, handwritten notes. The item recorded: an unsuccessful search for labs that might test Mangum’s hair.

That’s the Gottlieb record in the case:

  • Misrepresenting facts to the grand jury;
  • Producing a “straight-from-memory” memorandum that appeared designed not to record the truth about the investigation but to fill holes in the prosecution’s case;
  • Failing to investigate obvious items that might contradict one or all of Mangum’s stories;
  • Violating standard police procedure in not keeping contemporaneous notes.

Sgt. Gottlieb remains on the beat in Durham. No record exists of any disciplinary action having been taken against him.

196 comments:

Anonymous said...

Just a sidebar on the format: I love that readers are alerted on the previous page when a new post has arrived.

Regarding Gottlieb.....there are also some residents of Trinity Park who should be questioned along with him about collusion in making sure the Duke students living in the neighborhood were targeted by the DPD.

Debrah

Anonymous said...

KC - Nurse Levicy has sold her home in Durham, let her nursing license go inactive (not revoked or disciplined) and appears to be leaving the state. To date she has had no civil suit filled, discipline action or lost of license. Obviously, NCBoard and Duke Hospital had no complaint with this nurse. Just some bloggers, who know nothing about the nursing.
I hope this is the end of the harrassment of this nurse.

Anonymous said...

When will the first lawsuit be filed against Gottlieb? When will the state or federal criminal investigation of Gottlieb begin? When will Duke students retain an attorney to deal with the special justice meted out to them by Durham police — just because they are Duke students? Will Gottlieb and the Durham police escape justice?

Anonymous said...

Goatleeb is filthy dirty and the worst sort of bully. He has no place in law enforcement and ought to be in jail. Despite this, Duke has hired him for security at a Chistmas Service in the Chapel and to direct traffic after an event -- since it became abundantly clear exactly what he was.


I have to admit that when I have been around campus visiting my kid, I have wished that this pathetic loser would come up to me for some reason. I would love to see him try to bully me. Maybe I'd have better luck hanging out at resterants in Raleigh to see if he'll pick another fight while off duty?


Does anyone know if he has even been reassigned to another area or if Duke is still hiring him? I've wondered about a sort of good cop, bad cop arrangement he might have had w/ the Duke PD -- anyone know of any connections here?

Anonymous said...

12:24

I would think the fact "Nurse" Levicy is packing up to get out of Dodge..er, Durham, would be good news and cause for a celebration in that city.
But then again, we are talking about Wonderland. Apparently "Nurses" that use their nursing knowlege to advance their own agendas are popular there. I'm certainly glad I don't have to live there.

Gary Packwood said...

Anonymous 12:24 said...

...KC - Nurse Levicy has sold her home in Durham, let her nursing license go inactive (not revoked or disciplined) and appears to be leaving the state. To date she has had no civil suit filled, discipline action or lost of license. Obviously, NCBoard and Duke Hospital had no complaint with this nurse. Just some bloggers, who know nothing about the nursing.
...I hope this is the end of the harassment of this nurse.
::
I think one asks for their nursing license to become inactive. Only people go! licenses don't go!

Which appears to be the case here. You are reporting that she is 'going' to get the hell out of Dodge.

Pity!
::
GP

Mike Lee said...

DPD is pathetic, but Duke's continued employment of Kim Curtis is far worse. Duke is supposed to have the highest standards. That notion has disappeared with the rash of incredibly stupid acts by countless Duke faculty.

Try to think about the number of stupid things Duke faculty and administrators have done and said in the past 16 months. You could write a book!!

I would imagine (at least I would hope) that very similar whispering is going on in the ears of Jose Lopez and Richard Broadhed right about now. I would hope there are concerned honest respectable members of the DPD and Duke faculty who are saying things like, "Listen, we've got to get rid of this disgrace Gottlieb/Curtis. How the hell can you expect our Police Force/University to be taken seriously when we employ someone who is obviously devoid of any integrity? He/she has been publicly shown to be dishonest. We simply cannot employ liars."

It makes me absolutely sick to my stomach that Duke's standards have sunken to the level where someone can act as Kim Curtis did and continue to be a Professor at the University.

Please someone explain to me how the University can expect to be respected when it allows her employment to continue. It is absolutely pathetic.

Broadhead, Burness, et al have spoken about the fact that it may take several years for the school's reputation to rcover from the lacrosse debacle. How can they expect the school's reputation to improve while Curtis remains a Professor? Duke does not tolerate mediocrity or dishonesty from its students. It's odd they seem content in accepting plenty of both from the faculty.

Very sad state of affairs.

Anonymous said...

Gary - not so. People can just let their license go inactive at time of renewal. Usually the month of their birthday. I am licensed in nine states, but only have an active license in one. To reactivate is a simple matter of notifing the board and paying the past fees for reactivation. It is not a mystery to go inactive.
Leaving Durham is a smart move. Not a good luck place for anyone.
We will see if the committee calls her to testify, but if they are not interested in Gottlieb, I doubt they are interested in her.

Gary Packwood said...

This could get confusing.

We need to wait for the criminal action against the former DA while waiting for THE committee to spread around their white wash which is before...all of those students and their parents call the really big 'come to Jesus meeting' in Durham USA.

Just how many of these people are going to move out of state over the next several months?
::
GP

Anonymous said...

12:30 Looks like never. Although many bloggers do not want to, the families look like they are "moving on."

Anonymous said...

JLS says....,

re: anon 12:24

I tend to agree with you that I have not seen anything that Levicy did wrong other than form and state an opinion that turned out to be wrong.

On the other hand people under legal pressure sometimes settle first. I don't know if you know this but there are rumors that Michael Jordan's sabatical from the NBA to try out professional baseball was possibly him serving a suspension related to his activities or associates in Atlantic City. Similarly some will take your view on Levicy giving up nursing in NC and moving and others will wonder if she is serving an informal suspension.

Anonymous said...

12:32 Fooling around with LE is not a good idea. He would not only bully you, but put your self in the Detention Center for refusal to cooperate with a police officer,
Any further attempt to find or harass Nurse Levicy would be stalking.
It is time to get a life outside this case.

Anonymous said...

JLS says...,

re: Gottlieb

I wonder what he is doing these days. I thought Himan alluded to him having some health problems last summer? Has he or could he be retiring or taking disability? And as I wondered about Levicy, could he be being eased out informally?

Durham really can not afford to really investigate him until their tort liability toward the former defendants is cleared up. So maybe easing him out is the best that can be hoped for right now?

Anonymous said...

JLS -You make more sense than anyone on this blog, except KC. Before we close now, I want to tell you again, how much I have enjoyed your posts.
If she were serving a suspension, the board would have that in writing on their blog. No discipline action or revoke of license to date. Inactive just means she you giving up your right to practice nursing in NC - not giving up your right to paractice nursing. She can easly go back to NC on an active status whenever she wants.
Thanks again for your posts - and you to Gary.

Anonymous said...

JLS says....,

re: anon 1:07

Ordinarily, you would be right about messing around with law enforcement. But you see Gottlieb has made himself USELESS as a law enforcement officer concerning anyone with any connection to Duke. Any defense attorney would use that card against him in court and in negotiation with the DA. So had Gottlieb run this guy visiting his child at DUKE, it would have only added to Gottlieb's problems.

A better point to make to the poster is that it is not cost free. He could have found himself entangled with the Durham legal system and had to pay an attorney.

One Spook said...

If the Whichard Committee does not ask for the testimony of Gottlieb, that would be a crime in itself.

Many of us are looking forward to the opinions of the law enforcement professionals and legal experts on the Committee regarding the value and validity of Gottleib's "from memory" report produced several months after the fact, and his many, many inconsistencies throughout this case.

If the report about Levicy from an Anonymous commentor is true, it would be no surprise. Given her "in-training" performance in this case, she would be impeached by even a first-year law student (let alone an experienced trial attorney) in future testimony in a SANE role, and rightly so.

It would not surprise me in the least if her supervisors at Duke Medical have suggested to her that she "pursue other opportunities." Her effectiveness as a SANE is forever tainted. And not only for her subpar report or her having stated an opinion that was wrong, but because her agenda-driven comments afterword to the DA and law enforcement personnel exceeded her role as a SANE, her expertise, and thus destroyed any credibility she could ever have as a witness in Durham.

The very best thing Levicy could do is quietly slip out of town. There are openings for white-water rafting guides in Colorado.

It is true that all men and women are created equal but in real life, some perform better than others. Gottlieb and Levicy are poor performers, period.

One Spook

mac said...

One Spook 1:41 am,

I agree: Levicy provided multiple versions of events,
the most laughable being from a phone DPD-reported conversation with the DPD on January 16, 2007
(which is, admittedly, memorialized by the DPD!); the Levicy report January 10, 2007, a report from a
multiple-hour interview, is perhaps the most damning.

I even agree with some of the pro-Levicy posters: she's old news.
If she's learned from this event, that's good news.

If. If.

Gary said...

I heard Gottlieb and Levicy eloped.

But seriously -- I mostly have moved on, but Gottlieb hasn't. He should be twisting slowly in the wind. As for Levicy -- I think when push came to shove, she showed that she shouldn't be entrusted with legal power over other people's lives. Hope she finds a new career and tries to do something useful with her life.

Anonymous said...

What is laughable is She never got fired, disciplined by the board or lost her license. Civil suits have not come her way. None of the stuff predicted for her came true. Looks like the Levicy haters are wrong.

Anonymous said...

She is still going to be in nursing - just not North Carolina. She never had power over anyone's legal life - ever. She is still Sane certified -you remember - that rinky dink 84 hour certification course given at the Y. All they do is collect material and get checklist answers.

Anonymous said...

There is NO evidence that Levciy committed any crimes or torts in the Duke Lax Case. None.

Conspicuous by its absence in KC's post today is the BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA statement which Gottleib reported. And hopefully the Kethra and Kathleen analysis will be revisited by KC. And the whole Kingsbury "deposition" would be a welcome rehash. Let's see the whole "case" against Levicy for once.

You folks have swallowed a lot of lies and spins about Levicy. Lies and spins promoted by otherwise constructive people trying to find the truth about the hoax. Lies and spins by people who just want to believe their side is always totally honest.

KC and many others owe Levicy and us all an apology for their rush to judgment. They need to account for what they got wrong and set the record straight. The 88 will never apologize for what they did - aren't the hooligans here better than the 88?

A registered nurse cannot lose her license or have a suspension of that license and be accepted for practice in another state.

A nursing license suspension is nothing like Jordan and the NBA/baseball. (How stupid. The commentator who said that up thread should issue an apology now for that nonsense. Just another irrational attempt to slime the nurse.)

There are lots and lots of things that need to come out now.

ABC

Anonymous said...

Gottlieb's message to Mikey.....

I'll do anything you want....if you ask me to.

Well.....did_you_ask_him_to_Mikey?

Debrah

Anonymous said...

What's going on with my links?

Debrah

Anonymous said...

Agree ABC - The LS crowd is not and will not treat this subject with any class or honesty. One writes she "hates her" WTF is that? I would hope the people at DIW would be better, but I doubt it. The junk yard dog is just a bore and wrong all the time.

mac said...

ABC
Point-by-point:

NO ONE has ever suggested that Levicy committed a crime. That's a straw-man argument, and you know it.

Just because KC didn't revisit the whole Levicy file each and every time he's posted doesn't mean that each and every time he posts he's exonerating/blaming Levicy for poor performance. Most of the time, including in this post, she's not the primary topic.

I certainly did not "rush to judgment," but I did (later) post some comments about the report known as the "Levicy Report," dated January 10 and linked in an earlier post and on LS: still waiting for a response, point-by-point, to the "Levicy Report." If you have a response to THAT PARTICULAR DOCUMENT, then make it: otherwise, shut up already. Please. Again, address the document, if you feel obligated to re-hash - (or talk to the hand.)

Someone voluntarily allowing their license CAN get a license in another state (another straw man you've erected.) People move. Letting a license elapse doesn't neccessarily have anything to do with anything, pro or con, about professinal performance; likewise, some people let their licenses -(of all kinds) - elapse in order to avoid having it taken from them. Neither issue is being discussed nor proposed, and no one is suggesting that she lost her license. No one. Another straw man.

Your barn should be full of straw by now.

mac said...

Note: Levicy supporters keep stating that since no action has
been taken against Levicy,
in tort or in (criminal) court,
then she did nothing wrong, professionally or personally.

Last I've heard, there've been only settlements, not suits.

Last I've heard, other than Nifong and the accused, no one (including Dr. Brian Meehan) has been charged - with anything! Are you inferring that Dr. Brian Meehan is therefore not responsible in any way for the withholding of exculpatory DNA evidence, just because it hasn't been brought before a court or otherwise charged? That he cannot be sued in the future? That he cannot be tried in a court of law in the future (recognizing pertinent statutes of limitations, of course?)

That's precisely the argument Levicy-supporters are making; it is an illogical, fallacious argument, because it is an argument pertaining to nothing. It proves nothing, either way. Nothing. Nada.

There will likely be lots of people who deserve to be held responsible in this case who will NOT be.

One Spook said...

To add to the excellent post by mac @ 2:37:

ABC posted @ 2:16 this whopper:

"KC and many others owe Levicy and us all an apology for their rush to judgment. They need to account for what they got wrong and set the record straight. The 88 will never apologize for what they did - aren't the hooligans here better than the 88?"

That is utterly ridiculous. I do not recall anyone on this board rushing to any judgment on Levicy. There was no spin necessary; Levicy's own statements are more than enough by themselves.

I believe that the reasonable view is that she has no business being a SANE nurse in Durham or anywhere else. Levicy, due to inexperience and lack of ability, clearly contributed false, unprofessional conclusions and opinions used by the DA and law enforcement.

She was an inexperienced SANE nurse with a highly inflated and incorrect view of her own import and role. She allowed her agenda-driven opinions to seep into conversations with some pretty street-smart legal and law enforcement goons who very easily manipulated her.

And no, one does not lose a nursing license for that, or would Duke probably be able to fire her for it (organizations can hardly fire anyone for cause these days). But her future as a SANE nurse in Durham is toast ... Duke medical knows that and so does Levicy.

I hate to burst your comfort bubble, but some folks simply screw up. All of the well intended sympathy you might have for her really means nothing.

Get over it and go back to your ABC's.

One Spook

Topher said...

To the "let's cool off on Levicy" posters: I think people are synechdochily connecting Levicy with the modern 'women's studies' movement with its rape-scam model, i.e. "no woman lies about rape."

Anonymous said...

Actually, what Nurse Levicy said was "I never met a woman who lied about rape." Could well be true. Your "no woman lies....." is exactly how this whole thing got so twisted.

Anonymous said...

Those believing that the lacrosse families have "moved on", are wrong.

There is extensive civil litigation prepared against the City of Durham, the Durham PD, and certain culpable individuals such as Gottlieb.

It is possible that the launch of this litigation is being timed for maximum effectiveness... such as if and when the Whichard Committee returns another "whitewash" report.

This case is far from over. There is a need for corrective justice against criminals such as Gottlieb... and it is coming.

Anonymous said...

The DPD needs to be held accountable. If Gottlieb somehow avoids appearing before the Whichard Committee (and that should be a crime in and of itself), then the focus should turn to Sarvis. Why does Sarvis whitewash Gottlieb's actions? Sarvis should have to appear in any event and explain what is going on in the DPD.

Ralph Phelan said...

mike lee said...

"Try to think about the number of stupid things Duke faculty and administrators have done and said in the past 16 months. You could write a book!!"

Hey KC, that's a great idea! Why don't you do that? ;-)

Ralph Phelan said...

'I would imagine (at least I would hope) that very similar whispering is going on in the ears of Jose Lopez and Richard Broadhed right about now. I would hope there are concerned honest respectable members of the DPD and Duke faculty who are saying things like, "Listen, we've got to get rid of this disgrace Gottlieb/Curtis. How the hell can you expect our Police Force/University to be taken seriously when we employ someone who is obviously devoid of any integrity? He/she has been publicly shown to be dishonest. We simply cannot employ liars."'

No such whispering is going on in the DPD. They've got guns, clubs, DAs who work the same way they do, corrupt judges owned by the DAs, and a city full of idiots - the folks who elected Nifong - as a jury pool. What do they need the respect of "outsiders" for?

I suspect pretty much the same goes for Duke, except the source of their insulation from the concerns of potential students and of alumni is less obvious. Clearly the BOT's primary concern is something other than education, but I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what.

Anonymous said...

To 6:12- POWER
Duke's investment arm has enormous sums of $ to invest. Steel must have figured out at an early age that using his Duke/Durham connections to move up in the financial world could be extended by gaining power in Duke's investment dealings and in its alumni association. Add to that, the ability to influence the admissions decisions relating to the children of powerful and wealthy parents, and you have an irrestible attraction. "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours." Power players know exactly which organizations to join in order to increase their influence. Some of the BOT like the prestige, some like the power. Guess which is which.

Ralph Phelan said...

6:32

So how is that power and prestige enhanced by hiring loonies like the G88 or by favoring the likes of Chauncey Nartey?

Anonymous said...

This Levicy defense is comical. She engaged in obstruction of justice and was part of a conspiracy to frame innocent people. If she was such a great nurse, as some on this board are claiming, then she still would be practicing in NC.

Furthermore, she stopped her SANE activities in Durham after this episode. I guess some people on this board think it is just great that a totally inexperienced nurse was able to help start a huge hoax that ruined lives and almost ended in the wrongful imprisonment of innocent people.

If Levicy were not at fault, she still would be in Durham. And I can guarantee you that both Kethra and Kathleen Eckelt are much more respected than Levicy ever will be. Remember, here is someone who insisted that because rape is "about power," somehow three young men could ejaculate into and onto a woman would not leave a trace of DNA. This is sheer nonsense, and someone this ignorant should not be in a position to railroad people into prison.

bill anderson said...

Gottlieb is a criminal, pure and simple. It speaks volumes about the City of Durham and the DPD that this person still is on the force. Furthermore, it speaks volumes about the State of North Carolina that he has not been charged with serious crimes.

The State of North Carolina went to extreme and dishonest lengths to frame three innocent people (Nifong representing that state). However, when it comes to serious felonies committed in broad daylight, the state takes a powder.

I know that the attorneys in the case have vociferously defended the justice system in North Carolina, and I can understand their point. However, North Carolina still is the state of the Little Rascals and a state that refuses to do anything about criminality in its midst.

Anonymous said...

When the players sue, the fact that DPD has done nothing about him will cost them even more money in the eyes of the jury.

DAA said...

Sadly I believe that many of the perpetrators of the hoax believed they were safe in their actions. The "justice" system" would protect them because they were all performing in the unfolding of the metanarrative.

gak said...

Now that this is winding down, and it looks like Gottleib is not going to be made to testify, I believe we will all need to be happy with making Nifong the scapegoat of this whole affair. I don't see the Wichard Committee doing any investigation of any value. That committee was dead in the water before the members were even picked.

Anonymous said...

One of the things that disturbs me about this case is that, despite the allegations in this article, the Duke PD is still hiring Gottlieb to provide security when he is off duty from the DPD.

As a Duke alum, I mean to inquire about who is making these decisions. Maybe they shouldn't be working for Duke either.

Diesel

Ralph Phelan said...

In reply to my 6:12 & my own 6:32...

On further reflection, I guess the way the analogy works is his:

In Durham, the guys at the the top (Bell, Baker) are all about the money and the power, and employ bullies to help keep that power. The bullies lower down (Gottlieb, Nifong) are more motivated by the intrinsic rewards of their work - they enjoy bullying people. And it's obvious how bullying helps keep the top guys in power by directly intimidating any potential political opposition.

So at Duke the BOT is about money and power, while the intellectual bullies on the staff and faculty enjoy their work. (Somewhere on or linked to by this site I saw a quote about how the purpose of Stalinist propaganda was not to make people believe, but to get them into the habit of allowing lies to pass unchallenged.) So the intellectual bullying allows those in power to keep their actions from ever being questioned.

My speculation, if correct, would imply that from the BOT's point of view the variety of intellectual bully employed is irrelevant - they could be Moonies or Velikovskians for all they care, as long as they're bullies. They happen to emply PC bullies because those are the ones available - partly because certain ideologies appeal to the high-IQ bully who likes to think of himself as intellectually and morally superion, and partly kind of randomly because of a tenure-driven "founder effect."

So what financial skulduggery is the BOT up to makes makes them need to keep the Duke faculty systematically cowed?

Ralph Phelan said...

"That committee was dead in the water before the members were even picked. "

That committee became a joke when the City of Durham decided to set race and sex quotas for the members that excluded any members of the victimized group, civilian white males.

Plus the people who chose the committee, Baker who they have to go through to get anything, and any members of the committee who pay property taxes in Durham, all have an obvious interest in using the committee for damage control rather than finding the truth.

Anonymous said...

In writing to Duke as per my previous post, I shall of course emphasize the necessity for fairness in any decision on whether Gottlieb should continue to be employed part time by the Duke PD. Specifically, I shall suggest that he not be considered for further employment until the conclusion of the Whichard inquiry and any civil suits arising from this matter resolve the possibility of charges being laid against him.

Diesel

AF said...

Mike Lee
Your comments were dead on correct. Duke may move on eventually. In order to do so, Mr. Clean and the Tidy Bowl Man are going to have to visit the campus and do their job on the administration and faculty. Otherwise, only Lysol Scum Remover will help.

We should all contact our Congressmen and Senators and ask for a federal investigation of the DPD, DA's office, and Duke FERPA violations. The Whitewash Committee obviously isn't going to do anything. If they aren't going to question Gottlieb, who are they going to question? It would seem as though they will be as effective as having the KKK investigate the Skinheads or the NAACP investigate Jesse. Get a grip!

Anonymous said...

2 off topic:

1) IMO, Levicy is not moving on (to coin a phrase) due to bad "luck," but rather because of her behaviors and , again IMO, prejudiced judgement calls.

2) After tracking this hoax, I speculate that, despite fewer total numbers, there may be more black than white racists now in our society. White society and the MSM would rebut - profusely, energetically, and almost without exception - any white counterparts to Jackson, Sharpton, NAACP, and the 88 and their ilk. Amazing.

Ed

Anonymous said...

Is Gottlieb a Communist?

Anonymous said...

Boards of Nursing are a joke!

Anonymous said...

No, Gottlieb is most likely a fascist.

Anonymous said...

Can someone educate me on the current status of the case against Nifong? When is his "trial" supposed to resume and why are the families/lawyers so reluctant to pursue criminal charges against anyone else?

It seems like they are just rolling over on this after their Duke settlement. Which is highly curious.

Smart families...lots of wealth...naive prosecutor...impoverished, devious girl....racial issues...something smells like fish, and I don't mean "Samples". If CGM really believed something happened (the NC AG suggests this, not me) she could employ Jesse and Al's funds to pursue a civil suit against the boys. But she doesn't and that also is curious.

inman said...

Re: 5:04

The committee's investigation is the equivalent of free discovery for future plaintiff's ... they have zero incentive to sue prior to the committee completing and releasing a report.

And in thinking about Gottlieb, perhaps his lawyer has informed the committee that, if called to testify, the only thing he would testify to is his right to invoke the fifth amendment protection against self-incrimination.

The committee may have decided that Gottlieb therefore would be a waste of time. But it certainly would be nice to have him called to testify so that his invocation of the fifth would be memorialized.

Anonymous said...

Ralph Phelan - to respond to your thoughts on the Board of Trustees, I disagree with the conclusion that the BOT are inherent bullies and use the lower level bullies (Group of 88) to do the dirty work.

Instead, in my opinion, they have arrived at the pinnacle of their status climb, or may believe they have a few rungs left to go, and won't risk rocking the boat too much to jeopardize their positions.

The race/gender politics is every bit as entrenched in the Main Stream Media as it is in Academia; making the ideas extremely popular amongst the intellectual elites. To call attention to falling standards of scholarship in the humanities, or even to merely point out the ludicrous scholarship of miriam cooke, would require them to say things that are true but unpopular amongst the right sort of people. To speak out risks their ability to stay in the club. While some intellectually honest thinkers (applause here for KC) are willing to lose invitations to the right sort of dinner parties in order to declare the king has no clothes, so far no one on the Duke BOT has been willing to do so publicly.

The problem is not unique to Duke, but Duke's own teachers pulled down their pants in public with the Group of 88 statement. It is a shame that the BOT are more concerned with personal prestige and status than speaking the truth to power.

sincerely,
Jack Straw

Ralph Phelan said...

9:31
Private individuals can't pursue criminal charges. The only bodies with the authority to do so in this case are the North Carolina Attorney General's Office and the US Department of Justice.

The NCAG is not interested, as the can of worms they'd open would implicate them and a lot of their political allies.

The USDOJ isn't interested as there's no political benefit in defending the civil rights of white people.

What the families can due is file civil suits for damages due to misconduct.

Nifong's gonna be too broke to be worth suing.

Suing the state of NC is iffy - it's hard to get a judgement against a state, and even harder to make them pay up once you do.

The main remaining action is going to be as Inman said: After the Whichard Whitewash Committee's report, the civil suits against the city and county start.

Ralph Phelan said...

Jack Straw -
I don't think the BIT are bullies, I think they emply them to maintain their position "at the pinnacle of their status climb".

Yes, the MSM gave the PC types their power but that doesn't mean the BOT hasn't figured out how to coopt that power for their own ends.

Anonymous said...

One can only hope that Ms Levicy is NOT moving to Maryland. We don't need her kind here.

KC Johnson said...

For those interested, here are my three major posts on Levicy. To date, I have seen no facts emerge that in any way contradict one thing written in these posts.

I didn't mention the "blunt force trauma" item in the Gottlieb post only because it's clear that Gottlieb did nothing wrong--it was Nurse-in-training Levicy, as she admitted, who told him Mangum had suffered from "blunt force trauma," a conclusion she didn't mention in her SANE nurse report.

The Levicy Exam

Levicy and Law Enforcement

Levicy and Linwood

Gary Packwood said...

Jack Straw 9:44 said...

... in my opinion, they (Board of Trustees) have arrived at the pinnacle of their status climb, or may believe they have a few rungs left to go, and won't risk rocking the boat too much to jeopardize their positions.
::
There is one other variable at work here that we don't talk about very much.

Duke owns two hospitals and they are under the gun to meet diversity requirement from their accrediting body.

Diversity with respect to the patients they serve.

The new call to arms for health care organizations is the need to define a 'Medical Home' for poor people and children with special needs. Google ...MEDICAL HOME

It is becoming increasingly difficult for wealthy hospitals to force a family into bankruptcy because of the cost of services provided.

The 'diversity' mantra we hear from the G88 may be much more applicable to poor patients served at the Duke hospitals...and that may be the big worry for the BOT and their attempts not to rock that very shaky boat.

I am hearing more and more older people saying that they are so old that they can remember when they thought hospitals were...poor.
::
GP

Anonymous said...

Don't look now, but the NC NAACP has removed the 82 crimes and torts committed by the Duke lacrosse team from its website. Keep your eyes open for a letter the Herald Sun will be printing in its letters to the editor page about this issue.

I'm glad the NC NAACP has decided to remove these lies. The fact that they waited this long has caused their reputation to take a hit.

I need to double check the NAACP site and be sure they haven't moved it, but I don't see it on the main page where it used to be.

Anonymous said...

Re 9:44AM.
As long as angry studies (AS) has some kind of cachet with the power elite, whoever and whatever that is, the BOT will not do anything precipitous with AS. They'll experience chagrin, but if Princeton is doing it, then Duke has little choice but to follow.
At the same time, because of public ridicule, Duke's BOT will slow down growth in AS and the push for AS's formal recognition. AS has humiliated Duke and that is unforgivable. In public, there will be lip service for AS's cutting edge intellectualizing, blah, blah. Behind the scenes, times will have suddenly gotten hard: much less money to hand over to AS. Other needs will gain a leg up at the budget trough. Someone is going to wonder out loud in the Deans meetings about the AS's Duke Press and its subsidy vs. so many unmet needs elsewhere on campus.
As AS-ers leave for greener pastures, there will be unprecedented scrutiny of any replacement.

Anonymous said...

9:52

I guess I am just impatient. I would like to see them sink whatever Nifong & family have left over after attorney fees and then garnish his wages forever.

I don't think he has faced proper punishment (or will) and I am hopping mad about it. There seems to be no controls over rogue, malicious prosecution. In fact, the NC legislature wants to prevent this from happening again --- to the DA !!!!!

Disbarrment is just a slap on the wrist. And the Durham STASI continue to operate status quo.

IOW, the system worked for the boys, but remains broken. And it won't work for someone with less than substantial resources.

inman said...

To put an exclamation point on GP's comment --

The number of professors in the Medical School exceeds the balance of other Duke schools, COMBINED.

The medical school and its Federal funding support is the driver of this particular bus.

FACULTY -- Fall 2006
(tenure/tenure track) (other regular rank)
Arts and Sciences...487....131
Engineering..........95.....22
Divinity.............28.....12
Environment..........39.....12
Fuqua................99.....14
Law..................44......8
Medicine............847....780
Nursing..............28.....18
TOTALS............1,667....997

Source: http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/resources/quickfacts.html

Anonymous said...

I have been linking to William L. Anderson writings at http://www.lewrockwell.com/anderson/anderson-arch.html
but I haven't seen anything lately. Has he stopped commenting on all the aspects of this hoax? Anyone know?

inman said...

Re: 10:35

If one really wants to bury Nifong, you do this...have one party file one suit only, get a judgement that would leave him penniless. Wait for his bankruptcy filing, which would relieve him of any obligation to honor the judgement (generally, this is true, but not in all cases.)

Then after a bankruptcy discharge, if any, have a different party file a second suit and get a judgement. My understanding of the bankruptcy law (which is federal) is that he would not be able to avoid having wages garnished or assets siezed etc. for the second judgment.

And with these particular plaintiffs, it is not about the money. Its about teaching Nifong and all the other DA's in this country prosecuting Black, White, Red, Yellow or any other color, religion, shape, sex or species or sport that justice is blind and truth is just that ... truth.

After this, about the only thing he'd have is his pension / IRA / Social Security (etc., which may be judgement proof. But at least he would have no ill-gotten gains.

This could take a couple of years -- but, then, life in hell deserves to be for eternity.

Anonymous said...

With regard to Levicy, don't be too hasty to defend her. If you are involved in any legal process in a professional capacity where your words will be memorialized and used in court, you have a responsibility to the facts at hand, to consider well every word you say to investigators, lawyers, etc., and particularly to not interject personal beliefs. Anything less than this deserves professional ridicule. No, I don't think you can be too hard on her in this regard. Had this gone to court and she appeared as an expert witness, I imagine one of the defense lawyers would have made short work of her.

Anonymous said...

I definitely have an ill-at-ease feeling about this so-called Whichard Committee....simply because of the people who were appointed to it.

You have a few women on the Committee who still think that "something happened"...or give off that vibe.

Then you have people like Ken Spaulding, who always has put on a good show of being reasonable and level-headed, but in the final analysis, has always remained tethered to the loony racist element in Durham.

Will never forget the big celebration they all had after OJ got off.

He, Irving Joyner, and all the rest hooped it up at the NCCU Law School.....invited Johnnie Cochran to come to town and gave him a key to the city....without even asking the white female mayor at the time.

With that community over there, it will always be a method of self-indulgence. Justice and truth be damned.

I hope, however, I am proven wrong on this one.

Debrah

Anonymous said...

While burning lots of midnight oil last night and in the process goofing up a link, I believe I have discovered the problem that sometimes occurs.

FYI, I have an IMAC and it might be different for PC's; however, when you have copied a page, make sure that you flip back directly to the Wonderland post where you want to link.

If you stop on KC's front page to click on any given post first, the link is intercepted.

That's my little mystery solved for the day....however, no guarantee I will not do it again...while in the throes of Wonderland madness.

Debrah

Ralph Phelan said...

GP - can you give us a bit more background please?

"Duke owns two hospitals and they are under the gun to meet diversity requirement from their accrediting body."

What is the exact nature of this "diversity requirement?"

What is the nature of the accrediting body, and why is it motivated to create such a requirement? Is it outside political pressure, or does this requirement somehow increase the income or power of either the accrediting body or its constituent members?

Ralph Phelan said...

10:35

"There seems to be no controls over rogue, malicious prosecution."

This is a general systemic problem in the US. Nifong may not have suffered enough, but it's already far worse than the usual punishment for prosecutorial misconduct - a gig on CNN if you're Nancy Grace, or a gig as USAG if you're Janet Reno (Go Google her name, "day care" and "ritual abuse." She'd have been at home working the Salem witch trials.)

rrhamilton said...

KC, this may be worth noting in your blog: Duke has taken down the "message boards" from the Duke Chronicle website. http://www.dukechronicle.com/messageboard/

Of course, about 90% of those message boards were about the lacrosse hoax. Fair Disclosure: I was a frequent reader of the message boards and though I never initiated a message board, I did comment on some of them.

Ralph Phelan said...

Inman - Nifong's main remaining asset is his pension, which I believe is judgement proof.

About the worst a civil suit can do to him at this point is make him move to Florida and hang out with OJ.

Ralph Phelan said...

Inman:
"The medical school and its Federal funding support is the driver of this particular bus."

Finally I have an answer as to why the BOT would put up with the crap they do.

Are there explicit statutory "diversity" requirements they're responding too?
Vague threats of "civil rights" lawsuits?
A general feeling that if you're doing the diversity thing then the granting authorities will treat all other parts of your application kindly?

It would be nice to know the detailed mechanism by which the pressure is applied - after all, those grants are my tax dollars, and it's my federal government making this situation worse.

ITFTM said...

"[Levicy's] effectiveness as a SANE is forever tainted. And not only for her subpar report or her having stated an opinion that was wrong, but because her agenda-driven comments afterword to the DA and law enforcement personnel exceeded her role as a SANE, her expertise, and thus destroyed any credibility she could ever have as a witness in Durham."

Yes, I'm surprised that Tara's Troll(s) are still stubbornly refusing to acknowledge this. If Levicy had simply turned in her initial report, its inadequacies could have been thought to be the result of inexperience only, and people would be willing to think "when she gets more experience maybe she won't be so easily fooled when a drug addict tells her 'Oh, the pain, the pain, you gotta give me drugs for the pain, what's that? you're asking if the pain is from being raped? if that gets me my drugs, then sure, I got raped.'" But then when she made her comment about "I wasn't surprised to hear there was no DNA because rape is about power and not about ejaculation" she showed that she was willing to abandon her CORRECT duty, that of objectively evaluating Mangum's condition, and take up the duty instead of trying to (not very effectively) hide the glaring holes in Mangum's account.

Anonymous said...

I doubt she cares about being a witness in Durham,

Anonymous said...

Ralph Phelan said...
GP - can you give us a bit more background please?

"Duke owns two hospitals and they are under the gun to meet diversity requirement from their accrediting body."

What is the exact nature of this "diversity requirement?"


As I've said before, almost all "diversity racism", as the kids call it nowadays, is driven by government mandate. There's a presidential executive order on this. Anyway, if you don't meet the government's reverse-racism requirements, you don't get government contracts. Check it out.

R.R. Hamilton

Anonymous said...

How do you catch the liar? Details! Gottlieb in his Bar Hearing deposition made the silly claim about the dry erase board and Himan's duty to take pictures of it.

Yet, after early July, when Gottlieb started compiling his memorandum of lies, why did he not start taking notes? Why did he not remind Himan at THAT time to start taking pictures of the dry erase board? Why are there no later notes or pictures of the dry erase board? ANSWER: Because Gottlieb is lying.
_______________

Not having Gottlieb testify at the Whichard Committee would be like not having Richard Nixon testify at Watergate. Hmmm ... [scratching head] ... I don't remember Nixon ever testifying at Watergate. It is interesting to note that at the meeting in which Whichard made his fantastic statement about Gottlieb's non-testimony, Gottleib's lawyer was present, a DPD lawyer was present and the Durham City Attorney was present. Unless Gottlieb "confesses" in his written responses to the committee's questions, Judges Whichard and Barber need to do their duty and subpoena this rogue cop.
________________

THE IN-SANE EXAMINATION:

NURSE LUNACY: [Grabbing chart out of doctor's hands] "So, the patient has pain, and the pain is somewhere in her body?"

DOCTOR: "Yes, that, is, in fact, usually where they experience the pain."

NURSE LUNACY: "Does she also have a vagina?"

DOCTOR: "Uh, ... Wha ...?"

NURSE LUNACY: [Interrupting] "Ah hah! It's as I suspected, a rape victim!"

DOCTOR: "What are you talking about, Lunacy?"

NURSE LUNACY: "Why, her being in a hospital, by itself, is consistent with sexual assault. Objective evidence of a vagina just sealed the deal."
________________

"K.C. Johnson picked up the golden fiddle he had just won, then grabbed a basketball and dunked over the stunned Prince of Darkness." REPARATIONS, ch.37,v.1 (cooke trans. ed.). MOO! Gregory

Anonymous said...

Crystal Mangum is the person who lied and started this mess.

Why is such vitriol directed at the nurse and not the liar? It makes no sense.

BTW is anyone else getting 'website not responding' comments written in German on this site?

Anonymous said...

How would a federal civil rights violation come about? Can the families initiate it since the DOJ apparently has no interest in the rights of a few white boys? Or would it have to go through NC channels first? I can't believe any Durham jury would find anyone of the perps (DPD, City Durham, Nifong) guilty of jay-walking. So, step-by-step, can anyone legally knowledgeable outline what could take place.

Anonymous said...

Help me! I just clicked on Johnsville News and instead of going right to Duke links, I'm getting lists and lists of blogs on every topic on earth. Can someone navigate me back to the Johnsville News I knew and loved? All LAX Case All the Time!

Ralph Phelan said...

RRH -
"As I've said before, almost all "diversity racism", as the kids call it nowadays, is driven by government mandate. There's a presidential executive order on this. Anyway, if you don't meet the government's reverse-racism requirements, you don't get government contracts. Check it out."

Hard to check it out with the level of detail I have so far. One executive order or many? What are their numbers? Dates? If Bush didn't rescind it, what's the point of voting for a Republican?

ITFTM said...

"There is NO evidence that Levciy committed any crimes or torts in the Duke Lax Case. None."

There is, however, clear evidence that Levicy abandoned her duty to objectively report Mangum's condition and took up the role of trying to tailor the facts to try and make Mangum sound plausible. Levicy's comment about how rape isn't about ejaculation was absolutely irrelevant because Mangum had in fact asserted that the players had ejaculated. Levicy was trying to answer the question "is it possible to construct some plausible scenario in which Mangum was raped?" instead of the already-answered-in-the-negative question "is it possible to believe any longer that the story Mangum told was true?"

Anonymous said...

12:09 Crystal Mangum has definitely had her detractors on the message boards. But you can only criticize an uneducated, drug addicted, likely mentally unstable person for so long. What she did was immoral and wrong and everyone is clear on that.

The fact that there are a number of educated adults in this story used the near absolute power over their fellow citizens by the state to willfully and maliciously railroad three innocent people for the purpose of furthering their political agendas is what has enraged these readers. The fact the abuse of power was so obvious and yet, still enabled by many others who are supposed to be responsible - whether it was SANE, the G88, the MSM, or the BOT, has exposed many to the rot that is in the structure of our institutions and troubling to many.

Jack Straw

Anonymous said...

TO Jack Straw--

Exactly.

Debrah

inman said...

To Debrah,

"TO Jack Straw--

Exactly.

Debrah"

Exactly.

inman

Anonymous said...

TO 12:19PM--

Well, now.

Aren't you a sarcastic little Deliverance reject?

Here's some news: You will be hearing about the injustice of the Duke lacrosse case and the evil illuminated as its residue until you breathe your last breath on this earth.

Debrah

Anonymous said...

Obviously you would talk to Gottlieb if you were interested in what happened and how to prevent future problems from arising. If on the other hand you are interested in glossing over the past and not reforming the system then interviewing Gottlieb might create questions that would prevent you from achieving your goal.

Anonymous said...

Janis Joplin said about Port Arthur, Texas " They ran me out off the school, the town and the state." Achieved great success. Nurse Levicy will also - a normal nursing career - once she gets the jackets off her back,

Anonymous said...

11{13 Levicy was never an expert witness - Like Nifong's trial, all she would testify to was the tasks she preformed in assisting Dr Manly with the rape kit.

Anonymous said...

Gottlieb is still a SGT with the Durham police department.

Anonymous said...

TO 12:49PM--

Tell us, dear clairvoyant.....

.....did Kato Kahlin--OJ's ditzy, permanent house guest--also go on to do great things....once the jackets were off?

Debrah

Anonymous said...

Jesus Debrah- Take your medication.
All I asked for was help in finding my way back to articles about the case in JN. It looks like they cahnged the site. What the Hell got your back up?
12:19

Anonymous said...

TO 1:00PM--

My back stays up.

LOL!!!

Debrah

Anonymous said...

Levicy reported blunt trauma in Crystal's vagina. That was true. If anything, it was an understatement. There was lots of blunt trauma in that area.

Crystal, on the other hand, has broken the law repeatedly and continues to go unprosecuted and unpunished. Affirmative action law (non)enforcement.

IMO Crystal is more deserving of the vitrolic comments appearing on this board.

Anonymous said...

Kato had a minor career in TV and party goer - which was more than he had before the OJ case.

Anonymous said...

Warning: Menage a' Trois at 12:41

Anonymous said...

JLS says...,

1. re: Gary and abc Glad you like my posts Gary. Michael Jordon was never officially suspended by the NBA. Similarly to an officially suspended nurse changing states, if he had been officially suspended by the NBA for gambling ties, he would not have been allowed to play professional baseball. So what I was suggesting is that NO ONE will know for sure why Levicy left NC. She was included in the global Duke settlement which remains confidential.

2.re: Professor Johnson what the Levicy defenders are and have been asking you about is that you are both calling Gottlieb a liar but taking at face value his claim that Levicy said Mangum suffered from "blunt force trama." They have several times wondered if Levicy really said this or if Gottlieb just said she did.

3. re: anon 12:07 I believe what Gottlieb testified was that he wrote things like schedules on the dry erase board. People here have assumed that included notes of interviews. I dont believe that was the case. Regardless of that, the interview of Mangum was at a private residence so there is no way any notes from it were on the non-photographed dry erase board.

Anonymous said...

Magnum is a not very bright hustler. While worth of contempt, I don’t really find her that interesting of a character. What makes this case unique is that so many educated people did not use some fairly simple analytic tools to figure this case out before it even took off. The educated leaders instead abandoned logic and evidence in favor of a story that could be used to further their individual objectives. If leaders are not interested using analysis and evidence to reach conclusion then no one is safe.

Anonymous said...

TO 1:12PM--

LOL!!!

GOL!!!

LIS!!!

GIS!!!

Debrah

inman said...

1:05

The problem is...we are not sure that Crystal, or anyone with whom she associates, can read.

Further, the various posts on this blog tend to use polysyllabic words, with a sometimes nuanced or obtuse meaning,...and consequently, even if CMG can read, we'd have to substantially alter our grammar and wording.

Like this: "I think CMG is bad. I think she was bad when this hoax happened. Why did she do it? See dick run."

Somehow, I don't think she'd be responsive.
_________

Yes, she deserves the collective calumny, spite, invective and even vitriol of us all. More importantly, she deserves free room and board in one of NC's prisons. Unfortunately, it appears that she won't get the much deserved vacation.
_________

Debrah said:
"TO 1:12PM--

LOL!!!

GOL!!!

LIS!!!

GIS!!!

Debrah"

I agree.

inman

Anonymous said...

TO 1:13PM--

Go back and read what KC has written on the Levicy issue.

Both Gottlieb and Levicy came to the table with their own respective agendas.

It just so happened that they--along with a soap opera crew of other players--used those personal agendas to further the Hoax....purposefully or not.

Your line of A+B=C....or C-A might =B doesn't hold up.

Both are enablers, or worse, team players.

Debrah

Ralph Phelan said...

JLS 1:13
Point (2)

"They have several times wondered if Levicy really said this or if Gottlieb just said she did."

Check the third link in KC's 10:13.

'In a subsequent interview with defense attorneys, Levicy said that Wilson’s memorandum summarizing her comments “looks right.”'

'In follow-up questioning from defense attorney Doug Kingsbery, Levicy claimed that she didn’t tell Wilson a new story. Her March 14 report, she said, had indicated that Mangum wasn’t sure whether condoms were used. Yet while the report said that Mangum was uncertain about whether ejaculation occurred, it stated that Mangum thrice had said that the assailants did not use condoms.

Presented with a hard copy of the report showing that Mangum was uncertain about ejaculation, not condom use, Levicy simply modified her story. Rather than admit she was wrong, she now asserted that Mangum had “hesitated” when asked about condom use—even though she had never noted this hesitation in her March 14 report.'

She lied directly to the defense team, under oath. She was a willing and active part of the frame.

Anonymous said...

There is absolutly no indication that DUMC or Levicy were included in the Duke University settlement. Never was the hospital mentioned in the settlement. Indeed, the rape kit from the hospital and its employees proved negative for team DNA. This exonerated the team and defendents.

Anonymous said...

Kingsbury made this story up and indeed has gone missing since it was published. Cooney state that Kingsbury "was dealing with Levicy and the Physicians at DUMC." Which was not mentioned by Kingsbury.

One Spook said...

Anon @ 12:49 writes:

Achieved great success. Nurse Levicy will also - a normal nursing career - once she gets the jackets off her back,"

Ah, yes, I can see the headlines now ...

"Former Nurse Stops Bloody Nose"

Dung Falls, CO (AP)

Dung River whitewater-rafting Guide and former nurse Tara Levicy who gained infamy in 2007 by making up stories in conjunction with her duties as a SANE nurse in Durham, NC, performed heroic first-aid duties in stopping a bloody nose suffered Thursday by little Billy Sikes.

Billy was hit in the nose by an errant paddle wielded by Guide Levicy. "I've never seen so much blood --- it took two Kleenex tissues to stop it! Billy wailed in obvious pain," observed Levicy.


"Great success" indeed ...

One Spook

Ralph Phelan said...

KC - we've go an enabler at 1:27/1:30, telling what I suspect but can't prove are lies. Need a dose of facts.

Did Duke settlement cover Duke Medical too? I believe it did, but can't find documentation.

What's up with Kingsbury?

Anonymous said...

I want to say once more----and I might keep saying it:

All of you...go back over, at your leisure, to KC's miriam cooke post. Click on the video link and sit in front of your computer screens until you have seen and heard all three mini-videos from cooke's husband's webpage.

This will be all you need to know of the shocking state of affairs at elite universities today. Just look and listen to these people. They are the worst of Duke University and they go about their embarrassing zombie-esque existence as if they have not a care in the world.

cooke and her hubby actually thought those little videos were cool. LOL!!! LOL!!!

I am still stunned a day later how socially inept and out-of-touch these intelletuals are. It's a cliché, but these people really are a parody of themselves.

Useless and silly lives.....while living very well doing almost nothing.

Even people on welfare have to walk down to the Social Services office and feel a bit of shame.

Duke's Gritty Gang of 88 are out-of-touch and shamelesss.

(Just had to remind all who have not seen those--go take a look...and listen...for the shock of your day.)

Debrah

inman said...

As a follow-up to One Spook @1:31
HAHAHAHA

The following day:

"Former Nurse Describes Blunt Force Trauma"

Dung Falls CO (AP)

Dung Falls newly appointed police Captain Gottlieb was called to the scene of an alleged incident involving attacks by rowing whitewater rafters.

"When I got there," Gottlied stated, "I could tell that an incident occured. I could also tell that Ms. Levicy had calmed young Billy Sikes," who claimed that Ms. Levicy had struck him with a paddle. Ms. Levicy immediately denied this saying that a group of white, male rowers had done it and that Billy's misconception was the result of blunt force trauma.

Gottlieb ordered a statewide manhunt for the rowers who were found shortly thereafter at a fraternity house --Tappa Kegga Brewsky -- at the University of Colorado. Three men were arrested.

Anonymous said...

Neither Levicy or Gottlieb lost their job, have had civil suits filed against them or have had discipline action taken against them or lost their license to practice. All of which was "predicted" by the "anti "crowd" Guess you all were wrong.

One Spook said...

inman at 1:45 writes:

"When I got there," Gottlied stated, "I could tell that an incident occured. I could also tell that Ms. Levicy had calmed young Billy Sikes," who claimed that Ms. Levicy had struck him with a paddle. Ms. Levicy immediately denied this saying that a group of white, male rowers had done it and that Billy's misconception was the result of blunt force trauma.

Excellent, inman, and to quote Debrah ...

"LOL ... GOL ... LIS ... GIS"

One Spook

rrhamilton said...

Ralph Phelan said...
RRH -
"As I've said before, almost all "diversity racism", as the kids call it nowadays, is driven by government mandate. There's a presidential executive order on this. Anyway, if you don't meet the government's reverse-racism requirements, you don't get government contracts. Check it out."

Hard to check it out with the level of detail I have so far. One executive order or many? What are their numbers? Dates? If Bush didn't rescind it, what's the point of voting for a Republican?

8/7/07 12:22 PM
(emphasis added)


ralph, I've not put much effort into this, but here's one executive order on the subject. It's my understanding that all "diversity racism" is government-contracts driven.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/ofccp/fs11246.htm

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Janis Joplin said about Port Arthur, Texas " They ran me out off the school, the town and the state." Achieved great success. Nurse Levicy will also - a normal nursing career - once she gets the jackets off her back,

8/7/07 12:49 PM


Janet Joplin attended the University of Texas at Austin, where she dated future Education Sec Bill Bennett and was voted "Best Looking Man on Campus".

This moment in Texas history brought to you by,

R.R. Hamilton
UT-Austin, 1976-81.

Anonymous said...

JLS says...,

re: ralph phelan I tend more to side in part with what Debrah said, Levicy came to this case with her own agenda.

Her background in womens studies which was probably career enhancing but should have been disqualifying for the career of SANE almost assured that she would bring such an agenda. And agendas affect perceptions.

BTW, one thing we learned in the Nifong hearing depositions was Levicy ammended one of her statements that greatly offended people here within a week of making the statement. That would mean she ammended it before anyone here and maybe anyone on the defense evern heard about it. Now this again revealed her bias, but again undermines the idea that she committed any crime or tort.

Anonymous said...

JLS says...,

re: R.R. Hamilton

Was Bill Bennet [who I like] offended when his date "was voted best looking man on campus?" /irony

rrhamilton said...

JLS,

I think she left after being voted best-looking man on campus.

Say, did I mention that while at UT, I rubbed elbows with John Connally [hats off for Big John!] and dated former Sec of State James Baker's step-dau? ;;)

Anonymous said...

snip - - Ralph Phelan said...

JLS 1:13
Point (2)

"They have several times wondered if Levicy really said this or if Gottlieb just said she did."

Check the third link in KC's 10:13. --snipppp



Go back and read the three KC pieces on Levicy and you will see that there are only a few syllables of quotes and a lot of spinning going down.

Kingsbury was "dealing" with Levicy alright.

So if it was a sworn statement, a deposition by Levicy lets have it. The questions, the answers, the full report rather than a few embroidered snippits.

ABC

Anonymous said...

Spook's back!

(....having been away, I'm sure, working with every ounce of his artistic prowess, on KC's new Midnight Rider image and theme song.)

By the way, this will be the "cynosure on the blackboard" for Wonderland.

LIS!

Debrah

Anonymous said...

There you have it ABC - lets see Levicy's testimony in the deposition. Not just snippets. BTW, Lawyer Williamson said at the hearing "Other than Nifong, none of the witnesses have testified under oath."

Anonymous said...

JLS says....,

re: rrhamilton

So you rubbed elbows with the elites of both parties and the future counter culter?

Anonymous said...

Phenomenon on this blog:

A particular aspect of the case is discussed by KC (such as the Whichard Committee). Soon afterward, someone writes in (usually off topic)and says "Levicy didn't do it, and besides, Crystal was worse." Then, after bloggers consistently point out that Levicy was incompetent/gave biased information on a case that could cost these kids their adult lives/was misleading or inconsistent, etc (take your pick); and, in the metanarrative sense, shows just how corrupt are today's PC feminist crowd. Then, the Levicy supporter says "get off her back," when they are the one that keeps bringing this little intellectually void/dishonest tart up in the first place!

Could it be someone in need of a little attention? Inquiring minds want to know...

Ed

Reminds me of Larry the Cable guy when his horse suffered a broken leg and Larry's neighbor says "you're gonna have to shoot it." Later, Larry reports, "Now I've got a horse with a broke leg and a gun-shot wound - if he's not better by next week, I'm gonna shoot him again."

Anonymous said...

BTW, hamilton, I had a date in college with Sela Ward - I think she still holds a torch, but she disguises it well...

Back to work...

ed

J.NC said...

Mangum “stated that Adam dragged her to the car and wiped her off with Nicki.”


What (or who) is "Nicki"?
Thanks,
J.NC

Anonymous said...

ROTFLM-T's-O !!!

Ed is hilarious.

Debrah

Ralph Phelan said...

RRH - re:EO11246

The significant text is:
"(1) The contractor will not discriminate against any employee or applicant for employment because of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. The contractor will take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, color, religion, sex or national origin. Such action shall include, but not be limited to the following: employment, upgrading, demotion, or transfer; recruitment or recruitment advertising; layoff or termination; rates of pay or other forms of compensation; and selection for training, including apprenticeship. "

When this was written in 1965 "affirmative action to ensure equal treatment" meant that you couldn't just leave preexisting systems going on autopilot. You had to reconsider where you were advertising, how you were interviewing, etc.

Interpreting "affirmative action to ensure equal treatment" as "guarantee equal results" is a bit of mission creep that has taken place largely via court decisions which assumed the conclusion that lack of equal outcome must be the result of unequal treatment.

rrhamilton said...

ralph, no, actually it wasn't court decisions. It was the bureaucrats. Look further in to that EO and you'll see where it directs the creation of a bureaucracy to oversee and ensure continued diversity-racism.

rrhamilton said...

BTW, hamilton, I had a date in college with Sela Ward - I think she still holds a torch, but she disguises it well...

Back to work...

ed

8/7/07 2:28 PM


My wife had some business dealings with Sela Ward's husband. (Talk about degrees of separation, eh?) She said he was a jerk. So Sela should've married you instead. :)

Anonymous said...

When I read some of the racist, sexist, childish comments posted on this blog, I understand the action the [Duke] Chronicle took. Can't those of you who haven't learned to play well with others express yourselves without being crude or just plain nasty? (I'm not talking about your remarks about the cop, rather about your other remarks...)

inman said...

Ralph

Re: Guaranteed equal results.

I was recently associated with a "government sponsored enterprise" (GSE) that had a strong commitment to diversity. And, just for the record, the theoretical notion of diversity -- respect for all peoples and cultural backgrounds and heritage -- is not necessarily a bad thing, nor is it the equivalent of equal opportuntity or affirmative action. It speaks more to the notion of gaining perspective in and sensitivity to understanding others and their viewpoints.

But, all too often, the underlying theme is the residual of 50 years of affirmative action. And one of the things that I saw in the GSE was evidence of "social promotions" among otherwise bright people. It was clear to me that these social promotions were the root cause of a poor work ethic and sloppy work product. Further, these "social promotions" emboldened otherwise unqualified people to assert their right to perform tasks for which they were not able and then to complain when management did not enable an additional social promotion.

Diversity also emboldened the notion that a minority status conferred an unassailable status of protection. Two people doing exactly the same job with objectively defined poor performance -- a minority employee (Black or Indian or Disabled or Homosexual or Female) would receive the benefit of doubt, retained and potentially given many opportunities to "succeed" -- a white healthy heterosexual male would receive the boot.

Early in my life, I believe I was truly not racist nor racialist, with words and actions to support that self-appraisal. As I age and I see gross racial injustice in all to many places ... targeted by such fanatics as the Gang of 88 at people who look like me ... I am truly beginning to think that --although I'll continue to accept people as individuals (and I generally like all kinds of people)-- I will view each category of race in the most politically acceptable sense for me and my family and those values that I hold dear. And if that makes me a racist or a racialist, so be it.

Amen. --- To cooke's husband -- that is my prayer.

Anonymous said...

Do those of you who go on and on (and on) about affirmative action really think that it's been applied in any consistent way? Don't you think that you're afraid of a straw program? I mean, how many really intelligent white guys have been displaced by far stupider women and non-white men?

KC Johnson said...

To the 1.30:

"Kingsbury made this story up and indeed has gone missing since it was published."

Kingsbery--as with all attorneys at Wade Smith's firm--doesn't spend every day speaking with the media. Nor, is it clear, what he would say--should he give an interview every day about his discussions with Levicy? Somehow, I doubt there would be much of a market in the press for that.

As to the question of the settlement involving DUMC: all elements of the settlement are confidential. It seems to me very hard to believe that a settlement signed off to by Duke would not have covered DUMC as well--that the hospital turned Mangum over to a SANE nurse-in-training, contrary to procedures, who diagnosed "blunt force trauma" for an attack that never occurred isn't exactly a strong legal position.

It's worth remembering, as Jim Cooney has pointed out, that Dr. Anne Burgess, one of the founders of rape victims' treatment in the US, was going to testify for the defense in this case, in part because of her outrage at Levicy's conduct.

rrhamilton said...

anonymous [naturally] says...

When I read some of the racist, sexist, childish comments posted on this blog, I understand the action the [Duke] Chronicle took. Can't those of you who haven't learned to play well with others express yourselves without being crude or just plain nasty? (I'm not talking about your remarks about the cop, rather about your other remarks...)

8/7/07 3:51 PM


First, being called "racist" by a diversity-racist is now my badge of honor. Second, how about citing some of these comments you complain about and show us that they are more than, say, 2% of the total.

Anonymous said...

Inman,

Do you honestly think that at least some white males haven't gotten "social promotions"? Is your resentment due to the "socialness" (!!) of the promotions in general or the fact that women & non-white males have been let into the old boys' club and now benefit from social promotions, too?

I happen to be really good at my job, so I figure that most of the people, including white men, who get promoted are also the beneficiaries of social promotion!

Anonymous said...

Per Cooney "Burgess was going to testify bout "rape syndrome" not Levicy.

Anonymous said...

rr hamilton,

What on earth is a diversity racist?

As examples of what I mean by racism, you can look at the comments of, among others, inman, who seems to assume that white men are per definition smarter than everyone else. For sexism, try the names the posters call the woman, Ms. Magnum, who made the false accusations. A lot of these names are gender based, ie, sexist. One shouldn't call names just because s/he can.

Diversity racist? Is that because I'm female? I'm pretty white otherwise...

rrhamilton said...

Duke eliminated the Chronicle message boards to block free speech about the lacrosse hoax and related issues. Let no one pretend that Duke doesn't actively silence independent voices and stifle non-conformist thought.

Personally, I think the students should sue to get the forum re-opened. At worse, Duke will pay any such plaintiffs a lot of money to go away.

Anonymous said...

Except pretty clearly not only Duke students were posting there. Besides Duke isn't required to put up with racist, sexist, uneducated, nasty comments from its students or anyone else.

Anonymous said...

4:99 PM - Dr Manly did the Physical exam and collected the speciments for the rape kit. Although, as Levicy received the hard copy of her certification on the day of the event, hard to call her a nurse in training. In any event, she assisted the Doctor in the exam and did not conduct it herself.
KC - Why can we not see the entire deposition of Nurse Levicy at Kingsbury's place - why just snippets? Inquiring minds want to know,
As the AG of NC said " the rape kit exam exonerated the team and defendents - what is the basis for a settlement?" Unlike Duke University who gave the keycard information out = really why Duke University settled so quickly.

Gary Packwood said...

Ralph Phelan 11:41 said...

....GP - can you give us a bit more background please?
..."Duke owns two hospitals and they are under the gun to meet diversity requirement from their accrediting body."
....What is the exact nature of this "diversity requirement?"
::
Sure. No need to make it complicated.

Community hospitals would go out of business without Medicare revenue. Medicare is a United States Federal health care program for the aged, blind and the disabled. The same logic is more of less true for the Medicaid program for the poor. Both programs are administered by the Social Security Administration.

When a community hospital accepts medicare and medicaid dollars the hospital agrees to serve the entire community. It stands to reason therefore that their patient census and employee census is roughly equivalent to that of the community being serves (adjusted for age on the patient census).

If the community hospital accepts federal dollars to build buildings then another requirements is triggered. The hospital must not turn away anyone because of an inability to pay...for many years.

The Hospital Accreditation you asked about is provided by the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Heath Care Organization (The Joint Commission) http://www.jointcommission.org/ which is a private organization with all of the standards everyone talks about. Patient safety is a big concern for the Joint Commission and I can only imagine the grief that flared up when Duke sterilized surgical instruments in hydraulic fluid several years ago.

Medicare, Medicaid, Blue Cross, Aetna etc. will only pay for services rendered by Joint Commission accredited hospitals.

Both the Joint Commission and the Federal Government track diversity hires and patient admissions.

Any citizen of the USA can pick up the phone or write an e-mail to the Social Security Administration (Medicare) or the Joint Commission and file an anonymous complaint about a hospital. I suspect the G88 would be the resident experts in Durham on how to file such a complaint.

Speciality hospitals are another matter ...and I'll leave that one alone for the moment.

That help?
::
GP

Anonymous said...

GP, Why do you think the G88 would be experts at writing such complaints? I happily read your post, but got lost there...

Anonymous said...

Isn't that hospital diversity obtained by a variety of people who work at many different levels in hospitals? (And, don't you figure that at least some female doctors, some Indian doctors, etc., are actually smart and not "lowering" standards?)

Anonymous said...

Why is it sexist to call a whore a whore? That is what Crystal is, isn't she?

Anonymous said...

Gregory at 12:07 pm,

While begas has no problem posting her Levicy crap here anonymously, she has yet to do so recently at LieStoppers under a pseudonym that can be recognized. Should she do so, I would like to copy and paste my two favorite comments that you made to begas in response to her Levicy lunacy. They are: “The In-sane Examination” and the “Begas' little head will explode” comments you authored. I will appropriately attribute the authorship of the copy and pastes to you. Do you have any problem with me doing this?

Thanks in advance.

rrhamilton said...

Anonymous said...
Except pretty clearly not only Duke students were posting there. Besides Duke isn't required to put up with racist, sexist, uneducated, nasty comments from its students or anyone else.

8/7/07 4:17 PM


Obviously there are less draconian ways to eliminate non-student or vile comments. That Duke chose to ban all comments demonstrates beyond debate that its purpose is to silence questions and dissenting discourse (even, and especially, from students).

Btw, KC, I think that personal attacks on individuals (like the one made against Inman, supra) should not be permitted to be made anonymously.

Ralph Phelan said...

"When a community hospital accepts medicare and medicaid dollars the hospital agrees to serve the entire community. It stands to reason therefore that their patient census and employee census is roughly equivalent to that of the community being serves (adjusted for age on the patient census)."

It stands to reason that the patient census would be.

It in no way stands to reason that the staff census would be - for example it might make economic sense to use cheap imported labor (e.g. Indian doctors and Dominican nurses) even if they're not part of the ethnic makeup of the community. Even if you only hire locals it might turn out that certain groups, for whatever reason, choose to enter certain professions in disproportionately high or low numbers. This is another example of the hidden assumption that discrimination is the only conceivable cause of unequal outcomes.

Carolyn said...

To answer KC, I am disgusted at the Whichard Committee.

This whole committee is a farce! I suspected it from the beginning but I am damned disgusted to see my suspicions proven.

Gary Packwood said...

Anonymous 4:24 said...
...GP, Why do you think the G88 would be experts at writing such complaints? I happily read your post, but got lost there...
::
Professors who have a vested interest in 'diversity' such as AAABlack Studies, Women's Studies professors know how to complain about lack of diversity...and the methods used to achieve diversity in organizations.

I doubt that the professors of electrical engineering, optics or computer science are going to be on the short list of people to contact if you are aggrieved about the number of women and minority hires at Duke.

Also, professors in AAABlack Studies and Women's Studies all know each other at the top 10 universities...and my money says they are in contact with the staff members of elected officials at the national level.

Some people have a hard time understanding this and I have no idea why.

If you are a community hospital in Alaska serving Eskimos, it would be a real good idea to have Eskimos on staff or someone is going to pick up the phone and complain.
::
GP

rrhamilton said...

ralph at 4:45,

Outstanding post, although allow me to add a caveat against trying to reason with people who are the enemies of reason and whose goal it is to substitute blind emotion for reason. You'll end up looking like Galileo vs. Rome.

Ralph Phelan said...

I'm not trying to reason with them, I'm trying to flush them out.

Watch for that tacit assumption, it's one of their favorite tools.

Of course if you try to disprove it they'll call you a racist, so it's better strategy say "hypothetically, isn't it possible that there are non-discriminatory reasons?" and make them prove their assumption is valid.

But you've certainly got to be careful where and when you do it - these people play rough, which is what this whole site is about.

Ralph Phelan said...

Oh yeah - re: winding up like Galileo.

There are far worse places tobe than under house arrest in a Duke's palace.

Gary Packwood said...

Ralph Phelan 4:45 said...

...It in no way stands to reason that the staff census would be - for example it might make economic sense to use cheap imported labor (e.g. Indian doctors and Dominican nurses) even if they're not part of the ethnic makeup of the community. Even if you only hire locals it might turn out that certain groups, for whatever reason, choose to enter certain professions in disproportionately high or low numbers. This is another example of the hidden assumption that discrimination is the only conceivable cause of unequal outcomes.
::
That is the debate.

I found out by accident one time the AABlacks were not available for hire in our data entry section.

Should I document that phenomenon and move on or should I call our local technology college and ask them to fire up the pipe line for the future?

I did both and was roundly criticized by everyone.

So it goes.
::
GP

rrhamilton said...

ralph,

Before debating the diversity-racists, I recommend standing in front of a mirror and screaming "RACIST! SEXIST! HOMOPHOBE!" 100 times. It will prepare you for their most common "argument".

Gary Packwood said...

Anonymous 4:26 said...

...Isn't that hospital diversity obtained by a variety of people who work at many different levels in hospitals? (And, don't you figure that at least some female doctors, some Indian doctors, etc., are actually smart and not "lowering" standards?)
::
Absolutely.

Quality first...and then work on diversity including 'in house' training if need be.

I have always found that local community colleges helpful when we are anticipating new hires for the future. They attend our planning meetings. Hand and Glove.
::
GP

Anonymous said...

Alleva re-appointed Director of Athletics at Duke today.

Anonymous said...

Re-appointing Alleva when Pressler's book is on the best-seller list is just another nose-thumbing from Duke and BOT at everyone.

Anonymous said...

From a New Jersey lawyer. Gottlieb may not testify? It seems like part of a blame Nifong for everything whitewash. I guess even the DPD is getting into revisionist history. Maybe they have learned something from the Group of 88!

Anonymous said...

Whatever can be brought to bear on Durham to clean its act should happen. These people are in charge of nothing.

Anonymous said...

To Anon. @ 4:35 - You can use anything I write as long as it benefits Dave, Reade and Collin. I forgot the "her little head will explode" line, it sounds pretty good. Be sure to use mac's infamous "Tara's Trolls" line as well!
_____________

I did not know that Dr. Anne Burgess was listed as a defense expert. In reading up on this case long ago, I came across her "Rape Trauma Syndrome," and noted that it provided a reasonable explanation for a real rape victim to act differently because of rape.

For example, some real rape victims might call the police immediately; others might wait, etc. Dr. Burgess' RTS dealt with the ACTIONS or CONDUCT of real rape victims, not LIES.

I felt that anyone who would claim that Mangum suffered from RTS was devaluing the work of Dr. Burgess. Nice to see that she apparently felt the same way.

The work done by Dr. Burgess and her partner was really very informative and, to me, very logical. It was especially important at the time because of the negative repercussions faced by women who claimed rape. (One of the reasons why women would not immediately come forward to complain of rape). Mangum set that back many years. Nurse Lunacy did as well. Dr. Burgess, on the other hand, proved to be a real rape victim advocate!
______________

"K.C. Johnson's singing voice is so pure it can cut diamonds, lines and farts." From - A jealous Pavrotti to Entertainment Tonight reporter (May 12, 1998). MOO! Gregory

Anonymous said...

They are not using Indian Physicians, etc for cheap labor. White or black american doctors will rarely go into the ghetto to paractice. The Indians will because everyone wants to come to America.
Quoting Mac must be a joke.

inman said...

An anonymous poster said:

Inman,

Do you honestly think that at least some white males haven't gotten "social promotions"? Is your resentment due to the "socialness" (!!) of the promotions in general or the fact that women & non-white males have been let into the old boys' club and now benefit from social promotions, too?

I happen to be really good at my job, so I figure that most of the people, including white men, who get promoted are also the beneficiaries of social promotion!


First, and I certainly appreciate your focus on the word "social"...yes, I think you are right that that particular word doesn't capture the notion of a "politically required promotion to attempt a societal solution" for all those so-called wrongs of those times that now recede into true history and antiquity (my understanding of antiques is that 100 years is a litmus test. But then again, that litmus test relates to property. Oops. Sorry. Didn't want to raise a sore subject.)

And frankly, as Groucho Marx once stated: "I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me as a member." The "old boys club"....give me a break...in today's world that has only to do with wealth and very much not to do with background and breeding. Members of your "old boy's club" have come to me when they needed sponsorship to the clubs to which they truly want to join. (Lineage. Look at the first book of the New Testament.)

Finally, I appreciate your comment that you are really good at your job,...and if so, I truly hope that your work ethic, your work product and results are rewarded. I have absolutely no problem with that.

inman said...

anonymous @ 4:13 said

"As examples of what I mean by racism, you can look at the comments of, among others, inman, who seems to assume that white men are per definition smarter than everyone else."

I don't think I have ever commented on the intellect of anyone, by virtue of race, creed, sex, sexual toys or automobile preference.

You give me cause to rest my case.

Oh...and to correct something that is all too rampant in a Mickey D's world prone to abbreviation..."per", in the context of your comment, betrays your education. "Pursuant" is the appropriate term.

inman said...

anon @ 4:17 providing even more ammunition said:

"Except pretty clearly not only Duke students were posting there. Besides Duke isn't required to put up with racist, sexist, uneducated, nasty comments from its students or anyone else."

Who, pray tell, is the arbiter of racist, sexist, uneducated, nasty comments?

You? The editor? The Chronicle staff? As a threshold matter, let's at least identify the censors.

inman said...

KC...did I say something wrong? The blogger software slapped my hand and wouldn't allow a post.

So I shall slink away to my "race aware" and "gender aware" and "class aware" and "religion aware" corner and sulk.

(To all those special interest and marginalized groups, even if you have only one person in your group, please excuse my non-recognition of your deserved and well-earned status "pursuant" to legislative fiat in the United States.

Anonymous said...

Finally, please accept my apology for failing to close the paranthetical phrase.

KC Johnson said...

Should be no problems with posting comments .. . e-mail me if there are. It might be a bug in the blogger upgrade to the new version.

Anonymous said...

A little late to this thread.

But here goes.

The settlement made by Duke with their former students without doubt covered the DUMC.

For those of you who are familiar with malpractice law or with medical practice know that the mere misstatement of a licensed hospital employee or care-giver (RN, MD, etc.) can be actionable, e.g. "The tests show you have X-disease," when in fact you don't, or vice-versa.

The medical record is a legal document, always and forever.

Mischaracterizing the salient medical findings or failing to correctly document or transmit said findings, can be actionable.

Worse still is getting the findings wrong, communicating those findings to others, and failing to correct those errors.

In other words, if what has been represented with regard to Ms. Levicy' actions are true (and there is little reason to think otherwise based on the information available to-date), she committed malpractice and would be held liable as such.

Of all of the liabilities that Duke faced in the post-Hoax aftermath, the medical liabilities were the largest and most easy to prove for the plaintiffs.

And no, we will likely never learn the true facts of the settlement, but the DUMC is one of the key elements contained therein.

Anonymous said...

kc, he didn't apologize for misspelling "parenthetical" ... I wouldn't let him post here anymore.

j/k!

r.r. hamilton

inman said...

rrh...I actually noticed that spelling error after the fact, but because I was sulking, chose not to correct.

I love a good laugh. It makes the day bright.

Thank you!!!

Anonymous said...

No malpractice - no liability - the exam the Doctor, assisted by the nurse cleared the defendents. The NC AG said so. The record does not support the lies told about this nurse. What exactly were they getting DUMC for?

mac said...

9:30
Get a life.

Anonymous said...

Not only have a life, but the shinning halo of truth.

mac said...

10:08
And crap for a vocabuylaryal
about ytrljrls.

Lay off the tequila when you post.

mac said...

Gottlieb might be joining Nifey at the Nifong Memorial Landfill Apartments & Retirement Center.

March 23 - where he allegedly recognizes several of the players -should prove intent. I'd guess that he's high on the list of people the parents want to see prosecuted, sued, boiled and beaten. Or some combination of those, anyway.

"Oh, frmr. Sgt. Gottlieb! You look different in fluorescent orange!"

Anonymous said...

I, for one, would be happy is KC saw fit to ban words like "whore" from his blog. Such guidelines on language--and I don't think they'd hurt anyone; I mean, why do you want to call people names???-- would go a long way to raise the level of discussion here.

I'd also appreciate it if people would quit making racially based assertions (standards dropped, etc.) without providing a link or citation for the source of their information.

Anonymous said...

Calling Chrystal a whore is not "calling her a name". It is simply an honest way to describe her.

mac said...

3:49 and 9:39

I think the solution to the name-calling is to think of CGM as a resevoir.

Anonymous said...

As a retired Police Sgt from a REAL Police Department in the north east,I am embarrassed and ashamed of "cops" like Gottlieb. He is a disgrace and would have been fired a long time ago had he had been on the job up here

mac said...

10:10
Good point.
He wouldn't last in my city, either; he'd be transferred to some job as a building code inspector or zoning or something where bullying is de rigeur, and is something of an art form.

Anonymous said...

Tequila, come on mac, begas’ drink of choice is not nearly so discriminating. Even if begas could find a joint that sells tequila during her trolls down Fremont, she could not come close to affording it. begas is a Thunderbird connoisseur.

mac said...

2:34
Good point!
(Or Ripple.)

Anonymous said...

Neither Levicy or Gottlieb have lost their license, jobs,had discipline action taken against them or had civil suits filed against them. Poor sports and losers. Not man enough to admit you were wrong.

Anonymous said...

begas has a new cause – Gottlieb.
begas can you possibly become more certifiable?
Scrape away the pigeon crap and take another big pull on the Tbird.

Anonymous said...

Not everyone drinks alcohol or has a frame of reference related to booge.

Anonymous said...

Hey begas,

booge, hahaha.

Scrape off the pigeon crap, have another long pull on the Tbird and sing the praises of Gottlieb...BOOGIE OOGIE OOGIE

I am thoroughly bored with you now.

Anonymous said...

See 3:33

inman said...

Dear 4:00 PM,

My flrame of refelrence hasss all wieghs bin booge.

Anonymous said...

See 3:33

Anonymous said...

As you write KC - no record of discipline action against Gottlieb - or the rest of the cops involved for that matter.

Anonymous said...

Can we hope the noise machines have run down? See 3:33 and put that in your pipe and smoke it,

mac said...

I have a better suggestion for where 3:33's post should be placed, and it isn't in a pipe that you can smoke.

Anonymous said...

Truth will out. You may not like it but it is still true.

mac said...

3:fitty,

How's the Thunderbird?

Anonymous said...

See 3:33 - Read it and weep -

mac said...

12:16
Oh. You mean EX-DUMC Nurse Tara.
I don't know if she LOST her job or her license, but it appears she no longer possesses either one in North Korealina.

Read it, wipe away your tears and take another pull on your cheap bottle of "booge."

Anonymous said...

See 3:33 - She quit her job and her license is inactive - not revoked, suspended or disciplined against, Quess you bloggers are not as powerful as you think and have been ignored by the DUMC and NC Nursing Board.

mac said...

12:59
I would suggest that you get a life. How would you know if she wasn't disciplined?

Are you a family member? A boyfiend?

Anonymous said...

See 3"33 It is all public record - Surprised you are unaware of that - Oh sorry, another attempt to put out disinformation.

Anonymous said...

don't have time for you today Mac - going to the PGA for fun.

mac said...

Sounds like you're a stalker.
(If I were Nurse Tara, I'd be more worried about you.)

How's the Ripple, anyway?