Comments and analysis about the Duke/Nifong case (2006-2014).
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58 comments:
My one question to Mark Gottlieb: Was it worth it?
I simply cannot imagine getting to the point where one wishes to end one's life. Gottlieb's actions in the Duke case certainly led to his being "retired" and I cannot help but wonder if it led to this very sad conclusion.
Maybe, just maybe, a good name is not something to be ignored. Gottlieb chose another path and while he did not receive the legal punishment that should have been his for fabricating a number of things, nonetheless he did not leave the case unscathed.
The Apostle Paul wrote: "Do not be deceived; God is not mocked. What a man sows, that shall he also reap." We know what Gottlieb sowed, and what he reaped was a sad harvest.
Please remember that he leaves a widow and three small children and speaking ill of the dead makes you a sinner too.
Quite honestly, is he another victim of Mangum and Nifong?
Eternal rest, grant unto him O Lord and let perpetual light shine upon him.
May he rest in peace. Amen
Don't judge others unless you have walked in their shoes, which no one has. He was a kind and funny man, a loving husband and father. Let his family now have peace as they mourn his death.
I knew Mark personally and I can tell you he was nothing like the press tried to portray him. He and I went to the same church and were part of the same Sunday school group and he would often lead the group in prayer. His physical appearance made him seem like a gruff character but nothing was further from the truth. He was a very kind and soft spoken man whenever i was around him. Mark also had heart issues and in one case during class an ambulance had to be summoned. I'm not sure how much his health issues were related to the case or his decision to commit suicide but it was obvious the lacrosse case was having a negative impact on his life and was the reason he moved from Raleigh to GA. May he rest in peace.
Gottlieb was evil. He was more than willing to lie to get 30 year sentences for the falsely accused in the DukeLAX frame.
Maybe Nifong will be next to swallow a revolver.
Vic @ 11:18 PM said...
"it was obvious the lacrosse case was having a negative impact on his life"
Glad to hear that. Unfortunately not enough to come clean for what he and others did, but it's satisfying to know that he did suffer.
All I know is Mark was very well liked by the members of our church. He was an active member and volunteered a lot of his time. I don't know how he conducted himself while he was in uniform but it has always been my suspicion that he was put up to a lot of the things he did by Nifong. Just speculation though.
Without forgiveness, Matthew the Evangelist would have remained Levi the Publican, Peter the rock of the Church would have remained Peter the denier and Paul the Apostle would have remained Saul the tentmaker.
Thou shalt not bear false witness.
Well, who worked with Levicy to gin up a phony claim of medical injury (so there would be probable cause)?
Who worked with Samiha Khanna to create the "Dancer Gives Details of Ordeal" article, which was full of errors (Ie, lies) and ignited a firestorm in the community?
Who carefully stood apart and signed no documents (but let rookie Himan sign everything)?
Who researched the players so as to dig up dirt on them in order to further pressure them into plea bargains? (And smeared their reputations in the meantime?)
If the lacrosse case did indeed contribute to his suicide, then didn't the actions of Nifong, Brodhead, Steel, Levicy, Bell, and others also contribute?
Have they any comment to make, or any apologies to offer, or any contrition?
As far as church-going, the place for the clergy and laymen was to be at the side of the falsely-accused. This would have been so even if they had been guilty; but how much more so if they were innocent?
Instead, the only thing the church did was to hold a couple of inflammatory rallies, at the worst of which Black Panthers were invited as keynote speakers. (Former Panther leaders have called for the literal extermination of Jews.) Lacrosse players, whites, and Jews, were denounced from the pulpit--to snickering and laughter from the congregation (which included Durham civic and civil rights leaders).
Maybe the clergy were afraid they would get their robes dirty if they associated with unpopular suspects. At any rate, they marched with the mob. And I have no reason to think they will act
any differently the next time.
I do NOT rejoice that Mark Gottlieb came to this end, nor am I making a judgment on him. However, when faced with a choice to do right or wrong, Mark Gottlieb CHOSE to try to frame three young men for something that never happened.
For those who mention his family, has anyone remembered the horrendous effect this case had upon the families of the accused? David Evans's grandfather died during the ordeal and his family members pointed out just how badly the case stressed him and how it helped drive him to death.
What about the effects upon Kathy Seligmann and her family, and upon the Finnertys? They did not deserve the wrath that came upon them, wrath that came about because Mark Gottlieb chose to lie, write false documents, and engage in a frame-up of innocent people.
As far as I know, the man never apologized for his actions, actions that set some horrible things into motion.
I do not speak ill of the dead, sir, bit I DO speak ill of the actions that this man committed eight years ago when he was alive. Mark Gottlieb had a choice and he took the road to perdition. No one forced him to do this, just as no one forced him to take his own life and leave his wife without a husband and his children without a father.
I am not gloating or "running a victory lap." This is very sad and I do not wish such things upon anyone. Furthermore, if Gottlieb was troubled by his own actions, there is confession, something that perhaps could have contributed to real healing not only with him but also to those people he victimized.
Actions have consequences, and bad actions have bad consequences. None of us can escape that reality.
How dare you speak of things you know nothing about. Walk a mile in a man's shoes first. Mark was a good man and was recently fully exhonorated from all charges of falsification. As a very close friend of the family, let them grieve the loss of a husband, father, and son. The tradgic course of events is unbelieveably painful. It is done. It is over. Please let it go.
"and was recently fully exhonorated from all charges of falsification."
Sorry, but that's not correct.
People are complicated.
Everyone of us has a bright side we show and want others to see. And a dark side.
Mark Gottlieb had the misfortune to have his dark side exposed for all to see. But he obviously had a bright side, which he shared with his family and close friends.
I am with Bill Anderson, in his realistic and uncompromising view of Mr. Gottlieb's behavior as a detective. It is highly unlikely that the Lacrosse hoax was the only time he tried to hurt innocent people.
I also sympathize with those who knew his better side, and agree that Mr. Gottlieb's children do not bear the sins of their father.
Death closes a lot of doors. It is the way of all flesh.
We also have a tradition in our culture to let most of those doors close quietly.
"Mistah Kurtz - he dead".
Jim Peterson
Mark Gottlieb never was exonerated. For that matter, his actions and words fully conflicted with the truth, so there could be no exoneration.
There can be confession and there can be forgiveness, but not exoneration. That only is for the innocent, and Gottlieb was not innocent.
As for "walk a mile in his shoes," I cannot say that I ever have been in a position in which I could fabricate a police report or tell lies to a grand jury, given I never have appeared before a grand jury. No doubt, there was some pressure placed upon him, especially after he lied at the beginning. It would have been hard, once the "horse was out of the barn," to try to put the horse back in.
What I can say is what we actually know: Mark Gottlieb lied to a grand jury and he lied on police reports. He lied to everyone involved, and he also served as a conduit for the lies told by Tara Levicy.
What he did was a serious crime. The man should have gone to prison, and others have gone to jail for much less.
So, while you might mourn the passing of your friend, do not compound the issue by lying about his record. Gottlieb's record speaks for itself. God IS not mocked.
There is another point I think needs to be made. Mark Gottlieb, in confronting Ryan McFadyen after the "discovery" of the infamous email, told Ryan that he could be charged with "attempted murder."
Furthermore, he urged Ryan to implicate his teammates and tell Gottlieb what he and Nifong wanted to hear. Instead, Ryan told the truth and by keeping his integrity, Duke University and Durham unleashed a world of fury upon Ryan and his family.
Don't forget that point. Ryan to this day pays a price because he would not lie to Mark Gottlieb.
The entire state of NC pays a heavy price to this day because of that case and the way Duke threw everything just to the wind.
I take no pleasure in Mark Gottlieb's death and of course I have no way of knowing the extent to which his actions in the Duke Lacrosse case motivated him to take his own life. I sincerely wish his family peace and comfort at this difficult time.
I did not know Gottlieb personally and so I am not in a position to mourn him. I only know him by his public reputation and reported actions. These do not shed a favorable light on him.
It is almost beyond dispute that he manufactured evidence in the Duke Lacrosse case, namely that long report written months after the initial allegations and investigation that was promptly leaked to the New York Times in an attempt to salvage the case in the public eye. Gottlieb was never called to account for this act, which very likely constituted criminal behavior. Then there were his actions vis-a-vis the Durham cab driver, Elmostafa, who was brought in on an old, weak warrant and who claimed that Gottlieb attempted to coerce him into changing the alibi information he gave on behalf of Reade Seligmann.
Such actions speak for themselves. But, unfortunately, there's more. In the aftermath of the case's implosion, Gottlieb provided a deposition for Mike Nifong's disbarment proceeding that rivaled Nifong's for defensiveness, dissembling and false denial. And he, like Nifong, never offered a meaningful apology to the three falsely accused lacrosse players, their families, the rest of the team, Coach Pressler and the many others who suffered in no small part as a direct result of his actions.
It would be worthwhile to see if Gottlieb's death is at all related to the effect of the Duke Lacrosse case on his life. Together with the man Crystal Mangum murdered, the body count resulting from Mike Nifong's unethical, illegal acts is rising, and it is no exaggeration to say that Nifong has blood on his hands.
It is ironic that so soon after Mr. Cohan's comments to the effect that some wanted Mr. Nifong dead in the ground, that Mr. Gottlieb would die, apparently by his own hand. I wouldn't choose to see either of them in the ground; I would much rather they had acknowledged their wrongdoings. It would not have bothered me at all if they faced no further punishment. At this point (especially after Mr. Cohan's book) an honest accounting of what really happened would be infinitely more valuable.
I knew a bit about Gottlieb...basically from friends on the force at the time. His reputation was not good, and apparently, neither were his ethical standards. That said, my sympathy to his family. Another casualty of the hoax and more blood on the hands of Mangum and Nifong.
Vic wrote: "All I know is Mark was very well liked by the members of our church."
When I consider a person's character, the likability of the person in their groups is one of the last measures I'd trust as a reliable measure. Groups tend to assess according the individual's fidelity to the purposes, values, norms of the group. If an individual strays, (doesn't go along with the program), even for high-minded reasons, that person is apt to be marginalized or expelled because they have become a threat to the group, unless the group is comprised of especially principled individuals. Group members who 'toe the line' in any group are typically considered in a favorable light.
In addition,individual's 'station' in life is not a reliable indicator of how they will respond to opportunities to behavior honorably or not. We have among us all degrees of education, job type, earnings, race, religion, nationality---people whose behavior is principled and those who when challenged behave in the unprincipled way of predators who seek to exploit opportunities for personal gains and satisfactions.
There are some among us in positions of power who are essentially incorruptible, who could not slander or otherwise betray young people, foolish though their behavior might be at times. The young are entitled to occasional foolishness. In my opinion, the occasionally foolish make the best adults because they have acquired humility and aren't as easily convinced of their own superiority. It is the superior in their own mind's individuals who we have to watch out for. They zero in on other's foolishness as an excuse for their betrayals, all the while failing to see that what they are doing is even worse. I put certain Duke administrators in that category.
That said, I am sorry for Mr. Gottleib and his family. He might have fared better if he had acknowledged and repented for his alleged misbehaviors while in uniform. He may have done this, just not publicly. We don't know what other forces he had to deal with in his life (this is a variation of 'we haven't walked in his moccasins'.) I wish he would not have suffered beyond the pain of acknowledging wrong-going. I wish his family well, and I wish them clarity about all that transpired. I wish them healing.
Maria
As many Duke students will remember from the years leading up to 2006, Mark Gottlieb was an aggressive, ugly, brutal bully in uniform in his dealings with Duke students. This was one of the reasons Duke University asked Durham to move Gottlieb off the Duke beat, resulting in his demotion to the property crimes division in Durham police department, which reportedly Gottlieb resented intensely. It has been speculated that this burning resentment drove him to twist Crystal Mangum's initial property claim that Kim Roberts had stolen $2000 from her purse into a false allegation of rape.
If Mark Gottlieb was later nice and repentant in his church, it may be that he knew the direct role(s) he had played in manufacturing a false case against innocent people.
Good riddance.
Mark 11:25
And when ye stand praying , forgive , if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Not forgiving is as toxic as not repenting. I hope for peace for the man's family, and peace for those who were wronged.
It is quite possible that the blood of Gottlieb's death is on Cohan's hands. Gottlieb may have come to the realization that after the Cohan's pathetic attempt to whitewash Nifong and the ensuing public backlash, that he was never going to be able to put the matter behind him and he took the coward's way out.
It would be a fitting memorial to Officer Gottlieb for Linwood Wilson to sing at his funeral.
The way I treat others is an expression of who I am not what they have become. I am sorry Gottlieb made these alleged mistakes and caused such harm. I don't know what goes in to the making of a person who would do what he is alleged to have done. I wonder if he wished he'd taken a different path? I would not make the mistake of giving power to individuals who prey on others in their care, I know better. I wish people of this persuasion no harm but the pain of awareness--- clarity and contrition about what they have done. The truth often hurts...but distortion, projection, the type of falsification we've seen throughout the Duke case and now in Cohan's book, can lead to more devastating consequences.
I wish Gottlieb's family the best, that is, coming to terms with the truth. 'And the truth shall set you free'.
Throughout history, it appears that many leave this world believing their own tall tales about why they did what they did that had terrible consequences. Most have help staying on the 'dark side', i.e. they can usually find people who believe them. (Even Dr. Joseph Mengele had a cadre of supporters). Humanity must rely on truth-tellers to set things right.
I am praying for Officer Gottlieb, his family and friends, that they may find peace in the light of truth.
~ Maria
Hey Vic. Mark was my stepfather. Can someone tell me whats going on? No one in the family will respond.
"Walk a mile in a man's shoes first."
No thank you. I like my own shoes better. They don't take me down the path of punishing the innocent.
Duke Prof
What a bunch of self righteous a holes. May you all burn in hell.
durham resident
durham resident: most of the contributors here would not bear false witness and they care about the truth and protecting the young and the innocent. That IMO means they are righteous and worthy of our respect even when comments are unkind.
Personally, I wish Gottlieb were still here and struggling as we all do to come to terms with our life choices.
So if duke bears false witness and they do not care about the truth and protecting the youth and the innocent they are unrighteous and not worthy of respect, even if they may show a sick grin of false kindness as their emblem to the world. I don't think they mind too much - just as long as The Duke and his Dawg don't embellish a bottle of whiskey - what the heck do they care?
For the relatives and friends of Gottlieb, this is how he acted towrd Duke students:
Students criticize lax cop's behavior - Violence, dishonesty alleged against DPD investigator Gottlieb
IOW, pretty much a dickhead who repeatedly abused his authority as a policeman.
Heh, Righteous Thug -
Thanks for retrieving the link to that article on Gottlieb's bad behavior.
It was well known on campus that the incident that got Gottlieb removed from the Duke beat and demoted to the property crime's desk was his needlessly slamming a female student to the ground, breaking her nose. Unfortunately for Gottlieb, the girl happened to be a daughter to one of the Duke Trustees. I'll bet he wished he'd stuck to roughing-up foreigners.
No sympathy.
As for his family, I can feel sorry for his children, who had no choice in who their father was. But his wife must have had a clue about the character of the man she was marrying.
Mark Gottlieb
Obituary
Guest Book
"I have fond memories of growing up on Beaconsfield with..."
View Sign
GOTTLIEB
Mark D.
Mark D. Gottlieb, age 51, passed away on Saturday, July 5, 2014. He was born in Toledo, OH, to parents Bob and Estey Gottlieb.
He is survived by his wife and 3 children.
Contributions may be made in his memory to
or the Shriner's Hospital.
Published in Toledo Blade on July 10, 2014
- See more at: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/toledoblade/obituary.aspx?n=mark-gottlieb&pid=171673678#sthash.XLtvlS4G.dpuf
Anon @ 7/10/14, 6:09 PM
You're welcome!
I was kinda surprised that the article was still on the Chronicle site, found the link to it in the notice of Gottlieb's checkout.
Thanks for the info in re: his demotion to property crimes - I knew that it had to do with his abuse of Duke students, but didn't know the details.
/rt
Anonymous @4:09----I have no use for them and want no dealings with them. I wouldn't recommend that any parent send their children to Duke.
The one thing I can!t get out of my mind is the response of the university's Catholic priest to the innocent. He could have reserved judgment. Instead, he rejected them. As I said, who we are cannot be ascertained from our positions, we are our responses. As such, a simple grocery store clerk who cares for her own and speaks the truth can be better than the university president or priest who sell out on their own people on the basis of the perceived "badness" of the ones they condemn---while failing themselves to stand on principle.
~. Maria
No doubt Mark and Wes Covington are in Heaven discussing their regrets for failing to destroy the falsely accused.
Cops see a lot of crap during their careers, especially in holes like Durham. A lot of them end up eating their guns. Gottlieb probably offed himself with nary a thought to the lacrosse case.
Is Officer Gottlieb receiving the full official honors he so richly deserves? Will the police escort his procession past the Duke campus and the LAX practice field?
Does anyone know if Gottlieb was a Communist?
Was he buried face-down?
As a matter of fact and public record there was a protection order due to an incident in may that ended with Gottlieb on the courthohse lawn with a gun in his mouth.
Still another restraining order to protect his own niece and nephews from him but yet he was discharged from the mental facility to the same address.
but then found dead by his brother ?
I smell another hoax or coverup.
I see a tragedy calling for compassion for those whose lives were not well lived.
Maria
While we are talking about the suffering of families let's not forget how much pain was inflicted on Pressler's wife and children as well as on Pressler himself. No one can wholly recover from what Gottlieb did or Richard H. Brodhead to their lives.
KC You and your hooligans are all guilty of keeping up the harangue and the harassment of this man and his family. You can shout your denials in all caps if you want but you can't wipe your hands of this. The comments that protest overly much are quite revealing in your effort to distance. But there is consequence to your nasty jealousies. Shut down the blog. It's the trashy residue of your own bloody obsession. That's your price KC and crew for failure to know when to stfu
3:17 Anonymous: You are wrong. Those who hunger and thirst for righteousness are our saviors. You know what they said after the Holocaust: Never Forget. They do this so the sins are not repeated. If you look throughout history you will discover that it is the truth-tellers who carry the good forward. The people whose behavior is unprincipled drag us down. We MUST have people like KC helping us to differentiate between what is moral and what behaviors must be squelched because they cause such harm.
Your construction is built on weak and shifting sand. KC' has built for us a solid foundation that includes fidelity to laws and principles that bear better fruit than lies and other deceptions.
Maria
"It's the trashy residue of your own bloody obsession"
Bloody obsession with what? Truth and justice? How awful!
We have all been preyed upon, some to more devastating consequences. Other's badness does not excuse our subsequent behavior.
If I could protect the little children from the sins of the fathers and the wrath of the victims, I certainly would.
I am incapable of caring more about his children than he did - he chose to break the law, he chose to kill himself, and they have to live with it. He never gave a thought to the damage his bad decisions would cause to his family, so why should I?
Why would you wish to emulate him? You can choose to care because you want to be a better person, to have peace in this life, to do good where you can do some good, and as an expression of your values. You do this because it puts more good out there.
Maria
Lawless people like Gottlieb are able to perpetrate damage and harm to innocents because others sit around "putting good out there", which is the same as enabling those who would steal our rights.
I, for one, would rather that criminals with badges get named and shamed. Maybe more of them would kill themselves, doing us all a favor.
To Anonymous 4:26---I don't agree and I'll tell you why. Our problem and the reason perpetrators survive and thrive, isn't because some of us are good and righteous, dignified and compassionate, i.e. or as you might frame it, too nice to do anything to stop bad behavior. Perpetrators survive when others pretend/imagine/talk themselves (and the perpetrators) in to believing they are good people with just as much integrity as everyone else. Perpetrators survive because equivocators support them. They fold when enough others, in the right position, are willing to see the ugly truth about them. When they are held accountable for the harm they have caused. Some would call these supporters "Enablers". Whatever, they survive because there are so many people with shaky integrity who throw support their way because it benefits them in some way. It is the very principled people, such as KC Johnson, the student's lawyers, and some contributors here, who expose corruption for what it is. These are the people who save us from lawless people.
I don't mind naming and shaming, it serves as a deterrent to future misbehavior. But I wouldn't wish most people who've done bad dead because I have hope they could come to terms with what they've done, repent, try to do some good. How many do, I don't know, so your points are not without merit.
Maria
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