This widely acclaimed and meticulously documented volume illustrates, in painstaking and disturbing detail, the nature of fraternity gang rape. Drawing on interviews with both victims and fraternity members, Peggy Reeves Sanday reconstructs daily life in the fraternity, highlighting the role played by pornography, male bonding, and degrading, often grotesque, initiation and hazing rituals.
In a substantial new introduction and afterword, Sanday updates the incidences of fraternity gang rape on college campuses today, highlighting such recent cases as that of Duke University and others in the headlines. Sanday also explores the nature of hazing at sororities on campus and how Greek life in general contributes to a culture which promotes the exploitation and sexual degradation of women on campus. More broadly, Sanday examines the nature of campus life today and the possibility of creating a rape-free campus culture. [emphasis added]
But, of course, Allison and others in the Group of 88 firmly believed in the presumption of innocence.
Hat Tip: L.W.
151 comments:
I just searched
"gang rape" fraternity
and the first page olny come up with references to the book.
I wonder if the "culture of gang rape" is all that prevelant?
The second google page is not much better.
It has a '91 gang (two males) rape incident where the charges were dropped.
And a lot more references to the book.
Here's a web review of "Fraternity Gang Rape" from Amazon.com:
"As an academic advisor, as a student services administrator living in the REAL world, as a fraternity advisor and as a man, I found this book offensive and reductive. From the premise (which is basically "all men are pigs and all women are saints") through the bibliography (much of which is from UNpublished and NON-peer-reviewed graduate thesis work, plus a HUGE amount of anecdidotal (sic) and second-hand material) the book is shot through with biased, agenda-based, overwrought, inaccurate diatribes."
The New York Times says it is not a very good book.
Her book, unfortunately, is neither as compelling as contemporaneous journalism (irritatingly, the book does not identify the fraternity or the university, referring throughout to the "XYZ" fraternity at "U.") nor filled with any special insights due to the author's close-up vantage point.
Hell of an endorsement.
So, the recent "gang rape" at Duke is part of the "meticulously documented volume" that has been assigned.
That alone speaks volumes about the objectivity of the book and the scholarship of its author.
A larger question is how can we take the G88's objectivity, integrity, intelligence, or scholarship seriously when they cling so desperately to a case that will fail to fit with their race/gender/class metanarrative. It makes one wonder if everything they do if complete fiction.
Of course, prison rape is not the only type of gang rapes against males. Gang rapes against males have also been reported as having been committed by street gangs against rival gang members or non-members (rare), or as hate crimes against gays. According to researchers, "gang rape is more common with male victims than female victims.
Medical Forensics
At Amazon, you can save on “Fraternity Gang Rape” if you also buy "Rape Work" by Patricia Yancey Martin, whose synopsis includes:
"...many (rape) victims still find themselves the victims of what has been called a ‘second rape’ by doctors, lawyers, judges, police, and administrators that process them."
Well then, I guess it must be true.
What blatant absence of academic rigeur. Certainly, this stuff belongs elsewhere, perhaps with a self-funded interest group. People are paid money to dole out this stuff to fresh minds? I call academic fraud, and the Emperor is naked!
Mike Nifong: If I only hadn't been so blatant, I might have slipped this case through my good ol' boy system and I'd have my pension.
G88: If I only hadn't been part of the Rape Hoax, I might've been able to continue teaching courses in the Politics of Pokemon and Rampant Gang Rape at Universities, collecting that sweet monthly paycheck.
False Accuser: If I'd only picked a different 3.
Tin Man: If I only...
As a duke parent I'm appalled. I hope someone in the administration down there takes note of this blog and cancels this course!!!!!
That would be the Scarecrow: If I only...
Now, if I only had a brain.
Found this on indianz.com. TOO FUNNY, but I think the Group of 88 should be included:
-----------
This was sent to me BY A MEMBER of Badeagle.com. Even his own people think he's nuts.
-----
Pianist become conservative pundit Dr. David Yeagley today challenged Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to what he called “an insane comment contest” on live TV to determine who is the insane comment champion of the world.
Appearing on a local Oklahoma city TV station this morning, Yeagley said that while he respects Mr. Ahmadinejad’s work, he believes Iran's president will be “no match” for his arsenal of crazy, unhinged remarks.
“I’ve heard Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s nutty rants in the past, and while I think he comes off like a total bananahead, in a one-on-one with me he will be the picture of sanity,” Yeagley said.
In Iran, President Ahmadinejad accepted the pianist's challenge and said that while he was “confident of victory” he recognized that besting him in an insane comment contest “would not be easy.”
“In any competition involving verbal lunacy, Dr. David Yeagley is the favorite going in,” Mr. Ahmadinejad. “I will need to train for this for months.”
But even as the rules for the insane comment contest were being set, North Korean president Kim Jong-Il and televangelist Pat Robertson expressed outrage that they had been excluded from the competition and demanded to be invited.
Within hours, Dr. Yeagley apologized for omitting President Kim and the Rev. Robertson but said that the omission would be corrected: “Me, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Pat Robertson and Kim Jong-Il: that’s the Final Four.”
Also a Duke parent here - I have emailed the provost, vice-provost, president, and members of the board of trustees about this course. This was about 2 weeks ago - no response so far. I am not holding my breath, but maybe there will be changes in the future.
That's right.
College girls don't really get gang raped. Those that 'cry rape' after their drunken consensual sex with a half a dozen or so guys they don't know are nothing more than liars and false accusers ashamed of their promiscuity. Anecdotal stories from these lying false accusers about how their false rapes occured are fantasies. Got it.
This is an example of the damage done by the Duke hoax. It brings all the rape deniers out of the woodword.
Rape isn't a problem. Date rape is a made up category that allows lying women who regret sex to ruin the lives of innocent men. All statistics, studies, personal stories or surveys that support the idea of rape as a significant problem are lies. Okey dokey.
A course like this only heightens Duke's vulnerability to suits by the lacrosse players. Here we have a course taught by a university in which it is alleged that the lacrosse players from that university participated in a gang rape -- a rape that never happened.
As I told one of the lacrosse mothers (unindicted player), Duke continues to rub the noses of the lacrosse players and their families in the dirt.
What exactly is wrong with this course?
The Brain of Rodney King
what i find interesting is, people seem so shocked that this type of instruction is going on, come on guys, this BS was born in the '60s and is nearing the half century mark now. what i wanna know is, where do people that major in this crapola find employment outside of academia?
Allow me to coin a new term for black/women's/queer studies departments.
I combined the following:
1. Angry Studies
2. Indoctrination Studies
3. Pointless Studies
What does that add up to?
AGENDA STUDIES
Agendas are: 1) angry, 2)pointless, and 3) a method by which to indoctrinate
Perhaps we can have a discussion on what these agendas are.
Any other proposals viz name for the "studies" is appreciated.
Polanski
It sounds like Anne Allison's "scholarship" consists of a desire to talk about sex and a hatred of frat boys / male athletes.
Some people actually go to college to learn something they couldn't "learn" by watching Oprah - I don't think it's the people in Angry Studies or modern pop / bubblegum / basketweaving / fluff.
1:44 PM
Actually, rape, as with all crimes of physical violence, assault and injury, are reprehensible to all, including those on this board and most everywhere else. To allege otherwise here is an attempt at baiting, so good luck with the effort.
The Duke case was a hoax. And 3 innocent men still stand accused of crimes that never occurred.
How does something that did not occur change the occurence of rape?
Now, the Hoax DID exist, and that will adversely affect true rape victims.
Actually there are real instances of date and acquaintance rape, where a young man forces himself sexually on a woman without her consent. As someone who directed psych services at a mid-size university, it was not difficult distinguishing the real thing from drunken sex. Usually date or acquaintance rape is not reported.
Of course, the Duke 3 have nothing to do with the above, but I don't think it's an accurate statement that it does not exist.
1:53
That isn't what I see here from a number of posters. What I see here is the 2+2=12 type of logic at work.
This case being a hoax is evidence that all, most or many other rape accusations are also hoaxes.
1:44 PM,
Uh, rape is a problem.
The incidence of gang rape on colleges is exagerated.
Blacks rape way out of proportion to their population numbers.
Athletes are more likely to rape on your typical college campus. Now the race of the team members involved is not well reported. I'll see if I can find some stats.
I did an advanced google search on "millennial postmodernity" and Allison's tripe is the ONLY, repeat ONLY reference that popped up.
There are flippin' CONTESTS offering a TON of cash if someone can put two words together that DON'T have a google match. What's the saying about a monkey at a typewriter?
Here is an interesting anecdote.
Others, noting that the football team's approximately 60-member roster typically includes most of the college's nonwhite students, lamented that cutting the team would deep-six diversity on the 1,200-student campus.
Simberg said that the college's football program has been around since 1923, and as late as the 1970s players came mostly from the Iron Range.
But then declining high school enrollments led community colleges in the region to recruit from outside Minnesota. In southern states they found players who did poorly in high school and couldn't get into the colleges of their choice, and were eager to go to any school that would let them play football.
But the heavy recruiting has drawn fire, in part from those who see a pattern in a string of incidents and crimes involving recruits during the past 15 years. The incidents included the alleged rape last fall of an 18-year-old high school senior in a dorm room by four current and former Hibbing Community College football players, who were charged and await trial.
1:57 PM #1
Your conclusion is as extreme as your "random" sample is biased.
m. simon
I wouldn't know it to read your posts that you believed rape was a problem.
I don't see evidence that gang rape on campus is exaggerated, but the book referred to was written several years ago, and since then most fraternities have made a lot of changes in order to reduce the liklihood of gang rape occuring. It is very possible the actual incidences of college gang rape are going down.
I'm very well aware that black rape rates and black on white rape rates are disproportionately high.
I'm also alware of that athletes appear to commit a disproportionate share of college rapes. There is a lot of info about why this may be, but I'm sure it wold be dismissed as feminist tripe.
For those taking this class, here's a hot item:
http://www.shopping.com
/xPO-Sony-ICD-SX46
The assignment of this book as material for the "course" illustrates the nature of scholarship in this field. One "scholar" endorses the other "scholar".
In the world of blogs, this is known as sockpuppetry, and is considered intellectually dishonest. In the academy, it is known as millenial postmodernity, and may earn you tenure.
Polanski 1:49PM,
Your "Angry Studies" seems to have caught on around here.
I think it works because it is so inflamatory.
"Agenda Studies" will be what colleges call courses that study the "Angry Studies" Movement.
You buckin' for college Prof. or something?
"Pikachu iconizes this weave of relationality taken, I will argue, to the age of
millennial postmodernity."
You should've seen the rough draft.
To James Conrad,
If you've been around since the 60s like me, you should know the answer. The average students (the majority of them) end up as baristas at Starbucks. The "advanced" students go to graduate school, eventually getting PhDs by hanging around like-minded dolts. They then climb on the gravy train, their passage paid by (yes, you guessed it) you and me. Art schools operate in the same manner.
Leaving aside my mounting incredulity at the ever-more-fantastic picture of Allison's course, I offer the following.
Sorry for the length of this post. In response to the post regarding the Sanday book, I went to Amazon.com to see what was posted there about it. Here’s what I found. The review referred to is posted in full on the Amazon site as well. Armed with that disturbing news, I then searched “Duke rape” on Amazon – in addition to a listing for the DVD (complete with head shots of the three players) of the 60 Minutes segment with Ed Bradley (the review of which reads like a bad novel) that also links to IMDb, of all places, there are three pages of other books that come up. Nearly all of them are literary works with the words duke and rape somewhere in the text, but I did find this gem listed as #22 on page 2 of the list:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_2/102-3323090-4903330?ie=UTF8&keywords=Duke%20rape&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3ADuke%20rape&page=2
Total Chaos: The Art and Aesthetics of Hip-Hop
By Jeff Chang (2007) Basic Civitas Books, an imprint of Perseus Books Group.
From the Basic Civitas website: “Directed by Henry Louis Gates, Jr., Basic Civitas Books is devoted to publishing a broad range of titles on African and African American Studies. With works by Cornel West and Orlando Patterson, as well as the forthcoming encyclopedia Africana, Basic Civitas Books will greatly enhance the presence of African American works in the marketplace.”
I then clicked on the link to the reference to “Duke rape” on page 163 of the book (click on “Excerpt – page 163” in the short description of the book at the above site) and found the following excerpt:
Page 163: “Hip-hop’s gender trouble has been well-documented, and if the recent burst of feminist writing, discoursing, and organizing is any indication, many breakthroughs are on the way. Two of the most insightful thinkers on the topic, Joan Morgan and Mark Anthony Neal, sit down here for an extensive and critical conversation about what it means for women and men to be hip-hop feminists. Their discussion is provocative not only for the powerful analysis they bring to subjects like the development of a public hip-hop feminist intelligentsia, the meaning of the Mike Tyson rape trial and Duke lacrosse rape case, and the complicity of both men and women in hip-hop patriarchy but also for how they model building an alternative hip-hop-centric world in their personal friendship and the work that they choose to do. Questions of identity sometimes paradoxically become paralyzing. Neal and Morgan remind us that identity is not a law, it’s not an answer, it’s a process.”
I’ve quoted the entire paragraph so that readers can have it in context to see if they have any better luck than I did trying to understand what Jeff Chang is talking about. As for lumping the Mike Tyson case and the Duke “rape” case together, perhaps Mr. Chang should take advantage of the fact that the book is not scheduled for release until February 28 to correct his utterly misleading description of this matter by reference to more recent events.
As for using Prof. Neal as a source (for two segments in the book), res ipsa loquitur (the thing speaks for itself).
To know that the legal fees in this nightmare are at $3 million and mounting while folks like Sanday and Chang make proverbial hay by trading on this mess is revolting.
It seems that the entire syllabus could be replaced with daily shots of Oprah and the Jerry Springer shows.
Besides, Oprah's book of the month club is a cut above Anne's reading list.
Here's a phrase we'll never hear:
"I'll take Millennial Postmodernity for $200, Alex."
2:05 PM,
I can't cover every thing in one comment.
BTW if you are playing the odds, I'd warn women that they are in most danger from black athletes.
I'm doing some work on IQ and came across a study of white males that said the incidence of serious crime was related to IQ in a very strong way.
If women want to reduce the chances of rape, they would be wise to go to an elite institution in an elite neighborhood.
Now consider that on average black IQ is one standard deviation below white IQ and two standard deviations below Askenazi Jewish IQ and I'd want that top college located in a Jewish neighborhood or a well to do neighborhood. (IQ is somewhat correlated with income, and also somewhat related to the propensity to commit crimes).
Also I would warn them that perfect safety is available no where on this planet. If you are alone firearms are a good idea. Cell phones always. Travel with an escort (preferably male). We are not quite as civilized as we would like to believe.
These people who are fixating on the sex lives of college students remind me of Kevin Spacey in American Beauty , the movie. The interest is just too much. I wonder what kind of warped people lurk behind the academic facade.
(IQ is somewhat correlated with income, and also somewhat related to the propensity to commit crimes).
I think you meant somewhat negatively correlated to the propensity to commit crimes ... around about -0.4 to -0.5
"I'm also alware of that athletes appear to commit a disproportionate share of college rapes. There is a lot of info about why this may be, but I'm sure it wold be dismissed as feminist tripe. "
Why a disproportionate number of rapists are athletes is certainly an interesting and important question.
If I want a serious answer to it, I'll go ask a professor of criminology, history, or neuroscience, but I won't waste my time talking to Professor Allison.
Because they have tolerated so much stupidity for so long, Womens' Studies departments have zero credibility with outsiders.
Sorry, but them's the breaks.
Hey, anon 1:44pm
This is an example of the damage done by the Duke hoax. It brings all the rape deniers out of the woodword.
You might want to wipe the froth off your mouth. Then you might be able to say woodwork.
2:38 PM,
Correct. As I said, I'm studying the matter and my facility with the correct terminology isn't yet what it ought to be.
--Simon---You're not that dense are you? Ole Polanski writes his repetitive crap here. Then he comes back over it and poses as someone who picks up on it and praises it.
RP Polanski poses as many different people making it appear he has great support on this blog.
Honestly, I think that the term Angry Studies is stupid.
Similar to those 88 he tries to attack. It's all so ridiculous.
RP is glued to this website.
These so-called scholars sit around drinking each other's dirty bath water. Any publication gets credit as scholarly work, and there are publishing houses that specialize in this trash. It's the fruits of the radical feminist movement, you see. Now they are entrenched in, among other places, academia and media, and will react like cornered wolverines when challenged or criticized. Intellectual integrity, academic rigor -totally foreign notions to your average wolverine.
PS
Don't make the mistake of assuming that all these creatures wear skirts. There are froth-at-the-mouth male versions also.
Honestly, I think that the term Angry Studies is stupid.
To me it is an honest description of the whole agenda driven field.
2:47
I like Angry, Pointless Indoctrination Studies (APIS). And seriously, consider the move to an off-site, self-funded Policy Studies Institute as an opportunity, not a threat.
Not RP
If I want a serious answer to it, I'll go ask a professor of criminology, history, or neuroscience, but I won't waste my time talking to Professor Allison.
And you would probably find that it's a combination of lower IQ and testosterone ...
2:47 PM,
Polanski and I have engaged in a few e-mail conversations. So my take on him may not be the same as others. From time to time he even annoys me.
However, if he made no more contribution to civilization than "Angry Studies" it would justify his life (assuming no crimes of violence).
My claim to fame is designing and getting manufactured the I/O board that went into the world's first BBS. And no, I have never comitted a crime of violence.
I was one small link in the chain that has brought us here today.
"Questions of identity sometimes paradoxically become paralyzing. Neal and Morgan remind us that identity is not a law, it’s not an answer, it’s a process.”
Now I know why I have no college degree. There was nothing funnier than reading the comments in the other thread as poster after poster either lauded their academic "credentials" or slammed someone else's.
Last week someone posted about needing a good mechanic, and yet, here we have a slew of supposedly educated people making absurd claims about prestige as it relates to a college degree.
Here, let me give it the old college try ...
I have found that when discussing race, gender and class in the postmodern sense of modernism, it becomes a saga of millenial meaning as the years of opression suffered by those who are not worthy of gender identification realize they are slaves to the opressors.
I have processed my identity (although I was careful not to fold, spindle or mutilate it) through the prism of race gentrification as it relates to postmodernism and I find that when I hate myself, others hate me too, because I can't process myself.
Now, can I have a college degree too?
Isn't an agenda often in the eye of the beholder?
I've seen posters here state that women physically abuse men at the same rate as men physically abuse women, and poo poo the disparity in partner murder rates, apparently women don't murder their husbands anymore they go to the shelter. I've seen posters say that the vast feminist conspiracy has gone so far as to reorder the public school curriculums and norms to disadvantage boys. I've seen many post opine about the high rate of false rape claims, using the same handful of 20 year old examples. I've even now seen that men are more at risk of gang rape than women. It must be my agenda, because I see a strong undercurrent of woman bashing in these posts.
"It must be my agenda, because I see a strong undercurrent of woman bashing in these posts."
No, you've seen a good deal of victim studies bashing, big difference.
3:04 PM,
The facts speak for themselves.
Make of them what you will.
BTW there are all kinds of opinions expressed here. Free speech don't you know.
Drop a few facts on us besides "I'm hurt by the tone of the discourse".
In any case the best defence against a rapist is a firearm carried by a woman who knows how to use it.
God may have made women, but Colonel Colt made women equal
No, you've seen a good deal of victim studies bashing, big difference.
---------------------------
It's a tough call when something crosses the line, no?
Domestic violence was for decades not taken seriously by police. It wasn't until a number of high profile cases where police were called, no arrests were made and the victims were subsequently killed by the men, and when the 'feminists' started studying the laws and police procedures and determined you basically had to half beaten to death for something to happen.
A huge backlash resulted, where now all a woman has to do is accuse the man of hitting her and he goes directly to jail. That doesn't mean that domestic violence wasn't a problem, isn't a problem or that women are still not disproportionally victims of violence by men, but it opens the door for abuse of the system by a minority.
The same with rape. For decades you couldn't get a conviction for a stranger rape case without having your entire sex life paraded before the jury. Rape is still underreported, with low rates of arrest, prosecution and conviction and many, many horror stories of court proceedings and victim bashing as well as many documented cases of men being acquitted who went on to commit sex crimes, or men with records of sex crimes getting acquitted becasue the jury was never told. There now exists a huge array of victims services, victim advocates, sensitivity training and so forth to try and correct the false assumptions about rape. This, too, has opened the door to make it easy for women to falsly claim rape and get away with it. It doens't change the fact that rape is a significant problem, little understood still in our society or that there is no evidence that false rape accusation rates are extraordinarily high.
I've seen many post opine about the high rate of false rape claims, using the same handful of 20 year old examples.
All the examples of false rape claims I have seen are in 2005 and 2006.
M. Simon @ 3:16:
In any case the best defence against a rapist is a firearm carried by a woman who knows how to use it.
Amen.
Though given most states' laws, I would also recommend some sort of martial arts, too, and not just a six-week self-defense course. Beating the snot out of an attacker serves as a most effective deterrent to future attacks, and not just on you.
"It doens't change the fact that rape is a significant problem, little understood still in our society or that there is no evidence that false rape accusation rates are extraordinarily high."
Whether we're too stupid to understand the problem of rape or not, we know one thing for sure, there was no rape of Crystal Mangum by three Duke lacrosse players, now don't we?
The rank double standard of the N&O is on display for all to see. They sure made a point of reporting the races of the Lacrosse players and their false accuser. We're onto you, Melanie:
Durham police searching for suspect
From Staff Reports, N&O, Jan 31, 2007
DURHAM - A woman said she was kidnapped and raped early today, and police are looking for the suspect.
A 46-year-old woman told police she was walking on Mallard Avenue just after midnight when a man approached and asked for a light. As she lit his cigarette, he grabbed her and dragged her inside an abandoned house in the 800 block of Mallard Avenue, the woman said.
The man tied an electrical cord around her throat, hit her several times and threatened her with a knife before raping her, the woman told police.
The man fled when he heard police sirens. Police were in the area responding to a breaking and entering call.
The man is described as being in his 40s, 6 feet tall with a muscular build. He was bald and wearing a brown ski jacket and black pants.
http://www.newsobserver.com/141/story/538189.html
-------------------------------------------------------------
Same story from the Herald-Sun:
Info sought on sexual assault
Jan 31, 2007 : 11:49 pm ET
DURHAM -- Durham police are seeking information about a sexual assault that was reported early Wednesday on Mallard Avenue near Elizabeth Street.
A 46-year-old woman told officers she was walking on Mallard Avenue shortly after midnight when a man approached her and asked for a light. She gave him a light and he then grabbed her and dragged her inside an abandoned house in the 800 block of Mallard Avenue.
The man tied an electrical cord around her throat and hit her several times. He also threatened her with a knife before he raped her.
The man fled when he heard police sirens in the area (officers were responding to a break-in in progress call).
The suspect is described as a black male in his 40s, 6-feet tall with a muscular build. He was bald and was wearing a brown ski jacket and black pants.
Anyone with information is asked to call Investigator W.T. Coghill at 560-4583 or CrimeStoppers at 683-1200. CrimeStoppers pays cash rewards for information leading to arrests in felony cases and callers never have to identify themselves.
http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-815037.cfm
I can virtually guarantee you that the victim was black.
It doens't change the fact that rape is a significant problem, little understood still in our society or that there is no evidence that false rape accusation rates are extraordinarily high.
There are two things here:
1. Rapes. One rape is one too many. However, the politicization of this area has not allowed us to study why and under what circumstances men rape women and therefor how to identify likely perps and prevent such things. The politics I am referring to is the usual feminist claims that all men are likely rapists and all women are likely victims.
2. False rape claims. One false rape claim is one too many. The incidence of false rape claims is obviously extroadinarily high. Just look for news reports in the last few years.
3:18 PM
"This, too, has opened the door to make it easy for women to falsly claim rape and get away with it. It doens't change the fact that rape is a significant problem, little understood still in our society or that there is no evidence that false rape accusation rates are extraordinarily high."
Rape is a significant problem, as are all violent crimes. We all know this, even without your presence on this board. Rape itself is not quite the big mystery you make it out to be, although the rates of rape statistics can be discussed Ad infinitum over double vanilla-bean frappachinos till the cows come home.
Meanwhile, without people like Joe Chesire and the other defense attorneys, 3 innocent men would be rotting away in prison and both true rape victims and those falsely accused of rape would have their voices set back 50 years. Meanwhile, the "academic discourse" over coffee continues.
That is why KC started this blog, because he actually wants to accomplish something.
You are wrong. The incidence of false rape claims is NOT extraordinarily high. All false rape complaints get a ton of press coverage, which supports the wrong belief that false rape claims are high. Stranger rape cases also get disproportionate amounts of media coverage further fueling the wrong idea that real rape is about strange men grabbing women off the street and brutally raping them.
Hasn't KC accomplished what he set out to?
Very few people who are not 100% bound to a gender or racial view of the case are now clear that this is a false rape case.
The only people left on the side of the complainant are or should be embarassments to their respective causes, Wendy Murphy, Cash Michaels, etc.
re: 3:18
The problem is that the CJ system is very costly for the innocent; whether they are found innocent or guilty. And states have no reasonable system to recompense the innocent for abuse to their name or in their real damages. Those working in the CJ system have a reason to keep busy in a high-profile way to get elected, keep their jobs or support an old-boy network.
Justice is supposed to be blind. Tilting it towards one group has resulted in undesireable side-effects which we are witnessing now.
I've watched many episodes of law/order type shows and it shows the detectives and/or prosecutors levelling threats or giving someone a hard time as they are potential suspects or to try to get information out of them that they may or may not have. That seems pretty disgusting to me; especially when they hassle many people to try to catch one person.
They can wind up defaming someone or inconvenience them or they might even wind up dead.
Let's try for better investigation of criminal accusations. If there's an accusation, provide an accused shield law too. If they find that they have the wrong person, provide for compensation for his time and damage to his name and be sure to put it in all the papers that they guy is innocent.
"You're free to go" doesn't cut the mustard.
That letter to the editor in one of the Durham newspapers that complained about a black person wrongly convicted and later exonerated was right. There should be outrage in his case and he should be compensated for his time and damage to his name. Same deal with the Fells Acre Day Care case. There's no political benefit to victim compensation though as the public doesn't care.
"Angry Studies" it is. It is the perfect description and needs no qualification or amplification.
Hopefully it enters the lexicon and the originator gets the credit he deserves.
To 2:47 Polanski basher:
If Polanski is "posing" as different posters with an Angry Studies campaign, how do you explain the fact that it was Polanski who wanted to refine the term. I enjoy P's posts, as I do most of the posters on this blog. What I don't understand is your focus on Polanski. I'm convinced you're one of the stupid professors Polanski loves to excoriate. Get a life, asshole.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_1_free_speech.html
Free Inquiry? Not on Campus
John Leo
And the college speech police threaten the liberty of us all.
--
If Hillary gets elected, expect her to bring back Donna Shalala and other left-wing wackos to enforece the Angry Studies speech codes.
In the H-S today some guy from Minnesota wrote a blistering letter. Good stuff.
> Hasn't KC accomplished
> what he set out to?
I do not know what his original goals were but blogs frequently take many twists and turns.
I think that one cannot really say mission accomplished until the charges are dismissed with prejudice.
The next stage would be recompense and charges against the truly guilty.
I'd add Duke admin and
faculty to that list.
I think that there's a book to be written on the anger studies stuff on campuses alone. And another book on wrongful prosecutions. And another on false rape accusations. This case has had many strange sidetrips.
3:45 PM
The Hoax is still on. The 3 falsely accused innocent men still stand charged with felonies that can bring 30 years in prison. Now is a good time to help defuse the Hoax. At least a nod to Chesire, Johnson, and others who helped debunk the case is in order. They're the good guys, and if we take good guys for granted, they might not be around for the next fight.
--3:49 basher and tyrannt:
Go f*ck yourself. This is free speech and you are a PIG! Ole Polanski has another persona for us I see. Defending his own mental illness.
It puzzles me that I have not seen any blogger who even claims to be of the G88 post something here to the effect that he/she feels the players are innocent.
Granted such a post could be by a troll but that begs the question.
If even one post showed up my faith in humankind would be slightly lifted.
Carolyn says:
Excuse me, I am not an expert on defamation lawsuits but hasn't Professor Allison just proven herself guilty of two of its main charges? I.e., slander and willful intent? She proves slander by calling the Duke lacrosse team gang rapists. And she proves intent by declaring she will label the team gang rapists to future students.
Stranger rape cases also get disproportionate amounts of media coverage further fueling the wrong idea that real rape is about strange men grabbing women off the street and brutally raping them.
So, please tell us what real rape is about.
The fantasy picture of rape and patriarchy that the 88 concoct is a reality in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and several other countries. Yet most if not all members of the 88 are major supporters of Hamas and other Islamist organizations that aim to spread Sharia and its hudud laws over the entire planet. Under hudud, a woman who accuses a man of rape is herself punished -- unless she can come up with four "reputable" male witnesses to support her claim.
This whole farce woud be funny except for the fact that it is extraordinarily dangerous.
Anti-Leftist Liberal
To: Humboldtblue:
ABSOLUTELY, you can have a degree from an "almost Ivy Leage" school with that exquisitly phrased prose. May Dr. Brodhead bestow upon you the DR. of Millennial Postmodernity degree! That and $1.25 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. They will even give you a free pot to bang after just 25 purchases. Seriously, your post was very amusing! I enjoyed it.
4:08
That was great. I almost fell off my chair.
Do I need to get my MS first or can I have one of those degrees too?
"They will even give you a free pot to bang after just 25 purchases."
That's hilarious, even more so because I usually go to Starbucks once a day. I wonder if it will be one of those beautiful copper-bottomed pots (Revere ware when I was a kid).
Glad you got a chuckle 4:08
So, please tell us what real rape is about.
-----------------------------
Over 70% of reported rapes are between people who know each other, acquantance rape. When including rapes not reported to the police the figures go to over 80% of rapes happening between non strangers. That means the idea that in order for it to be 'real' a rape has to be by a stranger, include injuries, torn clothing and so forth is a myth.
I predict that Durham, NC will end up like Haiti. The same kind of third world lifestyle and view of right and wrong.
The US has funneled billions of dollars down the sinkhole called Haiti, and they are still in need. Still a lost cause. When people won't work for themselves and are corrupt they will always be a lost cause.
Durham, NC is no different. I wish Duke could get out of that racist dungeon.
4:17 PM
I still cannot understand the role of the pot-bangers and the G88 in supporting the Hoax. Wasn't that conterproductive to effectively dealing with all rape accuations, founded and unfounded?
The fact that we've gone from (1) dropping A-bombs on Japan, with all the cultural, political and military history leading up to that, to (2) an extended period that I remember very well when Americans understood "Made in Japan" to mean "crappy product," to (3) a Japanese airline that flies a jet to LA covered with Pokemon characters because American kids love them, is actually worth studying from a variety of perspectives.
Whether Anne Allison is the best person to do that, or whether she could write about it more clearly, is pretty remote from whether this "hook-up culture" class will be just another exercise in G88 prejudice.
This blog works better when it sticks to the case.
422 And similarly, one might argue that the CJ system works best if Faculty such as Allison stick to pokeman.
I still cannot understand the role of the pot-bangers and the G88 in supporting the Hoax. Wasn't that conterproductive to effectively dealing with all rape accuations, founded and unfounded?
---------------------------------
The hoax fit all of these people's preconceived notions about Duke, Duke athletes, athletes, racism, rape, black women, black victimization, etc.
You might argue the very fact that it seems right out of a novel or bad movie: rich, racist, whites at a privileged Southern, private university, perpetrate a horrifically, brutal, degrading gang rape on a B average working mother, ex military college student stripping her way up the socio-economic ladder SHOULD HAVE SET OFF THE ALARM BELLS.
The story was too good to be true, it read too much like a bad film because it was too good to be true, it was a fantasy.
Unfortunately, things have gotten so out of hand and human nature plays a role as well, people hate to admit they are wrong, that the Group of 88 will never apologize.
My view is that the race and class issues FAR outweighed anything surrounding the crime of rape. My guess would be if it had been black Duke students accused by a local white trailer trash Durhamite the Group of 88 would have come to the defense of the defendants instead.
Race trumps gender every time.
As we talk about I.Q. and crime it's important to specify violent or street crime if you say the correlation is negative. White collar crime as with the Enron and World Com cases is the other way around.
Retired Sociologist
As we talk about I.Q. and crime it's important to specify violent or street crime if you say the correlation is negative. White collar crime as with the Enron and World Com cases is the other way around.
Well, of course, but then people with low IQ rarely get the opportunity to commit such crimes.
Over 70% of reported rapes are between people who know each other, acquantance rape.
Hmmm, so over 70% are cases of she said/he said? Perhaps a good many of them are miscommunication, eh, like the case in Durham that was dismissed because the perp married the victim. That looks to me like he wanted the sex without the responsibilities, and she used the rape charge to get what she wanted, which was someone to pay her bills.
4:26:
Could have said that too ... glad you did.
4:22
"one of those beautiful copper-bottomed ones"
Would that be Crystal or Kim?
That looks to me like he wanted the sex without the responsibilities, and she used the rape charge to get what she wanted, which was someone to pay her bills.
--------------------------------
Sounds like they deserved each other then.
But, that isn't really reflective of most rape cases. It could, playing devil's advocate mean a number of things, including that the woman was the classic abuse victim who keeps on coming back to her abuser.
What kind of man would marry a woman who falsly accused him of rape?
Could be he did rape her, then, apologized, agreed to marry her, she dropped the charges and he's probably beating the crap out of her right now.
To the posters claiming false accusations are rare, what specific proof do you have of that claim?
Every time I see someone claim false accusations are rare they point to that only a small number of women are prosecuted for it. This is not proof they are rare only that the conviction rate is very low for the crime. People who claim rape is rare can make the exact same argument since the conviction rate for rape is low as well.
So please point to specific studies that support the conclusion that false accusations are rare.
Maybe the students could be required to read A Passage to India as well. Its plot hinges on jumping to conclusions about a possible sex crime.
I've posted before numerous examples of false accusations being rare.
The FBI national crime statistics put unfounded rape accusations at 8% and they have been at 8% for many years. Unfounded includes false accusations and accusations deemed unfounded for other reasons.
A recent large study in the United Kingdom found, depending on what is counted as false, e.g. if a third party made a report and both the man and woman said 'no rape' then it was counted as "false"...so depending on those issues the false rape was 3-4% for what we typically consider 'false' e.g. a LIE, or 6% for all false reports including other reasons.
On the other hand, the 'false accusations are common' group tend to site either purely anecdotal opinions...the UK study also found that police routinely over estimated the rate of false rape complaints, a single study from 1987 that found 41% of 109 cases were 'false' or some military records from the 1980s...that would be before DOD was halled before Congress several times for its treatment of women, that found high rates of false reporting.
I would say the UK study since it was recent and large and gives a fairly detailed account of how it was conducted is the best example.
Another eroneous 'example' used by the 'false rape epidemic' believers are DNA exonerations. But if you look at the rape exonerations they are about the wrong person being imprisoned, not that the woman lied about being raped, but that the wrong person was identified.
The idea that women routintely lie about being raped to get back at men after they had consensual sex with them is PURE RUBBISH.
In fact, most false rape stories are just like the Duke story. They involve strangers, violence and heroic efforts by the 'victim' to fight off her attackers. In other words, the false rape story is going to conform to the 'good victim' storyline, not the 'bad victim' storyline of I was kissing him and drunk off my ... and he wouldn't stop when I asked him to.
5:21 - The FBI rate for all other crimes for false reports is 2%. The rate of false reports regarding rape is, therefore, four times higher than any other crime. That almost 1 in 10.
Rare? Unfortunately not.
-Esquire-
-Maryland-
chas s. clifton, 5:16, did you attend Duke in the early sixties when E.M. Forster's "Passage to India" was required reading in English I, taken by most freshmen? It would be an excellent addition and antidote to Professor Allison's Hook-up course, but a bit demanding for a gut course, and, alas, E.M. is a Dead White Male, and that species takes a back seat to current politically correct literary fads.
Esquire,
Do you really consider 8% to be 'common'?
I guess than means that Bush's approval rating at 28% is through the roof popularity.
Race reported in a crime report in Durham? You have got to be kidding me! I live in a neighborhood recently overrun by subsidized housing thugs, and after the 50 or so breakins last year, the usual report would go out "Suspect was 6' tall, average build, wearing a shirt and jeans". Well that freakin' narrows it down.
Rape reports here only mention race when the alledged perp is white - which is less that 10% of the time - that is, 90% of the rapes are committed by maybe 10% of the populace. Durham - the City of Rape.
Race reported in a crime report in Durham? You have got to be kidding me! I live in a neighborhood recently overrun by subsidized housing thugs, and after the 50 or so breakins last year, the usual report would go out "Suspect was 6' tall, average build, wearing a shirt and jeans". Well that freakin' narrows it down.
Rape reports here only mention race when the alledged perp is white - which is less that 10% of the time - that is, 90% of the rapes are committed by maybe 10% of the populace. Durham - the City of Rape.
If crime is that bad in Durham why isn't the city up in arms about it?
Why would the police be pre occupied with hassling Duke students about underage drinking if the place is overrun with thugs as you say?
The issue with acquaintance rape is proving non-consent. So much rhetoric claims that women "don't lie" about rape, so every one so accused is guilty. If 2 people are alone and there is no physical evidence, you can't convict. There has to be reasonable doubt as to what happened.
Do peope stay in bad relationships where the other person abuses them? Of course. Do people make up crap to slag their current or former partners? Of course. How can you tell the difference without physical evidence or an admission from the accused? It's impossible unless you're ideologically committed to a certain position.
This is unacceptable to "feminists", given their ideology and theories. When a significant school of thought construes all heterosexual intercourse as rape you're in exceptionally deep water. The funny thing is that BDSM play is celebrated, even in a hetero couple though of course the preferred situation is either a mixed sex group or homosexual couples. Now what does BDSM play with? And what does it frequently imitate?
Hmmm... So if you have a het couple without leather gear, then this kind of activity is 100% rape, even if the woman "consents", but if you have leather gear and hopefully if you can make it non-traditional it's worthy of celebration.
It certainly seems like prof Allison would be celebrating the alleged activity of the LAX players if only they'd been wearing leather! Soo much idiocy.
>> 5:21 - The FBI rate for all other
>> crimes for false reports is 2%. The
>> rate of false reports regarding
>> rape is, therefore, four times
>> higher than any other crime. That
>> almost 1 in 10.
> Rare? Unfortunately not.
I'm guessing that you do not agree with the number but are arguing that it isn't a small number even if you accept it.
If we accept the number (which I don't), why would it be four times higher than the stats for other crimes? Could it be that there's effectively an incentive to file false accusations?
That's the problem when you try to
tip the scales of justice. Unintended side-effects.
What's the count on that 8%?
Answer: 8% too high. Count up the cost of time, legal costs and reputation for that 8%. Anyone that supports aggressive rape prosecution in a way that violates due process should also demand restitution for false claims.
Of course you don't accept the number, it doesn't fit your BELIEF in false rape as common.
Making you no different that Mike Nifong or the Group of 88.
The majority of evidence about rape indicates that false rape charges are not common, despite what you believe. That they would also be higher, even significantly higher than false reports of other crimes makes sense given the emotional dimension to rape and the fact that rape is hard to prove definitively and hard to disprove difinitively.
What's the count on the 92% of legitimate rape victims, of which, not even a majority get their cases to trial, let alone win them? What's the count for the rape victim who loses her case? What's the count for society for failing to stop the rapist, and allowing him to continue raping women?
The problems related to rape: under reporting, victim blaming, difficulty meeting the legal burden of proof are well known and well documented.
The imaginary problem of false rape as commonplace exists in the same dreamworld where the Durham stripper was brutally gang raped by three Duke students, one of whom wasn't on the premises at the time: dreamland.
>> 5:21 - The FBI rate for all other
>> crimes for false reports is 2%.
This is actually false. It is my understanding, for example, that the false rate of arson reports is more like 8 - 10%.
It sounds to me as if the Sanday Fraternity Gang Rape book is in the same class with Michael Bellesiles's book on gun culture: fabricated scholarship. If the only identified case is Duke, the others being "composites" or whatever, then the data is fabricated. The issue would be to raise an ethical complaint with the chair of Sanday's department, under the scholarly canons that apply to her discipline. (Something similar was done with Ward Churchill; there were no ethical canons directly covering "ethnic studies", so they took the American Historical Association.) Both Bellesiles and Churchill were eventually nailed for ethical violations. It would be a long haul, but I bet you could do the same with Sanday, especially since Instapundit seems to be paying attention.
I think you have to differentiate between:
1) False rape claims that are ever uttered
2) False rape claims that get registered as formal charges
3) False rape claims that get prosecuted
Just throwing statistics around without specifying what constitutes a case is pretty meaningless.
I'd guess there are a lot more category 1 claims for rape than other crimes. Also, CGM's rape claim is the sort that usually would never make it past category 1.
It was my understandin from the FBI that 49% if rape cases are false.
If crime is that bad in Durham why isn't the city up in arms about it?
Why would the police be pre occupied with hassling Duke students about underage drinking if the place is overrun with thugs as you say?
Well, duh. Real thugs carry guns and shoot people--even police officers. No PO will ever be harmed hassling a Duke student. And think how rewarding it must be to cause problems for those uppity college boys.
re: 6:23
> Of course you don't
> accept the number, it
> doesn't fit your BELIEF
> in false rape as common.
I've already commented on the problems with the FBI numbers as have others. You appear to have infinite time to repeat your spiel over and over but I do not.
> This is actually false.
> It is my understanding,
> for example, that the
> false rate of arson
> reports is more like 8
> - 10%.
Fine. I'll give you that.
What else do you have over 2%. I hope that you will agree that 8% is 8% too many.
What is the cost in terms of time, reputation and legal costs of that 8%?
And of the further additional people that are found not guilty which I don't see quantified in the FBI report?
> Making you no different
> that Mike Nifong or the
> Group of 88.
Ad hominem fallacy.
> What's the count on the
> 92% of legitimate rape
> victims, of which, not
> even a majority get
> their cases to trial,
> let alone win them?
> What's the count for
> the rape victim who
> loses her case? What's
> the count for society
> for failing to stop the
> rapist, and allowing
> him to continue raping
> women?
The 92% number isn't legitimate. Of those there are those that are found not guilty that are not guilty. So we have some number below 92%. But that's only a side issue.
What I asked for is a way to make the falsely accused whole or as whole monetarily as possible. The rape victim, true or false already has the support of society. And maybe some potbangers. And some corrupt people in the CJ system. Do you
not have a problem with
the Duke 3 spending $5 million and the rest of the Lacrosse team needing to retain lawyers for a false charge? Do you think that they should bear the cost of a lie?
Why do you have a problem with destroying someones life with no recompense? That reminds me of a certain DA.
> The imaginary problem
> of false rape as
> commonplace exists in
> the same dreamworld
> where the Durham
> stripper was brutally
> gang raped by three
> Duke students, one of
> whom wasn't on the
> premises at the time:
> dreamland.
So you're giving an example of a false rape as an analogy of false rape claims being uncommon? That's a pretty strange twist of logic.
I've read the following statistics in many different places but I haven't seen them listed together like this before. It's from Dr. Melissa Clouthier's blog:
I was surprise of how many false rape accusations have been made by several independent surveys reveal that 42% to approximately half of all accusations made are false. Most cases involve divorce battles involving the custody of children, some for revenge for withdraw of affection, monetary gains, an excuse for infidelity, or misidentification.
• According to the FBI, one of every 12 claims of rape filed in the United States are later deemed 'unfounded,' meaning the case was closed because the alleged victim recanted or because investigators found no evidence of a crime.
• Howard County Police classified one out of every four rape allegations as unfounded in 1990-91.
• The National Association of Schoolmasters/Union of Women Teachers says around 600 teachers a year are falsely accused - a trebling since the 1989 Children's Act.
• Citing a recent USA Today article, discussing the miracle of DNA and FBI studies of sexual assault suspects, DNA testing exonerated about 30% to 35% of the more than 4,000 sexual assault suspects on whom the FBI had conducted DNA testing over the past three years.
• Purdue sociologist Eugene J. Kanin, in over 40% of the cases reviewed, the complainants eventually admitted that no rape had occurred (Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 23, No. 1, 1994).
• 1985 the Air Force conducted a study of 556 rape accusations. Over 25% of the accusers admitted, either just before they took a lie detector test or after they had failed it, that no rape occurred.
• 1996 Department of Justice Report, of the roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases analyzed with DNA evidence over the previous seven years, 2,000 excluded the primary suspect, and another 2,000 were inconclusive.
• Linda Fairstein, who heads the New York County District Attorney's Sex Crimes Unit. Fairstein, the author of Sexual Violence: Our War Against Rape, says, "there are about 4,000 reports of rape each year in Manhattan. Of these, about 50% simply did not happen."
• Craig Silverman, a former Colorado prosecutor known for his zealous prosecution of rapists during his 16-year career, says that false rape accusations occur with "scary frequency." As a regular commentator on the Bryant trial for Denver's ABC affiliate, Silverman noted that "any honest veteran sex assault investigator will tell you that rape is one of the most falsely reported crimes." According to Silverman, a Denver sex-assault unit commander estimates that nearly 50% of all reported rape claims are false.
I believe Mike tyson was set up _ I heard that girl on the radio say "He did not rape me" I an a female - Women need to take more responsibilty for themselves in not getting raped. I read " Well, it should not matter how you are dressed or being out alone - sometimes drunk" But it does matter - leading guys on does not help.
3:48PM,
Originator of Angry Studies
5:21PM,
I posted a link on another thread that said false rape accusations are in the range of 40% +/- 20%.
i.e. 20% to 60%.
I'll see if I can dig it up again.
BTW the incidence of rape (per capita) has declined by a factor of 4 in the last 20 or 30 years.
re: 8:37 Thanks for the post. I found the web site and have bookmarked it and will just trot it out whenever Anonymous says 8%.
Dr. Melissa Clouthier on false rape accusations
Where are all those 'independent' studies that all found 41% of rape complaints were false?
Oh yeah, they don't exist.
I have a strong suspicion that if we burned witches today many of the true believers in false rape as a running rampant through society would be at the head of the line, denouncing their female neighbors for turning their milk sour and killing their cows.
The crap you have posted on THIS thread is nothing but people's opinions, which, for example in the SURVEY that I posted, shows that PEOPLE OVER ESTIMATE the number of false rape claims. THus, what some cop in Denver or Iowa says is not really relevant as 'research'
All you do is post the same stuff over and over that has already been debunked or put in proper context.
But congratulations, I give up. A huge percentage of women are nothing more than worthless liars who choose to falsely accuse men they had consensual sex with of rape, go through vaginal exams for the hey of it, tell police, judges, DA's and juries every intimate detail of their false attack and then, many of these nuts continue throughout their lives to have problems even see therapists to help them deal with their false rape experience.
Over and out. My best wishes go to the families of the three boys at Duke who were falsely accused and railroaded by an unethical DA.
A rape-free campus - that is not possible in Durham, the City of Rape. But what you won't read is that most of the rapes (90% +) are committed by black men on white women. That's not news, afterall - that's just payback for slavery. All of you rapists who were slaves, please raise your hand. Thanks...
I was a member of the xyz fraternity, althought not during the time in question. It is important to note, that case of "gang rape" resulted in no convictions. The girl's own boyfriend testified against her. Not only this but she didn't think she was raped until a friend convinced her otherwise and pushed her to press charges.
KC, I enjoy your articles, although I saw nothing relevant about your reference the other day to the Coleman Committee, which noted that [the lacrosse players drank too much, but also were good students, with good records of community service, and who treated both their colleagues and Duke staff with respect]. I fail to understand the point you were trying to make. The frat guy who drugged and raped me over 40 years ago exhibited all of those "gentlemanly" qualities ... he even conned my parents.
As for Allison’s course ... one of your readers compared this course to basket-weaving. I agree -- what’s the point? Aren’t there enough red flags and warnings out there already?
Earlier, you mentioned Sanday's book, Fraternity Gang Rape, and her reference to group dynamics. Group dynamics is a basic part of human nature, and certainly plays a huge role in fraternity culture. The mentality of a fraternity is identical to that of a street gang as they both live in a world of symbols, signs, and secret rituals, and God forgive them if they ever break the code of silence. Members of fraternities (gangs) believe that strength comes in numbers and that individuals are powerless by themselves. Just yesterday, it was reported that a fraternity member in the Philippines got put away for 40 years for raping 2 girls in an initiation ceremony. In general, KC, do you think fraternity gang rape, drug rape, and plain old date rape have become epidemic on college campuses?
KC, strangely enough, you seemed to know from the get-go that the lacrosse team was innocent of rape. How did you know so early on? I was one of those people who believed they were "probably" guilty. Yet, I also believed that if a woman chooses to strip naked in front of a bunch of drunken college guys full of testosterone, then so be it! Subjecting yourself to a demeaning environment in which you have little control is just plain stupid. It irritates the hell out of me that any female would willingly put herself in a rape-prone situation without feeling any sense of responsibility for her own safety.
Sanday’s Fraternity Gang Rape described similar situations of women taking no responsibility for their own safety, which is why her book disappointed me. And just recently, a girl at Washington State Univ. reported that she fell asleep in her boyfriend’s room and wound up with somebody on top of her at four in the morning. Well, lordy me, how shocking is that! Get real, lady. Try pulling that stunt in the early sixties.
Now that I've offended any feminist who might be reading KC's column, it's important to point out that I vehemently despise men who intentionally seek out easy prey. Sanday says it perfectly: “Greek life in general contributes to a culture which promotes the exploitation and sexual degradation of women on campus”. I know because I lived through it many years ago before the terms "date-rape-drug and gang-rape” existed. I never saw it coming. Forgive me for tooting my blog --
(www.georgia-tech-rape-victim2.blogspot.com)
re: 10:52
[I have a strong suspicion that
if we burned witches today many
of the true believers in false
rape as a running rampant through
society would be at the head of
the line, denouncing their female
neighbors for turning their milk
sour and killing their cows.]
False reports for rape run much
higher than other crimes and are
quite destructive and costly in
terms of time, money and reputation.
That's what happens when you tilt
the scales of justice in favor of
a person or group. You have the
unintended side-effect of false
accusations.
Anyone old enough to have lived
life as an adult knows that people
lie. And sometimes for no real
reason. And sometimes for reasons
that a rational person would find
very troubling.
What I've asked for is fundamental
fairness with an awareness of natural
human behaviour. If you are going
to detain someone over a charge that
overrides due process, then compensate
him heavily. Very, very heavily, if
the accusation turns out to be false.
And punish the false accuser. It seems
to me that you can't ever bring
yourself to the point that this
happens. And that to me is very
troubling.
> The crap you have posted on THIS thread
> is nothing but people's opinions, which,
> for example in the SURVEY that I posted,
> shows that PEOPLE OVER ESTIMATE the
> number of false rape claims. THus, what
> some cop in Denver or Iowa says is not
> really relevant as 'research'
The statistics that you posted from the
FBI isn't research either. I did not see
your survey.
One can make a valid argument from an
expert in the field. Courts allow the
testimony from experts in an area with
challenges permitted from the other
side of course. If you want to debate
a matter, one could use a survey but one
could also work with experts in the field
that deal with the topic at hand. And in
some cases, experts have a better handle
on the topic than the lay people surveyed.
> All you do is post the same stuff over
> and over that has already been debunked
> or put in proper context.
That's my impression of the material that
you've posted with a lack of supportive
argumentation.
> But congratulations, I give up. A huge
> percentage of women are nothing more than
> worthless liars who choose to falsely
> accuse men they had consensual sex with
> of rape, go through vaginal exams for
> the hey of it, tell police, judges, DA's
> and juries every intimate detail of their
> false attack and then, many of these nuts
> continue throughout their lives to have
> problems even see therapists to help
> them deal with their false rape
> experience.
It doesn't help your case when you toss
out strawman arguments like this.
The rates of mental health problems is
probably in the low single digits or
maybe a little bit higher and these
could certainly account for some number
of false accusations.
If we take your FBI numbers of 8%, then
I hope that you would agree that at least
8% of alleged victims do bother to go
through the trouble that you indicate
are strong disincentives. It seems that
in relationships, a lot of nutty things
can and do happen and those things can
be devoid of full rational thought.
> Over and out. My best wishes go to the
> families of the three boys at Duke who
> were falsely accused and railroaded by
> an unethical DA.
I would also like to see structural
changes so that it would be far harder
for a false accuser and a bad DA to
railroad anyone for something that they
didn't do. I think that they call this
justice. And if we do put someone
through hell, that they be properly
compensated to the extent that money
can provide a partial compensation.
Michael, you are truly a knowledgeable individual full of statistical information.
I am especially impressed with your comment regarding the affects of rape:
"the rates of mental health problems is probably in the low single digits or maybe a little bit higher and these could certainly account for some number of false accusations".
When you conducted your survey on mental health problems due to rape, what mental health clinics and hospitals did you contact?
re: 9:08
It runs in my family and having to deal with it in multiple family members means you do a lot of reading on it.
It also means dealing with psychologists, psychiatrists, medication, social workers and sometimes hospitals.
Question for you: do you know what psychosis feels like?
> When you conducted your
> survey on mental health
> problems due to rape,
> what mental health
> clinics and hospitals did
> you contact?
I think that you misread the paragraph that you quoted. Read it again carefully as you seem to imply an implication that isn't there.
Michael,
You are a rape denier plain and simple. There are liars and false complaints for every type of crime and probably someone lied about soemthing in every single case.
Only in rape is the fact that 'some women lie about rape' trumpeted to the far corners of the earth. Only in rape is there a belief that the woman must prove herself innocent and worthy before being believed. I can't remember reading a case about a false home invasion complaint, false robbery report or any other false complaint, but undeniably they happen since they are in the FBI's statistical database.
No one would ever start questioning a robbery or car jacking victim by assuming that he or she was a liar and that they had to prove themselves a true victim. But almost every rape case is handled this way.
You continue to talk about the terrible injustice but you don't have any facts to back it up. There is scant evidence that other than cases from many years ago that were prosecuted without benefit of DNA that men are wrongly imprisoned for rape.
The most recent DNA exoneration was of a man who had been convicted of raping an elderly woman in a home invasion. She never even identified him. He was convicted on circumstantial evidence. Does that make her a false accuser? Or a rape victim whose rapist was not convicted.
The evidence indicates that police do a very good job in weeding out the truly false complaints before they get to the trial stage. Where do you think the statistics come from, anyway.
Yet, you remain convinced that false rape complaints and convictions are at epidemic proportions but all you can do is deny the evidence that shows this is not the case and continue to present specious facts and out of context statements or opinions to support your position. Again, it is imaginary facts to support a belief that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
It is highly ironic that you would tout 'experts' since every expert on rape that is out there says the same thing, that women lie about rape in small numbers, the real problem is unreported rape and in educating the public about the realities of rape in order to do a better job at convicting the guilty. But those "experts" don't count in your worldview because they don't tell you what you want to hear. I wouild also LOVE to see the full content of the quote by the NY prosecutor since she was a pioneer in sex crime prosecution I doubt the context of her quote supports what you try to make it say: that 50% of reported rapes in NYC were false complaints filed by lying women.
> You are a rape denier plain and simple.
1) Ad hominem.
2) Untrue.
> There are liars and false complaints for
> every type of crime
Obviously.
> probably someone lied about soemthing in
> every single case.
A rediculous comment.
> Only in rape is the fact that 'some women
> lie about rape' trumpeted to the far corners
> of the earth. Only in rape is there a belief
> that the woman must prove herself innocent
> and worthy before being believed.
This is clearly untrue. Crystal Gail Magnum
was believed by most at the beginning of the
hoax. Your assertion isn't a fact and I'd need
a fair amount of proof before accepting your
assertion here.
> I can't remember reading a case about a false home
> invasion complaint, false robbery report or
> any other false complaint, but undeniably they
> happen since they are in the FBI's statistical
> database.
I follow The Housing Bubble Blog
and there has been quite a bit posted about
mortgage fraud. And some discussion about
arson related to cars and houses where the
owner is upside-down on their loan WRT to
the market value of the asset. There was
a discussion many months ago about an article
on a person that you could hire to torch your
vehicle for a fee. The mortgage fraud problem
is so big that the FBI has a system to spot
it.
Insurance is an obvious area where those paying
claims have some natural amount of suspicion.
See By the numbers: fraud stats
for the statistics on insurance fraud.
The Guilford College Football assault is
an example where it appears that enough
doubt and care about a reported hoax was
present in questioning the accusers so as
to not cause too much damage to the reputation
of the real victims. M. Simon's blog entry
Sources Say: Palestinians Did It
has a nice writeup on it. In this case,
looking at the accusers' backgound is
useful in determining the credibility of
their claims.
> No one would ever start questioning a robbery
> or car jacking victim by assuming that he or
> she was a liar and that they had to prove
> themselves a true victim. But almost every
> rape case is handled this way.
Torch My Ride: Arson for Hire
[Rowe said that "the likelihood of being caught
[for vehicle arson] has increased tremendously.
It used to be a dark secret but the secret is
now becoming revealed. Investigators are now
being trained and are networking with the
insurance companies to uncover these crimes."
Rowe, a firefighter since 1994, is in charge
of contacting owners of burned vehicles to
make sure their stories add up. While he hasn't
seen any "rotisserie programs," he has heard
his share of lies. Often he will begin his
investigation by contacting the dealership
where the car was purchased to see the sales
jacket (loan contract) of a burned car. If the
owner is upside-down, and particularly if they
recently purchased "gap insurance" to make
sure they were fully covered, they fall under
suspicion.]
> You continue to talk about the terrible
> injustice but you don't have any facts to back
> it up. There is scant evidence that other
> than cases from many years ago that were
> prosecuted without benefit of DNA that
> men are wrongly imprisoned for rape.
Human nature remains remarkably consistent
over time. Which is one of the arguments as
to why technical analysis of the financial
markets is useful.
If we use your FBI 8% false accusation rate,
though, we have a situation that is horrendous
enough.
> The most recent DNA exoneration was of a man
> who had been convicted of raping an elderly
> woman in a home invasion. She never even
> identified him. He was convicted on
> circumstantial evidence. Does that make her
> a false accuser? Or a rape victim whose
> rapist was not convicted.
You would have to look at the particular stats
that you're relying on to determine how that
was counted.
What did the exonerated man receive in
compensation for his time, legal costs and
damage to his reputation though?
> The evidence indicates that police do a very
> good job in weeding out the truly false
> complaints before they get to the trial stage.
> Where do you think the statistics come from,
> anyway.
Why should they even get to the trial stage?
A person gets accused, arrested, thrown in
jail, put under the media spotlight, has to
incur legal costs, loses his job and has a
burden when looking for employment in the
future.
> Yet, you remain convinced that false rape
> complaints and convictions are at epidemic
> proportions but all you can do is deny the
> evidence that shows this is not the case
> and continue to present specious facts
> and out of context statements or opinions
> to support your position. Again, it is
> imaginary facts to support a belief that
> doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
I haven't seen the credible evidence that
you claim exists. If you want to doubt the
opinions of experts, it is your right to
do so. But please dispense with the emotional
pleas to get others to believe what you do.
> It is highly ironic that you would tout
> 'experts' since every expert on rape that
> is out there says the same thing, that
> women lie about rape in small numbers, the
> real problem is unreported rape and in
> educating the public about the realities
> of rape in order to do a better job at
> convicting the guilty. But those "experts"
> don't count in your worldview because they
> don't tell you what you want to hear. I
> wouild also LOVE to see the full content
> of the quote by the NY prosecutor since she
> was a pioneer in sex crime prosecution I
> doubt the context of her quote supports
> what you try to make it say: that
> 50% of reported rapes in NYC were false
> complaints filed by lying women.
I tend to be skeptical about the madness of
crowds. And in trading, one can do very well
fading the crowd. Especially the experts in
the crowd.
The strangest thing about your presentations
is that you pretty clearly don't care about
the true victim of the false accusation. You
don't care about their losses and make no
attempt to provide recompense. You favor an
unjust and unbalanced scale of justice which
is exactly the thing that leads to injustice.
This is exactly the problem with this case,
whether it be racial or gender-based. The
deliberate tipping of scales that pervers
justice. That attitude is horrible enough.
But one adds insult to injury in not caring
one whit about the poor person that has been
falsely accused. That this happens to even
one person is something that should get the
average person and especially the average
parent, incensed. That you have shown zero
concern for the true victims of a false
accusation damages any kind of other point
that you can make.
You are still arguing with a straw men.
There are already procedures in place for assisting those who were wrongly convicted and have been exonerated by DNA, whether for rape or murder or other crimes.
The police do not "compensate" anyone that is investigated, questioned or even arrested when charges do not result. What you want is to treat those accused of rape differently than those accused of other crimes.
We don't compensate OJ Simpson for being "wrongly charged" with murder and we shouldn't. Why should the rape defendant be treated differently? Oh, because you WANT him to be treated differently because YOU believe false rape is common.
I am truthfully much more concerned with the mountain of evidence that says the criminal justice system is not able to convicted rapists who are guilty than with the largely theoretical concept of 'false rape convictions and accusations'
In today's world of DNA testing it is IMPOSSIBLE that the wrong man would be convicted for a crime, if it isn't his DNA then he's not going to be convicted unless there is other evidence or evidence that he used a condom and there is a reasonable, provable explanation for any other DNA found on the victim. Again, your Innocence Project exonerations is another straw man argument.
My main concern is with the statistics that indicate a rapist has a 16% chance of getting convicted, not the statistics that 8% of women MIGHT BE LYING since those statistics concern cases that were not taken to trial let alone resulted in convictions.
You are battling windmills as they say.
> I can't remember reading a case about a false home
> invasion complaint, false robbery report or
> any other false complaint, but undeniably they
> happen since they are in the FBI's statistical
> database.
The Susan Smith case where she claimed
that she was carjacked by a generic
black man who also took her kids. The
police apparently suspected her by the
next day given the interviews they
conducted. If that was a convincer,
asking the couple to do lie detector
tests the following day should be the
clincher.
One other famous case was the Charles
Stewart case where he murdered his
pregnant wife, shot himself and claimed
a black man did it. The black man was
arrested and "confessed" to the crime.
And of course the famous Jennifer Wilbanks and her hispanic kidnapper.
Michael, the following account of rape is true. I am one of many silent victims (during the early sixties) who did NOT tell.
It was drug-rape. I was a virgin. The perpetrator was an upperclassman living on fraternity row (Theta Chi) at Georgia Tech. He was someone I trusted, and I felt safe.
My life was derailed. I never even fronted the rapist because that would mean acknowledging to myself that "rape" had actually occurred. Worse yet, there was a second incident -- this time it was "gang rape", probably an initiation ritual. Nobody can imagine the short term trauma followed by a lifetime of depression, anger, repressed memories, and flashbacks for 43 years.
Jim Dickinson's single most compelling reason for drugging and raping me?
"the constant and overwhelming struggle to convince himself that he liked girls (in that way), and to prove his masculinity to the brotherhood".
"confronted, that is.
> You are still arguing with a straw men.
> There are already procedures in place for
> assisting those who were wrongly convicted
> and have been exonerated by DNA, whether
> for rape or murder or other crimes.
Tell it to Gerald Amirault of the Fells Acre
Day Care Center case. Hopefully you've been
following this blog long enough to know about
the very sad condition of this case even
after we know that he's innocent.
> The police do not "compensate" anyone that
> is investigated, questioned or even arrested
> when charges do not result. What you want is
> to treat those accused of rape differently
> than those accused of other crimes.
I would argue for restitution for many other
crimes where time, reputation and legal costs
are incurred by someone completely that is
completely innocent.
In the case of a false rape accusation, there
is considerably more damage (outside of child
abuse, murder, etc.) done to reputation, and
current and future earning capability.
> We don't compensate OJ Simpson for being
> "wrongly charged" with murder and we shouldn't.
> Why should the rape defendant be treated
> differently? Oh, because you WANT him to be
> treated differently because YOU believe false
> rape is common.
That would make for a rather interesting case.
I don't think that the rape defendent should be
treated differently. It doesn't matter whether
false rape is common or rare.
The real victim is put through hell and should
be compensated for it. That you can't see this
really makes it hard to take you seriously.
> I am truthfully much more concerned with the
> mountain of evidence that says the criminal
> justice system is not able to convicted rapists
> who are guilty than with the largely theoretical
> concept of 'false rape convictions and accusations'
Incoherent.
I guess that you don't care about the "theoretical"
Duke 3 LAX players as much as CGM.
> In today's world of DNA testing it is
> IMPOSSIBLE that the wrong man would be convicted
> for a crime, if it isn't his DNA then he's not
> going to be convicted unless there is other
> evidence or evidence that he used a condom and
> there is a reasonable, provable explanation for
> any other DNA found on the victim. Again, your
> Innocence Project exonerations is another straw
> man argument.
1) It has been mentioned here that there are laws in
some states that a defendent can be convicted solely
on the statement of an accuser.
2) This particular case shows that DNA results are
only as good as the people that do them and that
report them.
3) There is a case of convictions where those in jail
want to have their evidence tested after the fact. In
many of those cases, the officials stated that the
evidence was destroyed so they are stuck with their
potentially wrongful convictions.
4) You have the issue of he-said, she-said.
But the problem is way before conviction. Where you
have to be fingerprinted with your fingerprints then
in databases. And where you have to give a DNA sample
which is again stored in databases. So you've given
up some of your personal information and privacy to
prove that you didn't do something.
And then the issues of your reputation, the arrest
making it way into the newspapers, your time costs,
lawyer costs, damages to your job and future job,
your kids having to deal with their parent in the
media, etc. You have to be pretty heartless and cruel
to not care about this.
> My main concern is with the statistics that indicate
> a rapist has a 16% chance of getting convicted, not
> the statistics that 8% of women MIGHT BE LYING since
> those statistics concern cases that were not
> taken to trial let alone resulted in convictions.
We do have a system with the presumption of innocence.
And who is to say that 16% is right or wrong or too low
or too high. Do you care that people do get convicted
wrongly whether it is the wrong person or they are
falsely accused?
> You are battling windmills as they say.
You might want to work on your metaphors.
re: georgia girl
I went to your website earlier today and read your story.
I have a son and daughter and am totally
outraged that someone can accuse three
sons, get them arrested and indicted for
something that they didn't commit. If the
laws permit that then the laws are broken.
On the other hand, I'm very protective
of my daughter too and I want only the
best for her. There are, of course,
monsters out there. But I've seen the
CJ system too and there's a ton of crap
that goes on there that I would say
isn't in the best interests of the
citizenry. When you have job security
based on metrics, you see some pretty
odd behaviours. It can be something as
simple as parking or traffic tickets
used to enhance town revnue.
Or it can be something like Mike Nigong needing a big case to get elected.
[(1) L. Scott Harshbarger-- MA Attorney General 1991-1999, Democratic candidate for governor in 1998. Mr. Harshbarger was Middlesex County DA at the time of the Fells Acres prosecution, and heavily exploited the publicity in his successful 1990 run for statewide office (Attorney General). In contrast to Earl Warren, who as Supreme Court justice repented of his earlier anti-Japanese racism, Scott Harshbarger so far has refused to admit doubts about the Fells Acres case.]
Fells Acres day-care Ritual Abuse case and the Boston press
There was a case a few years ago in the South about a girl claiming that she was raped by two college athletes and she became pregnant and later miscarried. DNA testing cleared the two college students some time ago but her family is suing the two students in civil court. The press has been responsible and has not published the names of the family nor the names of those that she accused. Though I'm sure that locals know the names of those involved.
I would like to see more protections for those that are accused given the sensationalism typically associated with these cases. The media wants their stories to sell advertising but they don't want to look like the huge fools that the are as in the Duke LAX case.
If we can have a rape shield law, then we can have the same thing for those accused.
The leverage accorded a false claim of rape is currently too high and I think that some of the media has realized this and changed their behaviour. Or they're just afraid of lawsuits.
Regarding your issue with fraternaties: I have no real experience with them as the schools that I went to didn't have them. They did have big athletic programs but I thought that those problems were of benefit to the educational environment for the most part. I was working twenty to sixty
hours a week while going to school so
I didn't see a lot of that aspect of
college life.
You are a rape deniar Michael that's all there is to it.
You are one of those people that has all the sympathy in the world for the "real" rape victim, except that you rarely find any "real" rape victims, what you find are false accusers instead.
It is true for ALL CRIMES that a conviction can be obtained based on the testimony of a single eye witness. It is up to the jury to decide if the eye witness testimony in their view is compelling enough to meet the burden of proof of beyond a reasonable doubt.
Again, you want to make things different for rape cases. You want the victim's word never to be enough in rape cases even though it can be enough in a robbery or a murder case.
The presumption of innocence is for the judge and jury. It does NOT mean the judge, jury or public are supposed to assume the defendant is innocent, eg. the police made a mistake, the witnesses are lying and the person was falsely accused.
The presumption of innocence simply means that being arrested and charged is not counted against the defendant the charge has to be proven, and the presumption of innocence puts the burden of proof on the state not the defendant.
It would be utterly ridiculous for juries to be told to start out the case assuming the cops had got the wrong guy.
Who is to say that 16% is too low or too high are all the experts involved in law enforcement, rape counseling, psychology and the criminal justice system. If you choose to believe they are ALL wrong about the difficulty of winning convictions and the real problem is lying women clogging up the system, that is YOUR CHOICE.
There is no point in discussion this issue further with you, you are a well spoken rape denier who has I must assume a deep distrust of women and sex in general to be so brutally afraid of women falsely accusing you or other males of rape.
> You are a rape deniar Michael
> that's all there is to it.
1) Ad hominem
2) Untrue
> You are one of those people that
> has all the sympathy in the world
> for the "real" rape victim, except
> that you rarely find any "real" rape
> victims, what you find are false
> accusers instead.
Please quote me where I've stated this.
As far as I can tell, you're just very
attuned to making strawman arguments.
> It is true for ALL CRIMES that a conviction
> can be obtained based on the testimony of a
> single eye witness. It is up to the jury to
> decide if the eye witness testimony in their
> view is compelling enough to meet the burden
> of proof of beyond a reasonable doubt.
Based solely? Mike Nifong was pretty careful
to make this point. He may have a lot of problems
in how he does his jobs but he has thrown people
behind bars.
> Again, you want to make things different for rape
> cases. You want the victim's word never to be
> enough in rape cases even though it can be
> enough in a robbery or a murder case.
I wouldn't take someone's word for something in
a robbery or a murder case. Would you take Susan
Smith's word in a rape case?
> The presumption of innocence is for the judge and
> jury. It does NOT mean the judge, jury or public
> are supposed to assume the defendant is innocent,
> eg. the police made a mistake, the witnesses are
> lying and the person was falsely accused.
As the media, group of 88, Mike Nifong, Brodhead,
Nancy Grace, John Edwards, Gottlieb and Linwood
Wilson are finding out, it's a generally good way
to go. I assume that you would rather be in that
group of people that wants to assume that they are
guilty.
> The presumption of innocence simply means that
> being arrested and charged is not counted against
> the defendant the charge has to be proven, and the
> presumption of innocence puts the burden of proof
> on the state not the defendant.
It defacto puts a burden on the defendent. If you
can't see that in this case, then you are blind.
> It would be utterly ridiculous for juries to be
> told to start out the case assuming the cops had
> got the wrong guy.
Strawman.
> Who is to say that 16% is too low or too high are
> all the experts involved in law enforcement, rape
> counseling, psychology and the criminal justice
> system. If you choose to believe they are ALL wrong
> about the difficulty of winning convictions and
> the real problem is lying women clogging up the
> system, that is YOUR CHOICE.
If you believe that such data exists, please post
it. I did go through a few books on psychology and
psychiatry last year but was looking for information
on something else. I do not recall seeing statistics
in the areas that you refer to but I wasn't looking
for them either.
> There is no point in discussion this issue further
> with you, you are a well spoken rape denier who has
> I must assume a deep distrust of women and sex in
> general to be so brutally afraid of women falsely
> accusing you or other males of rape.
1) Ad hominem
2) Untrue. I never even thought about rape and false
accusations before this case. But a few posters on
this blog opened my eyes and gave me a sense of
outrage that this goes on. I have never really dealt
with the CJ system before except on the behalf of a
family member and the process where one can be
railroaded is scary.
I don't believe you. You sound, write and cite the same evidence about false rape statistics as all the rest of the typical trolls who post the same exact material on every other blog and every other board in every other high profile rape case.
If you are not a professional rape denier, then I apologize. But I find that even the professional rape deniers do not really know or even believe they are professional rape deniers. They truly believe, despite all evidence to the contrary, that false rape accusations are a bigger problem than rape itself. They truly believe the pendulum has swung 'too far' in rape cases, despite all evidence and conviction rates to the contrary, and that men cannot get a fair trial in rape cases.
I've posted all the data I'm going to. You disregard the FBI because you say it isn't 'research', though I would think raw statistics are harder to politicize than 'research' you disregard the recent UK study of almost 3,000 rape cases because it was 'pussified' you choose to cite the Kanin study when even the author HIMSELF said it should not be used to generalize to other populations, you cite the 15 year old DOD research that has pretty much been discredited given the revelations about sexual assault in the military and the military academies and you ignore the recent surveys of the military academies, you discount multiple national the college surveys that consistently find the same rates of rape and attempted rape. You decry the citing of anecdotal evidence, individual cases and expert opinions and then you do it yourself. But "your" experts are better than mine. You cite quotations and material out of context and you read into statistics things that the authors never put there.
You believe what you want to believe and at heart, you are no better than Mike Nifong. Your belief is based on ideology and not on evidence.
Michael, I can't keep up with you. I cannot figure out exactly what it is you're trying to convey. You said you read my blog, but you didn't seem to have an opinion on my particular account of a horribly brutal rape in the early sixties.
I think what I needed to hear from you (after you read the blog) was an ounce of emphathy. I mean I've been thru a lot of hell as a result of what Jim Dickinson did to me.
Earlier, someone mentioned a lie detector test. I would jump at the opportunity! Soooo, if the Rapist, Jim Dickinson of Greensboro, NC, is reading this, let's get this little "drug-rape" situation out in the open?
re: Georgia Girl
> Michael, I can't keep up with you. I
> cannot figure out exactly what it is
> you're trying to convey. You said you
> read my blog, but you didn't seem to
> have an opinion on my particular
> account of a horribly brutal rape in
> the early sixties.
> I think what I needed to hear from
> you (after you read the blog) was
> an ounce of emphathy. I mean I've
> been thru a lot of hell as a result
> of what Jim Dickinson did to me.
On the internet, anyone can post anything
that they want to. If it includes things
like copyright material or material that
is defamatory, then an injured party can
sue to have it taken down and for
compensatory damages.
I develop opinions on matters or websites
based on data that I see over time. On
your particular page, there was insufficient
information for me to make a determination
of what happened in any detailed way with
any kind of second-sourcing.
Contrast the site to this blog where
there are links and quotes from the
media and where information is reasonably
available on the web. It is far easier to
make an educated judgement based on what's
published and a general knowledge of
human behaviour.
I am not particularly good at empathy. I
usually let my wife deal with those kinds
of things. I'm better at getting practical
things done and in a role as a problem
solver. I would just assume not pretend
to be helpful on a matter when it comes to
most emotional matters.
> Earlier, someone mentioned a lie detector
> test. I would jump at the opportunity!
> Soooo, if the Rapist, Jim Dickinson of
> Greensboro, NC, is reading this, let's get
> this little "drug-rape" situation out in
> the open?
It sounds like it is too late to file charges
as I'd guess that the statute of limitations
has run out. A civil suit is a possibility
if you can prove it in a court of law. But
you'd probably need witnesses and memory
can fade over time.
You could always anonymously send him a copy
of Sudden Impact.
> I don't believe you. You sound, write
> and cite the same evidence about false
> rape statistics as all the rest of the
> typical trolls who post the same exact
> material on every other blog and every
> other board in every other high profile
> rape case.
Well, you can believe whatever you want to
believe. If you go back in the false accuser
threads, though, you'll find that the stats
that I've looked at all come from those
threads on this blog.
I've been posting on boards since the late
1980s and my topics are mainly on 1) K-12
education, 2) technical analysis of the
financial markets and 3) computer architecture,
software engineering and vector programming.
Some of my posts are laced with information
from these areas.
But your paragraph is just another ad
hominem fallacy. It shouldn't matter who I
am with regards to argumentation.
> If you are not a professional rape denier,
> then I apologize. But I find that even the
> professional rape deniers do not really
> know or even believe they are professional
> rape deniers. They truly believe, despite
> all evidence to the contrary, that false
> rape accusations are a bigger problem than
> rape itself. They truly believe the
> pendulum has swung 'too far' in rape cases,
> despite all evidence and conviction rates
> to the contrary, and that men cannot get
> a fair trial in rape cases.
I do a lot of debating every once in a
while and get called all sorts of things
by people that don't know how to reason,
argue, debate or don't have a grasp of the
topic. And I ignore name calling, insults
and the like as they matter nothing to
the argument. From a mathematical point
of view and that's what arguments boil
down to if you've studied logic and
philosophy.
I've seen the costs of the criminal justice
and court system to individuals and am just
horrified that this industry can destroy so
much productivity, partially so that it can
sustain itself.
As far as fair trials go, I certainly
think that the Duke 3 could have been
convicted with lesser defense attorneys
and a Durham jury. When the CJ system
is gamed and you have a stupid populace
anything is possible. As I said before,
look at the Fells Acre Day Care case and
similar hoaxes that went on around the
country. Even after it was proven that
it was a hoax, you have prosecurots and
media personalities that fail to acknowledge
it. And you still have people labeled
sex offenders for the rest of their lives
and required to wear monitoring devices.
There were men and women that were
essentially accused by children that were
conditioned to say what they did by
psychologists and others.
> I've posted all the data I'm going to.
> You disregard the FBI because you say it
> isn't 'research',
And you're saying that it is? The research
would tell you the caveats behind the data.
But even if we took your FBI numbers, 1 out
of 12 people getting their lives messed up
is 1 out of 12 too many.
> though I would think raw statistics are
> harder to politicize than 'research'
Research can and should depend on statistics.
When you establish metrics that people's
livelihoods depend on, you naturally skew
the behaviour of people to optimize the
statistics. If you're a pharmaceutical
company and you give a doctor a trip to
the Bahamas for a medical convention
because he prescribes a certain quota of
a particular medication, what do you think
he's going to do even though there are
cheaper and, perhaps more effective
medication alternatives?
From what I can tell of in Durham,
there's a lot of stuff that goes on
related to maximizing pensions and job
security. I do see this kind of thing
in my own small town though I generally
don't pay a lot of attention to it. But
they need metrics to justify growing
employment.
Very similar to what I see with the
teachers unions and administrative
staff. Our state will have a pension
crisis within the next ten years as
will states around the country.
And we've already had a few tax revolts
over school and municipal spending.
In today's modern life, we optimize
to get as much done as possible and
small stuff like dealing with the CJ
system can take you or your family
out for a few days or a month or even
longer. That poor storekeeper that
was accused of rape and thrown in
jail didn't really even know the
woman that accused him and his life
was destroyed over something that
came completely out of the blue.
Her parents indicated that she had
mental problems but they should
have explained that to the police
before they tossed the guy in jail.
Aren't you absolutely horrified that
this could happen to someone? Do you
have brothers or sons or fathers that
you worry about that could be falsely
accused? That's part of the outrage
over the Duke Lacrosse case. One poster
in the Durham newspapers talked about
a black man that was falsely accused,
convicted and in jail since the late
80s or early 90s asking why there
aren't a bunch of blogs calling for
justice and compensation for him to
the tune of what the Duke three should
be getting. I absolutely agree with
her in that he should be compensated
from the highest mountain for the
years that he spent in jail. And not
just some token amount that's set by
some statute.
> you disregard the recent UK study of
> almost 3,000 rape cases because it was
> 'pussified' you choose to cite the
> Kanin study when even the author HIMSELF
> said it should not be used to generalize
> to other populations,
One can't help but generalize from his
study. Sure, there will be variations
from place to place but it makes for
a starting place for discussion.
> you cite the 15
> year old DOD research that has pretty
> much been discredited given the
> revelations about sexual assault in
> the military and the military academies
> and you ignore the recent surveys of the
> military academies, you discount multiple
> national the college surveys that
> consistently find the same rates of rape
> and attempted rape.
I have no idea as to what you're talking
about. I do not recall any such data
posted here.
> You decry the citing of anecdotal evidence,
> individual cases and expert opinions and
> then you do it yourself.
I use anecdotal evidence to demonstrate a
"there exists" which is a predicate logic
term. You use it to generalize to all cses.
The predicate logic term for that is "forall"
and it is generally something that should be
avoided as it is difficult to prove.
> But "your" experts are better
> than mine. You cite quotations and material
> out of context and you read into statistics
> things that the authors never put there.
I'd suggest that you cite my quotes and what
is out of context.
> You believe what you want to believe
> and at heart, you are no better than
> Mike Nifong. Your belief is based on
> ideology and not on evidence.
Nifong was willing to arrest, indict and
convict regardless of the evidence. And he
didn't care about recompense for the accused.
Sounds a lot more like you.
Mike Nifong was never about ideology. He
knew what he was doing. But didn't care.
And that appears to apply to you as well.
False rape charges.
A look at the statistics
The 41% number came from:
Purdue University sociologist Eugene J. Kanin
Kanin also got the police records of two unnamed large state universities and found that in three years, 50 percent of the 64 rapes reported to campus police were determined to be false.
Michael, you said:
"...On
your particular page, there was insufficient
information for me to make a determination
of what happened..."
I totally agree that my page lacks sufficient information, and it frustrates me to know that the Rapist will never have to be accountable for his actions.
True, the statues of limitations in the state of georgia have run out. Even so, consider the time factor -- and no DNA. What prosecutor would touch it?
There are eye witnesses, and several who have second-hand information, but can that veil of secrecy be broken?
A civil case (as you mentioned) would present the same problems, right?
Georgia,
The burden of proof is lower in civil cases, it is the preponderance of evidence or clear and convincing evidence depending on your state, generally it means you have to prove it was more likely than not.
There is also anecdotal evidence that especially in rape cases civil juries are more willing to believe women because they don't worry about 'sending the nice man to jail' on the 'woman's word alone'...so the burden of proof ande the removal of possible criminal sanctions make people more willing to stick to the law rather than want 'extra' proof as so often happens with rape cases.
There might be a civil statute of limitations as well though, the law treated many things including rape much differently in the 1960's.
I think it is truly HYSTERICAL that I rely on a 2 year old study of almost 3000 rape cases from all over England that was sponsored and vetted by the government which found 3-4% of rape complaints were LIES. This study also found that ONE THIRD of rape cases listed as unfounded by police should not have been....somewhat calling into question the FBI's 8% number as possibly too high, not too low.
You rely on a 20 year old study in a single town of 109 cases to say that 41% of rape cases are lies, yet I am the one that does't stick to the evidence. That is laughable.
I've also told you OVER AND OVER that in science, if your study results cannot be replicated, as they have never been, then your results cannot be generalized and are not particularly useful. If the majority of other similar studies do not find the same results, then chances are there was something amiss in the anomalous finding. The Purdue study falls into that category since its results are not born out by other studies, other experience or anything else other attitudes and beliefs of the uninformed.
It's also a convenient fact you overlook that rape shield laws only came into being in the 1970s and the 1980's as well in the 1980s the statutes removed actual physical force as a prerequesite for proving a rape conviction, now in most states not consenting to sex is all that is required, yet you don't factor any of this into your review of cases and statistics from that time frame.
It is generally acknowledged that until the last decade or so rape victims were routintely disbelieved and harassed by police, as they still are in some cases. That is why rape shield laws came into being and why the law on force was changed, because society realized that juries making decisions on a rape case because a woman used birth control or had previous sexual partners wasn't fair and further realized that when the law said that even if a man admitted the woman said no repeatedly it was not legally rape if no force was proven to be used was obscene.
I asked for the full context of the quote by the New York prosecutor on 50% of rapes in NYC that were reported never having happened.
To Anonymous 10:48 a.m:
Thanks for your comment!
I'm 95% certain that the evidence, if presented, would be very clear and convincing. Hundreds of details are fixed firmly in my mind (and these memories never waiver). I need no script.
It is not based on "my word alone". Other evidence exists, plus there are 2 other victims.
I'm in the middle of writing a book to get down on paper should I croak.
Meanwhile, I have no hesitation in naming the Rapist (Jim Dickinson). You see, although nobody in the brotherhood of Theta Chi during 1962 would break the almighty code of silence; neither would they come to his defense in a defamation of character suit.
I can't find any information about the "civil statutes of limitations for RAPE in the State of Georgia".
But it was not only Rape. In TWO separate incidents, he committed conspiracy, fraud, kidnapping, false imprisonment, rape sodomy ... plus voyeurism (filmed).
I contacted him by phone and registered mail in July of 2005. I'm sure he was stunned at the accuracy of my details. Of course, he denied any wrong doing.
Georgia,
I've been reading about the properties of cannabanoids and their function in helping us to forget painful memories.
'Natural' cannabis manages memory
Unfortunately the current natural form is illegal.
The big three that can result in psychosis are schizophrenia, depression and bipolar. Two other less common categories are post partum depression and post traumatic stress.
In many cases, the problem is a fear. You darkest fear coming out as intrusive thoughts, hallucinations or delusions. And getting bombarded with these thought can drive one insane.
Current antipsychotics disrupt neurotransmitter function and this seems to reduce psychosis or I've heard that it can eliminate it. But antipsychotics have side effects that can be rather unpleasant and they are generally expensive.
Other ways to keep old memories away are staying busy and participating in sports. Kids, work, hobbies, making money, etc. keep me very busy. This morning I
was out teaching tennis and I will be teaching vector calculus and logic this afternoon.
Raising kids is incredibly time
consuming as is generating the
income to pay for their future
expenses and retirement. I used
to publish an newsletter for
traders and enjoyed doing it but
at some point, I couldn't justify
the time that I spent doing it
WRT family needs.
Rigorous sports seems to provide
a benefit to the body chemically.
It could be a runner's high or
the satisfaction in beating
distance or performance goals.
Tennis is a more anaerobic sport
but you can get a satisfying
workout through it and the good
feelings that striking a ball well
sends through your neurosystem.
I cannot imagine carrying around
strong and negative emotions and
feelings over the long haul as it
gets in the way of life and responsibilities. If we're old
enough, we all have our share of
baggage and have to find our own
ways to shed the baggage.
We're studing the history of philosophy at home with the kids and it's been an eye-opener to them about how people thought about things through history. And how philosophers thought about thinking in the past. I try to talk to them
about thinking about their thinking and optimizing their life and going through life aware of risks and
teaching about points of view.
As you might imagine, this is a hard thing to do as kids are generally concerned with the present and tangentially concerned about the future.
Michael, you cannot disseminate credible opinions and chew gristle at the same time.... it's impossible!
Now go hit some balls (on the court, that is).
> I think it is truly HYSTERICAL that
> I rely on a 2 year old study of
> almost 3000 rape cases from all
> over England that was sponsored and
> vetted by the government which found
> 3-4% of rape complaints were LIES.
> This study also found that ONE THIRD
> of rape cases listed as unfounded by
> police should not have been....
> somewhat calling into question the
> FBI's 8% number as possibly too high,
> not too low.
I think that others have addressed your
UK study in a more current thread so I
will leave discussion of that for them.
But for arguments sake, let's assume
3.5%. What would you like to do for that
3.5% that get falsely accused? It is
very hard to take you seriously when
you are hysterical and do not believe
in the scales of justice as balanced.
> You rely on a 20 year old study in a
> single town of 109 cases to say that
> 41% of rape cases are lies, yet I am
> the one that does't stick to
> the evidence. That is laughable.
Even if I assume your numbers for arguments
sake, you are still recalcitrant on the
matter of justice being blind, fairness
for the accused and compensation for those
falsely accused and prosecution of the
false accuser. Question: should Crystal
Gail Magnum be prosecuted for her false
accusations?
> I've also told you OVER AND OVER that in
> science, if your study results cannot be
> replicated, as they have never been, then
> your results cannot be generalized and
> are not particularly useful. If the
> majority of other similar studies do not
> find the same results, then chances are
> there was something amiss in the anomalous
> finding. The Purdue study falls into that
> category since its results are not born
> out by other studies, other experience
> or anything else other attitudes and
> beliefs of the uninformed.
As has been mentioned in the other posts,
studies aren't research.
> It's also a convenient fact you overlook
> that rape shield laws only came into being
> in the 1970s and the 1980's as well in the
> 1980s the statutes removed actual physical
> force as a prerequesite for proving a rape
> conviction, now in most states not
> consenting to sex is all that is required,
> yet you don't factor any of this into your
> review of cases and statistics from that
> time frame.
I really don't anything about the history
of the rape shield laws. Just their current
effect. You seem to impute motives as if
paranoid.
> It is generally acknowledged that
> until the last decade or so rape
> victims were routintely disbelieved
> and harassed by police, as they
> still are in some cases. That is
> why rape shield laws came into being
> and why the law on force was changed,
> because society realized that juries
> making decisions on a rape case
> because a woman used birth control or
> had previous sexual partners wasn't
> fair and further realized that when
> the law said that even if a man
> admitted the woman said no repeatedly
> it was not legally rape if no force
> was proven to be used was obscene.
argumentum ad populum
The problem with tilting the scales of
justice is that you encourage gaming
the system. Was rape shield helpful to
CGM?
> I asked for the full context of the
> quote by the New York prosecutor
> on 50% of rapes in NYC that were
> reported never having happened.
I am not a library. I'd suggest a trip
to a good university library for you to
find the material that you are looking
for. Alternatively, you could ask on the
other thread where there is wider
discussion.
[Now go hit some balls (on the court, that is).]
Do you have an NTRP?
Well, the Bears couldn't pull it off.
Did anyone notice that Michael was spouting statistics and inventing acronyms during the middle of the game? Most "men" across America were watching the Super Bowl at that time. Even I was watching the game, and I'm nothing but a woman.
Now .... go back and play with your balls (tennis balls of course).
It has taken me a while to realize you are not worth of anyone's attention.
"worthy", that is
> Did anyone notice that Michael was
> spouting statistics and inventing
> acronyms during the middle of the
> game? Most "men" across America
> were watching the Super Bowl at
> that time. Even I was watching the
> game, and I'm nothing but a woman.
KC Johnson said...
As a Patriots fan, I am boycotting this year's Super Bowl.
I guess it was just KC and me.
> It has taken me a while to
> realize you are not worth of
> anyone's attention.
That's fine with me. Have a nice life.
Georgia,
If you seriously want to pursue a civil case against your assailant you could either contact a private lawyer or talk anonymously to a rape crisis counselor, who could probably give you some baseline advice on the legal aspects of how a civil case would work, what the rules of evidence are in your state and how the length of time would impact your chances of success.
I wish you luck.
To Anonymous 10:41 a.m.
I made some contacts two years ago (no reply), but the length of my email was so long, it may have been automaticlly deleted by the recipient before it was even read.
Will definitely give it another shot. Thanks for commenting! I wish I had your email ... so I could keep you posted.
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