Wednesday, April 11, 2007

Haagen Quote

An astute comment from Duke law professor Paul Haagen on the reported dismissal of all charges: "I think the critical thing could be the wording. It could simply say the state can no longer prove its case, which would be a very harmful outcome for the community." A better outcome, he suggested, would be a statement that "could provide a full accounting of why the case should never have been brought."

69 comments:

Anonymous said...

JLS says...,

I agree. The AG would be chickening out and doing NC a disservice if they merely drop the charges without further comment or only say they do not believe the case is sustainable.

James said...

MSNBC is reporting that an announcement will be made by at 230EST. Finally.

Anonymous said...

The Players' Attorneys have also
scheduled a newsconference for
4pm EST.

Mac

GS said...

The SPs were looking at Seligmann alibi, unlike Nifong. He at least should get a statement of factual innocence from the SPs.

Anonymous said...

Better cancel your classes today, KC. It's going to be a big blog day.

Gary Packwood said...

Either way ... the significance of this case will always be seen as ...

Until Proven Innocent

GP

huesofblue said...

I’m cautiously optimistic. The AG could have confidently said “the evidence does not support the charges” weeks ago. The exhaustive investigation and the amount of time the AG has spent preparing this announcement make me think we’ll get a more complete accounting. It’s also the right thing to do.

The best reason not to give a complete account would be to avoid exposing the city and county to additional liability. But that’s not really a strong argument. The state of NC itself has very limited exposure and a complete account would go a long way toward mitigating the damage down to the reputations of the accused players.

Anonymous said...

Regardless of the results of the police investigation (I still love to quote the hoaxters).....these guys and their families are not going to just sit back and do nothing after these charges are dropped.

I would assume (and hope) that lawsuits will be filed against Durham and Ms. Mangum rather quickly. While there are some people who will always say the moon is made of cheese, the players are going to get as much information out there to show the enablers that their "something happened" theories are crap.

Anonymous said...

Roy Cooper should be compelled to give a detailed report which supports this obvious and long-overdue conclusion.

Citizens should demand it.

Debrah

Teach1975 said...

Haagen also described the case against the laxers in the Baltimore Sun as "Something between a tragedy and a farce." Coleman and Haagen- two Duke Law profs who get it. Notice they are concerned with the facts of the case- what an interesting idea.

GS said...

AP saids all charges to be dropped.

GPrestonian said...

So, KC, is Haagen now rehabilitated from his 'helmet sports' comment?

Anonymous said...

The model should be the grand jury's report in the Tawana Brawley "case" -- just as the Tawana hoax was the model for the Nifong/Mangum hoax.

In the Brawley case, justice and public interest were well served by the release of a complete investigative report, which demonstrated, detail by detail, why there was no basis to prosecute and why it was clear that all of the allegations were baseless and false. We deserve no less in this case.

Anonymous said...

I am so very happy for Reade, Collin, and David.

About a year ago David stood before the media and told everyone that they had been fed "fantastic lies".

All three must have a terrific weight off them this morning......although pure justice has yet to be realized.

Debrah

Anonymous said...

Watch for the phrase "widely expected" in the NYT and other MSM coverage of the exoneration announcement.

This phrase is a key tool that the press uses when it has been totally wrong on a story, and their error becomes so clear that they need to finally synchronize their reporting with the facts. The phrase "widely expected" is intended to convey an implication that "Hey, we always knew the real story. You, the reader, were mistaken in thinking that the story was otherwise."

Anonymous said...

10:04

You're right: that's what
"widely expected" means.
And we should also expect
them to bring in a cast of
characters - (like Jesse) -
who'll call the case a "tragic
misunderstanding."

That means that he "tragically
misunderstood" that the horse
he attached his cart to was
stumbling toward the edge
of the cliff.

Mac

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Anonymous said...

Uh-oh.

Flamer Wendy Murphy, having made a fool of herself by consistently libeling the lacrosse players, is now going after Imus.

What a flaming freak!

Debrah

Anonymous said...

I want to see--for humorous edge--what type of inane and embarrassing editorial the sad Herald-Sun will come up with now.

ROTFLM-T's-O !!!

Debrah

Anonymous said...

Debrah,

Where is Murphy's voice being
trumpeted? And moreover,
why is anyone allowing her
a place at the podium?

Hopefully, her place at the
podium will occur when a judge
tells her to shut up and answer
the plaintiffs' questions about
why she smeared their reputations
and insisted upon their guilt!

Mac

Chicago said...

I am overwhelmed with joy for Reade, Dave, and Collin and their family's.

Thisis just the beginning though. Now that these charges will be dropped, it is time for Nifong, Duke, durham County and the Durham PD to face justice and pay up!

Anonymous said...

Mac--

I always keep MSNBC on in the background, and she has been talking with Chris Jansing.

Murphy and Naomi Wolf--Al Gore's former color coordinator--were going at each other.

I'm sure they will replay the crap over and over today.

LIS!

Debrah

Anonymous said...

I really like the idea of Nifong going into his disbarment proceedings in this humiliating legal posture -- that the case he lied for, cheated for, and corrupted a scientist for, and that ultimately Nifong will lose his career for....was never a case at all in the first place, by official State decree.

Anonymous said...

The only real question left: Will NiFong's deposition be posted to YouTube?

jamil hussein said...

this makes me sick:
Grystal Magnum statement (from fox news):


Members of the accuser's family told FOX News that the woman is "almost relieved" that the case appears to almost be over. Family members had earlier told FOX News that she has wanted the case to be over for some time, especially since she expected charges to be lessened — if not dropped completely — since Nifong removed himself from the case.

The family told FOX News that they're poor and black, whereas the players and their families are "rich and white," and that the attorney general's office has looked upon the players as "golden boys."



Not so fast GGM. You will be indicted.

Gayle Miller said...

The cost to the families for legal representation alone ran in the neighborhood of $2.8 million over the past year! Redress is definitely needed for that out-of-pocket pain and suffering, not to mention the emotional toll taken on all the families and the entire Duke lacrosse team. In addition, the fired Duke lacrosse coach and the other players who had what promised to be a championship season going probably have some causes of action. Had the championship season been permitted to happen, what kinds of financial benefits would the team have reaped in future endorsement deals, employment, etc?

This is far from over but, thank God, the burden on the families will be somewhat lifted and justified retribution for all the sleazy may begin. Brodhead should be fired right off the bat, along with the entire Group of 88! Nifong should be disbarred in perpetuity as well.

Gayle Miller said...

"The family told FOX News that they're poor and black, whereas the players and their families are "rich and white," and that the attorney general's office has looked upon the players as "golden boys."

So justice is only deserved by those who have no money? What unadulterated nonsense!

Crystal Gail Magnum should be indicted on charges of perjury and making false accusations against innocent young men. And her 3 children should be taken away from her and raised by someone with ethics, morality and intelligence!

rod allison, detroit said...

Outstanding point on the "as was widely expected" ruse.

As for the AG, I see no political advantage to a "can no longer prove" statement.

Politically and ethically its best to give compelling reasons why the case should be dropped, and to place the blame on Nifong, where it belongs.

Showing how crooked Nifong was will help divert any remaining hate-based anger over the charges being dropped to Nifong. The more outrageous Nifong conduct that is exposed, the better for the AG.

I would think that the Minister of Justice is peeing in his pants right about now.

Anonymous said...

Please somebody get cousin Jakke back on the air!!!

I need some more comic relief.

Anonymous said...

Debra,

Thanks! Surprising
that anyone would have her
on, for any reason.
I'm sure Greta had something
to do with Murphy's prolongued
(forever would not be too long)
absence from FNC.
I didn't know that MSNBC
was so desperate as to take
FNC news rejects!

Mac

Anonymous said...

OK folks, sounds like the real fun is about to begin. The Hoax victims' families will soon begin the reputation and resource recovery project through civil litigation. The depos and discovery requests alone will be worth it.

Anonymous said...

JLS says....,

re: anon 11:13

You are correct. This is a shift of this case to a new phase. It certainly will not be over nor will it be less interesting. I am particularly looking forward to Professor Johnson blogging from the Friday hearing.

Anonymous said...

The truly poetic outcome would be for the AG to simultaneously announce the dropping of the charges against the 3 LAX players... and then raise new charges of verbal rape by proxy against Don Imus.

Then everyone would be happy. The players are exonerated... Jesse, Al and the other raise pimps could say justice is done, and Crystal would say, "I told you something happened!"

Anonymous said...

Carolyn says:

This is my biggest fear. That the Attorney General will NOT be honest - he will lie by parsing the truth, making faces, inferring, implying, raising an eyebrow - but NOT admit this has been nothing but the lie of a filthy black prostitute used by other liars for their own benefit.

Speaking of lies - don't insult me by suggesting Crystal and her scum family playing the race card is not more of the same. The only thing that stinks worse than their filthy lies is Crystal's filthy underwear.

Chicago said...

While the charges will likely be dropped today, this thing is far from over. Nifong's trial as well as the civil suits will likely be ongoing for some time. However, being that today is a milestone, I want to compliment KC Johnson, JohninCarolina, FriendsofDuke, Liestoppers, Beth Brewer, the amazing lawyers in this case who worked diligently and ethically such as Brad Bannon, Joe Chesire, Wade Smith, the late Kirk Osborn.

Also thanks to Dr. James Coleman and everyone who stood up for justice. I feel like this is a family here now.

I also want to compliment the Evans, Finnerty and Seligmann family's for staying so poised amongst a ridiculous amount of uncalled for stress and strain as well as the Duke lacrosse players, their family's and the coaches, including the wonderful Kirsten Kimel.

If I missed anyone, I am sorry, you all stood up for what is right and showed tremendous character. Justice has prevailed and will hopefully continue to do so in the form of civil suits against the true criminals in this case.

Anonymous said...

gprestonian, would you refresh my memory on Haagen's "helmet sports" comment? What exactly it was and when and where it was made. Thanks.

JUSTEECE said...

Why are we not talking about the girl who was raped? All of you are doing a victory dance, how nice. This young lady will never be the same. I am horrifeied to see that you all condone rape - so long as it is done by rich white men.

jamil hussein said...

So basically Crystal's family is openly saying that the rape did indeed happen, but because the rapists are "white and rich" they got away with it. No doubt this is the storyline of Durham black community (and Durham jury). No amount of evidence or good defense team could have saved the players from these animals, had the case progressed to jury phase.

I think blogs were an important part of the victory for the truth. I would rate this one of the biggest wins for bloggers (after exposing Dan Rather's fake memos in 15 seconds). No wonder NYT hates blogs. Dem propaganda is much more difficult in the blog era.

Anonymous said...

I watch with much interest to see what Brodhead says, if anything. He was so quick to condemn. If he makes any comment, it will likely be of the "let's move on", "waster under the bridge", "time to heal" type. Yes, he'd love it for that to be true.

Anonymous said...

"Ex-Duke Players Await an Announcement

By DUFF WILSON
Published: April 11, 2007
RALEIGH, N.C. April 11 — The North Carolina attorney general is widely expected to announce this afternoon that he is dropping all of the remaining charges against three former Duke students accused of sexually assaulting a stripper more than a year ago..."

And there you have it. The NYT has posted their "widely expected" article. Good call by Anonymous at 10:04.

Anonymous said...

The victims statement is a clear indication of what we are facing in this country when it comes to race.

If she felt the boys did anything to her, she should have said that she felt like she was assaulted etc and that they were simply getting away with it.

Instead she brings economics and race into it as an excuse for her lies. That in itself deserves more outcry from the black community over anything Imus said.

The bottom line is white people with money must pay for their mistakes or be subjected to false accusations which cost them money while poor blacks are never held accountable for what they do yet still receive a gvt check. If you are rich and black, you get to use your race to keep from being held responsible for what you do.

This is just the latest example of why blacks will never be taken seriously as a whole by anyone and until they have the leadership that can bring them back into society, their economic and social fortunes will continue to suffer.

The sad thing is the black community just does not get it.

Anonymous said...

I am just absolutely certain that both the revrum Jackson and the revrum Sharpton will hastily arrange news conferences in order to apologize to the lacrosse players, chastise the nappy headed ho, and beg for forgiveness ala the cadaver in a cowboy hat, Imus. In fact, I'm holding my breath...

Anonymous said...

Why are we not talking about the girl who was raped?

Because there was no girl who was raped! All the wishful thinking in the world can't change this simple FACT.

Milo said...

JUSTEECE said...

Why are we not talking about the girl who was raped?

Because no rape was committed, Justeece. There was a sad, pathetic, and emotionally defective young woman who lied about being raped (again) to gain attention. There were any number of politically motivated jerks who sought to use the young girl's lies, and those of the other stripper, to advance their personal agendas. And there was a crooked prosecutor who twisted the facts of the case to get himself reelected. But no rape. Watch the press conference, later today, and the Attorney General will tell you so.

Anonymous said...

11:43

I'm fairly certain that you
are white, you know what we
ALL know - (that CGM was not
raped) - and I'm also fairly
certain that your main intent
is to inflame passions and
piss people off.

(Which branch of the KKK
did you say you represent?)

Mac

Anonymous said...

Another prediction about how the MSM will cover the AG's announcement:

Many news outlets will treat as stunning revelations the AG's recitation of some of the DPD's and DA's well-known procedural improprieties in conducting the investigation. By tomorrow morning, the talking heads will all be discussing how shocked, shocked they were to learn today that virtually all the key interviews with witnesses and Mangum were conducted one-on-one, without recording or a third party witness. Likewise, the pundits will treat as new information the AG's likely statement that the lineup was both inadmissible and logically flawed.

Anonymous said...

I just hope that the boys and their families can get justice. A significant portion of their lives were taken from them, and their prospects for significant future employment are diminished, and God only knows what this has done to their families finances.

I am torn as to what should be done with the false accuser. I would hate to see anything done that would disuade any 'real' victim of sexual assualt or rape from coming forward. I think she has done alot of damage.

I think that the university administrators, and the faculty, that hung these boys out to dry are evildoers, but I am not optimistic that the boys and their families will get just compensation.

Joe K

Insufficiently Sensitive said...

And I'm fairly sure that Mac is from the New York Times and is waving his provocation rag around in hopes of some savage retorts for the Times to slice and dice and print as examples of our refined discussions.

rod allison, detroit said...

Good call indeed, anonymous 10:04.

The brief Duff Wilson article was subdued, and reminiscent of the old NYT that pretty much gave the sterile facts, but there was one thing I noticed.

He mentioned twice that the accuser changed her story, referring to her December version as if it was the only changed version, and he gave it particular significance, as if this change alone blew the case.

Looks like this is his official excuse for missing the mark so badly in August; there was a major development after the now infamous August front page piece.

The case was a farce long before Precious gave yet another version in December, and Wilson was too stupid/biased/pressured to know it and report it in August.

Anonymous said...

When the Democrat AG says the case was really flawed right from jumpstreet, the media will say, in their best Gomer Pyle voice, "Gah-ah-LEE. Shazam!" Bloggers figured this to be a railroad job about thirty seconds after Knife-ong started flapping his gums well over a year ago! The Pajamahadeen wins again!

AMac said...

...please don't feed the trolls...

Anonymous said...

THE CASE IS FINALLY BEGINNING

Now it's time to address:

1. the dismantling of Angry Studies
2. the end of affirmative action
3. felony raps for lying whores
4. firing stupid racist "professors"
5. suing the shit out of Durham, Duke, Crystal Gail Mangum--and Mike (the bitch) Nifong
6. firing Richard Brodhead, the his bitchees

Polanski

Anonymous said...

I have to agree--"Justeece" is probably a "provocateur" and either KKK or White Power connected. We will be hearing much talk in the black community about the "white conspiracy" and how the rich and powerful white people always take advantage of the poor black people, but I think "Justeece" is a lurking KKK....

Anonymous said...

Insufficiently sensitive:

I'm not for what 11:43 said:
you are confusing me with him
(or her.) Perhaps you need to
re-read my comments?
11:43 appears to be a
provocateur, perhaps,
as you suggested,
from the New York Times,
maybe not even someone from
the AA community itself -
(unless it was one of the 88s,
which would explain the misspellings.)


Re-read the threads,
and please don't confuse
me with the author of that
vile crap: you and I are
making the same point.

Thank you.

Mac

jamil hussein said...

I have to agree--"Justeece" is probably a "provocateur" and either KKK or White Power

It is quite clear she or he is black activist of some sort, working for New York al-Times, Black Panthers, Gang88, Jesse Jackson or some other professional racist organisation.

This is the crap gang88 has been touting since the beginning.

jamil hussein said...

Let's see.

1. the dismantling of Angry Studies

Angry Studies has just been elevated to departmental status.
I would also expect dept of homosexual studies to be established in 2007.

2. the end of affirmative action

Democratic congress is proposing tougher AA measures in the name of "equality" and "diversity".

3. felony raps for lying whores

New congress is pushing various equality and gender bills that would make it easier
to report baseless rape reports and get away with it. "Her word against his" is enough evidence.

4. firing stupid racist "professors"

Nobody has been fired (except white coach, and couple of white students). it is more likely that Elvis is alive than to believe any of the racist Gang88 members will be fired.


5. suing the shit out of Durham, Duke, Crystal Gail Mangum--and Mike (the bitch) Nifong

This is beyond the control of the Democratic party, so this will happen. However, if Durham jury is involved, the result is surely in favour of gang88.

6. firing Richard Brodhead, the his bitchees

Maybe in some alternative universe..Brodhead will probably get a job as a Princeton president or secretary of education (in 2009).

Dream on. The war has been lost, even if this battle is won. Angry Studies gets stronger every day, not weaker.

Anonymous said...

Jamil,

If Angry Studies is getting stronger every day, then it would be logical to conclude that its principal beneficiaries are getting stronger.

HEH, DUKIES:

ANYONE HAVE A LOW-IQ CAM? WE CAN DOCUMENT WAHNEEMA'S MOVEMENTS, MARVELING AT HOW MUCH STRONGER SHE IS GETTING!

Jamil, by "stronger" are you alluding to BO or farts?

Polanski

Anonymous said...

Defense Attorney Wade Smith, in a video clip on WRAL.com, says that the AG's investigatoon has looked "under very rock...my goodness, they looked at things that we didnt even think to look at."

Sounds encouraging -- I hope it's all made public in a report.

Anonymous said...

Minorities are given a leg up in admissions to the most prestigious schools and find themselves competing against students who actually deserve to be there.

The resultant is that these afirmative action students tend to find themselves clustered in areas where intellectual rigor is less demanding. I.e. AAS.

That said, Im not sure I would agree with dismantling Black studies altogether. I'm sure there is a place for the discipline alongside many of the other humanities.

My own recommendations lie more towards hiring as professors only the brightest for this narrow field. Consider this, how many paying jobs are there for concert pianists? Very few, and only the absolute best are lucky enough to have such a position. I believe AAS should be similarly demanding as the field really is so narrow and is undeserving of the current over funding.

Hiring a better faculty for AAS has merit. The intent would be to produce an actual worthwhile educational experience vice what we see today which is really nothing more than the scholatic equivalent of a dumping ground for under prepared students.

Does MIT really need an AAS program to produce well trained engineers? No, indeed that particular college is nothing more than a tax on the rest of the institution. Many Universities are in a similar circumstance.


The current trend in AAS is a faculty that definately doesnt have the intellectual capacity to produce a worthwhile program. They seem to be more the "Couldnt get a job doing anything else" sort.


The jibberish of the writings published by the AAS faculty just astounds me. It is painful to read and serves no purpose.

I'll say it again, the current state of AAS today is nothing more than a tax levied against the university system and the AAS professors little more than the beneficiaries of institutional welfare.

Bakerman said...

I posted the following several weeks ago:

"This brings us back to the concept of the state serving the "greater good" - in this case, the NC Bar making a deal with Nifong so he won't spill -their- guts; get out of jail free."

Continuing; "This scenario does not bode well for the accused, not that the false charges will stand, but that they'll be dismissed under a calculated cloud of suspicion (i.e., guilt) - under the DA doctrine of, "Well, 'something' happened."

GPrestonian said...

11:38am Anon

gprestonian, would you refresh my memory on Haagen's "helmet sports" comment? What exactly it was and when and where it was made. Thanks.

Sure 11:38, glad to. Haagen's comment concluded the infamous Mar 25 N&O hit piece that ignited this bonfire of the vanities:

Dancer gives details of ordeal

(found via a Technorati search on KC's blog - GREAT way to find out who the players are and what they said [and what KC thought about it] :)

GPrestonian said...

KC's take on the Haagen 'helmet sports' comment:

March 25

The day opened with the N&O’s front-page story on the incident, featuring an interview with the “victim.” The article has been widely, and properly, discredited, but at the time it had enormous impact.

From the Duke angle, the article contained a stunning item. The piece concluded with remarks from Paul Haagen, chairman of Duke’s Academic Council, who said that violence against women was more prevalent among males who play “helmet” sports, such as football, hockey, and lacrosse. “These are sports of violence,” he said. “This is clearly a concern.”

As John in Carolina has pointed out, Haagen’s words, whether he intended them to do so or not, explained “to readers why the Duke students might have committed the violent acts of which they are accused in the story.”

Insufficiently Sensitive said...

Mac - you nailed it, I'm wrong, and I apologise.

Note to self: think first, then blather.

Anonymous said...

Anyone know if there will be A LYING WHORE CAM at Precios panties house?

Polanski

Sean said...

Why on earth would someone listen to a Duke law professor prattling on what's good for the community? That's like listening to phlegm give a lecture on sanitation.

theman said...

Way to go justeece, we are all forgetting the rape victim.

Anonymous said...

Insuficiently Sensitive,

Thanks for the correction.
I'm not absolutely positive
what race "Justeece" is -
but it doesn't matter:
their comments were designed
to upset people who've had
their eye on this injustice
for such a long time.

Here's how a lefty from the
NYTimes operates:
Argue points 1-10, point-by-
point, dissembling the
lefty's arguments - (such as
those by the thoroughly
rancid Claire Potter.) After
making the 10th point,
the lefty says:

"Yeah, but what about...
(point # 1?)" As if it
hadn't been dismissed.

This is what they attempt
every time they send a dupe
to make a comment like that,
if only because it's so
infuriating. My advice is to
avoid rising to the bait,
and to cooly dispatch them
if it is possible.

Their goal, since they can't
win, is to make us:
1) angry with each other
2) jump to issues that aren't
related to the issue at hand.

I hope people can see when they're
being baited, and respond
accordingly.

Mac

Anonymous said...

FREE AT LAST!

Anonymous said...

YESSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Observer