Saturday, September 22, 2007

From the Quotes File

DIW readers had quite a few additional suggestions for quotes that could have made the Top 32 Countdown of most outrageous lacrosse case statements.

First, three items for which I should have found room:

1.) “‘It’s the same old story. Duke up, Central down.’ Hall said he wanted to see the Duke students prosecuted ‘whether it happened or not. It would be justice for things that happened in the past.’”

--NCCU student government leader Chan Hall, to Newsweek reporter Susannah Meadows, April 2006.

2.) “Yeah, I’d love to see it [the document].”

--Linwood Wilson, interrupting defense attorney Joe Cheshire’s press conference, June 22, 2006, to deny Cheshire’s claim that a document in the just-handed over discovery material had Crystal Mangum telling inconsistent stories and suggesting she was raped by other than three men.

The next day, Cheshire faxed Wilson a police report from Officer Gwen Sutton, who recorded Mangum’s inconsistent assertions (including a claim that there were five, not three, rapists). Cheshire noted, “Since you are the District Attorney’s Investigator, the press could have assumed—falsely, as it turns out—that you had actually read your file. I can only assume your motivation in questioning my assertion was simply ignorance. A simple reading of your file might solve that problem in the future.”

3.) “I always thought that [Mike Nifong] was a very ethical person.”

--Linwood Wilson, in State Bar deposition, April 2007. This is the same Linwood Wilson who gave up his PI’s license after myriad ethics complaints against him.

---------

Other memorable quotes, in no particular order of ranking:

4.) “This goes to show that justice can’t be bought by a bunch of rich white boys from New York.”

--Former Durham Democratic Party official Harris Johnson, celebrating Mike Nifong’s victory, Election Night 2006. As with Chan Hall’s statement, no one from the city’s political, academic, or media leadership rebuked Johnson for his comment.

5.) “Quite a number of people have assured me that the ad said the students were guilty, but if you go back and look, that’s not what the ad says.”

--Richard Brodhead, on the Group of 88’s statement, January 2007.

No, the ad (described by its author, Wahneema Lubiano, as about the “lacrosse incident”), just unequivocally stated that something happened to Mangum; and thanked people who had declared the players guilty.

6.) “I don’t know why counsel for the defense would think there was anything of evidentiary value on that cell phone.”

--Mike Nifong, in court, May 2006. The ex-DA, obviously, had no interest in this information.

7.) “There was evidence of DNA of Seligmann [sic] who lived in that house [sic].”

--”Commentator” Georgia Goslee, MSNBC, 7 August 2006. Of course, there were never any DNA matches to Reade Seligmann, and he did not live at 610 N. Buchanan.

8.) “I’m very comfortable with our coverage. From the beginning, we’ve felt this story had two main elements: one was the allegation of rape; the other was the general behavior of a high-level sports team at a prestigious university.”

--New York Times sports editor Tom Jolly, April 23, 2006. Jolly oversaw the paper's first month-plus of guilt-presuming coverage.

9.) “If the rape and kidnapping charges do not hold up, the story doesn’t end. The Times should be prepared to continue covering what is done about the racial-insult allegations, given the prominence of the team and the university.”

--Former Times “public editor” Byron Calame, April 23, 2006. Prosecutorial misconduct? The media’s rush to judgment? Professors betraying their profession? Not the story if the charges collapsed, according to Calame.

10.) “She was black, they were white, and race and sex were in the air.”

--Washington Post columnist Lynne Duke, May 24, 2006.

11.) “It’s impossible to avoid thinking of all the black women who were violated by drunken white men in the American South over the centuries. The master-slave relationship, the tradition of droit du seigneur , the use of sexual possession as an instrument of domination—all this ugliness floods the mind, unbidden, and refuses to leave.”

--Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson, April 25, 2006.

12.) “Having said something other than ‘no comment’ in the first place, it’s kind of like going into Iraq. It’s not a question of if you’re right to go in there. It’s a question of is it right to leave things a mess at this point in time?”

--Mike Nifong, April 2006, battling Bill (“Emmett Till”) Chafe for inappropriate analogies.

13.) “When the children of privilege feel vividly alive only while victimizing, even torturing, we must all ask why . . . The imperative to win, and damn all collateral costs, is not peculiar to Durham—and it is killing us.”

--Allan Gurganus, April 9, 2006, New York Times.

14.) “The lacrosse gals, 30 of 31 of whom are white, are apparently free to martyr their male lax mates . . . Does cross-team friendship and university pride negate common sense at a college as difficult to gain admission to as Duke? Has anyone—from the women’s lacrosse coach, Kerstin Kimel, to the Duke president, Richard H. Brodhead—reminded the players of the kind of behavior they are staking their own reputations on?”

--Times columnist Harvey Araton, May 2006. After the case ended, Araton refused to apologize.

15.) “Something happened on the night of March 13th—something so compelling that Durham District Attorney Michael Nifong was prompted to say, 'This case is not going away’ . . . We know that the two women were abused . . . The Duke scandal should lead colleges across the country to hold searching discussions about racial and sexual stereotypes, exposing the myths that entrap so many. But it shouldn’t take the brutalizing of a mother of two to raise these issues.”

--Former two-time presidential candidate Jesse Jackson, April 2006.

95 comments:

Anonymous said...

I’ve been a reader of this blog since quite near to its beginning. I’ve made a considerable number of anonymous posts over the span of time between then and now.


Here’s something to think about, somewhat off-topic, but it fits in with the overall theme here (exposing truth through reason, research, debate, and testing):

There is a good case to be made that George Soros is KGB. Let this sink in and then consider the implications, if true. Now, consider that this only really works if this is a secret; the vast majority of those who find themselves aligned and allied with his causes would necessarily not know and it is not like you can call up KGB/FSB and ask them for a reference or to confirm employment history. This leaves it to you to think about and research, if so inclined. And no, no one is claiming that Soros is a communist.

Intelligence Star

haskell said...

"The Duke scandal should lead colleges across the country to hold searching discussions about racial and sexual stereotypes, exposing the myths that entrap so many." -- Jesse Jackson

Well he got that right.

Debrah said...

“‘It’s the same old story. Duke up, Central down.’ Hall said he wanted to see the Duke students prosecuted ‘whether it happened or not. It would be justice for things that happened in the past.’”

**********************************************

One wonders if a person like this will ever change. Or will they become more rabid with age.

Anonymous said...

It seems there's still no shortage of those willing to select there own "facts" re. the "Jena 6" case, as can be seen in this worthwhile read: Journey to Jena, justice is long, misleading.

We'll see if this produces any quotes that can approach so many of those we've seen in this case.

Debrah said...

I want to include a personal one from Bob Ashley to the Diva:

"If you continue to abuse my staff, we will be less inclined to work with you in the future."

LOL!!!
LOL!!!
LOL!!!

I still love that one.

inman said...

So many of the comments refer to alleged actions occuring in the past.

"...things that happened in the past..."

"...all the black women who were violated by drunken white men in the American South over the centuries..."

"...racial and sexual stereotypes ..."


I think these people are absolutely right to assert the wrongs of the past and seek redress. And in that regard, I'd like to say that I am particularly incensed by the pagan sacrilege of the Romans when they invaded England. I'm frankly quite pissed off at the "take no prisoners" attitude of the Mongols under the leadership of Genghis Khan and the numerous rapes perpetrated by those under his command. The attitude of the Islamic nations during the time of the crusades was particularly egregious; they asserted the primality of 'Allah.' Yet, the Islamic nations never offered proof of Allah's relation to God. How could these people be allowed to speak such blasphemous assertions, even to the modern day?

Finally, the Mexican invasion of Texas and the slaughter of all defenders of the Alamo deserves singular rebuke.

If I was Jewish, I'd invoke the Godwin principle and ask that the holocaust be a subject for restitution. But I'll stick with the Mongols, the medieval Muslim nations, the Mexicans under Antonio López de Santa Anna and the Romans.

That's all the fodder I can chew at this time.

inman said...

debrah re: abusing the staff

...that's why I quivered when you mentioned the gluteus maximus.

Anonymous said...

Well, dang. If I'd known there was a possibility of another installment, I certainly would have nominated Hal "Couldn't-Find-It-With-Both-Hands-A-Flashlight-And-GPS" Crowther:

"Innocent was the word in general use, though all the Attorney General had actually determined was that they couldn’t be convicted—and shouldn’t have been indicted—on these charges brought by this witness (doesn’t that make them less innocent, technically, than, say, O.J. Simpson, who was actually acquitted?)."

What the Attorney General "had actually determined", in fact, was that there was no credible evidence of an assault happening that night, one of the reasons he did take the almost unprecedented step of declaring the three players -- yes, Hal -- innocent. Of course, you couldn't have expected poor Hal to know that. After all, it was only in the Attorney General's press conference and his press release; how could they ever expect him to find such obscure information?

Anonymous said...

In Chicago, nobody pays attention to Jesse Jackson these days. His "give me money or I'll call you a racist" extortion racket is just too familiar to have the same impact it did a few decades ago. I hope the rest of the country catches on soon.

Anonymous said...

"One wonders if a person like this will ever change. Or will they become more rabid with age."

Nah, they don't become more rabid. Too busy dodging child support payments, pregnant girlfriends, and GMAC repo-men.

Anonymous said...

Any progress on ongoing investigations to report? Federal probe?

mac said...

#15
"It was a dark and stormy night..." begins Snoopy's first novel.

Snoopy's second novel begins:
"Something happened on the night of March 13 - something so compelling..."

Oh. Sorry. It wasn't Snoopy, after all; it was Jesse.
Well, anyway, after writing those few words, Jesse got "truth-block," which is something like the writers block that Snoopy experienced.

Jesse never finished this novel, either. He's starting on another mythological tale called "Jena."

mac said...

#11: Eugene Robinson:
"All this ugliness floods the mind, unbidden, and refuses to leave."

There are several medications for that, Gene, but the one most commonly used causes tardive dyskinesia.

You might seek help, anyway.

Anonymous said...

The best quote, and confirmation of the upside down nature of this entire story comes from a prominent banner from the 'pot bangers'

"Real Men Tell the Truth"

To the pot-bangers' chagrin, this quote is the 'pivot point' of this pathetic story.

So called authority figures have either not told the truth, or simply denied the truth, while the Lax players were proven to be the only 'real men' in this story.

TW '78

John in DC said...

No, the ad (described by its author, Wahneema Lubiano, as about the “lacrosse incident”), just unequivocally stated that something happened to Mangum; and thanked people who had declared the players guilty.

The ad thanked people for making collective noise. You may believe this to be a distinction without a difference, but it is important to keep the record straight. I believe you can be better than this, but often choose not to.

Anonymous said...

For my money - the most telling comment of the condition is - "You're a dead man walking" spoken in a Court Room by a member of the Black Panthers without consequence. DG

mac said...

#9
"if the rape and kidnapping allegations don't hold up, the story doesn't end..."

Tell us about it!
It's become the focus for our little cottage industry!

And it doesn't end until we (or KC) say it ends. It isn't up to you, you son of a french whore who eats the bowels of stinky snails! As it is said in Monty Python's Holy Grail: "We fart in your general direction!"

Anonymous said...

I have been reading this blog from virtually the beginning (I am a duke grad) and my blood boiled for so long and the ending, at least the ending to date, was so great for the victims and their families that my blood stopped boiling and I forgot, just a little bit, exactly how despicable people behave and why i was so mad.

thx for reminding

mac said...

#10 Lynne Duke:

"She was white, they were black, and race and sex were in the air."

Must have had the radio on when you wrote that, babe! You gave Nifong and Wilson a love song to sing to Crystal Gayle!

"Love is in the Air" (John Paul Young)

"Love is in the air
Everywhere I look around
Love is in the air
Every sight and every sound

And I don't know if I'm being foolish
Don't know if I'm being wise
But it's something I must believe in
And it's there when I look in your eyes

Love is in the air
In the whisper of the trees
Love is in the air
In the thunder of the sea

And I don't know if I'm just dreaming
Don't know if I feel sane
But it's something I must believe in
And it's there when you call out my name

Love is in the air
Love is in the air
Oh oh oh
Oh oh oh

Love is in the air
In the rising of the sun
Love is in the air
When the day is nearly done

Don't know if you're an illusion
Don't know if I see it true
But you're something that I must believe in
And you're there when I reach out for you

Love is in the air
Every sight and every sound
And I don't know if I'm being foolish
Don't know if I'm being wise

But it's something that I must believe in
And it's there when I look in your eyes."

Debrah said...

30 million quite fair

mac said...

Tom Jolly:
"I'm very confortable with our coverage..."

Hey Tom. I hear a village is missing an idiot. Go home.

mac said...

Georgia Goslee,
"There was evidence of DNA of Seligmann..."

I have a quote, too:
"Wuz you BORN stupid, or duz you have to werk at it? You skeer me, lady."

I heard that somewhere - (some redneck, perhaps.) This paint comes in all colors, though, and it's on sale.

mac said...

#4
Harris Johnson:
"This just goes to show that justice can't be bought by a bunch of rich white boys from New York."

And who are you calling "boy?"

You don't get to use that word...boy.

Debrah said...

Below is an excerpt of an article in today's H-S. As you can see, Durham steeps its youth in "all things 'race' ".

Here you can see that even church events become places for concocting scenarios of injustice.

This is really quite sick.

***************************************


When Takera Nichols, a junior at Durham Performance Learning Center, began attending statewide church youth events, she noticed that her youth group stuck out.

"It's something that everybody noticed," Takera said. Other youths would change their language or act so-called "black," she said.

In the video, other youths talked about how their white counterparts would assume they liked hot sauce or used words like "shizzle." The Durham youths found that for some white North Carolina Lutheran teenagers, their experience with the African-American population was through stereotypical media images.

The video also talks about the different ways racism arises, from either ignorance or malice, and how it is passed down to children like a family heirloom.

The video was shown at the annual assembly of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's North Carolina Synod and provided to all 238 congregations.

The Rev. Leonard H. Bolick, bishop of the synod, said this week that the DVD was given to all churches because it lifts up the issue of racism across the church, which needs to address the issue.

"The video does this in a helpful way. It's like one part of the family telling the other part of the family where it needs to spend some time and effort," Bolick said.

"I am proud of the youth group, their leaders, Pastor Myers and the whole congregation who were, in various ways, instrumental in producing this helpful resource," he said.

Takera said she hopes the video will make her Lutheran brothers and sisters think about it. DVDs come with a leader's discussion guide.

"Your tongue is a powerful weapon. You've got to be careful what you say to people," she said.

Morris said that as some people get older, they realize what they said was childish.

"With age comes maturity, but some people don't change," Morris said.

Some of the youths involved, like Morris, have moved on to college. Shavon Alston, a Southern High School graduate featured in the DVD, is now a sophomore at N.C. Central University. Others are in college at NCCU, N.C. A&T, the University of Pennsylvania and Johnson & Wales University.

Michele said the reaction they received at the assembly after showing the video included surprise, but others said they knew and were glad the students made the video.

"But they didn't do anything about it," Michele said. "You can be aware something is happening, but if you don't do anything about it, nothing will change."

mac said...

"It's the same old story," Chan:
Virginia 24, Duke 13

Oh. Not that story.

"Justice for things that happened in the past"...12 months or so...Chka chka chka (sound of old-fashioned cash register)chka chka chka

CAAAAACHINNNGGGG!

Let's see: that'll be $30 million, sir. Will that be paper or plastic?

Debrah said...

H-S letter:

Lacrosse players should show city compassion

While I agree that the three Duke lacrosse players had their reputations damaged, I do not agree with the amount they are asking for. I also think they are going after the wrong people. They should be suing Mike Nifong and the woman who falsely accused them of rape.

Where do they think the $30 million is going to come from? We all know the answer. The taxpayers of Durham will have to reach into their pockets. They will have to receive a tax increase in order for these young men to be set for life. With $10 million, we do not really think these young men plan on working a job, do we? I know I would not work a day ever if I received $10 million.

I have retired parents who live in Durham. They cannot afford to support these young men for the rest of their lives. Why should they? I am asking these smart young men to please stop and think about what they are doing. They are not just hurting the Durham Police Department. They are now trying to punish the citizens of Durham for what happened. They had nothing to do with what happened. Have some compassion, please.

Cindy Wrenn
Yorktown, Va.
September 22, 2007

mac said...

Linwood Wilson, referring to Crystal Gayle's "secret."

"Yeah, I'd love to see it."

mac said...

Nifong:
"Having said...'no comment' in the first place..."

Would have saved you your law license, most of your pension (which you'll use keeping yourself out of jail) and would have been the best way to let this hoax go where it ought to have gone to begin with: nowhere.

Unfortunately, you said "something other than 'no comment.'" Which brings us to where we are at the moment - waiting for things to get much, much worse.

Debrah said...

TO 12:38 AM--

Tell me.

Was this information from a recent column written by Crowther in the Indy?

I rarely read that publication, mostly because I just don't think about picking it up when it's on the newsstands...for free.

Whe KC's book came out, I called their office to remind them of the book and asked if they were going to send someone to Page.....mostly just to annoy them.

Did Crowther write that recently, or is this just an old comment from when Cooper held his press conference?

Anonymous said...

It's too bad there are no quotes from Crystal.

I wonder what she is doing this morning.

Debrah said...

Inman ambiguously opines:

"debrah re: abusing the staff

...that's why I quivered when you mentioned the gluteus maximus."



I wasn't going to sit on them.

LIS!

mac said...

Dear Alan Grranus,

Let us speak back to you in your own peculiar style, each to each, a la J. Alfred Prufrock (though I do actually "dare to eat a peach," being straight.)

One might request that you indulge yourself in the reading of Samuel Clemons' "Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses," where you will find a SCREAMING collection of taunts, aimed at histrionic writers such as yourself (and Cooper, of course.)

Iit is simply unimaginable that you would feel "vividly alive" only when encouraging the false prosecution of three innocent young men, wishing upon them years and years of jailhouse intercourse. (It points to a rape-fantasy on your part, no? Yes?)

If you feel it is your "imperative to win," Al, maybe you should just...choose the truth? Which is sometimes...the winning side?

And yes, Alan: you are peculiar...in the City of Duhhh, in New York - no matter which village you use as your playground. (Bitch.) Your writing sucks, but your judgement is atrocious!

Let this missive be known as "A Smackdown From a Straight Man."

Anonymous said...

Is that great gospel singer, Linwood Wilson a Communist?

Michael said...

re: 9:05

[Where do they think the $30 million is going to come from? We all know the answer. The taxpayers of Durham will have to reach into their pockets. They will have to receive a tax increase in order for these young men to be set for life. With $10 million, we do not really think these young men plan on working a job, do we? I know I would not work a day ever if I received $10 million.]

In Silicon Valley, Millionaires Who Don’t Feel Rich

Mr. Steger, 51, a self-described geek, has banked more than $2 million. The $1.3 million house he and his wife own on a bluff overlooking the Pacific Ocean is paid off. The couple’s net worth of roughly $3.5 million places them in the top 2 percent of families in the United States.

Yet each day Mr. Steger continues to toil in what a colleague calls “the Silicon Valley salt mines,” working as a marketing executive for a technology start-up company, still striving for his big strike. Most mornings, he can be found at his desk by 7. He typically works 12 hours a day and logs an extra 10 hours over the weekend.

“I know people looking in from the outside will ask why someone like me keeps working so hard,” Mr. Steger says. “But a few million doesn’t go as far as it used to. Maybe in the ’70s, a few million bucks meant ‘Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous,’ or Richie Rich living in a big house with a butler. But not anymore.”

Silicon Valley is thick with those who might be called working-class millionaires — nose-to-the-grindstone people like Mr. Steger who, much to their surprise, are still working as hard as ever even as they find themselves among the fortunate few. Their lives are rich with opportunity; they generally enjoy their jobs. They are amply cushioned against the anxieties and jolts that worry most people living paycheck to paycheck.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/05/technology/05rich.html

I just have a hard time with $10 million (not that they would get anywhere near that after legal expenses and any taxes) as a huge amount of money. And I also have a hard time thinking that the Lacrosse players would just spend all of their time sipping a cold drink on a hot day.

What did the three accused do while they were waiting? Did they just do nothing? Or did they take calculus classes, volunteer and spend a lot of time working on to stay fit? I don't recall exactly what Dave Evans did but I do recall the stories of Finnerty and Seligmann keeping rather busy while hanging out in limbo. It seems to me that their parents prepared them to be productive members of society.

Judge Rufus Peckham said...

My vote for number one is the "castrate" sign -- that sums up the tolerant activists' idea of justice in this case.

Anonymous said...

To 12:14 AM

Thanks for posting the link to Journey to Jena.

Good article. The comments are sobering, in fact, frightening. There are some angry, p.o.'d people out there.

TruthHurts001 said...

the ad just unequivocally stated that something happened to Mangum; and thanked people who had declared the players guilty.

The ad thanked people for making collective noise.

And the people who were thanked for "making collective noise" were in fact people "who had declared the players guilty", therefore the ad thanked people who had declared the players guilty.

GW said...

To KC Johnson: Thank you for devoting so much of your time to this wonderful blog. I truly enjoyed reading it over the past 14+ months. You're one of the "good guys."

Debrah said...

TO 9:40 AM--

No.

Just a bad dresser.......which is far worse!

Linny singing gospel

Anonymous said...

Debrah --

It's from his "Worst of the South" article published in the July 2007 issue of "Oxford American".

Even allowing for lead time before publication, the AG's declaration was in early April. I'd say that Hal Crowther had at least two months to at least ask around and say "hey, why are you calling these guys 'innocent'? That's not what the Attorney General said, is it?" and find out that in fact it was widely known that the Attorney General had said exactly that.

John in DC said...

And the people who were thanked for "making collective noise" were in fact people "who had declared the players guilty", therefore the ad thanked people who had declared the players guilty.

Hardly. You can certainly draw that inference, but it's not the same thing. KC has on occasion thanked his commenters here. Some of them have clearly made racist remarks. Would it be fair to state that KC has thanked people for making racist remarks? I would hope not.

mac said...

Harvey Araton:

Boy you are really funny! Boy! You mention that the women's lacrosse team was "staking their reputations" on what kind of behavior?

Like, how about your behavior? How is your reputation these days, having staked it to a hoax? Boy-oh-boy.

Do the shoes shine? They sure fit.

mac said...

#5, Dick Brodhead:

"Quite a number of people," Dick, told you the truth.

Which is more than they told Wahneema, whom they (apparently) hoped would fall on her own sword, or would drown in her own bile etc. No one said a word to her.

The difference is, Dick, that someone was trying to help you; now you'll be known forever as someone who collaborated - (Vichy-like) - with a grave injustice.

Shoulda listened.

miramar said...

This list of quotes is quite useful as the blog wraps up because it reminds us how many direct participants, enablers, supporters, reality deniers, and unquestioning followers the entire hoax had. At this point many of those involved want to sell the story that this was a one man show, but the list demonstrates otherwise. The so-called willing suspension of disbelief spread far wider than these people want to admit, because if they did then they would have to take responsibility for their actions and apologize for them. It's much easier to blame it all on Nifong.

mac said...

#6
Mikey, May 26:

"I don't know why counsel for the defense would think there was anything of evidentiary value on that cell phone."

That's because Nifong et al thought Elmostafa's April statement could be shaken in May.

As Three Dog Night put it:

"I've got pieces of April,
I keep em in a memory bouquet
I've got pieces of April,
It's a morning in May"

Well. No wonder the cell phone was of no "evidentiary value" to Mikey: he thought he had Elmostafa by his pieces. Then Elmostafa was acquitted in August, and Mikey's pieces were under scrutiny.

Debrah said...

"It's impossible to avoid thinking of all the black women who were violated by drunken white men in the American South over the centuries. The master-slave relationship........"

Oh, Eugene, it was just a false alarm.

LIS!!!

KC Johnson said...

To the 10.46:

Given that I have a stated policy of deleting any racist remarks that are brought to my attention; and a stated policy since the beginning of comment moderation not to approve racist remarks, it seems to me it would be quite a stretch to say that I have thanked people for racist remarks.

I'm also not aware of any occasion in which I have thanked commenters for "making collective noise" or for "not waiting." Indeed, when I have thanked commenters, I normally have been quite precise as to what I was thanking them for--correcting an error, or asking good questions.

If, on the other hand, the bulk of the comments on the blog were racist ones; and if, further, I had issued a statement ("in the most easily seen venue" on the blog) thanking the commenters for their "collective noise" and for not waiting, I can see where your analogy would make sense.

The Group's statement (described by its author as about the "lacrosse incident") said, "To the protesters making collective noise, thank you for not waiting and for making yourself heard."

The protests of March 25, March 26, and March 29 received extensive local and campus media coverage. It seems to me absurd to assert that, in the context of the time, an ad thanking protesters for "making collective noise" and for "not waiting" did not refer to the protesters who, in fact, "made collective noise" and, in fact, "didn't wait."

The months-after-the-fact assertion by some in the Group that the ad might not have referred to the widely covered protests but instead to some unspecified (and still unrevealed) protests is an almost comical claim.

Debrah said...

KC has on occasion thanked his commenters here. Some of them have clearly made racist remarks. Would it be fair to state that KC has thanked people for making racist remarks? I would hope not.

***************************

Get off it, man.

This tired game has been played and played.

If reporting and discussing the facts of what occurred and is still occurring in this case is "racist", then I most fully agree.

Crystal Mangum, Kim Roberts, Mike Nifong, the Gritty Gang of 88, Pee Wee Brodhead, Burness, the H-S, the N&O editorial staff, Vaden, Saunders, Childress, Landfried, Ashley, the Durham City Council, Mayor Bell, countless "men of G/d" who preached hate, numerous Durham residents...etc.......

......all have been a part of the biggest racist démarche in modern history.

Thank you for making that point so clearly.

Anonymous said...

john in dc (10:46 a.m.)

KC has on occasion [emphasis mine] thanked his commenters here. Some of them have clearly made racist remarks. Would it be fair to state that KC has thanked people for making racist remarks?

That would depend on your deftly-inserted qualifier, wouldn't it? The occasion of KC's thank you's. Whom he thanked and why. Context determines what inferences you can draw from his statements.

As to the G88's "listening statement," it was made to those who were "making collective noise" and "not waiting" (for a full investigation of the facts, for due process, or for anything). Most people reading this thread are perfectly aware of the context of the G88 statement when it was published, and the inference about their presumption of the lacrosse players' guilt is reasonable and, all other explanations for it verging on ridiculous, a necessary one.

dave in L.A.

Debrah said...

Come to think of it....I can't remember KC ever thanking anyone except when some poster pointed out to him a typo or something.

I really don't know where this whole topic is coming from.

Oh, KC did thank those who went to his Page Auditorium appearance.

KC's not really an emotional type. I don't remember him gushing Valentines all over the blog......ever.

Anonymous said...

Well, perhaps there should be "searching discussions in colleges across the country to hold serious discussions about racial and sexual stereotypes, exposing the myths that entrap so many." but discussed not in the way that Jesse Jackson apparantly presumed.

Anonymous said...

The ending is even more scary than the beginning of this hoax. The DukeGroup88 enablers and Duke's president and administration are still in place. The punished are Nifong and the lacrosse team and its coach. The horror of this like some diseased group of cud chewing camels crosses the dessert of political correctness and moves on unabated and without remorse searching for the next watering hole in which to drown its collected victims. These rascist have learned nothing.

Anonymous said...

KC...Just wondering.

Have you ever seen the cover email (I assume there was one) that Wahneema Lubiano sent to the faculty with the solicitation to sign the "We're Listening" ad.

If this email exists do you think it will ever see the light of day?

I can't ask Professor Lubiano myself since I've been summarily sentenced to her email filter.

Debrah said...

TO 12:18 PM--

No doubt, all features of her and her fellow 88 urchins' criminality have been destroyed.

Or at least locked away nicely from public view.

Some of them may be stupid; however, we all know they don't wish to pay for their behavior out of their own pockets.

Duke picked up the hefty tab for them once.

Anonymous said...

Given its coverage of the Jena Six, it looks like the PC media has learned NOTHING from the Duke lacrosse rape hoax. Look at this story from the BBC (which happened to be the first on the list when I googled about Jena): The latest PC media hoax.

John in DC said...

The protests of March 25, March 26, and March 29 received extensive local and campus media coverage. It seems to me absurd to assert that, in the context of the time, an ad thanking protesters for "making collective noise" and for "not waiting" did not refer to the protesters who, in fact, "made collective noise" and, in fact, "didn't wait."

I think that's fair. But it's still not the case that they specifically thanked people for declaring the LAX players guilty. That's one step too far, and you very well know it.

The ad is indefensible. You don't need to embellish it to make it so.

Anonymous said...

Debra, Duke has picked up "the hefty tab" and added to it. Money and status has been given to these horrible people. These are people who incited the mob and who were rabid hate mongerers and who were rewarded. These dispicables are the present day politically correct "robber baron" inciting the mob and riding a lucrative rail of intellectual fraud all the way to the bank and their stock in trade is rascism, no more no less.

KC Johnson said...

To the 1.24:

I didn't say that the ad had thanked people for declaring the players guilty.

I said that it "thanked people who had declared the players guilty."

Anonymous said...

12:18 PM

The presence of an e-mail can be assumed by the behavior of the Duke professor, who apologizing, for signing the first statement; nevertheless, she signed the clarifying statement explaining with words to the effect that her voice would not be worth very much in the Duke environment if she didn't sign. Yes, Lubianno was abusive and coerceive. The people who enabled and signed these documents are hyprocites at the very least, but I have a great deal of sympathy for this last mentioned individual. Like the Nazis or the Bathis, these academics, like the DukeGroup88, are people who enforce solidarity. People elsewhere in academia, like the Duke University Board of Trustees and its president, are afraid of them. To challenge them, the DukeGroup88 and their ilk, is to be called rascist or sexist, and this did happen to some of the very few who spoke out against the DukeGroup88. The "something" of these academics manifests itself at Duke in the much discussed code of student behavior, but more horribly this attitude is part and parcel of a world view by modern academia and by extention, the mainstream media.

Anonymous said...

Off Topic KC - I do not have an opinion about Jena, La as I do not have all of the "facts." I do know that hanging nooses in trees is an agressive and suggestive act. I do know that two hours in an ED does not make a very sick patient. I also know that six to one is unfair.

Sam said...

another one you missed, KC

"That is absolutely false...and you know it"
-Brad Bannon during the contempt hearing about the lack of exculpatory evidence

Bob H. said...

Now that this is just about over, the truth and corruption revealed, most of the guilty identified, some of them punished, I have a confession to make.

In no way would I wish such an injustice to befall the three young men falsely accused, nor do I have anything but sympathy for the besmirched reputations of the other members of the lacrosse team, for them personally. And while I do not condone the actions that started this chain of events, the hiring of strippers, neither do I believe they deserve any of the misfortune that has come their way. No one can condone the corruption of the public officials, the abandonment of the University officials or the betrayal of Duke’s faculty.

This entire fiasco has been just that, with hardly anything good or redeeming that has resulted from it, except one:

Nothing warms my heart more than seeing the phony, manufactured, preppy, well coiffed image of Duke University revealed for what it is – an insulated, inbred, self serving entity that has long had a distorted perception of self. Toothy, high-retail, upper end kids driving daddy’s wheels to the soup kitchen! Duke – with it’s “smart”, academic kids sneering and shouting vile epithets at opponents from behind Coach K’s Korner at basketball games. Duke – the Ivy wannabe, the social engineers that overlooks the needs in it’s own back yard, but invites those with catastrophic medical maladies from the Third World to benefit from Duke’s largesse. Too bad they botched it for the kid from Mexico, but at least they tried!

Pull back the veneer of gentility, of smugness, of the contentment that their money has bought, and we see a snake pit, moral rot promoted by unprincipled leaders.

no justice, no peace said...

Inre: 9:24 Crystal, "...I wonder what she is doing this morning."

Don't you mean to say, "I wonder WHO she is doing this morning?"

Debrah said...

"It is simply unimaginable that you would feel "vividly alive" only when encouraging the false prosecution of three innocent young men, wishing upon them years and years of jailhouse intercourse. (It points to a rape-fantasy on your part, no? Yes?)"

Mac--You must remember that Allan Gurganus spent an inordinate amount of time discussing young men's bodies as well.

He even compared the bodies of the lacrosse players to those almost-nude male models in Abercrombie & Fitch--the ones that caused such a stir among some catalogue subscribers.

He and people like him--the Gritty Gang of 88--seem to spend a bizarre amount of time on the sex lives of young people.

It's perverted.

Yet it is these perverts who are allowed endless space on the editorial pages of (liberal) newspapers to libel anyone they wish.

Anonymous said...

It just dawned on me after all these months - Nifong is a victim of the Peter Principle. Maybe even its poster child. For those to young to know of this principle: in any organization people tend to rise one level above their level of competency. If you are a great saleman, they will make you the sales manager where you will probably at best only be fair manager and by all measures fail.

Mikey N. probably was an OK assistant DA, he just couldn't handle being in charge. He folded under pressure. If only we had known, he could have copped a pass under the ADA. How fitting would that have been?

Anonymous said...

to "Bob h":

get a life -- your a prisoner of that common American virus, "The Myth of Equality." Sorry, "Bob h", but some peolpe are actually smarter, better looking, richer and luckier than others, which in no way qualifies them for moral opprobrium.
This has all the consistency of that mass of unattractive Americans who, in a knee-jerk reaction, refer to Paris Hilton as "that slut", simply because she's young, rich, attractive, successful and has sexual relations.
I don't see why, because of their social standing, Duke students deserve special condemnation, but I can see where you might qualify.

John in DC said...

I said that it "thanked people who had declared the players guilty."

I contend that this is in fact a distinction without a difference. And you know that as well KC.

rrhamilton said...


John in DC said...
I said that it "thanked people who had declared the players guilty."

I contend that this is in fact a distinction without a difference. And you know that as well KC.

9/22/07 6:06 PM

The more important question: When will she thank the people who declared the players innocent?

Anonymous said...

I didn't say that the ad had thanked people for declaring the players guilty.

I said that it "thanked people who had declared the players guilty."
-KC

I think that's the point John in DC is trying to make KC. What they did thank them for is making collective noise.

What you stated at least implies that they approved of the sentiment, that this was the reason they were being thanked. You might as well have written that they thanked people who had asked for players to be castrated.

Anonymous said...

Those who object to the $30M bill going to Durham -- should consider that there has been a scarcity of PUBLIC APOLOGIES from the City, the Police Department, Duke University, the Feckless 88, the nappy headed Ho, the New Black Panther Party, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the Pot Bangers or any of the national media racist morons who piled on to play their role in the lynching of these INNOCENT boys.

In fact - many continue in their belief of the rape hoax....
These folks aren't entitled to the requested "compassion"....

We're talking about folks who REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE their own assault on the principals of Justice - and used this sordid hoax to advance their own racist agenda..

The facts didn't get their attention..

Perhaps the turmoil of dealing with the consequences of having the city of Durham pay $30M will convince them the consequences of bad actions is expensive...and WILL get their attention.

KC Johnson said...

To the 7.07:

"You might as well have written that they thanked people who had asked for players to be castrated."

Indeed, I could have, but it would have been a less accurate point, since some protesters who presumed guilt did not (publicly, anyway) advocate castration. The castration demand was one of many that presumed guilt.

One could argue, I suppose, that 88 profs and (allegedly) five departments and ten programs signed onto a statement that thanked protesters for the noise they made, but presumed that people would ignore the words formed by that noise. That strikes me as an absurd reading of the ad--the sort of thing one would expect from Amelia Bedelia, not professors at one of the world's leading universities.

And, I should point out, not even the Group has contended that they were thanking the protesters for the sounds they made while suggesting that people should have ignored the words those sounds formed.

rrhamilton said...

"the New Black Panther Party, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the Pot Bangers or any of the national media racist morons"

They've already moved onto the next hoax, in poor Jena. The same people who believed Crystal Mangum will love Mychal Bell. And this time, the attack will be on some poor whites who have no clue how and no money with which to defend themselves.

Debrah said...

TO 7:07 PM--

How tedious.

What unadulterated nonsense.

KC might wish to parse words with people like you and engage your dishonest motives....simply because he needs to remain objective when writing his posts.....sticking to the facts without a lot of editorializing.

Some of us don't need to do that.

You can twist and turn and even wallow inside a Clinton-esque mirage of what is...is.......all day long.

Here's what most of the world knows quite well...just from watching:

The Gang of 88, with some members having been more enthusiastic than others, staged a deliberate smear campaign against the lacrosse team.

Reade, Collin, and David, in particular.

I don't happen to care how you form your subjects and predicates...or how you twist your adjectives and adverbs.

Those Duke professors deliberately incited students of like mind and pathologies to make as much of a show as possible to promote their personal agendas.

Now move on to another topic. Your exercise in verbal gymnastics to try to salvage a whiff of decency from these 88 gangsters is becoming tedious.

You are disingenuous.

You waste a lot of time, and the time of others as well.

On pure trivia.

Debrah said...

Anonymous 7:07 PM brings back fond memories of a poster on an earlier thread who identified him/herself as being from the Duke community and who almost choked to death arguing with me about the human content of Page.

Shades of a navel-gazer conquering

Bob H. said...

To anonymous @ 5:35 pm

Rather than ask the question "why should Duke students deserve special condemnation, just because they may be smarter, or richer or whatever?", consider the question "Why should Duke students act in such a way as to denigrate those who, either by choice or circumstance, find themselves in situations that Dookies find less than attractive?" It would be disingenuous, at best, to say the stereo-type Duke undergrad is inaccurate. They actually do ride around in BMW’s purchased by Daddy; they actually have sizable credit lines, fabulous wardrobes and prep school breeding. Have you heard the chants at Cameron, directed at the opposing teams from Chapel Hill and NC State? The condescending remarks about their "public school, public school !" As if these kids, at eighteen to twenty-two, can really claim to merit a special status in life due to their own unaided achievements! We all seek assistance, a hand, a connection to get ahead. Not all of us are so insensitive to the good fortune that delivers us into the front row of life. Nor are those who have striven mightily, at a young age, to overcome some of the disadvantages of demographics as insensitive to those who are still working against greater odds, without the connections, to achieve their goals. The problem with so many of the Duke kids is that, having been born on third base, they think they hit a triple. So, I am more than happy to see an ugly gash on that clear coat finish.

And, it might reflect better on you if, rather than take a personal shot at me, you would stick to the matter at hand.

Anonymous said...

bob h. said ...
It would be disingenuous, at best, to say the stereo-type Duke undergrad is inaccurate. They actually do ride around in BMW’s purchased by Daddy; they actually have sizable credit lines, fabulous wardrobes and prep school breeding. Have you heard the chants at Cameron, directed at the opposing teams from Chapel Hill and NC State? The condescending remarks about their "public school, public school !" As if these kids, at eighteen to twenty-two, can really claim to merit a special status in life due to their own unaided achievements! We all seek assistance, a hand, a connection to get ahead. Not all of us are so insensitive to the good fortune that delivers us into the front row of life....


This is an interesting comment with which I would like to engage, but I cannot before first learning what was bob h.'s "good fortune" that delivered him "into the front row of life"?

RRH

Anonymous said...

great " born on third base and think they hit a triple." Well put - I do not want to see an ugly gash on anyone's finish. These woman did not do the strip for free = eight hundred bucks for two hours is good money - I know it was four minutes. No home visits is the key.

Anonymous said...

"So, I am more than happy to see an ugly gash on that clear coat finish."

Some day, perhaps, you will realize the ugly gash is on you for feeling that way.

sceptical said...

KC,
Did you include the following quote from Mike nifong (or did I miss it)?

http://crime.about.com/b/a/257183.htm

You can make the case go away pretty easily. Anybody could. The next D.A., or me if I were so inclined. You can do it with the stroke of a pen. But that does nothing to address the underlying divisions that have been revealed. My personal feeling is the first step to addressing those divisions is addressing this case," said Nifong, who is up for re-election next week. "That is not the kind of thing that you can really assign to somebody else and say, 'You go do this for me. The future of Durham's in the balance and I don't really want to get my hands dirty. You do it.'"

Anonymous said...

A great man once said, "Never be humble to the haughty or haughty to the humble."

RRH

inman said...

bob h. @ 8:20

Your generalizations are offensive.

There may be kids at Duke who fit your stereotype. But here are the facts:

"Four of 10 undergraduates receive need-based financial aid. The average need-based grant awarded in 2005-06 -- the most recent year for which final totals have been calculated -- was more than $24,000." (www.duke.edu)

So 40% of the Duke student population, BY DEFINITION, does not fit your stereotype. Of the remaining 60%, if I may be so bold as to suggest, many (if not most) do not fit the BMW-driving, credit-line toting, wardrobe-laden Daddy's kids that you so cavalierly suggest as the norm.

In fact, I'd be willing to wager that among the 60%, many come from homes blessed with hard-working fathers and mothers who by virtue of that hard work, financial ethics and saving find it a priviledge to purchase an oustanding education for their child (children), without the need for financial aide. But, although blessed by hard work and foresight, those same hard-working fathers and mothers would find your stereotype to be most inappropriate.

So yes, I'm sure their are a few who flaunt their family's wealth.

But my experience is that only the truly nouveau riche feel a need to display their wealth.

My grandfather said that the heirarchy of status went something like this...

new blood ... no money
new blood ... new money
new blood ... old money
old blood ... new money
old blood ... old money
old blood ... no money.

It's the second category that you illuminate. You pay too much attention to false values.

One can think of the last -- old blood, no money -- as those who take a vow of poverty and pursue a pure existence before God.

Again, may I repeat...

...your generalizations are offensive.

Anonymous said...

"That strikes me as an absurd reading of the ad--the sort of thing one would expect from Amelia Bedelia, not professors at one of the world's leading universities.

And, I should point out, not even the Group has contended that they were thanking the protesters for the sounds they made while suggesting that people should have ignored the words those sounds formed."

Oh. My. G*D. I almost missed this gem!


Ummmm, just a suggestion, but if you ever tire of teaching and scholarship, perhaps you can join the writing team on "The Daily Show with Jon Stewart" because you are seriously funny!


". . . while suggesting that people should have ignored the words those sounds formed" is my #1 quote! And you worked in an Amelia Bedelia reference - you have a gift!

Anonymous said...

RRH:

Who is the the great man you quote, and what does it have to do with Duke?

Bob H. said...

Anonymous @ 9:59 pm

"I do not want to see an ugly gash on anyone's finish."

Does that apply to Nifong, the Gang of 88, Brodhead, the Durham Police officers?

Bob H. said...

inman,

you may repeat until your heart's content, but it is of no matter to me.

Remind me why Duke's financial aid numbers can be taken at face value, why you are certain there has been no manipulation.

As for stereo types, the students themselves reinforce it, so why should you bother to dispel that which they embrace?

Bob H. said...

If these Duke students are so great, so committed, so concerned about their dear university, why is it that so few of them have bothered to express any objection to what has happened. The Class of 2006, whose senior year was spoiled, the oldest and, seemingly most aware of the undergrads, barely raised a peep. The women’s' lacrosse team showed solidarity, but the response from nearly everyone else was pretty flaccid.

When given the opportunity to sign a petition this past spring, barely 1,000 students (if you can even believe all were legit) bothered to put their names down. The new editor of the Chronicle is nothing but a mouthpiece for the administration, wanting everyone to just “move on”. Ha ha, as each day passes, the radicals will gain ground and the cowards will escape their betrayals. They will polish the brass, have a few traveling road shows, send out their recruiters to Harding Township, to New Canaan and Pound Ridge. Let the child of some ambassador from Peru or Senegal satisfy the “person of color” box, and we can be on our way. Duke does not care much about what has happened, even if the folks on this blog do.

Debrah said...

TO 11:33 PM--

That's what I have been saying for months.

KC is hot-to-the-max!

Anyone who doesn't know that hasn't read his posts closely or listened to him closely.

(Speaking of hot...and the Jon Stewart Show)

Stephen Colbert is featured in the October edition of Vanity Fair without his glasses and airbrushed inside a black turtleneck.

Amazingly, he looks very handsome.

That's why good photographers are so valuable.

Anonymous said...

Yes, debra, their skills are indeed valuable. One can only wonder why you chose not to enlist them.

Debrah said...

LOL!!!

TO 12:35 AM--

I love it.

Let me warn you:

I have dealt with envious b!tches like you (both male and female) all of my life.

ROTFLM-T's-O !!!

inman said...

bob h. @ 12:16 and 12:20

Let me restate ... your attitude is offensive.

And I'll add, I think you are a moron...with a 'hard on' for what, ... I don't know.

I guess you hate being you. You only want to look through the color of your own eyes and ignore the facts. That is one reason why you are so offensive.

So i'll repeat and expand ... your comments are offensive and you are a moron.

Anonymous said...

Lacrosse woman and coach, were then and are now herpines. They will proudly be telling their children and grandchildren about this event.

Anonymous said...

Can you dopes, cursing and calling names try to have some manners and decorum. Are people drinking again tonight?

C Hall said...

I'm wondering. Is there an explaination for the contests presented in this post other than Chan Hall being a revolting bigot and Jesse Jackson being a media-whoring scam artist?

Anonymous said...

I 2d the above post. Who needs hostility?

Anonymous said...

Do you all really, really want to know why the campus was so lukewarm to the Lax cause and did not protest a lot and only a few were activists and why the students did not even vote in the election and why so few even signed the petition? Because the campus as a whole knew the truth about the Lax team and ....you all do not. You have romanticised them as "a cause". a cause againist blacks, a cause againist gender and racial studies, a cause againist affirmative action, etc. The truth is that the Lax team was a bunch of a--holes and that is why everyone believed the worst about them. Although you guys have tried to portray them as saints on here, they were far from it and that is why the campus did not support them the way they should have.