Wednesday, July 11, 2007

The Depositions and the Whichard Committee, II

Yesterday’s post examined how the depositions prepared for the Nifong ethics hearing illustrated the Durham Police Department’s inability to evaluate basic evidence. Today’s post will look at how the Himan, Gottlieb, Wilson, and Ripberger depositions reveal a department careless about basic investigative practices and disrespectful of principles of due process.

Basic Investigative Practices

Long before Mike Nifong was disgraced, the “straight-from-memory” Gottlieb notes exemplified the shady practices associated with this case. In mid-July—after defense filings had revealed major problems in Nifong’s case—Gottlieb produced the typed, undated “supplementary case notes,” with handwritten notes confined to two insignificant items from an afternoon in late April.

Gottlieb’s notes contained yawning discrepancies with the rest of the file. He claimed that the photos from this session showed Crystal Mangum with face and neck bruises. And he recalled Mangum giving dead-on descriptions of the three accused players (descriptions that looked a lot like their profiles from the Duke lacrosse website) at the March 16, 2006 interview—even though Himan’s contemporaneous handwritten notes showed entirely different descriptions that in no way resembled either Reade Seligmann or Collin Finnerty.

In his deposition, Gottlieb conceded that he had, in fact, produced the notes straight from memory—asserting that he remembered Mangum giving these dead-on descriptions nearly three months after the date of the interview. The claim, of course, was absurd.

So what happened to Gottlieb’s handwritten notes? As he explained in the deposition,

I did take notes to organize myself and to help Investigator Himan organize the investigation just on my board. And I have a board in my office, it’s a dry-erase board. And, for example, Investigator Himan would say, “I need to have someone look at different things, how we can get a hair analysis done,” And I would put my name next to that. And then he’d say, “I need a background done for this person.” I would assign someone to do that if he wasn’t going to do it. He’d say, “I need a court order to get e-mail records,” put his name next to that, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I had asked him and was under the impression that he was taking photographs of the board, and when we finished that we would clear it. That wasn’t done. And I apologize for that.

This explanation was so absurd as to be comical—until remembering that the “straight-from-memory” notes were treated as legitimate evidence by both Nifong and the Durham Police (and, for that matter, the New York Times).

Most cops are compulsive note-takers: how else could they remember events months, or even years, afterwards, if they are called to testify? Surely, therefore, his superiors must have rebuked Gottlieb for such a blatant violation of standard investigative practice. Yet, to date, no evidence exists that anyone in the DPD ever expressed any discomfort with Gottlieb’s peculiar notetaking strategies.

Yet a member of the force did come under investigation for his behavior in the case. The DPD powers that be went after the first officer to encounter Mangum after the lacrosse party—Sgt. John Shelton. Shelton concluded, correctly, that Mangum was likely lying, and he made his opinion perfectly clear, in both handwritten notes and a timely supplementary filing.

For doing so, he was trashed repeatedly in depositions, criticized on the stand by ex-DA Nifong, and—according to the deposition of Linwood Wilson—subjected to an internal affairs inquiry.

So: the DPD did nothing to an officer who, on the surface, appears to have manufactured evidence to try to convict innocent people; and at the same time went after the one member of the force who got things right from the start. That’s quite a record.

Principles of Due Process

In one of the single best lines this case produced, USC law professor Susan Estrich wrote, “There are reasons you follow procedures. In general, they are there to spare outrage.”

This comment certainly applies to the April 4 lineup, in which Nifong ordered the DPD to ignore its own procedures—which required five filler photos per suspect—and produce a lineup confined to lacrosse players. Gottlieb ran the array, told Mangum that she would only see people that the police believed attended the party, and videotaped the proceeding. The whole affair all but invited the accuser, after two failed lineups following procedure, to pick three people.

As could have been expected, the procedural monstrosity directly led to a monstrous result: the indictment, without probable cause, of three demonstrably innocent people. Even so, both the investigators involved in the case and their police supervisors continue to defend the photo array as perfectly proper.

Lt. Mike Ripberger—who supervised both Gottlieb and Himan—said that he “did not have concern” with the suspects-only lineup, either at the time or later. Why not?, asked Bar attorney Doug Brocker. Ripberger: “Because I did not look at this as a lineup or an array to identify a particular suspect or known suspect.”

In other words, Mangum was (1) going to be shown photographs of only people that the police and Nifong had publicly identified as suspects; (2) and asked if she remembered how she interacted with them on the night of the party—(3) at a time when she was claiming that she had interacted with three of them by being sexually assaulted. But that’s not a lineup, according to Ripberger. The lieutenant’s suggestion: even if Mike Nifong hadn’t ordered Gottlieb and Himan to run a lineup contrary to procedure, the department’s officers wouldn’t have followed procedure anyway.

With their immediate superior displaying such a cavalier attitude toward procedure, it’s little wonder that Himan and Gottlieb did as well. In their depositions, both asserted that the April 4 event wasn’t a “lineup” since they were only seeking to identify potential witnesses among the lacrosse players. Gottlieb added the peculiar rationale that the procedure also would test for whether Mangum was given a date-rape drug.

The duo conceded, however, that the March 16 and March 21 photo arrays--in which Mangum was shown photos of lacrosse players named Matt, Adam, Brett/Breck, Dan Flannery, and Dave Evans, with five other lacrosse players serving as fillers for each array--were lineups, and therefore covered by the General Order regulation.

This explanation means that Dave Evans was considered:

  • a “known suspect” from March 16 until at least March 21;
  • not considered a suspect at all as of March 31 (and perhaps earlier) until April 4;
  • conveniently viewed as a suspect again sometime after April 5.

No one from the Durham PD has ever explained what new information the department received between March 21 and March 31 that prompted Himan and Gottlieb to abandon their earlier assumptions that Evans (as well as Flannery and the players named Matt, Adam, Brett/Breck) were the known suspects.

In effect, then, as things now stand, the DPD’s position on lineups amounts to the following: General Order 4077 requires five filler photos per suspect, as a way of guarding against false identifications. But in tough cases, or in cases where an accuser or witness can’t identify anyone, the department will just ignore the procedure and confine the lineup to suspects. To cover themselves, they will say that the purpose is to identify “witnesses” and that the people previously identified as suspects no longer are considered so. Maybe the lineup will get thrown out in court, but unless the defendant has an attorney of the quality of Jim Cooney—the architect of the December 14 suppression motion—it’s unlikely a judge would also bar the accuser/witness from making an in-court ID, which could well suffice to get a conviction.

The Ripberger/Gottlieb/Himan thesis leaves two and only two options for any fair-minded investigative committee: either the DPD is full of incompetent people, including high up the chain of command; or the department knew exactly what it was doing in constructing a procedurally flawed lineup, and concocted the “search for witnesses” story as a cover. (Both explanations are also possible.)

A Cover-up?

That the April 4 lineup was intended to identify people to arrest, not to produce witnesses, is obvious both from its structure and how it was used:

1.) Even though police did not tape the first two lineups, which unquestionably were designed to produce people to arrest, they did tape the April 4 lineup, with Gottlieb’s notes revealing an expectation that a jury would then be able to view the proceeding.

2.) If the goal were to prompt Mangum to identify witnesses from the party, it’s hard to explain why police would have excluded from the lineup three people (Devon Sherwood and two non-lacrosse players) that officers knew attended the party but who Nifong or his office had publicly ruled out as suspects.

3.) Despite the Ripberger/Gottlieb/Himan trio’s claims that the department didn’t have to follow procedure because the lineup was designed to provide openings to identify witnesses, no evidence exists that police ever used the lineup for the purpose of speaking to potential witnesses.

a.) Had the lineup actually been intended to produce witnesses, for instance, the police should have called up Brad Ross to say that Mangum had noticed him “standing outside talking to the other dancer,” and asked what else he saw at the party. Instead, of course, it was Ross’s attorneys who provided evidence to the police that Ross actually had been in Raleigh for the party’s duration. Since the police don’t appear to have taken Mangum’s ID of Ross as a witness seriously, this information had no effect on their actions.

b.) And had the lineup been intended to produce witnesses, the police should have confined their efforts in the April 13 nighttime sojourn to the Edens dorm to those who Mangum recalled seeing at the party. In his justification for the suspects-only lineup, Himan declared, “We were trying to get it narrowed down to who we cold go speak to or who we should go speak to . . . narrow our investigation down t see who she does recall, who does she remember.”

Yet in that trip to Edens, police spoke to one and only one lacrosse player at any length—Michael Young. Here was the relevant portion of the April 4 lineup regarding Young:

IMAGE 2 (Michael Young)

Mangum: I don’t recognize him.

So: (1) the police taped the April 4 lineup—for the “jury”—and didn’t tape other, procedurally proper lineups; (2) they claimed to be using the lineup to search for witnesses, but excluded from the lineup three people they knew were present at the party; (3) despite the stated claim that the lineup’s purpose was to narrow the list of people with whom they could speak, the only lacrosse player with whom they spoke at length between April 4 and the indictments was someone that Mangum didn’t recognize in the April 4 lineup.

On the surface, then, it appears that the DPD not only blatantly violated its own procedures, but also concocted a not-too-believable tale to cover up for its misconduct.

How could any fair-minded committee not be horrified by such a record?


psych said...

The duo of Gottlieb and Himan never believed Crystal. That is why they originally did not want to indict Seligmann. They did not know that he was at the party. They knew that they would really be fucked if it turned out he wasn't even in Durham. Essentially that is what Himan testified to at Nifong's disbarment hearing.

Anonymous said...

Don't worry, K.C. The Whichard Committee will find a way to swallow this piece of crap just as it seems everyone else in the DPD and prosecutor's office did. Keep in mind that when one is engaged in the act of framing innocent people, anything will do.

Furthermore, the judges (with the possible exception of Osmond Smith) seemed to be in on the scam, too. I think we have to understand that Durham is a place that decent people want to avoid. The cops and judges are a bunch of liars and crooks, and the voters apparently want liars and crooks to represent them.

Anonymous said...

The purpose of the Whichard Committee is to help whitewash criminal actions by Durham police. It will serve no other purpose except to put an official stamp on lies.

Anonymous said...

Try as they might, the scum that inhabits the DPD and the elected offices of Durm can not escape the truths uncovered here and on the LieStoppers blog/board. A whitewash attempt by the W Committee will only bring more howling by the blogisphere!

Attempt a cover-up at your own peril, Durm.

Gary Packwood said...

KC said...How could any fair-minded committee not be horrified by such a record?
The Whichard Committee needs to be certain that its own proceedings follow proper procedure so as to limit outrage when the records of "The Whichard Committee" are subpoenaed by federal law enforcement officials around the Thanksgiving holidays.

Given the facts of the case, I suggest that Whichard rethink the appropriateness of convening a committee at all.

A conference with the North Carolina AG seems to be in order.

Anonymous said...

We often hear people throw around words like justice, fairness, rule of law, rights of the accused, etc.

It's very important for all of use to remember the politicians, newspapers, organizations that have ignored what KC wrote here.

And to recognize how phony and disingenuous they truly are at this time.

Anonymous said...

Whichard could be an honorable. We shall see. However, the deck has been stacked. Look at the makeup of the committee. What real authority does Whichard have? What about staff? Why isn't the attorney general of North Carolina, Mr. Cooper, conducting a criminal investigation of the corrupt Durham cops and the rogue prosecutor, who framed the lacrosse players? Instead, Cooper stands by and watches this charade go on.

Anonymous said...

great work as always KC

Anonymous said...

JLS says...,

1. Did Professor Johnson fail to mention the 4th of April photo session was done at the direcction of Nifong. I know this series is about the DPD, but the police generally take guidance from the DA as to what is a legal procedure, even if this one was against DPD policy.

2. Was Evans a filler on the prior session when they claimed the suspects were anyone named Adam, Brett or Breck and Matt? If so it seems he was a filler in the earlier correctly constituted photo arrays. How many photo arrays were show to Mangum prior to the flawed photo session and how many Matt, Adam and Brett/Brecks were there on the team?

TaterCon said...

Awright!! A cover up!! We'll be getting a "______gate" out of this yet!!

So what do we name it? "DPD-gate"?
"Durm-gate"? "Wonderland-gate"?

Help me here ... those aren't as catchy as I want 'em to be....

Anonymous said...

Let's sum it up plainly....Gottlieb, Himan, and Ripberger have lied under oath. These Durham police officers are dishonest. They need to be bagging groceries instead of endangering the public in Durham.

I see lots of angry letters from Durham residents printed in the opinion sections of the HS and NO. They are angry that people who don't live in Durham are badmouthing their town. What do they expect with public officials like these officers and a city manager who is in lock step with them?

The people of Durham need to demand these oficers answer for their crimes. Can they not see that if these cops are willing to lie and cover up in this high profile case that they have no chance of being treated fairly in other circumstances?

People of Durham, get it together and get the garbage out of your police force. The only way this will happen is if you demand it.

Anonymous said...

Let's remember that some people in the legal profession (Lane Williamson for example) have really stepped up and helped advance the truth in this case. Willis Whichard has an excellent reputation as an honest man.

People on this board (and fair minded people everywhere) demanded that we reserve judgment until the facts came in in this case. I think the Whichard committee deserves the same courtesy.

Let's wait until we see their work before we condemn them.

Anonymous said...

KC has it on the nose....the DPD is either completely incompetent or dishonest. I tend to believe it's a reach to think these guys didn't get together and come up with this "searching for suspects" excuse. The only conclusion to reach is that these guys are dishonest.

It's incredible to me that the press has such little interest in this aspect of the case. I remember when dirty cops used to be big news. Then again we have to remember....this is Durham.

Anonymous said...

What is important is not the Whichard Committee, but the depositions of these turkeys in the civil case. These miscreants are going to have to deal with sharks who smell blood. Once one of these turkeys pleads the Fifth, game over. They will have to be investigated criminally.

Anonymous said...

Willis Whichard?
I've never heard of him. Must be one of Durham's honest people.
When pigs fly!

Anonymous said...


How about "BullGate"?
Durham Bulls and the movie "Bull Durham" was filmed there. Re: this case, the word "Bull" is perfect.

Anonymous said...

KC, you are far too charitable. Gottlieb's memory report came almost four months afer the Mangum interview, not three.

The Mangum interview was on March 16 at her house. The memory man testified that he typed up his report entry for March 16 right before he turned in his homework, which happened around July 17. Get your facts straight!

Since when did it become legitimate to backdate notes?


Anonymous said...

This post devastates the DPD's absurd claims regarding the lineup. This link should be required reading for Whitchard. There is so much more that could be said to demonstrate the baseless nature of the DPD's claims, for example, the NTO identification of all players as suspects, the fact that they never followed up with a focused lineup, etc., it goes on and on. But this post really does crystalize the material well in a readily understandable way.

Brilliant! I say brilliant!

Floyd agrees with this.


Anonymous said...

According to many posters, everyone lied under oath except the SBI lady. Where are the perjury charges for the "liars"? It goes to show You can make this stuff up. In stead of fooling around with this stuff - get to the bottom of who at Duke gave out the Key Card information. Who had access to the Key Card information? This is the real mystery of the case. We know "Nifong hit the team and did it for votes and an election." Conspirators can not keep a secret this long if more than one is involved.

No justice, no peace said...

One would think that any student living in the dorm the DPD accessed or in the same data base that either the DPD breached or was provided access by Duke administrators could file a FERPA complaint. These events impact non-Lacrosse players as well.

I've often wondered how the DPD gained access to the secure dorms/rooms without warrants.

Based upon the post one could surmise that the DPD would do just about anything to make the case and that the Duke Admin would do anything to abet their effort.

If allowing access to the dorms, rooms, Internet accounts, and personal records doesn't violate ones privacy, what does?

It is clear that equal treatment under the law is meaningless in a PC world and especially on the Duke campus and in Durham.

I again am floored that this "crisis" of discrimination, rape, violence, etc. is NOT supported one iota by historical data. The Duke crime reporting indicated an average of three sexual assaults per year. One wonders how they define sexual assault. Smoking violations were reported an average of two times per year.

No justice, no peace said...

Come to think of it, my son made application for the '06-07. Though he was wait-listed (we dodged a bullet), one wonders if his/our personal information (ssn, addresses, essays, DOB, employment, etc.) doesn't remain in the Duke data base. Could our/my privacy have been breached?

I suspect the data is not encrpted and doubt that any authentication procedures protect the data.

No justice, no peace said...

"We like students who make intelligent and interesting mistakes, students who understand that only in risking failure do we become stronger, better, and smarter."

This is from the Duke Admissions web site Dean of Undergraduate Admissions and may explain why the admin. continues to support the AAAs and Gender the extent of making hugely stupid mistakes that are a PR disaster. Were any to "risk failure" like the Gang of 88 in the private sector they'd be fired. Of course they wouldn't be hired in the first place as they don't have useful skill sets to advance an organization or society.

No justice, no peace said...

What kind of safety does Duke have in place for students?

These are the answers on the Duke Admissions web site to the question, "What kind of safety does Duke have in place for students?

Notice that DPD is NOT listed at all and the Duke Univ. Police is listed seventh, out of eight, two slots behind the multi-cultural center and just ahead of transportation.

The #1 safety response according to Duke... the Academic Resource Center. A curious ordering problem in such a misogynic, racist, and violent environment, one would think.

How in the hell are they going to help cure “Social Disaster” so proudly pronounced as factual by the Gang of 88 frauds/liars. By the way I never noticed that these English/Literature experts asked, “What does a social disaster sound like?” “Sound like”; a very interesting choice of words coming from Literature/English PhDs with Departmental support...

One begins to understand why truth-in-advertising, fraud, and transparency laws get enacted.

Anonymous said...

What should have been the extent of media reporting of the LAX party (7/10/7 Newsstar)...

"Woman falsely accuses men of rape

Suzanne M. Young, 38, 200 Gordon Ave., Monroe, was arrested Monday and charged with a filing a false report after she told deputies two men tried to rape her and took $5 from her pocket in the College Point area of western Ouachita Parish.

Deputies talked with both men and realized Young was lying. They questioned her again, and she told deputies the two men had given her a ride and she paid them $5, but wanted her money back, the report stated.

Young was booked into Ouachita Correctional Center. Bond had not been set late Monday."

No justice, no peace said...

This is the Duke Admissions link to questions regarding the Duke Lacrosse case.

Duke Report, un-$%@$% believable

This claims that Dean Sue Wasiolek, Larry Moneta, and Richard Brodhead had a "gap in communications that is extraordinary". What was extraordinary? That is was a full ten days from the initial incident coming to their collective attention to determine that CGM was black and that the situation had a race element.

This is similar to the DPD situation. If they didn't understand the ramifications they should be fired for incompetence. If they did and withheld the information, they should be fired for incompetence.

Either there is a “social disaster” or there is not. If so, they should be fired for not remedying the harm to the students. If not, they should be fired for abetting the lies/fraud from the Gang of 88.

Durham in Wonderland is incomplete; there must be room for Duke in Wonderland...

Anonymous said...

The great thing about our system of justice is that you don't have to talk directly to cops. Nor should you ever talk to one if you're detained. People will tell you that lawyering-up pisses cops off - and that's okay. Their culture is amoral. Most are poorly trained and incompetent. They lie without compunction. They're not interested in guilt or innocence - only looking good, keeping their jobs and moving stuff off their plate as effortlessly as possible. Their viewpoint is that the world is made up of cops and assholes.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Dwilkers said...

Gottlieb ran the array, told Mangum that she would only see people that the police believed attended the party, and videotaped the proceeding. The whole affair all but invited the accuser, after two failed lineups following procedure, to pick three people.

I'm no fan of CGM, but I'd like to point out that rather than simply inviting an identification the procedure being conducted this way puts enormous pressure on the witness to identify someone. The way the police and Nifong handled the case even if CGM had gotten cold feet and wanted to start crawfishing she was under repeated, extreme pressure from Nifong and the police to modify her story to fit, change her descriptions and continue with her farce.

On of the things that makes the DPD's behavior so odious is that due to the way they rabidly pursued the case - arresting an alibi witness, coaching CGM, leaking to the press, stating that the 'attackers were in the lineup - all create pressure on CGM to toe the line.

I realize she made the first accusation, but even if she'd had a change of heart they had her set up so she had to continue with the farce and they made damn sure she knew that fact.

All of course in pursuit of their agenda to take down the rich boys in their midst to demonstrate their absolute power and ability to dominate and do as they pleased - to inspire fear in the populace, fear of the police and DA. This need to dominate and demonstrate that they could do as they pleased is, I submit, a significant part of what drove DPD.

I say that not in defense of CGM but to point out the pervasive, insidious nature of what they were doing. There's more here than meets the immediate outraged eye.

Haskell said...

no justice, no peace 5:52

Unbelievable is right. I hope all will read the link provided. Add more fools (like G88) based on qualifications of sex (excuse me gender), race, or talent (bang that pot in rhythm please) can only make things worse since most do not have a clue to start with.

anonymous 6:18

You could say Duke Administrators instead of cops and be just as correct.

scott said...

How could any fair-minded committee not be horrified by such a record?

Because said committee is located in Durham.

Two guys that have slipped under the radar in the overall discussion of the case are Captain Lamb and Lieutenant Ripberger. These two guys, while not doing the day to day dirty deeds like Gottlieb, Himan, and Wilson, completely abdicated their supervisory responsibilities in allowing all the procedure and due process violations committed by the 3 stooges. Lamb and Ripberger have no business being in supervisory positions in any police force that claims to be law abiding. If not outright fired for their dereliction of duty, they should be busted back to patrolman status and assigned to traffic control.

mac said...


Maybe "Nifongate?"
So that Gottleib could say:

"Nifong ate my notes?"

mac said...

Reserve judgement?

OK. Just like the feds reserved judgement in Surry, Virginia:
when local prosecutor Poindexter let a search warrant run out
on Michael Vick's dog-pound - er, home - the feds swooped in
with stunning speed.

When this committee is finished?
Expect a hungry federal prosecutor is perched nearby,
waiting to make a notch on his belt.

Yeah, the committee danged-good-'n-well better get it right.

mac said...

5:36 am
Too bad there wasn't a SANE Nurse to corroborate her story! (LOL)

mac said...

First I heard of that; I'd only heard "Brett."
(Maybe that's why John Edwards hasn't
been heard from in this case.)

Anonymous said...

KC, there you go persecuting good Christians again! It would have done these rich boys some good to spend a few years in the pokey. It is called character building.

mac said...

"Digging holes builds character"
(Mr. Sir, "Holes.")

With all the holes that the DPD et al
have dug for themselves in this case,
you'd have thought they'd have
built lots of character by now.

bill anderson said...

To be honest, I don't think the police were setting up the lineup in order to place pressure on CGM. Instead, I believe that the fix already was in, and Gottlieb and company already knew who would be picked.

There is no way that she simply picked people at random. Instead, I think that Nifong and the police decided beforehand who they would try to charge, and then rigged the process to pick them. Nifong was hellbent on indicting David Evans, in part because he was Joe Cheshire's client. (Cheshire said this after the bar hearing was over, and I think he understands Nifong's MO.)

Unfortunately for Nifong, after decided that Reade Seligmann would be one of the ones indicted, Nifong then found out about Reade's alibi and panicked. That led to the arrest of Elmostafa.

Again, I think this case is much more involved than most people think. That is one reason that Durham is so desperate to put a lid on this, and why the city stacked the Whichard committee.

Anonymous said...

What is Mikey doing with his time these days?

mac said...


Today's post is excellent.
The point you made regarding Sgt. Shelton
and the internal investigation they conducted against him is really,
really important: it illustrates a level of conspiracy that's a bit more
indelible than Gottleib's infamous blackboard.
(Oh, yeah: "alleged" conspiracy.)

RICO statutes should be forthcoming:
if they don't apply here, they don't apply anywhere.

mac said...

Where is Sgt. Shelton these days, anyway?
I bet he has a shiny backside from all the kissin'-up
he's likely to be getting from the rest of the DPD.

He should be sequestered from the rest of those morons.

Anonymous said...

So why would the DPD do all this to help Nifong win an election? What was in it for them?

Brant Jones

Anonymous said...

KC, insightful as always. I think the consideration for allowing the committee to go through their paces applies here. Enough people outside of Durham are watching that if it goes too far voices will be heard, though not much will happen if that is how it goes.

As I see it, it is a local problem that effects you if you go to Duke. Students:beware of the local authority, your teachers and Administrators at Duke. The community needs you for economic reasons and hates you for being able to be at Duke. I am relieved for the three families and their sons that they don't have to stay. You can't change the culture you can only hope you get someone honest when you need them. It being probable that there are other AA in jail or being tried and innocent, I still can't believe that more AA voices haven't come out in support of these three young men. I would think that this is an important issue in Durham and they should be outraged at the way their police department , judges and Mr. Nifong have acted. Since they clearly aren't then I say, beware and stay clear of the system. The more sun the better in most cases, if Durham residents as per mentioned in one post do not like outsiders watching, that should be posted on the websites for college reviews, ie. the US News and World yearly rating. It tells you what you need to know if you are looking for schools. Buyer beware

Anonymous said...

Durham and Duke University and its faculty and administration and its president and the Durham Police Department have become a metaphor for the corruption of the North Carolina legal system. "We don't need no stinkin' law."

mac said...

8:14 Brant Jones

Bill Anderson 8:02 has subtlely pointed to a theory.
It's called a "shakedown," I believe.

That's yet to be proven...perhaps it will come up
when RICO statutes are thrown into
the mix, and serious time in the federal prison is a real threat?

mac said...

Considering the misuse of the students' cards
(see yesterdays' posts) the whole
thing looks like "1984."

Buyer beware, indeed.

Hope KC will get to the card issue.

Anonymous said...

The NAACP needs to watch this very carefully. This is how its done boys, but you don't care as long as its done to someone else, right?

mac said...

re: my 8:18

See Michael 10:27 in yesterday's posts.

Anonymous said...

I don't think the DPD ever thought it would get caught. They had never been up against attorneys like the LAX players, tho.

Thanks to NJNP for the link, amazing, Duke seemed more concerned that she was black than the crime of rape. The Duke admin still tries to label the LAX team as hooligans. Amazing!

Anonymous said...

Mac> thanks for the see michael 10:27. As the mom of a lax player in college now, not in the south, I have been transfixed by the enormity of what Duke allowed to happen. It is hard to escape the likelihood that there response in real time was motivated by the individual beliefs of said admin. that the boys were guilty without proof or due process. You would have to brain dead at this point to not see the failure of leadership. But it seems as per what I learn reading this blog that Duke as an institution and Durham as a community is not a safe place to be for students. It may be pretty, pricey, elite etc. but so many civil rights have been violated that is blows the mind. It should be mandatory reading by parents of upcoming juniors and seniors. Of course, the strong alum and past history of Duke will carry it through this mess, there stats don't change. I believe they will loose some good candidates whose parents care about where there children spend 4 years, others won't care because the name still has weight.

Anonymous said...

didn't proof read well>
there response should be their response and ditto for there children also their children

Anonymous said...

To 1:45

You must remember that we now live in different times. The time you speak of was well before political correctness trumped truth and honesty.
One could wonder why the PC crowd is not outraged over the invasion of federally protected privacy rights. At the very minimum, EVERY student in Evans dorm has a legitimate complaint to file against Duke and possibly DPD and DA. ACLU----why do you remain silent? If the civil liberties of these students have not been violated, then pray tell, who has had their civil liberties violated. Like the NAACP, you have abandoned your ideals in order to join the PC crowd and advance your anti-Caucasian, anti-male, anti-hetero agenda. Alas, fairness, honesty, truth, and justice are no longer important to your organization either.

Bull-gate! Great idea. How about Hooligan-gate? Liefong began this fiasco by calling the LAX players hooligans and it turns out that the real hooligans were in the DA's office, DPD, and Duke administration and faculty. What a 180!!

gak said...

To Tatercon @ 1:18am

How about LacrosseGate

Just a thought

Ralph Phelan said...

"amazing, Duke seemed more concerned that she was black than the crime of rape."

As we have seen, this concern was completely rational from a PR point of view. If there *had* been a rape but the victim was white or the perpatrators black, would it have become a national sensation?

To the extent that reflects people's real concerns we've got a problem. To the extent it reflects the media's obsessions there's something we can do - *any* time Jackson or Sharpton or the NAACP get mentioned in *any* news story, loudly call "bullshit" and refer to this case. Let's give reporters an incentive to take them and those like them out of their Rolodexes.

Ralph Phelan said...

"How could any fair-minded committee not be horrified by such a record?"

And how is this question relevant to anything that happens in North Carolina?

mac said...

Perhaps if the "victim" was white,
there never would have been a Duke response at all -
(judging from the findings at the link NJNP provided.)

That's another element that hasn't
been looked into:
that the DPD and Nifong has (theoretically)
committed a racial hate-crime,
aided and abetted by Duke
and it's many
representatives (potbangers, the 88 et al,)
who've used racially-charged,
inflammatory statements to define the case
against the young men.

Sort of like another day, another time:
a crowd with pitchforks, assembled and screaming:
"Hang the N!"

Only in this case, it was:
(The holder of that sign, BTW, may have committed a racial hate crime.)

The actions against the students have seemingly risen to the level of criminal
behavior, and race was a contributing factor in the (alleged) criminal acts =
Racial Hate Crime.

Anonymous said...

What Duke classes require reading American Psycho? How can email be tampered with? The Duke team members provided their passwords to the police in the investigation. Is there suggestion that the investigators tampered with the email re cutting off their skin?

I am reading IT'S NOT ABOUT THE TRUTH -- still lots of fascinating behind the scenes tidbits, even after reading this blog.

Anonymous said...

Is Ripberger a Communist?

Ralph Phelan said...

"Racial Hate Crime"

Yeah but they're white, so you can forget about that ever being pursued. Some are more equal than others.

mac said...

anon 8:47

If there's a federal investigation,
you'll see some house-cleaning -
at Duke as well as in the City of

If they can take themselves away from Mike Vick's doghouse long enough...

Anonymous said...

From the Duke Website:

What is it that sets Duke apart from other selective universities? To some, it’s the unparalleled research facilities and the outstanding athletics programs; to others, it’s the devoted faculty and the incredible range of academic programs and extracurricular opportunities. What makes Duke unique is, of course, all of these things—but there’s something else. It’s the distinct and pervasive sense of school spirit that's evident to anyone who sets foot on campus—it’s hard to explain, but once you’re here, you’ll know what we’re talking about. Because there is just no place like Duke.

The advantages of a Duke education go far beyond impressive statistics and an outstanding reputation. Many of our innovative programs, academic resources, and facilities are unparalleled—and completely unlike those found anywhere else in the world. We take pride in creating distinctive opportunities for our students that help instill in them a love of lifelong learning and appreciation for the obligations and rewards of citizenship.

At Duke, we offer an incomparable undergraduate experience, and we put a world of possibilities at our students' fingertips.

I couldn't have said it any better. Duke said it for me!

mac said...

Rich Phelan 9am

Maybe. But then, the local prosecutor (Poindexter) in the Mike Vick doghouse case is black,
and so is Vick...and the prosecutor is charging "racism"
because the feds came in.

Nope. I think this will end up in the feds hands, depending upon the outcome of this committee's findings.

mac said...

The first thing the extreme left is gonna do,
if they should get their way,
is to shut down the blogs.

The dictatorship of the proletariat, and all that.

hman said...

These last few postings have helped bring into focus just how motivated Gottleib must have been to frame these guys. A question will always be about his motivation to take such a radical approach to this high profile case.
Then I think, "What did he really feel inside when busting up a Lax or other jock parties? Was it righteous anger at the horror of under-aged drinking? Was it prim dis-approval someone pissing of pissing off the porch?
Or was it bone deep sexual jealosy? Gottleib is a short, puggy guy with (probably) a fat wife. And here are these taller, stronger young guys cavorting with better looking girls than ever smiled at him in his whole life. That sort of feeling trumps every other sort of feeling, in my readings of history of our species. It has been a high ranking reason for murder since we lived in caves..

Anonymous said...

To 9:06 > That was before they allowed the civil rights of three of their students to be violated on several levels.
It won't be close to what it aspires to until the Board of Trustees gets involved with firng some people. It should hurt to see such an investment in the future of your child be so tarnished.

Do you really believe what happened to the three former students came anywhere close to the description shared? It could just as easily have been your own and your family's year and a half of hell, in no small part because of the actions of Duke administrators and professors. Marketing does not trump truth.

inman said...

Good morning.

Regarding an appropriate moniker for this about this....

If only the DPD had worn white hoods, could have been identified as a simple

LaCrosse Burning

inman said...

A question to be included in an upper level Duke Women's Studies/Philosophy course this fall:

If Gottlieb = Andy Taylor

& Himan = Barney Fife,

Does Nifong = Gomer, or
Does Nifong = Otis?

Anonymous said...

I suggest LAX-Gate (analagous to the airport?).

Also, I agree that who/how the entry cards were provided is important to further understanding the subjigation of due process to race/sex/PC/class-envy agendas at Duke.

Regarding the Whichard Committee, their credibility is ALREADY tainted - not by pre-judgement - but by the makeup of the committee.

Thanks again, KC - There appears to be more layers of this onion that continue to need to be peeled.


Anonymous said...

I think 6:25 has it right. CGM was pressured. These DPD/DA people are too lazy and incompetent to organize a conspiracy. At the same time they are rewarded for being "team players" not for independent all bureaucrats.

CGM who is short on long-term planning, is naive and poorly educated comes up with the first story she thinks of (or is suggested to her). Why? She thinks the rape claim will turn her into a victim and thus override any other issues that the justice system has with her.

Once "the system" is running with her rape story she is under tremendous pressure to stay with the program...pressure from the cops, Nifong, 88ers, press, Duke University, NAACP, local community. This victim thing is really working for her. Lots of sympathy. She's a hometown hero!

Factor in that she is naive and addicted to the instant gratification of victimhood. She doesn't imagine the logical progression this case will. She doesn't have the education or analytical skills to think through what will hapen when the lack of physical evidence and her various versions of the story are revealed to the world. She doesn't care if the case wins or looses because she has the home boys who will support her and it's easier to stay with the program than to recant.

Both CGM and many of he "responsible" adults took the path of least resistance.

Gary Packwood said...

You might try DukeDevilGate!

Authors across the country began to imagine the next new best seller when it was revealed that Duke voluntarily gave private information about their students to the Durham Police Department.

This is the stuff that movies are made of.

praying4anonymity said...


Is there any possibility that my files at Duke coulda been compromised? I'm not sure my standing in the community and my career could take that hit ...

Anonymous said...

A Federal investigation (with the power of criminal charges) of the Durham justice system, including foremost now the DPD, is the only way to get at the real truth in this case (and other cases in Durham of DPD criminal misconduct). If the truth is not found, the potential for injustice and "railroading" in Durham will continue to thrive. DPD players in this fiasco and in other criminal misconduct instances against Durham citizens and Duke students, need to be confronted with "plea bargain" options. The "plea bargain" approach appears necessary to get their attention....otherwise they will just keep playing the game, lie when convenient, and use the obfuscation card to the fullest extent. How many innocent people are in prison or jail, or have a criminal record, because of the Durham Justice System?

Until the Durham justice system is cleaned out, parents of current and potential Duke students should think long and hard about sending their kid to Duke. The students should think long and hard about this too. Duke should clearly state their policy with regard to "accused" they support them or do they leave them hanging out there on their own (and most would argue based on this case, contribute to the ease of false and malicious prosecution)? Parents and students need to know this policy so they can make informed decisions in their school selection process.

Ralph Phelan said...

9:54 has the best name suggestion so far: the Duke LaCrosse Burning! (And those guys did get burned pretty bad.)

Imagine how the 88, NAACP, etc. will feel about being implicitly equated with the KKK. Delicious!

Ralph Phelan said...

"Duke should clearly state their policy with regard to "accused" they support them or do they leave them hanging out there on their own..."

It depends on their skin color.

mac said...

I second Phelan's nomination of the Hoax to be named as 9:54 suggested.

mac said...

Inman was the author, BTW,

Anonymous said...

* Crystal Gate *

Anonymous said...

The Duke policy with regard to "accused" students should be clearly stated on each tuition bill.

Anonymous said...

For those who do not pay tuition, the Duke policy relative to "accused" students should appear with their grades.

Anonymous said...

I frankly don't see what the Whichard investigation has left to do. KC had done it all, and continues to expose every detail. What could his group ever hope to uncover or analyze better than this? All they have to do is put a cover letter on his writings, say "mistakes were made..." and everyone goes away happy. To think anyone is going to come in from the Feds and prosecute anyone is a waste of time. KC will continue to be brilliant, Whichard will not add anything to the conversation, and every in Durham/DPD will go on as usual.

Anonymous said...

It seems as though the PD, Duke U, Mangum, the press, and the blacks in Durham each played a part in furthering the unjust prosecution of the Duke 3, though not a conspiracy.

I wonder if the nurse at the Durham Center Access where Sgt. Sheldon took Mangum had asked the question differently, if this would have happened.

Mangum did not start out accusing the students of rape. She and her partner were furious of the way they had been treated. They did want the guys to get in trouble, but I don't think the accusation of rape was premeditated.

The first nurse that talked to her, asked "Have you been raped?" Mangum's previous false acccusation had been some 10 years before, but maybe she started to remember how differently she was treated when thought of as a victim. This had to be better. The first guys were black--these guys were white.

Then she was taken to the Med Center, and she changed her story, but she had to have felt the "love" she got when those around her thought a bunch of rich white guys had done this to her. Why not go with the hoax?

I guess she is not a CSI fan. She certainly would not have made such stupid statements. But I'm sure she saw that she did not have to do much, there were plenty of people there willing to carry the water for her.

So back to my first point. Shouldn't a questioner (nurse) ask open-ended questions--What happened? Instead of asking "Were you raped?"

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Anonymous said...

Don't worry, K.C. The Whichard Committee will find a way to swallow this piece of crap just as it seems everyone else in the DPD and prosecutor's office did. Keep in mind that when one is engaged in the act of framing innocent people, anything will do.

Furthermore, the judges (with the possible exception of Osmond Smith) seemed to be in on the scam, too. I think we have to understand that Durham is a place that decent people want to avoid. The cops and judges are a bunch of liars and crooks, and the voters apparently want liars and crooks to represent them.
Jul 11, 2007 12:14:00 AM

*****Great Observation 12.14, It would also possibly describe 99% of the voting population of Cesspool "NO JUSTICE" Durham!!

mac said...

But then, KC has provided a template for Whichard.
If they don't follow it - at least to some reasonable extent - they
do so at their own peril.

Know what? You never know if the feds have already been wiretapping
the DPD, CGM, Nifong et al; an investigation may already be well-underway.

However...KC does still work his wonders, and it will be less of a surprise
to all DIW readers when the proverbial $#!+ hits the fan.

Anonymous said...

I still want to know whom in the DPD sent the infamous email committing fraud pretending to be a lacrosse player who was gong to tell all about the supposed attack. I believe breaking and entering their dorm room to send that email is also a crime. The pressure was on the DPD to find someone to nail. In their raid at night slipping into the dorms without warrants someone sent that email. Watergate they got caught breaking and entering planting bugs. The DPD should be held accountable for breaking and entering planting false emails on someone else's computer. The level of corruption in the DPD is palpable. Who sent it? Unless they used gloves their should be fingerprints or DNA to find out. Unless of course they destroyed the evidemce like they did with all the taperecordings and dispatch messages from the original call from Krugers. Where is the penalty for destroying evidence against court orders to preserve?

Anonymous said...

JLS says....

re: 10:50

There is a lot we don't know about this case yet. And you have stumbled on one. That is what happened at Durham Access. Among the possibilities are:

1. Mangum went into the withdrawal act like when she hid under the table prior to stealing the cab.

2. The Nurse at Durham Access knew of Mangum and asked her about rape to dump her on someone else.

3. Mangum's state of undress AS SHE SHOWED UP TO THE PARTY except for one shoe led the Nurse to ask her about rape.

Where you are wrong is that the women wanted to cause trouble for the lacrosse team members. Pittman aka Roberts wanted rid of Mangum. Mangum wanted to stay out of involuntary commitment. The lacrosse team members were by standers. They happened to be the last gig Mangum had before she neeeded to accuse someone of rape to avoid involuntary commitment.

AMac said...

There is a gap between the way that the case is seen by people who get their news from mainstream media sources, and those who follow the case via web-logs such as D-i-W.

That gap is yawning wider.

Best I can tell, newspapers and TV present the lacrosse case as pretty-well wrapped up. Story lines range from "Rogue DA forced from office" to "Accused students vindicated, settle with Duke" to "Something Happened, though not rape."

The system worked, more or less, and it's time to Move Forward.

Not quite the same as the perspective that Prof. Johnson and other pajama-clad scribblers have to offer.

You might think that Professional Investigative Journalists would be in hog heaven, with shocker after shocker hitting the pages of D-i-W, Liestoppers, J-in-C, and other blogs. As limited in scope as they were, the depostions from Nifong's disbarment proceedings keep serving as sources that point to yet-worse misconduct on the part of the Durham Police, the Duke Police, the DA's office, City Government, nurses, and the Duke Administration. Adding to what's already known about the craven performance of much of Duke's faculty, the Potbangers, local newspapers, civil rights organizations, and national media.

Do a hoax, a frame, misconduct, abuse of authority, derliction, incompetence, and a series of far-flung coverups constitute a story worth telling?

Not if you play in the same league as Duff Wilson's employer, I guess.

Nope. Nothing to see here.

mac said...

KC should name his book:
All the President's Accomplices

Anonymous said...

to 11;00

My point that the 2 wanted to cause trouble was taken right from the AG's report:

"After the accusing witness was placed in “Nikki’s” car, “Nikki” yelled a sexually and racially based comment at a group of party attendees standing across the street near the wall to East Campus at the university. One or more of the party responded with racial epithets. After this exchange, “Nikki” drove away with the accusing witness in her car. At approximately 12:53 a.m., “Nikki” called 911 to report that a group of white men were yelling racial comments at passersby outside of North Buchanan Boulevard."

Mangum and "Nikki" were mad, at least "Nikki" was, and so called 911. She was not calling becasue she was at risk--she was mad at them and knowing how often the race card works, she did her deed.

Anonymous said...

To 11:30: You are right. You would think an investigative journatlist would want to dig their teeth into this one. To report the truth as ugly as it is and lay it out to bare for all to sse. This case is far from over. More and more information comes out each day with the depositions, the lies and coverups. It is not about the non-rape, but about the corruption and the public's acceptance of it. You can't move on until the cancer is removed.

Anonymous said...

Praise the Lord for Linwood Wilson, who when he figured out what Nifong was up to, exposed it to the NC Bar.

Anonymous said...

These families ought to be ashamed of themselves. They promised to hound Nifong every day for the rest of his life. They are lying down on the job. They have not done anything since the Bar hearing.

Anonymous said...

"The Ripberger/Gottlieb/Himan thesis leaves two and only two options for any fair-minded investigative committee: either the DPD is full of incompetent people, including high up the chain of command; or the department knew exactly what it was doing in constructing a procedurally flawed lineup, and concocted the “search for witnesses” story as a cover. (Both explanations are also possible.)"

Put me down in the both camp. They tried to frame them and they are incompetent.

wayne fontes said...

Anonymous said...

Is Ripberger a Communist?

Jul 11, 2007 8:59:00 AM

Actually Ripberger is a die hard Republican who supports Ron Paul. That influence can be seen in this quote Ripberger made to the Indy Weekly "since the constitution doesn't explicitly guarantee the right to fillers in a line-up the Duke defendants civil rights weren't violated". In his personal time Ripberger likes to play Dungeon and Dragons, research the melting point of steel and vote in online polls.

Anonymous said...

die-hard Republicans do not support Ron Paul - he's very left

Anonymous said...

Perhaps, Ripberger is not as bad as feared.

Anonymous said...

I can't stand to hear one more white person whining that white people are never seen as victims of race-based hate crimes. We have to DEMAND it. You can't just whine and moan and feel sorry for yourself. This is the worst case of violated Civil Rights that I have ever seen in 40 years and those boys should be demanding a Federal investigation--and once that is over they should be suing every halfwit talking head that branded them guilty over the past year. White people need to stop being so passive and mamby pamby about everything. Just the fact that these two lowlife strippers were able to generate mass hysteria simply because one neighbor claimed to have heard a racial epithet shows how stacked the deck has become against white people.The strippers started the racial name-calling but not one person in the media ever even speculated that the blacks in this situation may have started it. The whites were immediately the villains.

Crystal Magnum should be in jail for instigating this hate crime. The Lacrosse players should be demanding that. How often do white males get a free pass because they had "a troubled past?" Never. Ever.


Anonymous said...

Is it possible that Crystal is related to Nifong?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Is it possible that Crystal is related to Nifong?

Did anyone ever compare the many specimens of male DNA in and around her against his? That might be a more likely explanation.

Anonymous said...

He has had prostate surgery, so he might not have been able to do her any good.

mac said...

Maybe sine KC is doing a good imitation of Bob Woodward -
(complimentary; no offense intended:)

"All the President's Henchmen?"

Anonymous said...

I think it is more likely that he is the father of her latest child. Did they do a paternity test on him?

Ralph Phelan said...

"Did they do a paternity test on him?"

How much do those cost, and how can we get a DNA sample from Nifong? We'd also want to compare him to the "unidentified males." Bell, Baker, Lamb, Brodhead and Steel should be checked too.

Anonymous said...

I believe there are police chiefs on the Whichard fact finding commision. If that is true, you will never get the truth out of it. What you see is this case is true no matter where you are, Police look out for police. That is the true "blue wall of silence" They will protect their own. Does not matter what law they break, they will cover it up. So the DPD is not uncommon as far as covering up what has happened.

Anonymous said...

Re Amac,

The mainstream media is too busy finding missing pretty middle-class white women, following Paris and the latest car-chase, bus crash and other non-news event that requires no journalist skills.


inman said...

I just used KC's link to the December motion to suppress. And I am absolutely flabbergasted. And I quote:

"...the accuser had never been shown a picture of Colin Finnerty, presumably because he did not match any of [CMG's] descriptions."

Now I am having an out-of-body experience.

(1) His name wasn't Brett, Matt or Adam.

(2) CMG did not identify him by picture and, according to the motion, HAD NEVER EVEN BEEN SHOWN ONE.

(3) Finally, he didn't match the description.


OK--- I have a new theory. This surely was a case involving incomptence. It certainly smells of conspiracy. But, given this little nugget it may, in fact, go beyond conspiracy to a plan for an outright theft, with someone (or ones in DPD) thinking that they could reap part of a settlement.

Colin Finnerty's dad is a very successful Wall Street type. (Google "Kevin Finnerty" and "Fortress Investment" to view his background.) His background included being the head of the mortgage-backed securities group at Bear Stearns -- a position that could pay anywhere from, say, $5 million to $25 million a year, depending on profitability. Fact: A single SEC form 4 filing shows that K. Finnerty owns $5 million of a single investment. One can postulate that he has more than that single investment -- and, in fact, if he is like most other Wall Street Managing Directors with any tenure ... his net worth would be in the -- say $20 million to $500 million range -- just a guess and a wide range but the order of magnitude is probably right. ( I did no research beyond the single Form 4. There may be other data in the public domain.)

So, suppose a group (including some within the DPD and perhaps ole Mike himself) decide to pull off a very clever "ransom" where the payoff goes to someone with "a past" and who will gladly share the payoff to avoid going to prison -- on trumped up charges, but in Durham that wouldn't matter. They identify what is likely to be 1 very deep pocket and 2 other potentially deep pockets. The stage is set:

But, the payoff didn't happen and the conspirators start doing things to protect themselves. And further, none of them can come forward because by doing so would only mitigate a prison term -- it wouldn't eliminate it. And these boys surely don't to do any hard time in a system rife with previous miscarriages of justice.

Who could play Nifong -- maybe Dustin Hoffman or maybe Danny Devito --- hmmmm.

Copyright 2007

Anonymous said...

to BobC 11:53

You are right about no free ride. The LA Times did a survey during the Paris Hilton fiasco. Their findings were that others have usually only served 4 days instead of her 22.

A similar conclusion by another publication that the same happened to Matha Stewart.

Many in the MSM and public want to punish individuals who are white, rich, male, priviledged, or successful.

Paris is certainly a bimbo, but she is not resposible for the slave trade of blacks, or the fact that California is part of the US, but she must be punished. She's rich.

Unitl we return to the premise that lady justice is blind, people will be Nifonged base on their race, color, etc.

inman said...

In my prior post, I should have noted that Wall Street bankers generally have a very strong work ethic and work very long hours.

Anonymous said...

What was unique about these young men would have been considered normal in previous time periods. Each knew who his father was. Each came from an intact family. Each had a family that would fight. The family with the least money spent the most proportionately to protect their child from this claptrap put upon disaster of a fraud. They were Yankees separated from the "good" folks of Durham. They were white, hetrosexual males from traditional families seemingly hated by the angry sexist/rascist studies at Duke. The fraud and hypocrisy and dishonesty of the whole rotten group in power in Durham is disgusting. The power structure at Duke and Durham do not seem to have the will or the energy to clean themselve of the horror that caused this disaster.

Anonymous said...

Inman 1:38 PM

"We don't need no 'stinkin'' pictures." As it would seem, "We don't need no 'stinkin' nothing." It's like a fight. Don't let them get you too upset. Lets keep the prssure on and make the bastards reform themselves. No reform, no peace.

mac said...

Does this remind anyone of the days of Huey Long?

Somewhere in all this - well above Nifong's level - there may be a Huey Long.

mac said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

JLS says....,

re: anon 11:17

I don't really care where you jump off for your unwarranted conclusion that Mangum was trying to cause these player problems. I have news for you strippers/hookers dont exchange phone numbers and e-mail addresses with their Johns. THEY DON'T LIKE THEM.

There may well have been some bad blood at 12:30 am. But quickly Robert aka Pittman had the problem of dumping Mangum. And by the time Mangum got to Durham Access at 2 or 3 am, she was not worried about any name calling, she was worrried about losing her freedom.

Anonymous said...

RE 3;52

I stand by my opinion. You may have yours.

My final post on this.

Anonymous said...

To 11:28: The families are not lying down on the job. They will get every pound of flesh that is due and then some. Don't think for a minute their pain has magically gone away. The after effects are just as damaging. They are all strong people with courage to move foward but will not let the past go until criminal justice is metted out for all who played a role in the hoax. That includes the talking heads who slandered their sons on national television, journalists who made up lies, NY Times for one, the DPD and the list goes on. It will take time, but it is not forgotten and never forgiven. Let the attorneys work behind the scenes and do what they do best. The circus has just begun.

Anonymous said...

I am not a fan of Paris Hilton but this gal has been on a TV show for five years, gets paid lots to attend opening of clubs, has TV commeriacal and a best selling book. She is making her own dough and quite successfully - not a bimbo in my estimation,

Gary Packwood said...

inman 1:38 said...

...I just used KC's link to the December motion to suppress. And I am absolutely flabbergasted.
...OK--- I have a new theory. This surely was a case involving incompetence. It certainly smells of conspiracy. But, given this little nugget it may, in fact, go beyond conspiracy to a plan for an outright theft, with someone (or ones in DPD) thinking that they could reap part of a settlement.
Welcome from those of us who have always believed your theory.

Just make a listing of groups in Durham and at Duke who would have benefited from taking down a white male sports team or fraternity.

I believe that they were all working together.

I suggest you go to the front page of this Blog and type in the search phrase in the search window ...ZIP CODE and read what has been learned.

Gary Packwood said...

Anonymous 5:06 said...

...The families are not lying down on the job. They will get every pound of flesh that is due and then some. Don't think for a minute their pain has magically gone away. The after effects are just as damaging. They are all strong people with courage to move forward but will not let the past go until criminal justice is metted out for all who played a role in the hoax. That includes the talking heads who slandered their sons on national television, journalists who made up lies, NY Times for one, the DPD and the list goes on. It will take time, but it is not forgotten and never forgiven. Let the attorneys work behind the scenes and do what they do best. The circus has just begun.
Good thoughts and great advise. Thank You

I can only hope that the strategy includes a strong effort to help insure that this does not happen again at Duke or any other institution of higher education.

At least once a day I wonder if another groups of kids are going to be harmed at Duke. The actors are still there; still full of blame and hate and willing to make up their own facts about Duke and the students.

Anonymous said...

Who cares about Duke - except the students and alumni - neither of which are showing any concern for the school. Kids go to the best school they can get into - and if it is Duke - they will go.

Anonymous said...

8:56 said "Is there suggestion that the investigators tampered with the email re cutting off their skin?"

To my knowledge Ryan McFadyen has acknowledged writing that e-mail and has not suggested that it was tampered with. The e-mail that has yet to be explained at all is the "sting" e-mail which purports to be from one of the lacrosse players (and this time, the player it's attributed to does firmly deny writing it) claiming that he can't go along with the stonewalling anymore and he's going to come clean and going to implicate those he knows.

Of course, as we now know, there was no stonewalling and no crime and so the only question is who had the cute idea of forging this e-mail, thinking that surely all it would take to break the "wall of silence" is for the "hooligans" to think that one of their own was selling them out. The police themselves? A potbanger? Many possibilities...

Anonymous said...

It was obvious to those of us who have raised boys - this was a boy joke from a young adult,

mac said...

The "sting" email is something that is patently illegal, as it's in the category of manufacturing
evidence, fraud, intentionally misrepresenting one's self through the mail, internet etc.

For those who still can't get their minds around conspiracy,
this ought to be enough - (if it's not enough, they probably believe
we faked landing on the moon, and can't be helped.)

Anonymous said...

to 11:28. Until you have walked in their shoes you should decline criticism of what the families should and shouldn't do,unless you want to pay the legal fees going forward. It isn't their job to correct every defect at Duke and Durham. There are alot of good people in both places. It's not a perfect world and we know now it is less so in durham and duke, but the decent people in the system are trying to make it work. Time for you to move on just like everyone else is.

Anonymous said...

Sorry Mac - accusse comes from the removal of my brain tumor. Who cares - is this a spelling bee"

Bob Wilson said...

To those who doubt Bill Whichard will come through: Anyone who knows him will tell you that he is a straight arrow. He isn't part of the Only in Durham crowd personified by Patrick Baker, Mike Nifong and their cast of supporting players. Give Whichard a fair chance. I think you'll be pleased.

mac said...

Bob Wilson,

Will Wichard address the issue of the $400,000 bail?

Just wondering...