Saturday, December 16, 2006

Nifong and the Naïf

Perhaps the quality of the defense bar in Burlington, North Carolina, is unusually low. It appeared yesterday as if DNA Security head Brian Meehan had never before faced a challenging cross-examination: over a 90-minute period, he withered under questioning from Brad Bannon and Jim Cooney.

Mike Nifong gambled and lost: confronting a defense motion strongly suggesting that DNA Security, for a reason or reasons unknown, had withheld obviously exculpatory evidence, he decided to produce, without notice, Meehan for cross-examination. The advantage: he might catch the defense unprepared for questioning. The disadvantage: he obviously didn’t have time to prep Meehan.

To the extent that he displayed any strategy at all, Meehan’s goal seemed to be to stall as much as possible, looking expectantly at Nifong (who was seen to be frequently yawning by those with a head-on view of him) after each question. Unfortunately, the judge, Osmond Smith, didn’t shut down the questioning, and Meehan was eventually forced to concede the obvious. So an appearance that should have lasted 10 minutes stretched into nearly two hours.

The most charitable interpretation of Meehan would see him as remarkably naïve, a scientist who didn’t realize that those doing work for law enforcement have to follow standard procedures, rather than making up their own rules. Those less inclined toward the charity of the season might suggest that Meehan willfully joined in a conspiracy with Mike Nifong to withhold exculpatory evidence, because he wanted business for his lab.

Meehan got off to a bad start. Less than 10 questions into a session with Bannon, he challenged a defense assertion that the underlying DNA test results—the results that he and Nifong had mutually agreed would be excluded from his report to the D.A.—showed DNA from multiple men on the material from the accuser’s rape kit. Since the accuser had claimed to have had no sexual intercourse for a week prior to the lacrosse party, this evidence would seem to undercut what remains of her credibility.

Meehan’s denial triggered a detailed walk-through, lasting around 40 minutes, in which Bannon took the DNA Security head through each piece of rape kit evidence. By the end of the exchange, Meehan had confirmed the defense interpretation. His tests showed evidence of DNA from multiple males, none of whom were on the lacrosse team.

Bannon concluded by asking Meehan whether the lab head understood the definition of “exculpatory.” It quickly emerged that Meehan seemed to believe that he wasn’t obligated to follow the law. Instead, he would make up whatever definition of “exculpatory” he found convenient, and produce a report that reflected his personal definition.

(It’s worth remembering that the Open Discovery Law was supposed to avoid this very debate: prosecutors in North Carolina do not have the right to decide whether evidence might or might not be exculpatory: they must turn over all evidence in their file to the defense. Nifong and Meehan apparently conspired to get around the law’s requirements by producing a report that wouldn’t reveal key exculpatory evidence, and hope that the defense wouldn’t ask for the underlying data.)

What motivated Meehan? As Joseph Neff’s article from today’s N&O nicely summarizes, the lab director justified his actions through an ever-changing array of reasons, several of which were transparently absurd.

1.) He wanted to protect the privacy of the other lacrosse players.

He approached the issue, said Meehan, as if he were a parent of one of the unindicted players.

Meehan never explained, however, how he would impinge upon the other 43 players’ privacy by producing a report that (a) conclusively stated that no DNA matches existed between the unindicted players and the accuser and (b) matches did exist between five other males and the accuser.

Here’s how the L.A. Times described the scene: "Asked by a defense attorney how lab results clearing all 46 players would violate their privacy, Meehan fumbled for an answer as Nifong sat with his head lowered, staring at documents."

Another revelation from the hearing, meanwhile, cast strong doubt upon Meehan’s self-proclaimed position as an ardent privacy-rights advocate. He admitted that in one document turned over to the state, his lab included the names of three other men who were subjects of another case. Concern for their privacy appears not to have formed a major priority of the lab director.

2.) The May 12 report was not a “final conclusive report on the case,” and Meehan would have supplied additional information had local authorities requested he do so.

The Meehan Model would represent a novel approach to law enforcement. Experts could produce reports tailored as the prosecution desires. These reports, in turn, could be presented in such a way that any reasonable person would consider the document to be comprehensive. But, when caught withholding exculpatory information, experts could claim that their report was only an ‘interim” document, with a finalized version to be produced at a later date.

3.) Meehan wanted to “do the right thing.”

“I don’t have a legal justification or a reason,” said Meehan at one point, “I was just trying to do the right thing.”

This line of argument generated an exasperated question from defense attorney Jim Cooney, who wondered if Meehan was familiar with the laws of North Carolina.

Agencies contracted to do work for the state, of course, don’t get to make up their own rules: they must follow state laws. Meehan, however, \ didn’t even follow the protocols of his own company—which call for producing a report of all DNA examined. “By the letter of the standard,” he noted, his report “diverges from the letter of that standard.” That the head of the company appears to see no problem in flouting his own regulations raises questions how seriously DNA Security takes the principle of due process.

Meanwhile, according to Meehan, state law could be trumped by his definition of what constituted “the right thing.” His decision, the lab director told Bannon, “might not hold any weight in your legal arena.” This statement made no sense: Meehan was producing a report for the “legal arena.” If he wants to change North Carolina’s evidence laws, he should lobby the legislature.

The “protect-the-players” argument was transparently absurd. The “non-final report” claim was little more than a word game. And the “do the right thing” contention portrayed Meehan as a naïve scientist who didn’t understand the intimidating world of criminal justice.

I suspect that not even all four of the figures seated at the prosecution’s table found these arguments credible, leaving the likeliest alternative:

4.) Meehan and Nifong conspired to violate the lacrosse players’ civil rights.

Before the hearing, Nifong would have done well to have reminded Meehan of the 5th amendment: on several occasions, the lab director essentially admitted to a conspiracy with Nifong.

Meehan remarks about this issue included:

  • Nifong “specifically wanted to know: does any reference specimen match any of the profiles we gave?”
  • Before indictments, Nifong knew that there was no match to Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty but that matches to other unidentified males existed.
  • The match to unidentified males from the rectal swab not reported because it was “not probative evidence,” an approach on which “we agreed.”
  • “This report was a specific report on a request from Mr. Nifong.”
  • “We were in agreement that the alternative would have been to produce names and profiles of everybody in the case.”
  • “We would be glad to provide a more thorough report upon the request of our client.” [Meehan repeatedly referred to Nifong as the “client.”]
  • Had Nifong said, “‘I want a report on everything,’ that’s what we would produce.”
  • Violated his own lab’s protocol, but “not just because the district attorney told me to.”

And, the killer question: Was the failure to report these results the intentional decision of you and the district attorney?

Meehan: Yes.

Over and over again, Meehan informed the court that he and Nifong conspired to deny the civil rights of the three accused players and quite possibly the entire team. The 5th amendment is made for such occasions; the posture as a naïf about the affairs of the law seems unlikely to carry much weight.

148 comments:

GPrestonian said...

Good point, KC, Nifong gambled and lost. I was surprised that he had Meehan there in the 1st place.

Meehan has obviously decided not to perjure himself and thus participate in his being tossed under the bus by Nifong, but I get the trong impresion from your descriptions here, and other blodgs/articles, that Meehan left a helluva lot unsaid - offer him a deal and the damn breaks.

GPrestonian said...

Think I need to fix that 's' key?

strong impression

Anonymous said...

You're probably tired of the compliments, Professor Johnson, but here is another: First-rate reporting from the hearing. It's frustrating to see this legal abuse of the lacrosse players continue. Why won't North Carolina's U.S. Senators and members of the U.S. House join with colleague Jones in writing to the Justice Department? Or pick up the phone and call Mr. Gonzales, the Attorney General?

Anonymous said...

Great googly moogly. This is beyond absurd. DOJ should be spending Christmas in Durham if they even know how to spell their names. This is unbelievable.

GPrestonian said...

Wanted to ask you when you had the 'Schedule' entry up, KC - how did the local and national press receive you? Did they know who you are? And did they evidence any respect, or are they still thinking that you are just one of many bloggers who 'operate w/o editors and don't care about the facts'? (to loosely paraphrase Trudy Rubin from a few days ago)

And did they but you dinner tonight? ;>)

beenaround said...

Slightly off topic for here, but is there any documentation for the "she initially claimed that she was raped by 20 men" claim?

Anonymous said...

Chicago writes:

To Beenaround,

The false accuser has given over 16 different variations of her story from the time the party ended to now. One of the statements she made the evening of the party was that she was attacked by a group of 20.She has also claimed 3 and 5 and that no rape at all occurred. If you read through the motion to dismiss the photo line-up on WRAL, you will see the claim of 20.

Anonymous said...

Well here is the Herald Sun's take on yesterday's business. Incomplete, inadequate, mendacious and misleading, but not surprising.

P.S. - KC, thanks for all you are doing. Even though my constantly "refreshing" your site and these comments pretty much killed my Friday afternoon workday -- and I doubt I'm the only one :)

Anonymous said...

2:29am-

I see you can't sleep either. Yes I agree 100% The HS spin is out once again. I could not have said it better myself.

Incomplete, inadequate, mendacious and misleading, but not surprising.

NDLax84 said...

1.) He wanted to protect the privacy of the other lacrosse players.

He approached the issue, said Meehan, as if he were a parent of one of the unindicted players.


At the time of his work there were no indicted lacrosse players. All 46 were yet under suspicion, despite the accuser's 4.4 "identifications." No, indictments came only after his fine work.

My wife, on fully appreciating this: How come it wasn't ended by the judge today, and how come Nifong isn't in jail?

Good questions.

Cedarford said...

From what other posters are saying, Meehan and Nifong had some of these conversations about excluding exculpatory evidence from DNASI's report BEFORE the grand jury convened and indicted.

And I learned today something I just assumed - isn't true. That no recordings of grand jury proceedings are done in North Carolina, unlike other states.

It seems someone should be looking ahead and should go to the courts to get a waiver of grand jury secrecy to order testimony held by a neutral court - of the jurors and the judge's impressions of that sitting grand jury of what was represented to them by Nifong, Hima, and Gottlieb about ID process, DNA results, and likelihood of toxicology results NOT clearing the accused but making a trial necessary (tox tests -which we know now, but only Nifong knew at the time, was not tested.)

The neutral court would best be a Federal one that has standing to bypass State grand jury secrecy in investigating and preserving evidence regarding a Federal civil rights violation inquiry.

Anonymous said...

A real prosecutor would have long ago realized that he had been bamboozled by a whore into bringing rape charges against three innocent men. He would be incensed, force a retraction out of the accuser, and publicly apologize to the defendants. That's what a real, honest prosecutor who is not pandering to the rabble would do.

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately, I've only jumped on your site as of late. I wish I'd known about it since March - you do a great job.

I'm most amused about the 'dragging anyone through the mud' comment, and either Bannon or Cooney summed it up best in his examination: how does excluding anyone drag him through the mud?

I assume Nifong and Meehan will massage this into an indictment (figuretive) of the defense attorneys; that they would have demanded the names of the people who were, in fact, id'd, and that they were the ones he was protecting.

But at some point, Meehan will be forced to shore up what has already amounted to a pretty stark admission - that he was told by an (at the time) unelected government official to do something that smacked in the face of his lab's protocol, and he did it.

More, this is a highly educated man whose field has an obvious nexus to law enforcement, etc. It begs the question: is it at all reasonable that Meehan thought that this could've been ok?

Anonymous said...

Wow, he wanted to protect thep privacy of the "hooligans" committing racists outrages who "whatever they did was bad enough" who their season ended, their dna taken, their professors turning on them, and being threatened with physical violence. I am sure the LAX players privacy was protected by a report that shows they did nothing wrong. Thanks Meehan, for looking out for the innocent. (sarcasm(

Meehan, he cares.

Victim in Massachusetts said...

Does anyone have the phone number to the DOJ. Nifong nedds federal prison.

bill anderson said...

I will second the sarcasm on the "privacy" business. After what Nifong had said about the lacrosse players, and after he helped to stir up a virtual orgy of hatred toward them, now he says he is "concerned" about their privacy?

This is beyond "give me a break" time. This is an obvious attempt to massage the evidence in order to justify the indictments. Truly evil.

I found it interesting to see that the LA Times seems to understand the issue at hand. The larger, mostly liberal/left newspapers have been spin machines for Nifong. Now, I don't expect the NY Times and Duff Wilson and Salena Roberts suddenly to do a turnaround and admit that the "Newspaper of Record" really was the "Newspaper of Nifong Enabling," but if that does ever happen, then the earth really will shake.

Good work, K.C. And you posters are correct on the local press. There is a world of difference between the N&O and the pathetic piece that John Stevenson wrote in the Herald-Sun.

Anonymous said...

Nifong and Meehan wanted to protect the LAX players from the evidence of their innocence. Yeah, that makes sense.

Anonymous said...

Where are the Federal Investigators.......Mr Gonzales ...Where are you?????????????????????????

Can you not hear us all crying foul here in North Carolina.....your silence is deafening......HELP, Durham needs you.......bring large brush .....much dirt to be swept away from Durham Legal and Police departments??????

Anonymous said...

KC, thanks from the bottom of my heart for all you've done, and please keep up your wonderful work. I hope and trust that you and Bill Anderson have been in direct contact with the defense lawyers. As good as I'm sure they are, I'm confident that yours and Bill's input will strengthen the defense of Collin, Reade and Dave and hasten the day when justice shall prevail.--Duke '67

The Dude said...

KC You are the man! great articles on the court date and pre/post fallout. My take on this:
1. nifong knows he is cooked. Why hurry the punishment by conceeding anything.
2. Judge now has recorded testimony which hangs Nifong. This may speed up the process on that end
3. Judge will decide on the merits and dismiss at motion in Feb. that way he can claim neutrality between the case and the misconduct
4. Nifong will be pleading "insanity" and there is lots of evidence to same.
5. Judge(s) in N. Carolina save face. Nifong disappears, no one ever hears from this lab again
6. ALL LAX players file suit against the State and Nifong. Privacy concerns will be discussed when speculating how a DA got an order to DNA test various people (as a group) without the requisite probable cause for each person.
7. duke Admin starts dropping like flies when the civil suit is filed. They end up at other colleges with even more money
8. No one ever get to find out if the AV was in the military, college,etc I'm sure everyone has figured out that she was with 5 different men(none of whom play Lax at Duke) within the time frame of ONE UNDERWEAR CHANGE.
9. bETTER YET, she had no underwear on when Police arrived. Where did she get same. She changed at the Duke Lax bathroom?
Does anyone truely believe she is not a Prostitute?
10. KC wins Pulitzer Prize for journalism.

Anonymous said...

Why wasn't Nifong called as a witness?

GPrestonian said...

7:56 am Bill Anderson:

Good morning, Bill. You said (and I agree):

"This is an obvious attempt to massage the evidence in order to justify the indictments. Truly evil."

I doubt we'll ever know to what extent Nifong used this tweaked evidence in order to justify obtaining the indictments - without knowledge of what really happened in the GJ, we'll have to wonder just what Nifong said in there. Surely he didn't lie outright (?? :) that there was DNA connecting Collin & Reade to the FA?

Wonder what the chances of one or more of the GJ comming forward & letting the world know what was said & done by the DA?

Victim in Massachusetts said...

9:19 the GJ must really feel stupid this morning. I agree with you I hope one of them feels that they were misled so bad that they come forward and say what was said and who said what. This will meake a great chapter for my book.

duke09parent said...

The privacy claim is absurd. They tried to use a legitimate concern in a situation that makes no sense. I work with medical records in legal settings. When we need to produce records with patient names which are not part of the case, we block out ("redact") those names. If Meehan's concern was legitimate he should have raised them in May and Nifong should have negotiated a protective order with defense counsel.

Anonymous said...

To 7:00 AM:
Nifong and Meehan can' really even argue that the defense lawyers would have insisted on knowing the IDs of the other DNA samples, because--they were unidentified, i.e., they apparently didn't match anyone the lab or the DA knew about. The one identifiable sample not from a lacrosse team member, which matched the AV's boyfriend, was revealed with his identification--so apparently they weren't concerned about his privacy, and we know they weren't really concerned about the players' privacy, so they would have to have been concerned about the "privacy" of people who couldn't actually be identified anyway--hmmm.

Anonymous said...

Can we throw North carolina out of the union ?

AMac said...

Relying on Press accounts of the Duke Lacrosse Rape Case continues to be an excellent way to become misinformed.

This morning (Saturday) on NBC Today, yesterday's developments were covered. Lead item: accused victim is pregnant, paternity tests were ordered, defense lawyer denies that any of the indicted players is the father. The reporter went on to describe goings-on with DNA testing. I was left with the impression that this is the back-and-forth that is typical of many criminal cases.

The Baltimore Sun has a short, unsigned account on Page 4C, the middle of the Sports Section. "Paternity test ordered for baby of Duke Accuser" begins "A judge in Durham, N.C. yesterday ordered a paternity test on a baby expected by the woman who has accused three Duke lacrosse players of rape. But both the district attorney and the defense rejected any possibility that one of the men is the father."

Halfway through the article, the reader gets "Also yesterday, a lab director admitted in court that after an agreement with Nifong, he violated his own procedures and withheld results showing none of the players' DNA was found on or in the woman's body."

(This is the same paper that printed an abridged version of the mendacious Wilson/Glater NYT hit piece in August, and whose Public Editor refused to entertain the idea that any of its misrepresentations merited a correction.)

So, Pravda-like, the press is offering two story lines. For casual readers, the Duke Lacrosse Rape Case continues long as tawdry He-Said/She-Said infotainment. To news junkies who have followed the case carefully, articles contain more hints that All is Not Well. What's reported about the DNA lab does indicate more problems with the prosecution's case (hmmm. I wonder what, exactly, they might be?)

Which brings me back to this web-log. The work product of a single person, one who arrived with no special knowledge or insight into the case. But whose perspective is to evaluate the actions of law enforcement, the justice system, and the academic community by the standards of due process, proper procedure, logic, and decency.

Despite the absence of reporting staff, editors, fact checkers (and a budget), this site, and others, have kept me abreast on what has happened and why.

Durham-in-Wonderland should have been no more than a source of color commentary on the Hoax. It's the source of critical facts and interpretations because of U.S. news organizations' continuing abdication of their responsibilities and their ethics.

GPrestonian said...

KC sayeth profoundly - "Meehan got off to a bad start."

Check this out. lol

LieStopper's take on Meehan now

bill anderson said...

Amac, you have said it well. I stand in awe of K.C. and Liestoppers, and the rest, but K.C. especially has been a one-man wrecking crew.

As for me, I would not have thought to have my own blogsite in a million years. (Remember, when I was in college during the Stone Age, a computer was this huge machine in an even larger room, and we fed punch cards into it.) I'm thankful that Lew Rockwell was willing to give me a forum, and he is an unsung hero in all of this.

Perhaps, we WILL see a Pulitzer for blogging in the future, and if that happens, K.C. will have been the inspiration for it.

One thing that is important is that prosecutors and others in government who abuse the law at least are going to face the prospect that a large number of people who are not associated with the state-worshipping MSM are not going to stand by. I realize that at some point, Nifong realized that he could not touch K.C., and that if he tried, he would be standing with his pants around his ankles.

Again, thanks to K.C. and all of you for your work for justice. Granted, the net can be used to pursue evil purposes (a.k.a. Ourheartsworld.com), but we see how it is used for good, too.

Nocoen said...

What about the accuser in this case? Shouldn't she be included in the variety of charges that should be leveled? Since it is her sworn statement that this whole thing occured, shouldn't she be facing charges of perjury? Making false statements?

GPrestonian said...

10:12 Amac:

Great analysis, Amac, I couldn't agree more.

Wow, did the B Sun really write this:

Halfway through the article, the reader gets "Also yesterday, a lab director admitted in court that after an agreement with Nifong, he violated his own procedures and withheld results showing none of the players' DNA was found on or in the woman's body."?

That's not even half true! The Meehan/Nifong-tweaked summary did include that info, didn't it? Trouble is, that's the only info it included. Left out was, among other things, that the lab also found the presence, shall we say, of 3-5(??) other males.

Do we have a copy of that summary report laying around anywhere?

HMan said...

I suppose the mainstream media, including-especially the New York Times, thinks first about the lowest common denominator appeal of any story. For the latest from Planet Durham, that would be the fact that Precious is pregnant and that paternity testing has been ordered of the defendants. That kind of tableaux obviously works on a visceral level. Those who want to believe the LAX guys guilty will get a momentary rush of satisfying emotion before the cold fact that her pregnancy hurts her case rather than helps it seeps in. But that brief rush is better than none at all. So the paper leads with that part of the story because they are selling emotion above all else, it seems. Even the kind that evaporates in the light of the truth.

Anonymous said...

Just check out the poor pitiful Herald Sun. Nothing is covered or discussed on the editorial page about this latest Nifong criminal act. Only a letter from someone in Florida.

That editorial staff should be fired and the whole place should be fumigated!

A pathetic Nifong enabling paper with the worst writers I've ever seen.

Anonymous said...

This has to stop!! All the evidence produced so far points to numerous criminal violations of law and ethics by the DA and not the indicted students. The DOJ must step in. Can someone provide contact information for all of us to write the DOJ? We all need less blogging and more direct contact with the federal goverment to express our concern. I can only imagine the national outrage if the students were black.

Anonymous said...

Bravo 3 times over KC. This is the stuff of Freedom..... this case is why folk outside of America think corruption is the norm.....but ..thankfully its KC and other bloggers who are the true defenders of FREEDOM and those boys need it pretty soon. Great Stuff again KC.

Nifong now booking a room with NO view in nice hotel in Siberia!

HMan said...

When the histories of our time are written, the story of the Duke LAX case will go in the chapters on "The Blogs and the Revolution in News Reporting".
I am so struck by this difference: The NYTs visits this story about once a month. It always picks an attention grabbing lead regardless of actual relevance. Various writers are deployed who may or may not be cited. As a result, very little ACCUMULATES either in their readers knowledge or the papers investment in the story. If they are wrong, big deal. Just move on to another attention grabbing story of soap-opera dimensions.
But with a serious blog-site it is day by day, it all stays on the record, it is meant to build up a coherent, accessible corpus, and any inconsistencies or factual error are subject to ruthless correction from a circling flock of sharp eyed story enthusiasts.
So, thank you sincerely KC. Your reward will be that this blog will be the quoted in future about 100 times more than the NYTs and FOX news put together.

GPrestonian said...

10:44 Anon said:

A pathetic Nifong enabling paper with the worst writers I've ever seen.

Well put. Have you read the Motion for Change of Venue? Parts 44-62 (pages 18-25) address the H-S' coverage and editorials.

We've all seen their egregious sins of journalistic omission & comission, and the blatant Nifong boosterism, as they were published, but seeing them delineated page after page after page in the Motion really brings it home.

Anonymous said...

KC:

I would like to add my voice to the chorus on your tenacious and keen reporting. Many thanks.

While I hate to go against the tidal wave of exculpatory evidence, is there any way these students' could be guilty of any of the charges? Is there a remote possibility that Nifong has the Ace of Spades up his sleeve?

********************
If we could fast-forward to the end of the trial, and all three boys are acquitted, what's next?

Someone earlier raised the prospect of civil suits against the 88 gangsters, the accuser, the DA's office and perhaps even NIfong himself, and I would add the DNA lab for attempting to fudge the truth. Would these civil suits stand up to scrutiny, and assuming they do, what would be the ultimate consequence of it?

RM PAM

Anonymous said...

gprestonian--

The Herald Sun should be gone after just like Nifong will surely be. After the whole country has seen that they are innocent and now know that Nifong deliberately withheld evidence of their innocence, look at the H-S editorials. Nothing.

And all this is BIG NEWS. The paper should be held accountable for their abuses by bloggers and others should make sure they feel the heat.

Old Ashley, Childress, and Landfried seem to be tongue-tied and confused. What to do? What to do?
Disgusting people all around in Durham.

Anonymous said...

---While I hate to go against the tidal wave of exculpatory evidence, is there any way these students' could be guilty of any of the charges?---

The likelihood that the Duke 3 raped Precious is the same as the likelihood that they conspired with Martians to assassinate JFK.

No.

War Eagle

Anonymous said...

KC - Seriously, your reporting is so much better than any MSM. Neff has done a fine job too dspite his challenges. Last night the MSM lead with "She's Pregnant." Who cares? I want to know about the case. The way you organized Meehan's reasons/excuses/lies was simply brilliant. Thanks.
PS
Didn't the judge have any reaction to this?

Anonymous said...

Chicago writes:

It really irritates me that in the statement from UNC Hospital (and I am not blaming UNC, rather, I am blaming the false accuser) that she asked for "privacy."

1. Do Collin, Reade and David have privacy?

2. Do the family's of the falsely accused have privacy?

3. Who is paying for her stay in the hospital? Last time I checked strippers/escorts/hookers did not have health insurance.

4. Who is paying for the prosecutors trying to capitalize off her lies?

5. Who is paying David, Reade and Collin's legal bills?

If you can answer these questions correctly, you decide who really deserves "privacy."

Anonymous said...

Chicago writes:

It really irritates me that in the statement from UNC Hospital (and I am not blaming UNC, rather, I am blaming the false accuser) that she asked for "privacy."

1. Do Collin, Reade and David have privacy?

2. Do the family's of the falsely accused have privacy?

3. Who is paying for her stay in the hospital? Last time I checked strippers/escorts/hookers did not have health insurance.

4. Who is paying for the prosecutors trying to capitalize off her lies?

5. Who is paying David, Reade and Collin's legal bills?

If you can answer these questions correctly, you decide who really deserves "privacy."

The Drill SGT said...

I'm disappointed. The DNASI web site still runnings, but the comment form won't accept any new messages. I had hoped to send them this one:

I suggest that based on Director Meehan's testimony in court that you all should be looking for work at McDonald's, because your business is about to go bankrupt with legal costs and your association with it will make it difficult to find any meaningful work elsewhere at labs that want to maintain their quality standards.

Anonymous said...

To 11:24--

The answer is that the public is paying for everything for this strange woman's existence.

I, too, was offended for such a person to demand "privacy".

Perhaps she should try keeping her "privates" off the streets and she would have "privacy".

This whole saga is just sickening.

Debrah

michael freeman said...

Mr. Johnson, I thank you for your time and effort. This is sad but necessary work. Again, thanks.

Anonymous said...

************ KC demonstrates---in bold relief---that perfection is not always to be denied. *************

Things are getting brighter and brighter! So happy for these guys; however, I will be happier when I read that Mike Nifong is being sent to prison.

Debrah

CF said...

I can't tell you what an outstanding job you have done in covering this case. You are doing a remarkable public service. I hope when this is over, you use what you have learned to write a book on this case.

Anonymous said...

Interestingly, FOX news gets the story here. But even though there is outrage among commentators (especially the very articulate Jeanine Pirro), I have not heard any of the news panel prosecutors calling for criminal charges against Mr. Nifong. How much more does it take before we see acknowledgment among the experts that his conduct is criminal or am I just getting carried away? Has anyone noticed any other MSM outlet catching on to the most serious implications of what happened yesterday?

The false birth announcement by the accuser's family is one of the more comical twists to this pitiful tale...what an unusual group of people that family is.

It does feel like the wheels of justice are turning ever so slowly in the right direction.
And I am holding on to the hope that the defendants will enjoy complete exoneration, not at their own trial (since I anticipate suppression of the lineup results), but at Mr. Nifong's.

Observer

Anonymous said...

Does anyone else believe it is exceedingly strange that Nifong has precious virtually incommunicado from even her family? "Family spokesperson" Jackie hasn't seen her in months. You know Nifong has her holed up, at county expense, in a Ramada in Wilmington, or some place, watching Oprah and eating room service.. He's probably worried that if he lets her loose, he'll be letting the cat out of the bag.

Anonymous said...

Off topic, but could it be possible that Victoria Peterson is the so called "handler" for the accuser on behalf of Nifong? It is curious that she shows up at every hearing and despite the fact that her family has no contact with her, Nifong seems to have plenty.

Anonymous said...

Chicago writes:

It is entirely possible Victoria Peterson is her handler. In fact, Victoria has been in touch with her family since day one. Victoria publically endorsed Nifong. Victoria also made a complete ass of herself and the Durham Black Community when she came up with that outlandish conspiracy theory at the NCCU forum back in the Spring. Victoria is a disgrace to Durham and has an obvious agenda. It is people like Victoria who will effectively set back a respectable image of the Durham Black community. A smart move by the Durham Black Community would be to take the microphone out of her hand.

Anonymous said...

Obeserver---

As someone else alluded to earlier, if these men were black, everyone knows that Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the NAACP, and the Black Panthers, etc......would be rioting in Durham.

And the legal system would move quickly to appease the troublemakers as usual.

Such a dirty prosecutor would be removed and disbarred post haste. Count on it.

Does anyone remember when Reade Seligmann's life was threatened by the Black Panthers in Durham when he appeared in court earlier this year? And no repercussions at all for the people who threatened his life.

This whole case is much more serious than some wish to acknowledge. After it's finally over, I believe that black people will suffer the "cry fire in a crowded theatre" syndrome.

Many Americans will lose interest in their interests....so to speak.

And for good reason.

Debrah

Anonymous said...

Eating lunch today I turned on News 14 Carolina and heard the following sound byte: the defense team requested paternity testing in order to determine whether any of the Duke lacrosse players is the father. This is a fine example of the media's propensity to mislead. While factually correct - the defense did indeed request paternity testing - the reason was certainly not what the newscaster stated. The defense team has already publicly stated that it is impossible for any of the three Duke lacrosse players to be the father based on fact, not opinions. While I don't put News 14 Carolina in the same boat as the Durham Herald-Sun, I suggest that they be more careful with editing their on-air statements.

GPrestonian said...

12:26 Anon:

That's exactly the way the H-S put it in their article today:

Also during a Friday court hearing, Judge Osmond Smith ordered paternity tests to determine if any of the rape suspects was responsible for the accuser's newly disclosed pregnancy.

In other news, Collin's dad, Kevin Finnerty, asks "Why would you not try to assess and pursue other evidence and more facts and a better understanding of what did take place?"

Anonymous said...

12:26--- The local news channels are out to tease for ratings. They know that the idiots in Durham have orgasms over such a story and just love to hear that the accuser is pregnant. The irresponsible media hint that it could have been the result of a "rape".

Which is the total opposite of the truth, but it keeps them from admitting that they hitched their racist wagons to an idiot like Mike Nifong.

Anonymous said...

Is anyone really surprised about the "Accuser pregnant, judge orders paternity test" headlines? The defense has known that she was pregnant for quite a while (Cheshire said yesterday). So, in light of all these motions hitting the fan this week, Nifong finally tell his "people" to make sure that info gets out to the press--what better way to detract attention from his own criminal behavior?? His is an evil and disgusting piece of garbage!

duke2009mom

Anonymous said...

Gotta agree with Debrah. I have already lost interest. This is all too pathetic.

Anonymous said...

One more thing...I read that a number of LAX players along with the new coach and Mike Pressler were in the courtroom. Was anyone from President Broadhead's office or any professors in attendance? And how many non-LAX Duke students were there?

Thanks,
Observer

tlxcross said...

It was incredible to watch the Fox News shows last night. All three major shows (O'Reilly, Hannity, Greta) discussed the Hoax. Most interesting was Greta Van Susteran. At one point, a NC attorney was asked about the written records of the Grand Jury hearing in which the players were indicted. The other attorneys on the show were interested in seeing what had been said that would return this indictment. The NC attorney advised the panel that there is no record kept of GJ hearings! You could have heard a pin drop. The other panelists were simply shocked to speechlessness. Greta herself was stunned. What kind of backwater is Durham? Why would any parent having any respect for their child's well-being send them to Duke? It is simply staggering.

On the earlier Fox Report, one lawyer came right out and said the Nifong "belongs in prison." I think that this is the only full measure of justice we should expect, i.e. Mike Nifong in a NC state prison.

The Drill SGT said...

KC,
Would you discus or expand on three points, I'm curious about?

1. In my experience, when an expert takes the stand, unless both counsel's stipulate to the background and credentials of said expert, there is a period of questioning regarding degrees, experience, prior court appearances, etc. was any of that done with Meehan?

2. Was there any exploration by defense counsel of Meehan's statements that "Nifong was the client". pointing out that the client was the State or the People or the taxpayers of NC and that they were owed an accurate, complete, unbiased report as required by his SOP, the standard setting body, and the state law?

3. You said: Meehan got off to a bad start. Less than 10 questions into a session with Bannon, he challenged a defense assertion that the underlying DNA test results—the results that he and Nifong had mutually agreed would be excluded from his report to the D.A.—showed DNA from multiple men on the material from the accuser’s rape kit.

what was the bone of contention in the first 10 questions?

a. the number was not 5?
b. that the methodology didn't establish that reliably?
c. he wasn't familiar with the contents of the report he'd signed and was here to testify about?
d. something else?

Victim in Massachusetts said...

12:26 Reade Seligmann's life was threatened on hi way into the courthouse in May when he made is first appearace, and as he entered the courtroom.

There is a website that has an open death threat on it for Reade.

I have also seen other threats on some threads that I am keeping for anyone who wants them, and I am recording one site everyday just to see if anything else comes in.

This is just a small list of them believe me there are alot more than anyone would think.

Anonymous said...

Are the names of the members of the Nifong-influenced Grand Jury part of the public record? Does anyone know the names? Since no recording was apparently made of the proceedings, would it possible for the defense team to take depositions from those Grand Jury members, who were obviously misled by Nifong? And please re-read the last paragraph of the 10:12 poster, amac.

The Drill SGT said...

Interesting article. The lead para

Duke University's handling of the alleged rape attack by three members of its lacrosse team last year, along with the exposure of town-gown antagonisms and other negative publicity seems to have caused measurable damage to the school. The results are just starting to come in, but the school could be in for long term slippage, following its dramatic climb to the upper level of the academic prestige system.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2006/12/the_damage_to_duke_starts_to_s.html

AMac said...

anon 2:15pm --

Since I commented on the print media's pathetic performance in covering the Hoax in the 10:12am comment you cited, credit where it's due. Joseph Neff has written a series of excellent just-the-facts stories for the Raleigh News & Observer (many are linked from D-i-W). The N&O seems to have jumped off the smear bandwagon in April or May, a steller performance compared to its peers. Newsweek's had good commentary, as has New York magazine (linked at D-i-W's home page).

The case has crumbled to such an extent that I suspect the next few weeks will bring a series of shocked, shocked! exposes from the lumbering house organs of the p.c. elites. After all, there are low-hanging insights to be harvested. For instance, [s] though it has probably escaped KC Johnson's notice,[/s] if this D.A. can trample these out-of-favor individuals' rights, the same thing might happen elsewhere--even in circumstances where our sympathies are with the victims!

[s] = sarcasm tag

bill anderson said...

One thing to keep in mind as we see the downward slide of Duke University is that many of the people who will not be sending their children there are wealthy (and mostly white) who have the money to pay the tuition. In other words, the first people to vacate the Duke ship will be the PAYING customers.

Also, as the applicant pool falls, the average SAT scores of the incoming freshmen are likely to fall, too. No doubt, the Duke administration will blame it all on the lacrosse team instead of looking inward.

If you think about it, what parent is going to want to send his or her child to a university where a vocal and powerful element of the faculty believes that that parent's child should be going to prison for a non-crime? Duke and Brodhead might blame the LAX team, but those people need to look in the mirror.

Furthermore, as the criminality of Nifong's prosecution continues to unfold, we have to keep in mind that the Duke administration and faculty pretty much supported what Nifong was doing. Will the rats jump ship, now that it is floundering in deep doo-doo? We shall see.

Anonymous said...

I'd like to hear from old Al McShit-ley, errr, McSurely and the righteous and fine organization--the NAACP.

Civil rights have been trampled deliberately. Shouldn't the race-obsessed McSurely be concerned that the racists in Durham have irreparably injured three innocent men?

Where's big lanky Al when you need a god-forsaken-granola-fed straggly, self-righteous liberal when you need one?

Wonder where these civil rights activists have gone?

Hehehe

HMan said...

I see the results of Fridays court room activites as very bad for the Duke Administration. Their silence about the peculiarities of Nifongs proscecution of this case must have always been based on the notion that, taken as a whole, it would not turn out to be completely indefensible. Therefore, their silence regarding proceedural irregularities would seem at least semi-reasonable, especially after a few years had passed. But not after Friday. The real Nifong is now un-mistakable. The DA that Duke implicitly trusted to do justice in regard to their students is now everywhere known to be a totally amoral thug-with-a-law license.
Dukes national reputation is now glued to that of M. Nifong. That was what Brodhead chose to accept and so there it is. For better or worse (and it could get a lot worse.)

Anonymous said...

2:15
Wasn't Judge Stephens the presiding judge?

Anonymous said...

what was the Judge like during the proceeding? So much depends on his ability to act impartially and with courage.

Anonymous said...

use google to view the cached version of the firm's website (the lab took down their site but it is still partially accessible if you know files names).

You will notice that under 'about us' there are several links/references to the Duke case which the lab was using to promote itself. The links went to N&O btw - of course the stories are not quite accurate now...

Anonymous said...

To borrow from a previous Bill Anderson column...

Just IMAGINE THE OUTRAGE if the accused were black, and the DA withheld exculpatory DNA results.

Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, protest marches, "We Shall Overcome", buildings burning...

We've seen it before.

War Eagle

bill anderson said...

War Eagle,

I'll bet Nifong is a closet Alabama fan. Of course, since he may be looking for work, there is a football opening in Tuscaloosa....

Anonymous said...

Take a bow KC, this was one of your best. I wish we could force journalist, news anchors and talking heads to read this.

Anonymous said...

Can someone enlighten us about the hilarious Grand Jury system in North Carolina? No record of proceedings? No one showing evidence that some of the indicted weren't there when the phantom rape occurred? No fairness at all. What a joke North Carolina "justice" is becoming! Where are the feds? What's holding the feds back?

Anonymous said...

War Eagle--Those points about Jackson and Sharpton have been made over and over again. Everyone knows it would be very different if these men were black.

So is anyone going to do anything substantive about it or just keep repeating it?

Anonymous said...

Who was in the Grandy Jury room besides Nifong and the jurors?

Anonymous said...

Kevin Finnerty being "not happy" with the current situation is probably the understatement of the year. I hope he and the other Lax parents grind Nifong into dog meat before this is over.

Anonymous said...

bill anderson said...

War Eagle,

I'll bet Nifong is a closet Alabama fan. Of course, since he may be looking for work, there is a football opening in Tuscaloosa....

4:13 PM

I think Nifongs best hope is for cousin Jackee to open a Las Vegas style review. Mikey can don Carmen Miranda attire. La Cage aux niFongaux .... Can't you already see that in lights...

Kemper said...

KC,
I just talked with my Bar contact. I have been stating that Nifungu was to get a summons from the Bar before Christmas. The summons accused him of misconduct, to wit pretrial publicity. The summons will NOT be issued until after the Bar meets in January, the new summons will have more charges and the remedy they are looking for is disbarment. As my friend said, Enough is Enough.

Kemper said...

KC,
I just talked with my Bar contact. Nifungu will not get a summons before Christmas, the current summons will be amended at the January Bar meeting with MUCH more serious charges, in light of Friday's testimony. Disbarment is what they are looking for. I think, if he is convicted, they also might refer his actions to the US Attorney for prosecution. They ARE pissed.

Kemper said...

sorry for the double post, same message different wording.

Anonymous said...

Kemper may be right, but his hopeful postings shouldn't keep voters from asking Senator Dole what she is doing about this travesty.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Victim in Massachusetts said...

4:49 I have a stroy out of the Herald Sun Mr.Finnerty is not happy, and I also have a link to a story about duke case in free fall.

Finnerty's dad says 'there was a rush to induct'

http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-800030.cfm

Duke lacrosse case in free fall

http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2006/12/duke_lacrosse_c.html

Anonymous said...

Comments have been made that this whole fiasco has hurt Duke's reputation, commerce, and status. It has been implied that this harm had nothing at all to do with the lacrosse team's actions.

I am as outraged as anyone that a mere accusation of rape is itself tantamount to conviction, and that the penalties for such an accusation are not nearly harsh enough (imo). Those who sincerely desire to see justice for *true* victims of rape must recognize that false accusations diminish the likelihood that juries will be favorable to future victims.

But please let's not lose track of the fact that the lacrosse team was hosting a drunken bash and hiring prostitutes. Just because they've been falsely accused doesn't make them saints -- not by a long stretch.

The accusation would not have been remotely credible, had the target of the accusation been the glee club or even the cross-country team. The lacrosse team had a reputation, and they got it for a reason, so let's not sanctify one bunch of louses just in order to hang another bunch.

(And, yeah, I think Nifong, Meehan, the accuser, her friend who switched stories to back her up, and anyone else who assisted in the hoax all belong in jail. )

bill anderson said...

Oh, please, not again. I thought you had disappeared. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is all the fault of the LAX team.

As I have said before, this was not exactly a church social, but neither was it what you have described. Furthermore, it hardly is different than what goes on at Duke or, for that matter, where I teach. (Or at Harvard and Yale.)

So, let's get off this high horse of the Evil Lacrosse Players Talking Points from Brodhead's office. We have been down this road before, and you and your lackeys have made your damned point.

This blew up because a large number of Duke's faculty members decided it would be a great vehicle for them to use in demanding that Duke become a lefty re-education camp. The administration caved in, and Nifong was able to move in for the kill.

Furthermore, while I do not approve of the kinds of parties that are commonplace at colleges today, I am willing to cut at least some slack for 19-20 year olds. THEY do not control grand juries. THEY do not have the power to obstruct justice. THEY do not have the power that Nifong, Brodhead, Steel, Gottlieb, and the others have brandished, and brandished for all wrong.

You see, Mr. Anonymous Talking Points, the aforemention people are ADULTS, and adults whose positions are those of authority. Are you telling me that they were simply overwhelmed by the Evil LAX players? If they were, and they simply were reacting to a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE CRIME OF UNDERAGE DRINKING AND HIRING OF STRIPPERS and could do nothing but what they did, then those LAX players must be pretty powerful dudes.

So, please do not bother us again with your little talking points. Brodhead and his lackeys in the administration need to come up with something different than Reade, Collin, and Dave made us give in to Houston Baker and the others. They MADE them give in to Nifong. They MADE them take part in a Very Big Lie.

Give me a break, please. And, no, you will not see another post from me on this subject. The issue is abuse of power by state authorities, and lies from the Duke administration and faculty. That is a hell of a lot more serious than a 20-year-old popping open a beer and watching a couple of fat, ugly strippers do whatever it was they were doing. Keep that in mind.

Anonymous said...

I don't think anybody here is suggesting, or has suggested, that the LAX team members are saints. We've all acknowledged, many times in these discussions, that the team showed very poor judgment in hosting that party. But that doesn't change the fact that the 3 defendants have been horribly victimized by corrupt police and prosecutors in Durham, as well as by their own University.

By the way, these young men hired strippers for the party, not prostitutes. They didn't know that the strippers would turn out to be drug-addled prostitutes with criminal records. Should they have expected as much? Maybe. But keep in mind that these individuals are very young, and not as wise to the ways of the world as some of us older, more experienced folks.

theman said...

DNA or no DNA what's the big dif? Nifong has stated from the beginning he will go ahead and pursue this "the old fashion way" before the advent of DNA. Remember there are two other charges besides rape and a jury will split the dif and find them guilty of something.

AMac said...

Brodhead 5:59pm --

Although I have no connection with Duke, I agree with you, at least in part. As I've written elsewhere, was my college-student son to be found at a stripper-party, there would be harsh words then, hopefully, some soul-searching.

It does seem that Tom Wolfe's "I Am Charlotte Simmons" didn't spring from nowhere. While this novel may have depicted the lifestyle of only a minority of Duke students, surely this is not a snapshot that the university should be proud of.

Okay then.

That said, you (and the Brodhead Administration, if you really aren't Richard) have some knotty questions to address.

(1) We've all heard plenty about the **LACROSSE TEAM'S** stripper party, but the silence about the parties hosted by the Baseball Team (confirmed), the Basketball Team (credibly alleged), and Sororities (alleged) has gotten rather deafening. Let's be real: the axe fell on the LAXers because of a nexus between the dreary details of the false accuser's life, and the urgent need of a no-name white Dukie D.A. to win a contested primary against a competent black opponent. Had schdules been a little different, it would have been the hoopsters or somebody else. Agreed?

(2) Those lacrosse players who arranged this entertainment were being crass and ungentlemanly. Not violating the letter or spirit of the law. Stripper clubs are apparently a fact of life in Hillsborough (sp?); certainly they are where I live. Probably some of your co-workers and acquaintances visit these clubs on occasion; some of mine do. Shall you and I reserve our disdain for the lacrosse team, or does consistency obligate us to share the wealth?

(3) Your administration had the choice between doing what was Right But Unpopular, or taking the easy way. Back in April, it must have seemed hard to contemplate crossing your friends in the Group of 88, angering townies out for Duke blood, and standing up for Due Process--even if each of the DA's three victims wasn't guaranteed to be a choir boy. With D.A. Nifong's case collapsing into a tangle of ethical lapses, and your Administration holding to its silence, I'd imagine your prudence doesn't seem so, well, prudent any more.

Since Preview is my friend, I note before posting that this comment is the third response that Brodhead 5:59pm has called forward. That probably suffices. And, Theman 6:44pm, you're probably right that many of your Durham compatriots would like nothing better than to find the three students "guilty of something." Fortunately, your one-trick-pony talking point doesn't mean what you think it means.

Anonymous said...

Bill, you have mistaken my post above for that of someone else. I've never visited this blog before tonight and that comment is my first.

In fact, I agree with most of what you wrote above. I have no knowledge of whether the strippers (prostitutes, apparently) were fat and ugly, nor do I have any association with any person or institution in this case. I agree - and stated clearly in my post - that the abuse of power is a greater crime than is underage drinking or procuring prostitutes.

When I was a college athlete, we had an athletic code. It was quite clear that beer bashes and strippers were not part of it -- and that was when the legal drinking age was 18, and 19.

Trust me, the wacky race-baiting radical politics offend me deeply. But I don't want to see the politics of victimization turned into a tool to elevate the accused to ivory pedestals of their own, either.

Anonymous said...

Dear 5:59PM--

You have got to be one of those Trinity Park scags. Listen, you live in a little knock-off joint next to downtown Durham.

Not Main Line Philadelphia, as you would like to imagine with your "demands" that you always get things your way as if you can afford such a request.

Trinity Park is full of dimestore b!tches and their little WalMart husbands. Some teach at Duke.

All of us want, and most do, live in a comfortable environment, but you have to allow others freedom to live as well. The lacrosse players are entitled to have parties. They are college students, b!tch!

BTW, I read in the paper last week where some Trinity Park sow was complaining that a favorite establishment of hers had closed---because the wine there was $2.50 a glass and she could walk there from her home.

Big effing deal!! What a cheap drunk this Trinity Park sow is.

These are the types of people who live in Trinity Park and who have worked to damage the lacrosse players by having them singled out for police arrests.

You pieces of redneck Durham trash---who think you are "genteel"---are merely cheapskate hicks who want the world to conform to YOUR wishes.

Yet none of you are Donald Trump, so you use the local corrupt Durham police to do your work for you.

Like you, the simpleton cops are as envious of Duke athletes from the northeast as you are.

YOU HICKS are just as responsible for this travesty of justice as Mike Nifong and the racists in Durham.

But what goes around comes around. Maybe Duke enrollment is down because hip college students do not want to live in a town for 4 years alongside the hicks in Trinity Park!

Anonymous said...

"Can someone enlighten us about the hilarious Grand Jury system in North Carolina? No record of proceedings? No one showing evidence that some of the indicted weren't there when the phantom rape occurred? No fairness at all. What a joke North Carolina "justice" is becoming!"

That's the way grand juries operate across the country. It is not without reason that they say "You can get indictment for a ham sandwich in a grand jury." It is only the state's evidence that is heard (unless the prosecutor does not want to get an indictment, like in the case of a controversial self-defense claim or when a police officer is charged with a crime, in which case the prosecutor will soft pedal the evidence to the grand jury). That is one reason that ethically a prosecutor is supposed to seeek the truth, not just be an advocate for his client, the state. That is also what Nifong has lost sight of, among other things.

AMac said...

anon 5:59pm / 6:54pm --

Thanks for returning (6:54pm) and further explaining your point of view. FWIW, I don't think "ivory pedestal" syndrome is as widespread as you may imagine.

Anonymous said...

I am the author of 5:59 and 6:54. While I prefer to remain mostly-anonymous on the interweb (because I'm a working stiff and have found that my career has occasionally suffered for my public pronouncements on various topics), I am in principle willing to verify to someone that I am "merely" an interested public citizen who reads about this stuff in the papers from hundreds of miles away. A7:05 - you should consider that the nets are much larger than North Carolina before you go slinging the word "hick" around.

In principle, as I said. In practice, I'll probably forget the name of this blog as soon as my browser window closes and will vanish into the breeze. I enjoy a spirited debate as much as the next guy, but I had my fill of vituperative ad hominem attacks such as those by anonymous 7:05 back in the Usenet era.

That said, re
amac#1: agreed that it could have been anybody else, stipulated that the misconduct of others does not excuse my own, and proposed that perhaps this has inspired the other teams/fraternities/sororities at Duke and elsewhere to clean up their act for at least a little while. Maybe?

amac#2: I have even attended stripper clubs from time to time myself. Clubs are not quite the same thing as private parties, though. For one thing, clubs tend to have bouncers and generally try to keep things mostly legal. I concede that I don't know for certain that the party's organizers knew that the woman they hired was a prostitute -- but it beggars belief to insist that they thought she was chaste, and that all that anyone wanted to do was abstractly admire the unclothed female form.

amac#3: N/A

theman said...

Why does everyone here condemn Nifong? He has always stated that there was no matching DNA to the students and whatever she did before this rape is her business, not anyone elses. So the three were lucky enough not to leave DNA, Nifong will get some convictions. Why is everyone afraid of a trial, where 12 decide?

Anonymous said...

The Man--

Just shut up moron.

You are nothing more than a gadfly, idle, black racist.

theman said...

That was a real intelligent statement by 7:37, where are you hiding your brain. Did you leave at the office over the weekend?

Anonymous said...

Dear "the man"--

You have a great economy for words.

I'm looking forward to your next syllable.

Anonymous said...

Dick Brodhead sends G88 Kwanzaa greetings

AMac said...

anon 5:59pm/6:54pm/7:30pm --

Thanks for the thoughtful responses.

Anonymous said...

the man: why so angry?

You know you should be very careful with what you type, because you never know who will be looking for all of your posts to save.

Than later put them in a book of racist rants coming right out of Durham, for the world to see.

Have a Merry Christmas.

Materialist said...

I find the tone of some of these comments quite remarkable, but not surprising, since the same tone permeates so many of the press accounts and the "official" pronouncements from Duke. As a faculty member at a major (and famously liberal) university, I can assure you that if you were to come onto my campus and attempt to morally judge a young lady for working as a stripper, or even a prostitute ("sex worker" is the local pc term), you would be crucified by the local version of the "gang of 88", led by its female members. I am reasonably certain that the same was true at Duke one week before this event happened.

So working as a stripper must be treated as a perfectly reasonable "choice" a modern, sexually liberated girl might make. But utilizing the commercial services of such a person defines one to be a social deviant, prospective rapist, and so likely to be guilty of same as to be defenseless against any wild accusation that might be made. And all this in the name of "tolerance" ...
And while it is right and proper to damn the "bushies" for interfereing with our rights to recreational dope, these evil lacrosse players were actually drinking beer! And some of them were underaged!

Those of us who inhabit campuses live in strange times among very strange people.

Anonymous said...

I know it is a waste of time to debate theklanman but for anybody else who is tempted to think he is not just making things up, Nifong did not always say he had no
DNA, he promised the court that a negative result would clear the innocent

"The DNA evidence requested will immediately rule out any innocent persons, and show conclusive evidence as to who the suspect(s) are in the alleged violent attack upon this victim."

("Attachment For Application For Nontestimonial Identification Order," affiants David Saacks, Esq., Assistant District Attorney, and Investigator Benjamin Himan.)


so theklanman is lying, he knows what Nifong promised and has to make up facts, just like his hero does.

Anonymous said...

Hilarious that the poster "the man" says that what the old worn out whore Precious does is her business.

As she has sex with multiple strange men and is so nasty that she doesn't even change her underwear in between.

That walking body of waste called is an example as to why blacks carry AIDS like a plague in this country.

The Duke lacrosse players are full of hormones like all young guys, but they didn't want these ugly skanks. That was the beginning of the arguments at the March party.

What guy would want to pay $400 to watch Whoopie Goldberg and her sidekick undress and play with themselves? They was robbed!

Precious even has those pink soles on the bottom of her feet, along with jet black skin. Ugh!

Even the brothers prefer lighter skinned ho's.

The lacrosse players would not have touched this ugly thing with a ten foot pole, as I'm sure most decent black guys wouldn't have either.

This whole thing is like trying to make Whoopie Goldberg into Miss USA.

Face it. Precious is an ugly skank. The lacrosse players got gypped.

Big time!

Anonymous said...

theman,

first, there is not sufficient evidence to warrant a trial. remember, i accused you of being a rapist last night. and you didn't deny it. do you think a trial is necessary to sift through the allegation? of course not, that would be a waste of the court's time.

another, but more important reason that no one here wants a trial is because enough (but not all) of the black community has shown its unwillingness to approach this in a fair way. almost no black person in durham would hear this case and vote for an aquittal, which is all that this case mertis.

I'm sorry, but this case has unmasked the real goals of the "civil rights" movement and its time that white people recognize the danger that a fully diverse community poses.

WINDBAG

Anonymous said...

Does anyone else agree that its time for an N&O headline similar to the one they ran against the lax team last spring:

"NIFONG HAS SWAGGERED FOR YEARS"

I know if I were a defense attorney and Nifong or his office had convicted one of my clients, I'd ask for an investigtion and new trial. These people are unbelievable.

WINDBAG

Anonymous said...

Right on WINDBAG !!!

Anonymous said...

Chicago writes:

While running on the treadmill at the gym I was watching Fox News and they had a statement from Alberto Gonzalez (I think that is his name) and it said something about him launching something into the investigation. I do not want to say because it happened so fast and I only caught the end of it, but it sounds like he is at very least paying attention and commenting on the subject. That is good news indeed.

Victim in Massachusetts said...

If there is a lawyer with half a brain in Durham that had their client convicted on DNA evidence coming from the same lab that Meehan ran I would be beating down the doors to the appeal courts to have the conviction tossed and a new trial started now.

They now have the legal right to ask, now that we all know that Meehan is a screw up and his own DNA was in the mix of the accuser.

Man I can see Durham putting out the for sale sign for all the money they would have to pay for false imprisonment to any person that was sent up the creek

"NO MATTER THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN".

Anonymous said...

If Nifong wants to be ready for his close-up as he enters the slammer in his orange jumpsuit, he really must take a page from that other North Carolina opportunist homeboy, John Edwards, and get that big wart removed from his face.

Not camera ready. Not photogenic at all.

What is it with these little opportunist liberals?

We all can recall that big wart on the lip of John Edwards in the 2004 campaign, but he's been to a doctor since.

Now he's ready to run for el presidente!

Edwards just got back from an African tour hoping to come across as a "savior" before the 2008 election. He paid for a crash course in foreign policy. Of course, the countries he visited just HAD TO BE black.

I really don't think the black community is stupid enough to believe the crap from people like suck-up Nifong, Edwards, David Price, and the other liberals.

But no one will ever be able to pry a black person away from something free.

That ongoing quid pro quo between white liberals and blacks is the fundamental problem in this country.

And it is at the core of what allowed this Duke lacrosse case to progress.

No matter how the Democrat liberal supporters of these three guys wish to blow that fact away.

It's a fact.

Anonymous said...

Chicago writes:

Additional good news on Fox News tonight is that the two guys they had on completely slammed Broadhead, the group of 88 and the Board. While long over due, it was great to hear someone slam them on national television. I hope there is more to come of that.

Anonymous said...

For heavens sake, go away.

Anonymous said...

At least folk in Durham are expanding their vocabulary - credible - handlers - what next? This lab is putting a taint on DNA evidence - The DNA does not lie, but the regulatory board must insure this does not happen again.
Meehan has not only ruined himself professionaly but may be taking private DNA labs with him

Anonymous said...

"For heaven's sake, go away".


Above is the message on Mike and Cy Nifong's holiday card to Alberto Gonzales and the rest of us who demand JUSTICE.

Hehehehe.

Ain't gonna happen.

Anonymous said...

Actually, NC's grand jury system is worse than most. In most states (48 I believe) GJ hearings are recorded, in NC they are not. Amazingly, neither the testimony or deliberations are recorded in any manner. Some states require that the recording of the GJ proceeding be turned over to the defense. Additionally, NC also does not require the prosecution present exculpatory evidence to the GJ - this is a requirement in many states.

So, the ham sandwich statement is especially true in NC where 99.9% of time GJ's return a true bill of indictment. Something DOES need to change in this state.

Anonymous said...

To 9:29PM Poster
What would your choice be for CGM(aka Precious) Pro-Life or Pro-Choice ref aborting her current pregnancy in its earlier stages? Also Debrah, feel free to comment,

theman said...

To 8:23 You think that being too black is bad, what a racist remark. Nifong will get at least get on of the three charges against these nasty rapist to stick. Since you think they are ugly skanks, why did they rape her? She was trying to feed her family and get a college degree, she did not have the means to attend Duke. She is an honorable lady trying to feed her family and get a college degree and you call her an ugly skank. She deserves her day in court, for comments like that. These guys are going into the slammer, where rapist belong.

bill anderson said...

Dang! I go out for four hours, and the board goes wild.

I liked 6:54 PM's response to my rant, so we are even. I was a collegiate athlete myself, back when the drinking age was 18, and many of my teammates (track, University of Tennessee 1971-75) were not exactly gentlemanly, either. (I never was much of a party animal or strip watcher -- a really boring guy.)

But most of the LAX parents to whom I have spoken were not exactly thrilled with the strippers at the party, but CGM's false charges changed what should have been a situation in which some young men should have had a visit with the Dutch Uncle to one in which things exploded out of control.

I cannot blame the LAX players for what the Gang of 88, Nifong, and Brodhead have done. The LAX players are not full-grown adults, and many people reading this can say unequivocally that they were close to being jerks when they were that age. (Heck, I managed to extend my own jerkdom well into my 30s before starting to grow up.)

Granted, there are a few people around Durham who actually believe a rape occurred, but I suspect that many of them believe it because the alternative simply is too humiliating. After all, we had rally after rally, black ministers giving their speeches, and Victoria Peterson trying to find a new hat. Only people of high character would be willing to back off after seeing the evidence, and honest people of good character obviously are scarce in that pathetic city.

Yes, there are good people in Durham, white and black, liberal and conservative. I have heard from many who fit that description, but their voices of reason are drowned out by those of lesser character. We evem see a few of their ilk appear on these blogs.

theman said...

P.S. too all Nifong should be given a citation for his handling of this case not persecuted, like you all want.

GPrestonian said...

Prosecuted, not persecuted... ;>)

Anonymous said...

the man I want Nifong in federal prison so he better learn not to drop the soap.

DaveO said...

theman, what in the world is wrong with you? Don't you remember when Nifong stated publicly that the DNA tests would determine which of the LAX players committed the rape? That's saying the DNA matched some of the players, which turned out to be a lie.

Anonymous said...

Me thinks KC should execute theman!

Anonymous said...

I agree. He has been board jumping all night. He is a troll.

Kemper said...

Just returned from party, it is Christmas. A Federal Judge, old friend, said that the middle district of NC's US Attorney(USA) had opened a file on the Durham affair in May. He made it clear that everything Nifungu does is being watched. If you want to suggest to the Middle District USA that she take some action, you might give her a call: Anna Mills S. Wagoner, 336-333-5351. She will be the USA that would file against Nifungu for any violations of US code or Civil rights. He's toast!

Anonymous said...

Chesire's quote at April indictments:

"In North Carolina, you can indict a ham sandwich, for the murder of a pig." Old saying.

Sorry folks, no Pulitzer for anyone yet. You are not even close.

Start doing some real investigating, instead
of letting the DA lead you on a false trail, while the real crooks get-away.

Anonymous said...

Thanks to the poster who explained that North Carolina Grand Juries are different from those in other states. The fact that nothing is recorded is astonishing and scary. What Nifong has done strikes at the heart of the justice system in this country. Why won't the feds move on this?

GPrestonian said...

Interesting readering on Forensic Talk:

DNA, Semen Analysis, and Y-Chromosome Testing

bill anderson said...

If any of you want to get a sense of just what a hateful and putrid place Durham really is, you need to read the Change of Venue motion that the attorneys have submitted. (It can be found on the N&O web page.)

http://www.newsobserver.com/content/news/story_graphics/20061215_dukelacrosse.pdf

The document puts everything close together, so you can see what a hatefest that Duke University, the Durham Herald-Sun, the Durham Police, Michael Nifong, the black ministers, NCCU, and others managed to put on during the past nine months. It truly is a frightening and horrible thing.

I have had people write me to tell me that Durham really is a good place, and that the people there are fair. All you have to do is to read this document to know that Durham truly is an evil, evil place.

Even if Reade and Collin make it through this process without being convicted, neither of them ever could return to Duke University, as their lives would be in constant danger in Durham.

So, to all of you from Durham who have spoken out in defense of these young men, I give you my highest amount of respect, for you truly went against the tide.

GPrestonian said...

Bill

Agree wholeheartedly - reading the Venue Motion is disheatening.

I noted earlier that paragraphs 44-62, pages 18-25 detail just the heinous role of the Herald-Sun.

Anonymous said...

Bill, is there a link to that info. It sounds like something we all should read.

James said...

What "theman" doesn't seem to realize is that the accuser will get her day in court. Come the February hearing, the LAXers' attorneys' gloves will come off and FINALLY someone will take the time to test her credibility, something Nifong still hasn't done. I smell an evisceration.

Anonymous said...

Hey, it was even better on local TV.

Talk about stirring up the rabble.

Anonymous said...

here is the link to the change of venue motion

http://www.newsobserver.com/content/news/story/_graphics/20061215_dukelacrosse.pdf

Anonymous said...

Did anyone see SNL, Amy Poehler just tore apart Nancy Grace and the rest of the Hoax enablers? It's finally starting to come full circle?

Alan said...

I came into this at TalkLeft because I was foolish enough to contest a statement that the grand jury is an essential component of justice and the common law. Somewhere back in April I thought reminding Americans that the grand jury has been abolished in favour of the preliminary hearing in every jurisdiction outside the US would be the limit of my involvement. That was a foolish belief and I've ended up doing a lot of commenting.

That gives me a fairly unique persecutive as someone peering at the case from the other side of the Pacific.

Two things have struck me again and again. Your society is far too willing to assign blame on grounds of race or opinion and you legal system vests far too much discretion in prosecutors. My comments at the Liestoppers Board carry a quote from Nelson Mandela, addressing the International Association of Prosecutors at Capetown in 2000:

'The test of our commitment to a culture of rights lies in our ability to respect the rights not only of the weakest but also of the worst among us. ... I have never had the honour of being a prosecutor myself, though I have been prosecuted repeatedly and vigorously.'

I have been stunned by the level of vituperation directed on the basis of opinion and race. It seems to me the question should be whether these defendants committed this rape, not who they are or who the complaining witness is. Equally, it seems to me that a fair questioning of the media's disgraceful record would turn on what they say, not who they are.

I have been equally stunned by the doctrine of prosecutorial immunity, which is unknown in the common law world outside the United States. A succession of people, judges, journalists, politicians, commentators, took Nifong at his word merely because of the office he holds.

The grand jury, at least as it stands in North Carolina, is as ceremonial as Elizabeth II and a lot less attractive to look at. Bagehot would have called it a dignified part of the constitution like the ritual and grandeur that surrounds the monarchy. The effective decision-maker in NC indictments is the prosecutor who acts almost entirely without checks and without balances. No record of his acts before the grand jury means there is no way to hold him accountable.

Vesting a government official with that level of deference and immunity would have astonished Madison or Jefferson. It is incompatible with a culture of rights. And it needs to end.

Anonymous said...

Given DA Nifongs Strong-Arm Tactics Throughout this case, and Meehans Bizarre physical behavior on the stand, is it not possible that he didnt so much as conspire with nifong as be blackmailed? His behavior in court, figeting and nervous glances towards the DA may indicate that his testimony was given more to prevent an attack than reveal a conspiracy?

Just a thought. But when viewed in light of Nifongs PRevious ( and ongoing ) behaviour, can we really believe he wouldnt use such tactics Again? ( allegedly again? Suborning perjury again? however you want to frame it...)

Anonymous said...

What I always thought was so evil about the accusations and certain people's ability to accept them is that to believe them you not only have to beleive that three decent guys took an ugly stripper into a bathroom and ruthlessly raped her, but that they would do so in plain sight of their fellow, decent players, and not one of those players would do the right, honest, and personally expedient thing and rat them out.

Anonymous said...

The DOJ and Federal court should get the testimony of the Grand Jury. They apparantly were outright lied to by Gotleib and Haim. Nifong as DA and Lead Investigator was the one running this scam. Gotleib produced a false report for the court. The FEDs better step in soon because I can see the paper shredders in the DA and DPD working full time. They are probably erasing all emails and any other exculpatory evidence they have. For God sakes, Nifong already admitted to the DPD destroying the police recordings and tapes. Unfortunate for him his early pandering to the public has come back to haunt him. All the radio and news stations he released these tapes to have the recordings on file. I want to see the SWAT Team drag Nifong, Gottleib and Haim out of bed and drag them in handcuffs to be questioned. At this point a NC State Conspiracy to frame 3 innocent young men for political purposes in on the front burner. DOJ and FBI get in there now and retrieve your evidence before the criminals destroy it.

Anonymous said...

In February I can't wait to see the defense tear Crystal apart. She will cost the state of NC millions of dollars, she has destroyed the reputation and real estate values of Durham, she has tainted any true rape allegations, she has attempted to destroy 3 innocent young men and stolen a years of their and their families lives, she has caused untold pain and heartache to their friends and family. Crystal justice will be served and you will rot in jail for a very long time. Go ahead just try and perjure yourself on the stand, it will only make your prison sentence much longer. Or you can tell the truth on the stand and possible make a plea deal with the state so they can nail Nifong. Either you go down big time with Nifong or you try and save your ass by telling the truth for once in your life. Times running out.

Anonymous said...

BillO'Reilly has a body language expert on his show occasionally. It would be great if she gave the public her expert opinion of the last televised court appearance, I beleive it was back in July of Nifong. I remember he kept wringing his hands, wiping his brow, smirking even when a black Panther threatened Reade's life, he rolled his eyes, and even put his head on the table. The press commented on strange Nifong's actions were in the court room. I would love to see what she thinks of this behavior. Even CIA terrorist interviewers use body language as a tool. If anyone knows Bill O'Reilly see if they can have this women do Nifong.

Anonymous said...

Alan at 1:54,

Every point you made is correct and important. Major reform is required, especially in NC whose residents seem to enjoy even fewer protections from a rogue prosecutor than the residents of most states. It is time to put the house in order.

Observer

Anonymous said...

I'm not completely sure on the timeline of when this happened, and I am heading to bed, so I won't be googling it. If the alleged victim is due to give birth in jan or feb, does that not push the time she aparently conceived this child into the days, or even weeks after the supposed rape?

GPrestonian said...

1:54am Alan:

Good comments, Alan. You said:

"I have been stunned by the level of vituperation directed on the basis of opinion and race. It seems to me the question should be whether these defendants committed this rape, not who they are or who the complaining witness is."

Alan, the race-baiting started on Day One, with the AAAS faculty leading the Group of 88, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and the New Black Panthers.

Nifong was up for election, and desparately needed the black vote, so he visited NCCU (black college) and stirred the pot.

Anonymous said...

Charles A. Harris where are you? Please contact k.c.

Michelle from Madison said...

You-Tube Video: Duke Lacrosse - LAST STAND
Willie Nelson song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFVvCpgH4CQ&mode=related&search=



You-Tube Video: SNL Nancy Grace - Duke Lacrosse
Holiday Message from Nancy Grace.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YycOd4dJd40&mode=related&search=

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