Saturday, January 13, 2007

Reactions

[update, 7.30pm] Liestoppers has a lengthy post examining the troubled background of the new chief prosecutors of the case, Jim Coman and Mary Winstead.

The connection of Coman to the Gell case in particular raises eyebrows. It's unfortunate that the AG's office could not have located an ethically pristine prosecutor to undertake the review, in part because one issue on the table will be exposing possible instances of further misconduct by Nifong. As Jim Coleman pointed out in an interview today, the new prosecutor will be obligated to turn over any evidence of ethical improprieties to the state bar.

[update, 4.20pm] AG Roy Cooper has officially taken over the case. Lara Setrakian of ABC's Law and Justice Unit reports that Cooper said "anything can happen" with the case from here on out.

Also provided: more comments from Nifong's critic-turned-attorney, David Freedman, who described his client as "devastated" by the turn of events. "It's devastating to him," Freedman said. "He cherishes his reputation as an ethical attorney and prosecutor." And, in a bizarre line, Freedman states that Nifong spoke to the accuser directly, because "he is very loyal to her."

Thomas Lunsford, a member of the North Carolina Bar Ethics Committee and a professor at Duke Law School, termed the whole situation "extremely rare, if not unprecedented," with a sitting DA prosecuted for ethics violations in a case he was originally prosecuting.

On FOX last night, Congressman Walter Jones said that Nifong's recusal would only intensify his demands for a federal civil rights investigation, and that he has requested a personal meeting with AG Gonzales to discuss the issue.

Victoria Peterson gave a press conference on the courthouse steps demanding that Nifong remain on the case.

Nifong's attorney, David Freedman, said that Nifong acted because "he wants to make sure the accuser receives a fair trial." Only in Durham.

On behalf of Duke, John Burness issued a strong and commendable statement: "We welcome the news that the district attorney has asked to be removed from this case. As President Brodhead has emphasized, this matter needs to be placed in the hands of an independent party who can restore confidence in the fairness and integrity of the legal process. We hope this change will lead to a fair and speedy resolution of this case."

Jim Coleman, in the Washington Post: "Everyone just got run over by this guy who made these statements for which there was no support." Nifong "prejudged the case and injected inflammatory opinions that it was racially motivated," Coleman said, but "he had not done the investigation, so he had no idea what happened."

Joseph Cheshire, in the Washington Post: "We are extremely pleased to be rid of" Nifong. "The word of the accuser changes every time she opens her mouth. Anybody who takes an objective look at this case will dismiss it."

Peg Dorer, director of NC Conference of DA's: "It has really become so much more about him as opposed to seeking justice."

Mary Katharine Ham offers a video review of what did not happen in Durham.

Coleman, in the L.A. Times: With his actions in the case, "Nifong is showing total contempt for the legal process. This guy has caused more damage in this city than anything I can recall."

Jackie Brown, in the L.A. Times: "He got caught up in the media, and he got addicted to it."

The Daily News headline, an openly mocking, "May I Be Recused? Nifong Wants Off Duke Lacrosse Case."

Hat tip: T.Y.

204 comments:

1 – 200 of 204   Newer›   Newest»
gs said...

"he (Nifong) wants to make sure the accuser receives a fair trial."

Wow I thought the goal was for the accused to have a fair trial?

I guess everyone outside of Durham had it wrong all these years.

Anonymous said...

JLS said,

Interesting panel and the Congresman too.

I thought Allred saying that she was glad the NC DAs passed a resolution about Nifong and that he recused was big news to me. Then she started spouting about now both sides may get a fair trial.

wayne fontes said...

Victoria Peterson gave a press conference on the courthouse steps demanding that Nifong remain on the case.

KC how many people were at the press conference? Where can I find out more? What did she say it must have been important.

Anonymous said...

ALSO ON FOX TONIGHT: WENDY MURPHY IN A CONSTANT STATE OF SURPRISE, COURTESY OF BOTOX OVERDOSE. THANKFULLY, SHE WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT DUKE CASE.

Anonymous said...

Speedy is right. A normal prosecutor would take one long at this and dismiss in disgust.

-Esquire-
-Maryland-

Chicago said...

I can only imagine what a fool Victoria Peterson made of herself tonight. I can't wait to hear what this woman, who has no legal experience what so ever could possibly have stated.

Anonymous said...

ALSO ON FOX TONIGHT: WENDY MURPHY IN A CONSTANT STATE OF SURPRISE, COURTESY OF BOTOX OVERDOSE. THANKFULLY, SHE WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT DUKE CASE.

well read her latest kc has the link in the previous post

Anonymous said...

"he (Nifong) wants to make sure the accuser receives a fair trial."

Rigggght. Nifong is worried about his own trial.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if the Black "community" honestly thinks Nifong has a legitimate case versus revenge for past injustice, reverse racism towards white people, etc.

Either choice, humiliating ignorance or vile hatred, is hardly flattering.

Mr. Underhill

highcotton said...

The moral issues in this case are universal in nature. The legal issues are national in scope. But, as always, the 'politics' is local....

With that in mind, I emailed Chancellor Gee of Vanderbilt University asking for an explanation of the decision to offer (the despicable) Houston Baker 'academic refuge', as it were. It is humiliating that this intellectual charlatan has been welcomed with open arms at VU.

If you have any connection with Vandy -- or if you're just a concerned citizen of TN -- I urge you to repeat the question so many times that he will be compelled to answer it.

The professor has his hands full taking care of the larger issues. It's up to the rest of us to help handle the "details". Letting these creatures crawl out of the Duke swamp to infest other academic ponds would be a travesty!

Anonymous said...

Interesting information in the NY Times article posted tonight. Apparently Nifong had decided to jump ship before he met with CGM and she still decided to move forward with the case. A pretty good article. From the NY Times. Surprising.

Anonymous said...

It must be the case that Victoria Peterson goes weeks or months without exposure to anyone with a modicum of intelligence. Let's see - her good buddy Fong admits in writing the NC Attorney General that he is conflicted out of the case and cannot continue. So this expert on homosexual behavior and public health maintains that he ought to stay on the case nevertheless, thus guaranteeing the loss of her buddy's law license (that will be gone anyway) and the planting of the 101st nail in the coffin that is this sexual assault case aka hoax aka racist fantasy of her dreams? She may not be able to deal with lack of smarts, but she sure as heck can be honest. Why not just admit that this is a personal tragedy for her because no other prosecutor will let the radioactive nut job that is Victoria Peterson anywhere near this case, and that accordingly she will have to munch on potato chips and drink soda in the back row of the courthouse along with ordinary citizens?

Anonymous said...

Ok how about we comprise here. Nifong should stay on this case till the 6th of February.

Anonymous said...

CGM was "concerned about Nifong's career"??? What selfless compassion!

Anonymous said...

JLS says....

re: Mr. Underhill

Even "Cousin Jackie" on Van Sustren tonight said she felt Nifong was using Mangum to win the election. I think many people in Durham know they have been played. I think the few holdouts don't care but want some revenge for perceived past wrongs.

bill anderson said...

It gets curiouser and curiouser.

Look for Crystal to turn on the Fong, and then things go full circle. Sit back and enjoy the show. K.C. provides the narration, while Fong and Crystal provide the entertainment.

Anonymous said...

JLS says...

re: 11:41

Again Mangum does not get to decide ANYTHING. She is not a party to the case. Of course she did not make a confession in his office that she had filed a false charge.

That means nothing. Nifong could have dropped the case at any time. He could have not gone to the grand jury. Mangum is not a party to NC v. Evan, Finerty and Seligmann. Do you see her name there any place?

Anonymous said...

Bill: Exactly!! She's going to hang him out to dry.

-Esquire-
-Maryland-

Michael said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gs said...

I wonder if Meghan may finger the two DPD investigators who went with Nifong to see Meehan.

If they were in the room when all this was agreed to, they are part of the conspiracy.

Anonymous said...

JLS says..

re: Bill Anderson and Esquire

I think Mangum might be Nifong's ace in the hole. She will likely tell some demonstrable lie against him too and that might be enough for him to weasle of the hook some. I doubt he gets away clean with his license or being DA, but Mangum probably has more lies in her and if she turns on Nifong will likely make another error.

Cedarford said...

Speaking of reactions, I have the learned opinion of a legal expert commenting on the Duke Case Implosion. Wendy Murphy,JD, former sex crimes prosecutor, law professor, New England School of Law.

Better known to mankind as Psycho-bitch

http://wilmingtonjournal.blackpressusa.com/news/Article/Article.asp?NewsID=75379&sID=12

Psycho-bitch, err...distinguished law professor Murphy, that is...has several marvelous quotes that should serve to anchor her already well-deserved service for giving New England School of Law it's reputation and public face.

Briefly: (1)All the lawyers and cops and medical professionals involved in the case have not objected to what Nifong is doing, so what he is doing must be right.
(2) The prosecution wasn't political. Going after the Dukies COST Nifong votes.
(3) Murphy believes the photo lineup was perfectly proper. Perhaps going back to her days of waving anatomically correct dolls at young kids and demanding to know if the "bad man" resembling the doll stuck his pee-pee in after 1st flying the kid to Mars in a spacecraft and putting a samurai sword all the way into their "private places".
(4)It's not Nifong that is hiding anything. The Defense has refused to divulge the 1,000 pages of info they are now hiding from the prosecution.

There's lots more...lots more.

Psycho-bitch, spreading the name New England School of Law far and wide..adding to Fox, CBS, MSNBC's reputatio, too. Giving new luster to the fading ranks of men-hating feminazis.

Anonymous said...

JLS - yes but Bill Anderson is spot on about the issue of Mangum and Nifong being at odds. What a delicious irony - Nifong will be taking the same tack as the defense - questioning Mangum's credibility!

Anonymous said...

JLS says....

re: 11:59

Himan has the best out. He was a 6 mo. or less dectective when this case started. He can turn on Nifong, Gottlieb and Linwood and say he was the rookie and did not have enough experience to know not to do what these experienced investigators and the experienced DA told him to do.

Also Himan was less in on the fix. Compare his notes on the interview with Mangum at her house with Gottlieb's fairly tale made up months later.

Anonymous said...

JLS says....

re: 12:02

Of course I see the irony. And while the irony is great, I would rather see Nifong pay in full. Other prosecutors around the country need this shot across their bow.

Anonymous said...

Case synopsis:

No evidence of rape. Accuser was wearing a Fong.

Anonymous said...

Cedarford: Ah, you caught the famous Wendy Murphy line. When in doubt, just shift the burden.

Wendy Murphy is a classic, terrible prosecutor. She seems incapable of understanding that it is the STATE that has the burden to prove that crime has been committed. It is NOT the Defendant's burden to prove that he did not commit a crime.

This shifting can be powerful if it is used against young attorneys who are not savvy enough to object properly, but it goes badly with more experienced lawyers. In terms of TV, it sells well to the great unwashed masses.

It does not impress other lawyers, and I see that it does not impress you either. It is an intellectually bankrupt argument that flies in the face of black letter law.

Well done.

-Esquire-
-Maryland-

Guaunyu said...

"Look for Crystal to turn on the Fong, and then things go full circle. Sit back and enjoy the show. K.C. provides the narration, while Fong and Crystal provide the entertainment."

Hmmm. Here's how that might play out...

(Step 1) AG's Office get's the case and either drops it outright or assigns it to another DA's Office (which they are permitted to do) which then drops it.

(Step 2) Mangum gets good and pissed (and you wouldn't like her when she's angry - just ask the poor guys of the Duke Lacrosse Team).

(Step 3) Mangum starts looking for a way to vent that anger.

(Step 4) She sees the blood in the water surrounding Mike's floating body.

(Step 5) Game on.

Anonymous said...

Can you see her story changing already:

"Mike Nifong locked me in a bathroom and had his way with me. A detective handed him a towel through the door, and he wiped all DNA evidence off of me, but the seven other guy's DNA remained. I then performed a dance for his entertainment, wrote out a new statement as instructed and left. Can I have pain medication?"

-Esquire-
-Maryland-

Anonymous said...

JLS says...

Very good Esquire. Mangum's pattern is one of false rape claims against people she does not know well followed by a false claim of a non sex crime against someone close like her husband trying to kill her.

I would guess it might go. Nifong made me ID those four boys. He told me who to pick. They yelled at me when I pick the wrong one first. He kidnapped me and would not let me see my family for months on end.

He also would not let me go out and earn drugs or money for drugs. I mean he cause me so much pain can I have some pain killer now.

Cedarford said...

Anonymous 12:24 and Esquire - you gotta laugh. Ordinarily you would just want a skank like her to slink away - but she has done enormous damage, and it is her 2nd false rape accusation.

She deserves to be an object of scorn and derision the rest of her life and made an example of as a false accuser that wrecked lives and careers. Her "rape shield" better fall.

(And for satisfaction as a lifetime irritant to the racist radical blacks who sought to elevate her to a "Nubian Princess" defiled by Whitey. She is plenty defiled all right, about as low a creature as exists, and I hope she stays just as she is other than getting her tubes tied so no more parasites emerge and her lifetime earnings are garnished to pay some wealthy white legal firm that gets a judgement against her)

Anonymous said...

Alan Freedman's remarks can soon do for defense attorneys what Nifong's remarks did for prosecutors. He needs to go to the Wade Smith, Joe Cheshire school.
Kennedy, from UNC Law, is not credible to me. You should review some of his comments about the Peterson trial. He seems very disconnected from the real legal world.

Anonymous said...

Freedman sound like a real genius. He and Nifong deserve each other.

Anonymous said...

Durham residents -
I thought it was none of our business. Guess we should have left it to the locals.

Anonymous said...

Very well stated by the NC AG.

That was a real lawyer, folks. This case will be guided by the light of the law and the evidence. Carefully stated, and well said. He will meet with defense counsel. A backhanded slap to Nifong, also carefully phrased.

-Esquire-
-Maryland-

Anonymous said...

What's this I read about someone being a bit nonplussed.......disoriented.......perplexed.......out of sorts.......with a case of internet jet lag.....

......concerning the timelines of KC's posts?


Seems someone has lost that lovin' feelin' for our dear KC.

Oh my.

****** Although we can't bring back the hour of splendor in the grass......glory in the flower. We must grieve not, rather find strength in what is left behind..... *******

:>)

Debrah

Anonymous said...

Ou sont les neiges d'antan?

GPrestonian said...

3:11pm -Esquire-:

More like a real politicn, Esquire! But I'll agree he made all the right noises.

Quick Cooper presser recaps:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070113/ap_on_re_us/duke_lacrosse

Anonymous said...

Where are the snows of yesteryear?
Is this about global warming? Have you seen the weather? It is snowing all over the place... in the west and midwest...

Anonymous said...

"he (Nifong) wants to make sure the accuser receives a fair trial."

His only hope is to retain any level of favor with Durham's Black commuity. - If he doesn't end up in jail, he'll need that base to launch his run or Congress - which will be the only career path left for him.

-mark these words.

gs said...

Now will DPD Investiigators and Wilson actual talk to the new DAs?

They should be worried about possible charges. Did they help Nifong frame the kids? Who ran the lineup against his dept rules? Who wrote of notes from memory that other DPD notes say are not true? Who went with Nifong to see Meehan? Who wrote up the Dec 21 patch of lies?

I wonder who will be the first to turn on Nifong to save themselves?

Anonymous said...

3:27pm--Ole Mikey needs favor with the black community in Durham not only if he wants to live there in peace , but if he wants to keep hubcaps on his "ride".

hehehe

Anonymous said...

"New York State of Mind"---

I left a late reply to your post over on the "Coleman Reaction" thread.

I returned quite late and almost missed your studied opinions.

K?

Debrah

Anonymous said...

3:32, you apparently got confused. This is a Duke lacrosse case blog, not a David Duke blog.
Comments like yours are just plain ignorant.

Anonymous said...

KC,

Please do not give any more links to that underrated hottie, M Ham. She's too much of a carnal distraction.

I'd like a ham and cheese sandwich.--get my drift?--lol

RP

Michael said...

re: 12:15 Esquire

Freedman would go to LS and find the picture of CGM giving him a big hug. For some strange reason, he had a huge grin on his face. Cy
probably had him take 20 or 30 showers before letting him into the house. Of course she'd burn the clothes that he had on at the time.

Anonymous said...

Hey, Nifong finally interviewed the accuser. Sadly, even Mike gets it now. He can't win with blatantly fraudulent charges. He was hoping SHE would change her mind and drop the case, thus allowing him to cling to ANYTHING in the way of mitigation as he heads for his own trial. But alas, you play with the bull, sooner or later, you get the horns...

Charlie said...

This may be a bit tangential to the topic, but could someone with a legal background explain to me why the accuser continues to enjoy anonymity in the press, given that the charge of rape has been dropped? I could speculate, but I am interested as to whether the major news outlets covering the story have decided, purposefully, to continue to maintain her anonymity.

Anonymous said...

CGM probably thought "They'll never shhe to my lies, I covered the timeline, the DNA and photos".

A mind is a trouble thing to waste. Maybe she could get her college money back.. They failed to teach her anything.

She manage to erase any possiblity that the DA was just using her. She is an active party to framing 3 people. She needs a good lawyer at this point.

Anonymous said...

3:52

She still claims to be a victim of sexual assualt.

Anonymous said...

Because the politically correct MSM protects scumbags like her.

Had she been a white prostitute accusing black basketball players her picture would have been on NY Times front page news for weeks.

Anonymous said...

Incredibly, Ms. Filan on the boob-tube stated - "this shows that the legal system works"

What's wrong with this picture ?

This blog and 1/2 dozen others played the major role in 'righting' the failed legal and established media systems.

- these same blogs that "McFly Brodhead" writes off as "hate-mail" and as equivalent 'evils' to the legal abuse these 3 young men suffered.

The blogs ARE WHAT WORKED. All "institutions of responsibility" FAILED, up to this point.

Now, let's see what they're made of.

Anonymous said...

Any reaction or press release from Gang88 or did they join Cindy Sheehan for her trip to Cuba?

GPrestonian said...

3:54 Anon:

"...could someone with a legal background explain to me why the accuser continues to enjoy anonymity in the press, given that the charge of rape has been dropped?"

While the laws are commonly called 'rape shield laws', they usually apply to any crime involving sexual assault (however defined).

The media isn't generally subject to these laws, but most decline to identify the accuser for obvious privacy reasons. The laws are intended to limit the extent to which the defence can introduce prior sexual conduct in the course of a trial.

Anonymous said...

Great stuff, KC. As a non-lawyer, I was hoping somebody could please lay out the potential for lawsuits by Seligmann, Finnerty, and Evans against the university, apart from possible additional grade manipulation?

Also, now that Nifong has asked to be, and hopefully will be, recused, does this make him safe from prosecutorial misconduct charges?

Anonymous said...

Now that Nifong has hired a lawyer to represent him in the misconduct charges filed by the Bar, this reminds me of words spoken by an infamous person in Durham.
1. One has to wonder why he (Mr. Nifong) would need a lawyer if he is innocent of the charges.
2. In Durham, you're considered guilty until proven innocent.
3. I am absolutely convinced that something (misconduct) occurred, yes sir.

Anonymous said...

4:00:

exactly. Drive by media gave its best but eventually it was beaten by the blogs, especially by K.C.

This has been very much like Rathergate. However, it is frightening to think that in these cases the evidence was absolutely obvious. What if the coverup (and forgeries) would have been better framed?

Luckily we had totally incompetent prosecutor and accuser with below average IQ (again, close resemblence to rathergate).

Anonymous said...

anyone know if malodorous Miss Precious will be indicted for filing a false police report?

After all, there is reasonable cause for such an action.

RP

PS Could
Precious's false accusation fall under federal hate-crime statutes?

Anonymous said...

Bill Anderson-
Thanks for a nice recap and perspective...
Michael Nifong’s Spaghetti Factory

Anonymous said...

Here's my prediction:

New prosecutor takes the case, Feb. 5th hearing goes on as scheduled.

At the hearing, CGM either takes the 5th on everything or answers a few questions from the new prosecutor that make it clear that there is no identification and then takes the 5th. Either way, the case against the boys is dimissed, but there is effectively no cross by the defense. This is very likely the substance of the last discussions Nofing had with her -- his last direct coaching session.

After the hearing, the new prosecutor puts out a statement that indirectly apologizes to the boys and blames the false identification on mental problems of the accuser -- essentially casting her as a victim of circumstance beyond her control without blaming Nofing or anyone else. Perhaps some acknowlegdement of how much damage has been done all the way around -- a tradgedy, time for healing, etc. Pledges that lessons will be learned and the system will be fixed. Look for legislation with an impressive sounding name that actually doesn't do all that much to change anything, before the next election cycle. Laws are made by lawers and this is a profession that does very well under the existing regime.

No criminal charges against CGM, her reward for cooperating in ending this (only the state can bring criminal charges) and for not rolling over on anyone.


I'm less sure about how things play out for DPD and DA's office.
I would not bet on criminal charges against anyone from the local jurisdiction or State. I'm not very hopeful on any Federal investigation either but this is the best hope for getting to the bottom of things. I just don't think many people in power want to get to the bottom of this one and they are very practiced at directing public opinion to their own ends. There have been lots of employee meetings lately and it is a good bet it has been made clear that this is to be kept in the family.

As to the bar complaint, my guess is a negotiated settlement announced after a closed hearing or perhaps even sooner.
It is possible the DA voluntarily surrenders his license; at this point it is worthless anyway except that he needs this to retain his job. If he realizes everything he makes going forward is just going to be payed out in civil damages, this may now be less important to him than it was when this all started.


This leaves only civil damages to settle. This is likely to be the best hope for any real justice here. Much of this may be negotiated as well. The taxpayers will wind up paying for the vast majority of everything -- and in Durham, Duke/Duke Hospital/Duke payroll/Duke etc. is by far the largest taxpayer. About the best one can realistically hope for is that CGM can't profit from selling movie rights -- but the family probably can anyway so she still wins, on top of her "Don't Strip Scholarship".

Nofing should be financially destroyed but I'm not certain this will happen. In my opinion, he deserves much worse. Most of the enablers get off untouched and society at large doesn't learn the lessons that are here. No one in any position to publicize any of this asks the hard questions or does much more than accept the official version of events and interpretations. Somewhere down the line, something very similar happens somewhere else.


As for the enablers, most of them learn to be a bit more sophisticated but there are no conversions. Perhaps a few who were young and naieve learn something and the ranks of the next generation of professional victims and enablers is thinned just a bit, but there is a large population here and recruiting followers doesn't seem to be a problem. Others learn that this is a good route to fame and fortune. The producers in Society, as always, bear the burden.

Anonymous said...

"Mike Nifong locked me in a bathroom and had his way with me. A detective handed him a towel through the door, and he wiped all DNA evidence off of me, but the seven other guy's DNA remained.

Hey, Esquire, wanna have some fun with Math??

CGM's (utterly innocent) daughter was born on Wednesday, January 3rd.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,241505,00.html

Most people think babies take 40 weeks (or 9 months) but that's not quite true. 40 weeks are counted from the approximate first day of the mom's last menstrual period. Conception is 2 weeks later. So if we use our handy dandy pregnancy date calculator

http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/923526833.html

put in Jan 3rd as the due date and work backwards, we get a conception date of April 12.

Now what happened on or about April 12??? What could that be.... Hmmmm... Oh, yes I remember.

"Nifong has said in court that nearly a month after the party, the woman was in his office and appeared too traumatized to talk about what had happened to her. Nifong said that throughout the April 11 meeting with Nifong and police investigators, the woman seemed near tears and had trouble making eye contact."

So, OF COURSE CGM was "concerned about Nifong's career." She wants at least one of her baby daddy to have a job.

--Cynic--

Anonymous said...

I'm more optimistic about getting Precious.

She's stupid.

And you know what they say about stupid people.

Anonymous said...

4:31:
heh.

I think Nifong should be forced to take the paternity test.

Anonymous said...

So does Nifong's recusal mean he can now be called as a defense witness when they try to discredit the lineup and the resulting IDs?

It'd be great to get on video Nifong being served with a defense subpoena outside the courthouse on his way to lunch. Sweet!

Anonymous said...

Rescue Me

http://us.imdb.com/title/nifong-gets-his/

Mike Nifong deals with the fears of his job as a crooked district attorney and seeing his star witness pole dancing and pleasuring other men.

Anonymous said...

If I was the defense I would serve him to explain the meetings with Meehan. Not as his role as DA but as lead investigator for the case.

Lets not forget the new DAs will have to interview the "lead investigator" in the case. You can bet the DNA & Meehan will come up. Does Mike take the 5th. His lawyer would probably tell him to take the 5th.

Should be fun.

Anonymous said...

Nifong said that throughout the April 11 meeting with Nifong and police investigators, the woman seemed near tears and had trouble making eye contact."

So CGM got pregnant within a few days after this meeing - where she was so traumatized she couldn't even talk about the party.

Or, she got pregnant at the meeting itself.

Yeah, Nifong should take a paternity test, but it could be Gottleb. They might not even know, between them. That's probably what CGM and Nifong were talking about all day Thursday and Friday.

Anonymous said...

CGM really thinks that at this point she can keep making up stories. An now she will have to tell a story to real DAs who will ask followup questions.. She's heading for jail.

Detroit Rock City said...

It goes without saying that it's a wonderful thing Mike Nifong is off this case. It's a wonderful thing that he faces repercussions for the damage he has wrought.

That said, Dorothy Rabinowitz made an important point in her Wall Street Journal op-ed this week: Nifong is a symptom, not the disease.

I fear that the venom that's been personally directed toward Nifong over the past many months has obscured what should be the true target of wrath: what Rabinowitz describes as "the sanctified status now accorded charges involving rape, child sex-abuse and accusations of racism."

Nifong was merely an opportunist, jumping aboard a ready-made platform built from decades of American PC culture and its convoluted semantics of race. The problem isn't Nifong's opportunism; the problem is that the opportunity exists.

It's too easy to blast him, for instance, because he "pandered" to lock up "the black vote." The harder question in this example is why is there this thing called "the black vote" in the first place? Why can it be obtained through "pandering"? Why do we perceive it as a standard feature of the American landscape, and reference it with little comment?

Throughout this past half-year, it was crucial, even morally imperative, to highlight Nifong's recklessness. The lives of three real people were in the balance. But now that the fait has been accompli'd, I'd urge everyone to step back from the Nifong bashing and use the existing momentum and spotlight to dig deeper into all this -- to scrutinize that platform he leapt upon, and ask ourselves what we can do about tearing it down.

Anonymous said...

Roy Cooper will try this case
Looking to run for Govenor
Looking to keep his name in the media
Seems he retried a murder case where the prosecution had witheld info(which he claimed was negligent of them) and where the defendant was supposedly in prison at the time of the alleged murder
Cooper's reasoning when asked "What's the reason for retrying a guy who couldn't possibly have done it?" asked Jim Coleman, a Duke University law professor. "He can't just say, 'We have some reason, but we're not going to tell you what it is.'
Seems Cheshire may have been the defendant's lawyer and the defendant, Alan Gell, went free

Anonymous said...

detroit rock city (5:14):

You are absolutely correct. There's a lot of cynicism that maintains many protagonists will walk away unscathed.

Who's going to hold the MSM to account? Who's going to hold our beloved legal profession to account? Who's going to hold the NAACP, ACLU, and the Group of 88 to account? I fear no one.....except KC!!!! I for one will follow him into battle.

Anonymous said...

PROSECUTOR ACCUSED IN NYC CALL GIRL BIZ
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SEX_IN_THE_CITY?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2007-01-13-17-10-38
Hey if it can happen in NY it can happen in Durham! Who can check into Nifong's relationship with Bunnyhole?

Anonymous said...

"While the laws are commonly called 'rape shield laws', they usually apply to any crime involving sexual assault (however defined)."

JLS says...

This is a common error that I try to correct whenever I see it. Rape shield laws are about not admitting irrelevant past sexual behavior in a rape or sexual assault trial. For example:

1. Evidence that a 15 year old girl had had sex is irrelevant to whether or not some one jumped out of the bushes and pulled her back in and raped her.

2. On the other hand if the 15 year old and her boy friend regularly engaged in that sexual behavior, that might well be relevant.

Mangums name is a matter of public record although some rape shield laws require the courts to remove the alledged victims name from postings of court documents. To testify she must come into court give her name and take the oath. Trials in this country are public.

The US Constitution prohibits limits on the press publishing Mangum's name. But the mainstream press has a long tradition going back before the days of modern PC self censorship.

M. Simon said...

Isn't the proper term re:CGM fair hearing rather than fair trial?

Does Freedman expect her to be brought up on charges?

M. Simon said...

Mr. Mr. Underhill 1128PM,

I think a good read on that is that two people showed up for Petersen's Rally for Justice.

M. Simon said...

GS 1159PM,

Meehan is going to try to salvage what he can. He is the first crack in the dam.

If the two investigators were in the room (can't imagine why not)they are toast.

So then one of them breaks and the DPD starts crumbling. I'm thinking it could turn out like the Rampart scandal in LA.

Odds are there will be a LOT of cases of shoddy police work that come to light.

Anonymous said...

5:14

Roman Polanski has a good post on KC's "Bipartisan" thread, posted at 1:40pm.

It relates to your observations.

Check it out.

Anonymous said...

CGM would be a FOOL to press on, if she takes the stand and lies (which she wold have to), then the crime of filing a false police report becomes perjury, which (as a non-lawyer) I beleive is far worse. Regardless, if I were the Duke 3, I would go after her in civil court, not becasue she has a lot fo money now, but if she ever does make a living, they'll have a right to keep it, and make her pay for many years the shame she put them through. The boys will get their financial reimbursement from the State, Duke and hopefully Mr. Nifong himself....

Anonymous said...

How is she supporting herself and her 3 kids?

bill anderson said...

Trust me, the families do plan to sue Crystal in civil court. That I do know.

I do not think any prosecutor save Fong would take someone to court as the ONLY source of evidence who has told as many stories as has Crystal. Fong had other motives, but I really do not think that any other prosecutors in North Carolina wish to run the risk of being disbarred.

(Granted, it must take a heck of a lot in that state to get disbarred if one is a prosecutor, but there is just too much publicity here. Fong wanted publicity, but it became a case of "be carefor for what you wish, because you just might get it."

Anonymous said...

Read LieStoppers, Saturday, January 13, 2007, for some history on Jim Coman and Mary Winstead, the AG prosecutors. It's all one big game and government paychecks for all.

Anonymous said...


How is she supporting herself and her 3 kids?


Same as usual. Support from the alleged fathers of her children, welfare checks, turning tricks. Girl's gotta live.

Anonymous said...

CGM does not likely see the train that is about to hit her (though I suspect people like Jessse Jackson, Black Panthers, etc will try to come to her rescue). I wonder if she has lied to the IRS (also a crime). I am willing to bet she does not claim the money she makes on her "exotic dancing" or money made on any other "exotic" activities..

Anonymous said...


I am willing to bet she does not claim the money she makes on her "exotic dancing" or money made on any other "exotic" activities..


Oh we can be certain she claims it.

Whether she reports it to the IRS is another thing entirely.

Anonymous said...

While this may seem off subject, I think it speaks to the larger issue and what is causing us to blog on this article: it's neo-racism. Haven’t we learned that racism just doesn’t work? Look what happen to the NAZI’s? What about the KKK? So, I find it ironic that we now find some African-Americans in positions of power or influence, victims of racism; and those who curry their support, have now become active racist themselves. I believe they feel (consciously or unconsciously) it’s a fitting form of reparation to subject some whites to the same injustices they or their ancestors experienced. They somehow think this reverse hatred will right past or present wrongs. This neo-racism highlighted by the jury in the OJ Simpson trail and most recently seen with the Duke legal case is becoming tiresome and many are starting to say enough is enough, as they begin to realize that racism is not just a “white thing” perpetrated on blacks and other minorities. I take comfort that the general public is now starting to recognize these racists. As an opponent of all racism, I think if we’re going to coexists as a society we need to get over the race thing and come together as one. Instead of following the tenants of Adolph Hitler and David Duke, on the eve of Dr Martin Luther King’s birthday, I think these racists within the African-American community and those who support them, need to listen to another King who said "People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?"

Anonymous said...

7:07 PM
True, racism is universal. No society of group is immune. Individuals need to rise above it.

Anonymous said...

KC,
I been out of touch, hunting, but this afternoon I talked to my bar buddy.

Nifungu found religion after he hired Friedman. Friedman told him cut your loses, your are F**ked. Mikey is so stupid, unc grad, that he had no clue. This will delay the dismissal until all the Democrats can CYA. May is dismissal date, oh and Mikey is going to trial in may. then the feds will perp walk him Rae Evan's is right, you picked the wrong families to mess with and you will pay for the rest of your life.

Well, maybe two years with Leroy as your roommate will seem like the rest of your life.

You want to be the husband or the wife?
OH NO!!

KEMP

Anonymous said...

Men got the shaft moreso than white people. The hysteria surrounding this was more about rape and getting the majority of the population to enact more draconian measures to demonize male behavior.

Notice how they cling to the "well getting a stripper is sleazy" but don't even bring up the fact that CGM was a prostitute, as if women can do no wrong and men have to be saints.

Mark my words, the fembots were more entrenched in their dogma than the neo-nazis. The fembots are an army and the neo-nazis but a brigade.

Anonymous said...

Oh my Lord, if Kemp is right and this is delayed until May, it will be another travesty of justice. It is so beyond obvious these men are innocent, that to continue to delay the inevitable casues additional pain and suffering. What CYA does the AG need to do (other than he is a democrat) ??

oh yes, btw, I agree, she does claim that hoe money (all to herself), so, how about a little IRS investigation...

Anonymous said...

Hell hath no fury greater than a mother whose children have been threatened !!! You go Mrs. Evans !!

Anonymous said...

Hopefully we don't consider rape "male behavior?"

bill anderson said...

The one thing we forget is that the defense has a whole heck of a lot more exculpatory evidence. Joe Cheshire and company do not charge $80K a month for nothing.

While I think Kemp pretty much has been on the money, keep in mind that he is speaking on what we know NOW, not what we are likely to know in the next few weeks. In a case that is this bogus, there is no way that people like Cheshire, Bannon, Osborn and their staffs are going to act like Nifong and not have their act together.

I'm glad that Freeman was able to explain to Liefong that there was an appendage sticking into his rear end. Kemp, I sure do hope it is the crowbar motel, for he was seeking to force three young men into prison for 60 years when he KNEW there was no crime. Throw the book at him!

Michael said...

I saw Joe Cheshire's interview earlier and he looks like a straight shooter who knows the score. Kind of looked like a professor giving a documentary except there weren't enough books in the background. I'm sure that even though Nifong is out; that they're still on their game and that the families understand this.

I also believe that the spotlight needs to remain on this case until the charges are dismissed with predjudice.

Anonymous said...

"Handing over impeachment evidence has been law since a 1972 U.S. Supreme Court decision. But Coman went on to say it wasn't just his opinion, it was the policy of the Attorney General's Office."

N.C. prosecutors stifled evidence

I guess I was hoping for better.

Anonymous said...

Oh. My. God.

After reading the background on the new prosecutors, I just have to ask: Is there one f*cking honest person in North Carolina?????

This incestual relationship between prosecutors, defense attorneys, governors, what have you....I'm in a nightmare.

Oh. My. God.

Anonymous said...

Isn't it something? Nifong is replaced by Gell's prosecutor.

Anonymous said...

One can only hope and pray the Fed's intervene.

Anonymous said...

Nifong or Coman whats the difference ? Seems that witholding exculpatory evidence and trying to railroad innocent defendents really is a standard prosecutorial practice in NC. Wonder how many innocent people are on death row in NC ? For the Duke defendents I hope it's not "out of the pot into the fire". I trust that bloggers like KC and Liestoppers will keep the pressure up.

Anonymous said...

Gell's prosecutor. What a good PR move by NC.

I'm sure no one will comment on that choice.

So many eyes will be on this case, that unless there is a video of the crime this case is over.

Anonymous said...

"Why can't we work out our differences? Why can't we work things out? Little people, why can't we all just get along?" - President Dale (Mars Attack)

Anonymous said...

Bill Anderson, what do you make of Jim Coman and Mary Winstead prosecuting the case? Any chance of 'legal' improprieties?

Cedarford said...

True, racism is universal. No society of group is immune. Individuals need to rise above it.

7:10 PM


The problem with that thinking is the paucity of multiethnic or multireligious nations that have worked over a long term.

Andalusia, Rome, Yugoslavia, Weimar Germany, the Soviet Union, French Algeria, S Africa were all once flourishing multiethnic societies.

They all fell. Either the unassimilatable minority was killed off or expelled, or the nation fragmented into subunits better able to accomodate dissimilar cultures.

While ethnically pure China (95% Han Chinese), Iceland, Japan perservere.

Present significant ethnically and religiously diverse nations are Israel, Brazil, Canada, India, USA, Iraq and the nations of Eurabia.

All have significant strife. Of internal violence related to religious or ethnic differences, or ethnic/sectarian forces seeking to rip the nation apart.

India, Israel, USA, and Iraq have had major bloody wars related to "diversity" in recent centuries. Europe's next war looms.

Racism is not a pathological condition but a core trait of human nature and societies - be wary of the other tribe - for they may not have just attributes of benefit but the seeds of your tribe's destruction.

In the post-Victorian, post WWI era, a large part of humanity became convinced that modernity and technology would overcome all past human sentiments about very different people and societies living alongside.

Arabs would welcome Jews in as bringing modern gifts and Zionists would live happily in an ocean of Muslims. All the nations would get together and create harmony and progress at the UN, EU, world communist movement, etc., etc. Nations could have Open Borders and undergo radical, but peaceful demographic changes.
All societal metrics could be made equal for all races, ethnicities, religions and any failure was "racist forces at work".

Saying individuals need to "rise above" notions like racism is not respectful of the historical reality.

Like saying somehow - if Japan works well for the Japanese, it will work even better if they bring in 30-40 million Muslims from overpopulated lands because then Japan will have the "diversity" - the failed education systems, high crime, social suspicions, and huge cadres of government-paid equality enforcers and dole providers nonwithstanding.
And Japan will be somehow richer, smarter, better able to compete for having 30-40 million Muslims....

And it looks like justified racial, religious, and ethnic fears of "racists and bigots" will continue to be verified in the 21st Century.

Tolerance is a two-way street, and those in the majority who urge majority populations to "rise above it as individuals" are pretty clueless if they don't insist on reciprocity.

The US, India, EU, Canada are in growing danger of breaking apart in the 21st century. Like Iraq. Like the Soviets. Like Yugoslavia. There is no "exceptionalism" in history. Diverse societies are inherently unstable. China and Japan will always be - unless they get crazy and sabotage themselves with demographic diversity.

Anonymous said...

Way to take the wind out of the sails. There is not a CHANCE in my mind that any attorney, much less one with the credentials of Mr. Conan, did not understand what was meant by "impeachment evidence." That was one sobering, gripping article...in fact, it could make you sick. Straight from elation to foreboding. The remaining positive...this will play out on an international stage with AG Gonzales watching, KC Johnson blogging, and the nation absorbing an important lesson about ethics.

Bill Anderson, You were completely on target in your Spaghetti article that mentioned the shenanigans of Mr. Rudy Guiliani and Governor Eliot Spitzer. I have watched both of them in action for years and marveled at how what I consider outrageous misconduct seems to propel them (or at least not prevent them from going) to higher office. I also concur on Martha Stewart.

RP, On the issue of Asian Studies...of course, you are correct. Our curriculums on the subjects included therein are inadequate at every level...and of critical importance.

Observer

Jerri Lynn Ward, J.D. said...

"The tape could have been used to "impeach" the witness, or undercut her credibility, Coman acknowledged. But he said case law didn't require impeachment evidence to be turned over to the defense."

This statement by Coman should be used by the defense in any and all motions to compel production of exculpatory evidence. What an appalling move on the part of the AG. Appoint a man who says things like this to a case where a major bone of contention has been the production of exculpatory evidence.

The hubris of the political elite has never been so evident as in this case.

The AG should be bombarded with objections to this appointment by NC citizens. I don't care what the one lawyer said about Coman's conduct in the retrial of Gell. For all we know, that was "survival motivated suck-up".

Anonymous said...

Sorry to say it, but I felt no elation when Nifong recused himself because I wasn't at all sure that his replacement is going to be any better than he was.

Anonymous said...

"The problem with that thinking is the paucity of multiethnic or multireligious nations that have worked over a long term."

I think if posting in 1775 you may have said them same about democracy. While I do acknowledge the current problem in my titled "neo-racist" post earlier, I do think as humanity advances in thinking, what was impossible in the past may be possible in the future.

Anonymous said...

North-Carolina-in-Wonderland

ec said...

Cedarford's comment of 8:53 PM is absolutely correct and deserves to be committed to memory. While wealth is able to cover a lot of the ugliness that is inherent in multicultural societies, it is only a temporizing measure. Eventually, all of these societies fail as the respective groups want to be with others of like kind. This is human nature. What is not human nature is the PCism that is forced upon these societies and the draconian legislation that is put in place to prevent dissension.

Our current state reminds me of the old Soviet days when all the citizenry knew the Soviet system was corrupt and worthless, yet in public it did not stop anyone from singing its praises.

Anonymous said...

"bill anderson said...
Trust me, the families do plan to sue Crystal in civil court. That I do know."

Thank you, Bill, for passing that along. That is wonderful news. Let Crystal point the finger at Mikey to save herself, if it comes to that.

IMO, I think civil suits are the only way to clean up Durham and protect the future of other Duke students.

Anonymous said...

Question for a good NC legal mind: Would these potential legal suits necessarily be tried in Durham? If so, why would anyone think they could get a fair jury out of the pool?

Anonymous said...

Cedarford,

Can we dispense with the bullshit, and go on and tell an ugly truth?

No matter where you find them, black people are problems. They tend toward criminality, dysfunctional educational problems, welfare dependency and antiwhite racism.

Let me ask you a question, Cedarford:

Without a doubt, what is the worst thing that ever happened to the US?

Answer: Sub-Saharan people coming here and causing all kinds of problems. There is not a #2 answer to this question that comes close.

Are we agreed?

Anonymous said...

JLS says....

Well I am not Bill Anderson but my take on appointing John Dean and Rosemary Woods as the two special prosecutor is that it means one of two things:

1. The fix is in and they will drag this on to try to make their buddy Nifong look not so bad.

2. Or the AG knows what a mess this is and these two could clearly can use a bit of fairness attached to their body of work and so they were appointed to gain the positive aura of fairness from dropping the charges in this mess.

I guess it also could be a combination of the two. They can drop this maybe relatively quickly and get the positive aura attached to them while they try to cover up the various misdeeds of Nifong, Wilson, Himan and Gottlieb?

Anonymous said...

9:35

I vote for #2

The whole legal world will be looking at this case. And Meehan will be on 60 Minutes this Sunday. Not hiding this case under the rug.

NC needs to regain respect. They will hang Nifong.

Anonymous said...

Let me rephrase; perhaps I was too hasty in my comment. Surely, the AG office of the State of North Carolina understood that impeachment evidence was vitally important to defendants and had to be turned over to defendants based on a longstanding Supreme Court decision. Surely. But here in New York we have a new AG who is very inexperienced, Andrew Cuomo, and there is certainly a chance a green AG elected because of name
recognition, and not because of ability and experience, could make very foolish decisions about policy...like withholding evidence that would impeach the credibility of a government witness.

I should add that despite his political grandstanding as a US Attorney, Rudy Guiliani made an excellent mayor in general as far as I could tell, and an heroic mayor during the trials of 9/11.

Observer

Anonymous said...

9:34 PM
i vote to have this post be deleted by moderator.

Anonymous said...

I'm thinking ahead to a civil trial against Nifong and CGM, and I have a stupid question: Can deals be made in civil trials, like they can in criminal trial? For instance, can the LAX lawyers tell CGM that they will spare her if she testifies against Nifong?

Anonymous said...

9:52

Am I wrong?

Pray tell?

Otherwise, shut up!

Anonymous said...

Reality check

CGM has nothing.

She will not even show up for a lawsuit hearing. The lax players get a default judgement.

She loses and what can they take?

The only point of suing are:

1 - Moral victory

2 - Stop her from selling her story.

Jerri Lynn Ward, J.D. said...

Anon 9:34 and 9:55

Are you a regular commenter at LittleGeneva.com by chance?

Just asking.

Anonymous said...

9:34 is just a troll, I guest there is no crime in China or Russia.

Anonymous said...

This blog string is on two tracks: one more technical and the other more theoretical. I'll address the theoretical one concerning multiculturalism. First of all, we're stuck with each other: black, white....etc. Talk of hating this group or that group might satisfy one's inner anger for a short time, but doesn't solve the problem. The one and only way we'll coexist in any kind of harmony is if we have a common identity. In our case that's being an American. If we lose this we're screwed and not even a Stalinist or Tito-like regime can keep us together.

Anonymous said...

9:34 Said:

"Let me ask you a question, Cedarford:

Without a doubt, what is the worst thing that ever happened to the US?

Answer: Sub-Saharan people coming here and causing all kinds of problems. There is not a #2 answer to this question that comes close."

Its a shame, there should have had much tougher immigration laws back then, when we had that flood of Sub-Sahara immigration. Wait, there wasn't a flood of sub-Sahara immigration, was there. No the sub-Sahara populations were forcibly brought here, against their will, primarily arranged by Arab slave traders, to toil without reward or dignity as chattel in the fields of the mostly English settlers.

There are real and disturbing questions to address about race, but idiocy and the pure evil and bad faith of posters like 9:34 is as frightening and disturbing as the idiocy of the Group of 88 and potbangers. You let your hate and ideology control all rationality and any sense of history, so that you avoid facts and issue ridiculous proclamations like those above.

Anonymous said...

Jerri,

Answer my question.

I'm a regular contributor and not prone to lying.

CGM is a run-of-the-mill African predator.

Anonymous said...

9:34pm--Your words could not be more correct.
I curse each and every plantation owner in the South for creating that peculiar institution which brought sub-Saharan Africans here.
Although none will admit that their own fellow Africans captured them and helped sell them to Europeans. All we ever hear is that white people were the only players.
Tell me. Have you ever met a AA who wants to go back to Africa? The original reason that they are here is a negative to be sure, although slavery is long past. But if not for slavery, the AA here today would be dodging machetes on the African continent and such from their fellow barbarians.
I agree that bringing sub-Saharan Africans to America was the single worst negative for this country. Ever.

Anonymous said...

Have to agree with 9:34

Thomas Jefferson, in "Notes on the State of Virginia," argued that the presence of Africans in the US was deadly. He has been proven 100% correct.

ec said...

Anon 10:09 PM

The one and only way we'll coexist in any kind of harmony is if we have a common identity. In our case that's being an American. If we lose this we're screwed and not even a Stalinist or Tito-like regime can keep us together.

Haven't we all been American from the beginning, exceptions noted?

Sorry to sidetrack this comment thread, though with this massive immigration that is hitting the shores of the US, as well as other countries, assimilation will not happen and the end result will not be pretty for anyone. Just my opinion.

Anonymous said...

AG Cooper wearing a wig or using same hair spray as Kerry & Edwards?

Anonymous said...

I disagree. Allowing Arabs and Muslims into our country is the worse. A A are not trying to blew us up or change our society. There is no trouble getting a black or white cab driver at the airport,

Anonymous said...

10:12

Agreed, demographics is destiny, the real moral of the Duke rape hoax.

Whites and Asians don't need them, but they surely need us, regardless of how much they hate us.

I'm glad we're having this discussion. It's liberating, and totally politically incorrect.

Jerri Lynn Ward, J.D. said...

10:11 you said:

"Without a doubt, what is the worst thing that ever happened to the US?
Answer: Sub-Saharan people coming here and causing all kinds of problems."

"Jerri. Answer my question."

My answer is an unequivocal NO.

The worst thing to happen to the US, in my opinion, is the importation of European Post-Reformation philosophy into American thought. I am not a total fan of the Enlightenment and I wholly reject the Hegelian dialetic and Social Darwinism.

The above are the real problems for the U.S.--not Black people.

Anonymous said...

Best to ignore trolls, don't respond back because it only encourages them.

Anonymous said...

guarantee u Liefong's already cut a deal with AG and State Bar! Kemp u should be on to this.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, Jerri, I'm really worried about getting mugged by Hegel.

Isn't it hysterical that honest people like myself are called "trolls?"

Africans are an infestation. All the social problems in the US prove this out. Crime, taxes, welfare, dumbed down standards.

Anonymous said...

Great post 10:23pm. I agree that it is very liberating. I don't hate anybody in this world and I have traveled to almost every country on the globe. Many people in other countries feel the same way toward AA as we do. No getting around their expectation of a free ride.
Just tired of all the bullshit. AA in this country do not want to be "Americans". They like being marginalized and they like having grievances. It's their ticket without really ever contributing in any fundamental way to our society.
Many people are fed up with the trouble caused by all this.
The one positive from this lacrosse case is that the whole country has witnessed just how monolithic their "culture" is and how devious and vengeful they are.
Fock'em!

Jerri Lynn Ward, J.D. said...

Anon 10:24:

"Best to ignore trolls, don't respond back because it only encourages them."

You are right!

Anonymous said...

Again, I respectfully ask this question:

Besides the consequences of Africans in the US, what problem in the history of the US comes close?

And don't try to sell me that Hegel BS.

CF said...

I take back my earlier comments about how it would be best to give the State of N C a chance to clean its own house. Brother!

Anonymous said...

10:03 cgm has money. Jesse Jackson promised to give pay her tuition (taxable income) and she may sell rights. I can see the movie or book already: "Confessions of a black escort"

Besides, prostitutes get paid pretty well. Didn't she had DNA from 5 men?

Anonymous said...

10:35 - I actually don't think you are intellectually honest at all.

Decrying an entire race of people bnecause of what you perceive as their shared commonalities based on your own subjective prejudice is as absurd as saying caucasian, upper class lacrosse players are more likely than not to rape an "exotic dancer" because of their shared alleged traits as white elitist oppressors of Black females. It is simply the converse of an insidious coin, and springs from the same smelly, racist source.

Honest? About as intellectually honest as the Group of 88's statement was. The traits of the individual are what counts, not their status, religion, or race. That's what this whole affair is about, or did you miss it?

-Esquire-
-Maryland-

Anonymous said...

Gell's prosecutor. What a good PR move by NC.

Wait until you see the state bar ethics committee. It has three members, 2 lawyers and one non-lawyer (apppointed by Gov Easley).


btw, has anybody checked EBay for "Code of Ethics - NC state bar" ?

Anonymous said...

Well I wouldn't call this the most politically correct thread ever, but goes with that whole free speech although I suspect someone soon will categorize this as some type of "unacceptable" speech.

Jerri, could you provide some examples of manifestations of your theories on what ails American society?

Anonymous said...

Esquire from Maryland is so sexy!

Anonymous said...

This has been an intelligent blog. Must it now collapse in a spasm of ignorant racism?

Anonymous said...

re the worst problem in the US

I'm a liberal anthropology professor at an Ivy League school.

As much as I'd like to disagree, considering the nature of current US problems, there is no question that African Americans are a deleterious presence, on average.

I hate to write this, but one has to tell the truth.

Anonymous said...

Maryland Esquire states:

The traits of the individual are what counts, not their status, religion, or race.

Absolutely true and I wholeheartedly agree. Yet, care to address the "Black Vote" not only in regards to the Democratic party but also in regards to Nifong and his slim margin of victory thanks to nearly the entire Black vote in Durham? How do we reconcile individuality with group think like that? Thanks.

Anonymous said...

10:51 - Funny you raise that. My theory is that the people who post these sorts of topics are in actuality plants. They make outrageous comments so that they can later be cut and pasted to make it look like all the posters on this blog are a fermenting group of white supremacists to meet their expectations. In truth, I have never heard a supporter of the Duke Three make any sort of these statements. KC will remove them in due course.

Just thought you should know. It's a Machiavellian world out there.

-Esquire-
-Maryland-

Anonymous said...

And if you, 10:54, are "a liberal anthropology professor at an Ivy League school", I am the King of the Hottentots.

Anonymous said...

And if you, 10:54, are "a liberal anthropology professor at an Ivy League school", I am the King of the Hottentots.

Jerri Lynn Ward, J.D. said...

"Jerri, could you provide some examples of manifestations of your theories on what ails American society?"

Abortion
Eugenics
Atheism
Collectivism
Public Schooling
Futile Care Theory
Legal Positivism
The Duke Hoax

Anonymous said...

Jerri, my pathetic dear

Abortion? You can do better than that, can't you?

Jerri, remember looking at the Katrina video? Yep, they are your brothers and sisters.

Or are they?

Anonymous said...

The worst things to happen to the United States:
-Madeline Murray O'Hare and the movement to take all prayer out of public schools, ca. 1962
-Lyndon Johnson's Great Society
-Vietnam
-hippie drug culture (amazing how the greatest generation produced such awful, ingrate kids)
-Watergate...not so much what Nixon did, but what it did to American media, journalism schools,etc.
-Jimmy Carter...made Americans feel like shit...remember the "misery index"?
-The ACLU...consistently siding with EVIL
-Bill Clinton...told the kids oral sex wasn't really sex...placed his own ambitions ahead of our nation's! Allowed Islamofascism to get a strong foothold...I could go on forever...
-Democrats as they have behaved since Bush defeated Gore in 2000
(and yes, W really did win in FL)

Race is not the real problem in the U.S. It's Liberals and their efforts to completely secularize America.
-

Anonymous said...

10:54 - The same thing was said about the Irish in 1800's America. They voted Democrat, and it was considered that they would always vote en masse for that party. As time went on, and the Irish became more and more assimilated into American society, and gained economically, this has changed. Today, the typical ethnically Irish American tends to vote conservatively.

Thus, as Blacks gain more in terms of economic success, and become more involved in America as a whole, I think this will change, and the Democratic Party's hold on Blacks in terms of votes will likewise diminish just as it did with the Irish. The Black vote will reflect the society in which they have become fully assimilated, it will widen. That trend is starting today by what I see. Michael Steele, Connie Rice and Colin Powell come immediately to mind as signs that things are changing. It just takes time.

And in the end, I think that is great for Blacks in this country.

-Esquire-
-Maryland-

Anonymous said...

Did anyone just see good ol' Georgia Gosslee on 'The Lineup'

That lady just refuses to see the evidence...still insisting that we have only seen the defense side of things and that 'something horrible definately happened in that house that night.'
Look I understand defending a rape/sexual assualt victim. NO ONE WOULD WANT THAT UPON ANYONE!! But guess what Georgia...she is NOT a victim of ANY kind. She made the Duke 3 victims when she downright lied. Yes Georgia...she lied. It is obvious you do not want to believe it, but it is true... AND ..she has made a fool of you too by your continuing to believe her. Why don't you actually read the reports that are out there...and then get back to those of us that know...NOTHING HAPPENED....AT ALL to that woman.
The players did NOT lay even one tiny pinky finger on her...!
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Duke Lax Mom AND SO VERY PROUD OF IT!!!

Anonymous said...

Thus, as Blacks gain more in terms of economic success, and become more involved in America as a whole, I think this will change, and the Democratic Party's hold on Blacks in terms of votes will likewise diminish just as it did with the Irish.

Unfortunately, Jesse Jackson and others like him work very hard to poison the minds of their followers to prevent them from gaining such socioeconomic success.

Anonymous said...

11:53 - Some people will never get it. Just shake your head and turn the channel. Keep your chin up, the end approaches and right quick.

-Esquire-
-Maryland-

Anonymous said...

I find this thread to be a pisser.

Having just logged on, I find it funny that no one has been able to gainsay the "black problem" argument--LOL

I don't give a shit 1 way or the other, but this racist has a powerful argument.

Duke Mom

Jerri Lynn Ward, J.D. said...

"Jerri, remember looking at the Katrina video? Yep, they are your brothers and sisters."

Have you forgotten that some of the less than stellar examples of humanity during Katrina included white people? I distinctly remember some white people carrying away the spoils of looting.

It is very silly of you to impute the "fallen nature" of man to only those who are not white. But then, racists are silly people in my book

Anonymous said...

Thanks for bucking me up Esquire!
I get plenty frustrated when only 8-9% of AA's vote Republican, and the Democrats purposely keep them down generation after generation. There are many brilliant Black Conservatives (I love Walter Williams) and I wish that they could somehow get the AA's attention. If just 20% of AA's voted republican, the democrat party would go the way of the dinosaurs.

Anonymous said...

11:11 - Ah, which makes the emphasis on the INDIVIDUAL so very important. This case and the viewpoint you bemoan, go hand in hand. The emphasis is on the group, and the individual's unique characteristics are ignored in favor of alleged traits of the group as a whole. The group then defines the individual, the individual is ignored.

I find this argument self-defeating from all sides. The person is what counts.

-Esquire-
-Maryland-

Anonymous said...

11:19 PM

Esquire - brilliant!

Anonymous said...

Maryland Esquire,

Thanks for your response though I fear you are crossing your fingers and hoping. Your comparison with the Irish, though not overtly fallacious, is weak. You say 1800s, about the time Blacks gained emancipation. Now, we have two groups who have diverged in their progress over the last 150 years. And you would like to have more time?

Anonymous said...

11:16 - In which case, "Duke Mom," you lend legitmacy to the argument that your own child's traits are shared with other white lacrosse players.

This was the very thing that caught my attention in this case in March when Nifong began his little diatribe. Group punishment is a terrible thing based on prejudices of how a group "acts." It cuts both ways.

-Esquire-
-Maryland-

Anonymous said...

If KC deletes these posts tonight he is engaging in the act of denying free speech. There has not been one thing written that deserves to be hidden.
Some of you guys are so full of the spell cast on you by the Marxists among us that you are afraid to voice an opinion.
And as a result of the horror experienced by the Duke 3, you're all as crazy as hell if you think they'll want to be sucking up to many AA's anytime soon. Why do so many of you have to hide from a simple truth?
AA's are a detriment to progress for all practical purposes.

Anonymous said...

"If KC deletes these posts tonight he is engaging in the act of denying free speech"

Dude - get a blog.

Anonymous said...

11:21 - The comparison is not that far off. Consider that public housing as a practice, in fact, did far more than Jim Crow could have dreamed to sectionalize Blacks as a group, and to keep them pinned in one place, away from the rest of society. I would argue that only within the past ten years, with the demize of high density public housing, have Blacks started to truly assimilate into America as a whole with a shift in population to suburban areas.

-Esquire-
-Maryland-

Jerri Lynn Ward, J.D. said...

"If KC deletes these posts tonight he is engaging in the act of denying free speech."

How absurd you are. This is K.C.'s domain and we are all guests. Free speech has nothing to do with his decisions about whom he will allow to comment.

You are a barbarian who has thrown a stink bomb in the midst of civilized folk. Therefore, you should leave.

Anonymous said...

Jerry: Amen brother counselor.

-Esquire-
-Maryland-

Jerri Lynn Ward, J.D. said...

"Jerry: Amen brother counselor."

Esquire, I am SISTER counselor.

Anonymous said...

Esquire,

Even if I concede your time frame in your comment on 11:28 PM, which I do not necessarily do, how do you reconcile the fact that we do not see massive Black accomplishments in other nations around the globe? Let's assume we in the US are ultra-racists and keep the Black man down purposefully. How about Canada where they ran to for freedom? How about Europe? How about the Caribbean? How about the nations of Africa?

You see, there are always excuses. Even with that, I still agree with you that judging the individual is key to a civilized society even though the group data is quite damning for certain groups.

Thanks for the dialogue.

See people? The world did not end when two people with opposing views had an honest discussion about race.

Anonymous said...

Jerri Lynn Ward, J.D. said...

"Jerry: Amen brother counselor."

Esquire, I am SISTER counselor.

11:37 PM


Sistah Soulja? LOL

:)

Jerri Lynn Ward, J.D. said...

""Jerry: Amen brother counselor."

Esquire, I am SISTER counselor."

Let me add that like some of the other female posters, I, likewise find you to be "hot".

Anonymous said...

Methinks that Esquire needs to take a drive through Durham.
Nuff said about this topic.

Anonymous said...

11:05 No question. Jeb and his boys stole the election fair and square.

Anonymous said...

I am very discouraged about our new "Special Prosecutors." I just read the LS Discussion thread on these lawyers, and the story just gets worse and worse. SP Mary was on the case with Mr. Nifong that has been repeatedly referred to as the other case where Mr. Nifong went ahead with a rape trial on very flimsy evidence so the accuser could have her day in court, only to have a Not Guilty verdict returned shortly after the case went to the jury. Although others have warned that prosecutorial abuse is widespread, I really could not imagine we would find prosecutors, especially in the AG's office, who actually might not be an improvement on Mr. Nifong. And we're still caught up in this unending morass of electoral politics, which will necessitate that prosecutors handle this case from hell as gingerly as possible so as not to antagonize the electorate. I appreciated my few hours of hope that reason would prevail, but I am not sure it was worth my current disappointment in the entire State of North Carolina.

Observer

Anonymous said...

Jerri Lynn Ward 11:34pm---Your point is well taken, but I must advise you that if you are spending your time arguing with me on the computer on a Saturday night, and you're single, then flirting with our man Esquire isn't going help you very much.

Hehehe

Jerri Lynn Ward, J.D. said...

11:55 PM

I have to admit, your post made me LOL!

Anonymous said...

11:19 (Esquire) -- The emphasis is on the group, and the individual's unique characteristics are ignored in favor of alleged traits of the group as a whole.

If people do not want to be judged as individuals rather than as a group, then they need to behave as individuals rather than as a group. To be sure there are some blacks (Thomas Sowell, Clarance Thomas, et al.) who refuse to act in concert with blacks as a group and are thus recognized as individuals.

But when people put their group identity ahead of their own personal identity, why should others judging them not do likewise?

Anonymous said...

A corrupt prosecutor (who withheld evidence) replaced by a corrupt prosecutor (who has a history of withhelding evidence).

Way to go NC! Just what this case needed.

Is the new guy a career democrat as well? (rhetoric question, we all know the answer, don't we..)

I always thought New Orleans and New Jersey are the most corrupt places in the country, but apprently, Durham gives them run of their money.

Anonymous said...

11:58pm---Amen, brothah!

Anonymous said...

Sad to say, but there is the possibility that Nifong has something on others that may strengthen his hand -- the Gov. was the former AG and did appoint him, after all.

This whole thing doesn't pass the smell test.

Anonymous said...

11:45 - Durham? Are you serious? This is what you base these sorts of statements upon?

Have you driven through Baltimore or SE Washington, DC at night (hint, drive fast)? They make Durham look like Mayberry. Even with my experiences in both of these places, I find much of the commentary on trying to hold people to a certain subjective standard based on their race to be contemptuous.

-Esquire-
-Maryland-

Anonymous said...

11:58 - One does not do so because one understands that if one places group above individual, one is making the same fundamental mistake as the person one criticizes.

Two wrongs do not make a right. Doing the same thing one decries, however, does make one a hypocrite.

-Esquire-
-Maryland-

Anonymous said...

Oh, I can think of the one thing that's really torpedoed America.

The McCarthy hearings in the 1950's. All of a sudden every public servant had to be the very exemplar of a red-blooded American in all thoughts, words, and actions since the beginning of time. And none of them could ever be.

That's a run on the bank of public trust in government that's locked American politics into a downward spiral from which it has yet to recover.

Damn those African Communists! ...all none of them.

Anonymous said...

The white liberal is a much greater threat to America than any other minority group

Anonymous said...

One more thought. If I had the choice of sending 30 Million African-Americans back to Africa or sending 30 million white liberals there. I'd send the white liberals.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone really believe Thomas Jefferson could have predicted the consequences of the Precious controversy?

Absolutely--LOL

Anonymous said...

12:34 - The true Liberal is a dying breed. KC is an example of a true Liberal (I am a classic Hobbesian Conservative, BTW). What we have in America now is in actuality the Left, with its emphasis on groups that require "special" protection. Thus, true equality is replaced with the Orwellian mantra that all people are equal, but some are more equal than others.

The result can be seen in this case. Rather than the State being forced to prove the guilt of the Defendants, the burden was immediately shifted to a demand that the Defendants prove their innocense. This was based entirely on the perceived "right" of the accuser to her day in Court (remember hearing that over and over?). No such right exists. That she needed protection from elite, Caucasian athletes because of past discriminations by Caucasians of Blacks (remember the NAACP?) All of these positions are at direct odds with the fundamental right, found within the Constitution, to the duty of the State to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime had been committed by the individual charged. This case is an outrage in that respect. For a time, it looked like some kind of Stalinistic show trial.

In the end, the true loser is the individual's rights, and it is replaced by a group consciesness and group rights that is fundamentally opposed to that concept. All of this arises from the Left, not from Lockesian Liberalism.

-Esquire-
-Maryland-

Anonymous said...

Esquire, we're not talking about "groups," we're talking about race--big difference.

Blacks are a global pain in the ass--lol

Am I wrong about this?

Have you been raped or mugged by a liberal?

Just curious.

Anonymous said...

Esq.,
I was not talking about the classical (true) Liberal. I was talking about the leftist (illiberal) liberal. The kind that dominate acadamia today.

Anonymous said...

12:52,

I've never been mugged or raped by any one. But because I'm white I have a much greater chance of being victimized by a white person.
Black people are the ones who overwelmingly suffer from black crime

Anonymous said...

only statistically

in the aggregate, whites and Asians are victimized mostly by blacks and Hispanics

check the FBI crime statistics data

lm said...

Cedarford's post about diversity and Esquire's 11:19 post are both excellent. Diversity has historically been an agent of instability. Perhaps America may escape the fate of other societies in which diversity became a liability if focus on the individual takes the place of assumptions about a group.
It would help if we stop giving any group exceptional or protected status based on their race (or creed or gender for that matter). This is America, and while its foundation may have been the brainchild of educated whites males, the only person to blame for your problems is the person looking back at you in the mirror. Anyone who doesn't believe that should definitely visit the land of their origins for a fresh perspective.

Anonymous said...

Black on white crime was't a big problem before liberals/leftist hijacked the Supreme Court in the 1950s

Newyorkstateofmind said...

Debrah 3:37

Check out my response to your response, back on the "Coleman Reaction" thread, which I was finally able to leave an hour or so ago.

Newyorkstateofmind said...

Anon 1:20 and 1:23

In agreement. And as welfare like AFDC (created originally in the mid-30's for truly desperate women with children and no supporting father, usually due to widowhood, not victimhood) greatly expanded in part because of the same enabling attitude, and literally enabling legislation from the 1950's onward, urban black communities which in former decades had actually been relatively clean places, where male workforce participation rates were often slightly higher than surrounding white communities, and where overall crime rates were likewise on par with neighboring whites...well...all that changed with the Welfare State, creating the Ghetto State, and then the Affirmative Action State. With each new development, the black-on-white crime rate just got higher and higher.

Anonymous said...

John Burness is a sick joke, trying to put Brodhead out in front on this one.

Where was President Brodhead from March until December?

We all know the answer: hiding in Allen Building.

Anonymous said...

So, there was a little race chat last night.

Always a good thing.

I got drunk last night, so I won't be posting until later on the most up-to-date thread. The topic will be "The Black Agenda Meets the Duke Rape Hoax."

RP

Anonymous said...

What Nifong did was"cut and run". He caused a travesty, fed it for 10 months and now is running away. Good riddence, but the incredible damage is already done.

Don't expect DOJ and Gonzales to do anything. I don't even think this man exists. He has pretty much ignored Congressman Jones request, his office is to investigate corruption and uphold the Contsitutional rights of every citizen. Instead he ignores not only this case but also is doing nothing about the 2 border patrol officers who are arrested for stopping drug traffickers coming into the US. HMMMM. I wonder what side the DOJ and Gonzales are on, the good guys or the bad. It appears he sides with the corrupt, illegal and bad guys.

The NC Attorney General is an ass to wait for so long. The longer this goes the higher the civil payment the state of NC will have to pay out. Nifong was representing state. I'm not too sure about the 2 new prosecuting attorneys. They look like they have a history with not too much integrity behind it. Bad choice. And by the way Paula Zahn is an idiot. How can a talking head go on national t.v., interview people and have no clue about the case? Does she realize people's live are on the line or is the bottom line just ratings. Sad commentary on Paula. How does she sleep at night?

Anonymous said...

Does anyone have some crazy glue to squirt in Victoria Petersons foul mouth.

Anonymous said...

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when the new prosecutors grill Crystal. What kind of story will she invent now. The state has pressure from the Federal government to clean this mess up. They are not going to go easy on Crystal like her captor Nifong did. No more pain killers for you Crystal. I hope you are sent to prison for the rest of your rotten life. To the DPD who assisted Nifong with this farce, they will all be sracmbling around like a bunch of rats trying to figure out which story they are going to use. I certainly hope the Attorney General's office was smart enough to lock down the DA's office to ensure no documents, emails, phone logs, and any more exculpatory evidence is destroyed before they can get their hands on it.
Its payback time.

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