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Comments and analysis about the Duke/Nifong case (2006-2014).
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Blog Archive
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2007
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January
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- Meeting Reaction
- NY Post Article
- Facile Assumptions
- Hearing Postponed
- Duke Basketball Report Auction for ATAF
- Praising Stephen Miller
- The Times: DNA Exonerates (Except When It Doesn't)
- Barber, Wells, and the Sins of Denial
- Sunday Roundup
- Citizens' Committee Co-Chair to Nifong: Apologize
- Friends of Duke Petition
- Error Below
- More State NAACP Hypocrisy
- Power of the (College) Press
- Gottlieb Watch
- Duke Law School Panel
- Nifong's Legacy of Misconduct
- The Bar Lays Down the Law
- Murphy's Latest
- Association for Truth and Fairness
- The Insights of Georgia Goslee
- Coleman, Neff Panel
- Mushnick on the Case
- An Agenda for the General Assembly
- Important Insights from the Herald-Sun
- Sunday Roundup
- Nifong's Last Campaign Finance Report
- Ten--and More--Questions for the (Rump) Group of 88
- The State NAACP's Hypocrisy
- The Chronicle on the CCI
- Ashley: We Won't Apologize
- The Group of 88's Myths and Realities
- Fact-Checking the (Rump) Group of 88
- King Demands Inquiry
- La Shawn on the (Rump) Group of 88
- The (Rump) Group of 88 Strikes Again
- Let's Play Telephone
- The Special Prosecutor Route
- DBR on 60 Minutes
- Race, Racism, and the Case
- 60 Minutes Quick Hits
- The N&O's Verdict on Davidson
- Paula Zahn Cracks the Case
- Reactions
- Dissension among the Troika
- Bipartisan Calls for Federal Inquiry
- The Path from Here
- Nifong Is Off the Case
- A Lawyer for Nifong
- Coleman Reaction
- The Theater of the Absurd
- Meehan on 60 Minutes
- Motion
- Anatomy of a Frame
- Bombshell
- Dorothy Rabinowitz
- Early Dates
- Jackie Brown Speaks Out
- Holloway Leaves CCI
- Conflicting Pressures
- Ec in N&O
- Huff Post Huffs
- Decline of the Nifong Enablers
- Understanding SANE: Tara Levicy
- Brodhead's Apologia
- John Bourlon: Legal "Analyst"
- Curtis-gate
- More Only in Durham
- Sunday Roundup
- More Cathy Davidson: In Her Own Words
- The Rust Belt Weighs In
- Dowd and Duke
- Cathy Davidson: In Her Own Words
- The Importance of Economics
- Apologia for a Disaster
- Price's "Puzzling" Position
- The Dowd Suit
- Duke's Economics Department Takes Its Stand
- The Only "Evidence" Left
- Duke Does the Right Thing
- Violating "Common Sense"
- The Absence of Self-Reflection
- Delusional
- Compare and Contrast
- Charlotte Observer: Recuse
- Mike Nifong, "Public" Servant
- Nifong and the Black Community
- Estrich Pulls No Punches
- WRAL: Carrying Nifong's Water?
- Baker: In His Own Words
- FODU: Message to Group of 88
- New Years' Roundup
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January
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- "From the Scottsboro Boys to Clarence Gideon, some of the most memorable legal narratives have been tales of the wrongly accused. Now “Until Proven Innocent,” a new book about the false allegations of rape against three Duke lacrosse players, can join these galvanizing cautionary tales . . , Taylor and Johnson have made a gripping contribution to the literature of the wrongly accused. They remind us of the importance of constitutional checks on prosecutorial abuse. And they emphasize the lesson that Duke callously advised its own students to ignore: if you’re unjustly suspected of any crime, immediately call the best lawyer you can afford."--Jeffrey Rosen, New York Times Book Review
Links
Motions and Documents
- Attorney General's Report
- DNA motion
- Lineup motion
- Supplementary lineup motion
- Change of venue motion
- Bar amended complaint/Nifong response
- December 15 hearing
- State Bar v. Nifong
- Brewer removal motion
- Nifong December 28 letter to Bar
- Nifong January 16 letter to Bar
- Group of 88 statement (removed from Duke website)
- Group of 88 membership
- Transcript of relevant sections, April 4 "identification" "procedure"
168 comments:
Perfectly reasonable, as has been the delay by the new prosecutors in dismissing the remaining charges. As a matter of both good practice and appearing to engage in good practice, they really do need to review the entire file in detail before making a decision, presumably (unless the laws of physics were repealed during the night in question) before asking for the court to dismiss the remaining charges with prejudice and, also presumably, indicting the false accuser for the various crimes she appears to have committed.
Orthogonally: while both propriety and, in some cases, law both does and IMHO should prevent the public identification of an accuser in a real rape case, at what point would you choose to stop using the "accuser" euphemism and refer to the actual accuser by name?
I'm sure you know it, as do I. I think there's ample reason to name the woman, and the only reason I won't do so here is out of respect for your decision not to use her name on your blog. My own take is that when it becomes clear that an accuser is making a clearly false accusation, her (or his) anonymity should no longer be preserved, and it's long been clear that this isn't merely a matter where reasonable outside observers can disagree as to whether or not the accusations were utterly false, but one where only a moron, a racist, or a tenured Duke professor -- and not all of those -- would hold out any but a distant theoretical possiblity that this was other than another Tawana Brawley case.
One more orthogonal question: based on what you know and can reasonably speculate, what do you think really was the reason or reasons for the false accusation in the first place?
Another top headline at today's N&O site: "Durham's Drinking Water Fails Test - After initially claiming it passed, Durham submitted lead test results to state regulators Monday that confirm the city's drinking water failed to meet federal safety standards by a wide margin."
Wikipedia: The symptoms of chronic lead poisoning include neurological problems, such as reduced IQ.
How do you spell correlation?
MGM
Sad, But True, And Maryland Esquire Notwithstanding, There. Will. Be. A. Trial.
Sad, But True, And Maryland Esquire Notwithstanding, There. Will. Be. A. Trial.
You mean a trial of the lying prostitute, CGM?
I'm still not sure of a trial. Granted, the political pressure on the prosecutors and state AG to have a trial is immense, but this is a case that every attorney in the state (including Irving Joyner) knows is bogus to the bone. (Since Nifong is likely to be disbarred, he is in the soon-not-to-be-an-attorney classification.)
Furthermore, a real-live meeting with the defense is good. Remember, Nifong REFUSED to meet with attorneys the entire time, except to accost them in the hall and scream obscenities at them.
I say this having no respect whatsoever for prosecutors and the judicial system in North Carolina, but even these people, as craven and dishonest as they are, have to bend to truth once in a while.
I just don't understand why the defendants would want the hearing delayed if they are, as they claim, innocent. These boys probably just want more time for their high fa luting lawyers to spread their lies in the media. ;-)
Seriously, though, doesn't this seem like a good thing for the defense?
I just don't understand why the defendants would want the hearing delayed if they are, as they claim, innocent. These boys probably just want more time for their high fa luting lawyers to spread their lies in the media. ;-)
Seriously, though, doesn't this seem like a good thing for the defense?
There will be no trial.
The AG knows there is no case here to answer.
This goes so far beyond only having he said/she said evidence that it makes your typical date rape allegation look like iron clad evidence of guilt. There isn't even any evidence that SEX took place here, the woman's own statements make each other impossible.
The only significant question is how much cover the AG will give to Nifong and how many political sops they will throw to the black community.
Will they say straight out there is no evidence a crime occured or will they say no crime can be proven in a court of law.
In all liklihood there was never even going to be a trial under Mike Nifong, though how he expected to get out of this unscathed is beyond me.
To the 12.54:
I would say, yes, this is a good thing for the defense--just because it shows that this group of prosecutors is willing to talk to them. Quite an improvement over Mr. Nifong!
It is over my friends. If the defense agreed to the change and said the meeting went well, all this means is that the State has probably already stated that they know this case is BS and as soon as enough time has passed to make it appear they thoroughly reviewed everything to the public they will dismiss. No way would the defense let 2-5-07 be delayed if they did not know for sure the case was on the way out the door.
12:18
The reason for the false accusation was probably a combination of several things, the most important being a desire to stay out of jail or rehab. Most people following the case are fairly certain that the 'escort' was doing more than spending polite time with her gentlemen callers, she was working as a prostitute. That night when the police officer found her she was disoriented due to drugs or drink, may have serviced other clients that day, making her in violation of the law and her probation, as well as possibly fearful that the boys would complain about her taking their moeny for 5 minutes of bad stripping. We don't k now what her mental history is, only that it is relevant enough that the judge gave it to the defense. Thus, we can't know what might have happened to her, possibly being put in the psych ward if she had conjured up a white man gang rape allegation to keep her out of trouble.
However, I think it's possible, even likely, given her line of work that she has been raped in the past. Her first allegation that her boyfriend and his gang banger friends raped her, could even be true. It certainly fits the pattern of rape more so than her incredile story against the Duke players.
I also don't think she ever intended for the case to last beyond her getting out of trouble that night. That's why she didn't ID anyone until the police put her in a position where she 'had' to. We may never know the kind of pressure that they put on her, threats or whatever they may have subtly made.
It doesn't excuse falsely accusing and identifying real, living people of a brutal, racist gang rape that never happened. But there are some extenuating circumstances that show this woman is also a victim, just not of the Duke players.
Chicago
I agree, I think everyone, including the AG's office can be fairly sure that if the woman was put on the stand Feb. 5th there is a very, very high chance that she would come up with an ENTIRELY NEW set of facts. This is what she had done nearly every time she has been 'interviewed', even on occvasion changing her facts for no apparant reason.
The AG is not going to let this happen and be embarrassed by the woman perjuring herself on the stand making up new elements to her story to cover up the obvious lies she has already told.
I think that it is significant that the report states that the 2-5-07 hearing has been postponed "indefinitely." I think as a matter of professional courtesy, the defense was obliged to agree to a continuance, but they could reasonably have insisted that it be continued to a date certain and this could have been arranged easily by a conference call to the judge. An indefinate continuance implies to me that neither side is anticipating that the hearing will ever occur. This is speculation on my part and I may be reading too much into it.
I don't think the defense could have 'insisted' the hearing go on as scheduled. I very much doubt that the judge would refuse to grant a continuance to the AG's office given how recently they have taken over the case.
The fact that the defense and AG have cordially agreed to post pone it and that no second date has been set I agree, tells me that it will never be rescheduled.
Hey, looks like there are some ethical prosecutors out there; or is it the Nifong effect?
Prosecutor drops assault charges
The real task of the new prosecutors taking over the case is that they will interview all the major players including Nifong, DPD, Wilson and the "accuser".
There are a lot for these people to be afraid of, I wonder who will be the first not cooperate and lawyer up.
Polanski has another controversial posting up on Duke Basketball thread. It's on reparations.
About time someone brought this topic up, because Duke's "commitment" to blacks as expressed in affirmative action and black studies has its conceptual basis in reparations.
Go Polanski. Posted 1:19.
I wouldn't count on anything happening to Gottlieb and Wilson. Nifong and the woman will take the fall.
The AG has no desire to expose police corruption or their willingness to 'play along' with their unethical prosecutor even though it included the fictional 40 page memo, harrassing and lying about the cab driver, and lying about injuries on the woman that don't exist.
1:23
Good point.
You would think that the defense lawyers would want to make sure that the new DAs did not put of the hearing until next year.
The fact that they did not insist upon a new date would indicate they do not expect the case to go forth.
Sorry, Chicago. The defense lawyers agreed to the delay because they knew the Judge would grant a continuance if the state asked for one. As for saying "the meeting went well," what could you expect them to say? There is nothing in it for them to say otherwise at this stage. They, like all of us, are still hoping for a dismissal. But it's not coming. The AG does not want some NAACP-backed hotshot running against him for Governor (and that's the end of the story). Nifong is not an outlier for proceeding with this case, he's an outlier for doing it in such a stupid manner.
Maybe those that have expressed sympathy for the false accuser have a point. She should be nicknamed "Tituba" after the slave woman that played an instigating role in the Salem witchcraft trials. No doubt, pressure was put upon "Tituba" to give up some "witches" once this thing got rolling. Very few of us have the courage to be a "Giles Corry" when the inquisition awaits. The Duke/Durham community represents one of many prime hunting grounds for modern day witches (the privileged white male.
1:32 PM
the Judge would grant a continuance if the state asked for one
Continuance, implies a firm date, they left without one.
I would say we should expect the charges to be dismissed within 4-6 weeks.
Then, hopefully, the falsely accused will file civil suit against the false accuser and the City of Durham.
Correction
Looks like May, of course they could advance the schedule.
Our attorneys met today with the judge and defense attorneys to discuss scheduling in these cases and all motions have been stayed until May," Attorney General Roy Cooper said in a statement.
1:24 PM
Imagine that! A prosecutor being ethical! Guess that is a once-in-a-million occurrence!
If a trial goes foward the FA will take it to the end. She knows she can change her story again and nothing will happen to her because she has the backing of the african american community and alot of other supporters.
Never happen. The AG will have dismissed this case long before May.
Can anyone rationally think it would take them 3 more months to review Nifong's case file?
We already know the accuser was only interviewed 2-3 times totaly, Kim interviewed only once, the cab driver interviewed once, then harrassed...there hasn't been any new information generated by Nifong since last May. He has purposely NOT conducted any interviews because he knew all interviews would tend to uncover more exculpatory evidence that the woman was an unstable liar.
She has to change her story again. Wilson & Nifong may let the photos, timeline and the "magical" white towel go by, but the new DAs will not. And could you imagine her on the stand?
lol
is anybody investigating the harassment and intimidation of the cab driver (who was a witness)?
Isn't that blatant violation of law from Nifong and his cronies and itself reason to prosecute Nifong?
1:44
Unfortunately, I don't think so. Strictly speaking, legally the arrest warrant for the cabbie was still out there, in effect.
Of course the fact that the real thief never, as far as I know, said he was 'in on it' or gave any testimony that would suggest he was guilty of anything, would normally have resulted in the charge being dismissed.
Instead, of course, they put the screws to him, in the hopes that he would change his story, or if not, they could get a criminal conviction on his record and use it to discredit him. In reality, yes, it is abuse of prosecutorial discretion but I don't think it could be proven.
To those who say the Feb. 5 trial extension would be 'automatic'...I disagree. This was primarily to hear the motion on the 'bad' line up. I can't beleive the defense attorneys would agree w/out a major fight unless something else was going on. How long would it take the new prosecutors to get up to speed on that motion? Heck...just read DIW posts and everything you need to to know about it is there!
In Wisconsin we have a major murder case going on involving DNA...the prosecutors asked for a few weeks delay to test some new evidence..and the judge said no. I realize WI and NC are not the same, but I don't think delays by the prosecution are automatic anywhere.
I know a lie-detector test is not admissible in court,but I would like to see the AG give her one.
IMO, Gottlieb is not in the clear.
At some point, Nifong will deploy the "that guy over there misled me" defense. Only, rather than this being Brodhead, Sheehan, et. al., blaming Nifong, it will be Nifong blaming Gottlieb.
I believe that in the early hours of this case, Gottlieb assured Nifong that (1) he had DNA from semen taken from inside the AV, (2) the AV had sworn that she had not had sex with any other man in the past week, ergo (3) the hated Duke lacrosse players could be proven guilty of rape.
Just wait... at some point, Nifong will have to blame someone else for his behavior... and it is my guess that that someone is Gottlieb.
to the lawyers: from a non-lawyer/retired professor: What happens if Gottlieb, Linwood Wilson, Nifong etc. take the 5th when they are interviewed by the new prosecutors?
Polyanna's got nothing on this thread.
2:04
That can't be right since the rape exam did not find any semen or DNA on her. The first statements from the defense lawyers was that there wasn't any evidence she had sex that night.
The private lab test was ordered because the rape exam did not find what one would expect based on her testimony. So, it cannot be laid at Gottlieb's feet.
It was Mike Nifong that decided a rape occured and when the rape kit results didn't show what he expected, he upped the ante and sent it out to a private lab, where he expected to find some evidence that supported her story...condom residue or DNA that the less sensitive test had overlooked.
When DNA not only failed to substantiate the woman's story, but flatly contradicted her statement of no sex for a week, he should have re evaluated the case at that time.
Gottleib was following orders. IF anything he will turn on Nifong, but I doubt it.
I've believe that Nifong at first thought he had the perfect case.
But when the DNA came back negative he know he made a mistake. He was not man enough to admit it, in fact he tried to cover up the DNA evidence, pure evil.
- The physical injuries of the "accuser" are non existing.
- The DNA did identify the innocent.
- The accuser changes her story multiple times.
- Photos, the nieghbor and the second dancer make for a impossible timeline.
- 2 of the accused have alibis.
Nifong was trying to make a name for himself and he did. Just not the one he wanted.
1:07pm
I don't think that the meeting was as open as you might think. Although the AG might have already realized that the case is a complete hoax, I'm sure that the AG's people will be reviewing all documents well enough to be able to recite them from memory should they ever have to justify their decision to drop the charges to any of their constituencies. I would guess that the document volume will double in size through the AG's outlining of events and re-interviewing of relevant parties.
The fact that we've heard nothing from the defense attorneys most likely says that they are confident in the abilities and motives of the AG's lawyers.
It's an outrage if these three young men have to swing in the wind for three more months. Is that likely? What the hell is going on?
2:13
I agree. At the beginning Nifong thought this was a real rape case. Don't forget that a big part of the condemnation stemmed from the American Psycho email.
Once Nifong saw how the case and his 'support' of the black 'victim' was helping him at the polls, he went for the jugular.
When he got the DNA results in April he knew he could not drop the case and win the election. He chose to continue with a tranparently false felony criminal case for another 9 months, digging himself in deeper by his comments, lies and his misleading statements.
Unfortunately for him by the time he was elected he had already provided a trail of misconduct that would never go uncovered given the financial resources of the boys and their families.
His goose was cooked, no getting out of it, when his conspiracy to hide the exculpatory DNA evidence was made public. Don't forget though, it took the best lawyers in North Carolina over SEVEN MONTHS to pry this information out of him.
2:05pm
I would guess that the investigators will be given immunity for any testimony that will incriminate Nifong. So, Gottlieb and the other investigators will get off clean if they can open the door for criminal prosecution of Nifong or insure his disbarment. The entire NC legal system has been embarrassed by this conspiracy. I wouldn't be surprised if the bar has already been given marching orders to give Nifong no slack at all.
I'm sure that Meehan has already been given immunity against prosecution for his testimony in the DNA hearing. Of course, his "oversight" might just be a misdemeanor. Anyway, the prize in these "other" proceedings will be Nifong. Disbarred at the very least. In prison, calling a 350lbs convicted murderer daddy, in the best possible scenario. I'm looking forward to visiting him.
KC....what do you think Meehan's situation is now from a legal standpoint?
The potential political game from the hearing is not as obvious as some posters think. If the AG goes ahead with the hearing, and the false accuser collapses on cross in front of the whole world, as is likely, the AG will then be identified with her and be dragged down. Of course, no one can now what will happen, but the idea that proceeding with the trial is a risk-free is simply wrong. The easiest way is to say that there is not evidence of a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt, blame Nifong and the cops, and the heat is minimal.
I would hope that the prosecutors would act ethically, but even if they dont, political calculation still means drop the charges.
2:21 PM #1
"It's an outrage if these three young men have to swing in the wind for three more months. Is that likely? What the hell is going on?"
This is how it works. Believe it or not, the system is currently doing it's job. It's fortunate that things have gotten to this point. Just another day in criminal justice; don't get too worked up.
RP has a few interesting posts on reparations and what should be taught about race in universities.
Saw the first post about 1:15.
Trinity 87
Don't think Meehan committed any crime, the legal burden of turning over evidence rested on Mike Nifong. Meehan is unethical, and broke the rules for his own profession, but I doubt that even rises to a civil case, let alone a criminal one.
Mike Nifong, on the other hand, broke the law. Clearly and repeatedly.
I've yet to hear anyone put forth a remotely reasonable defense that would account for all of his actionsw.
Sorry, RP's post is on Professor Johnson's basketball link.
2:05pm
I doubt that any of the DPD or Wilson will get a deal.
Meehan is talking and Nifong went to those meetings with two DPDs.
They need to worry about lawsuits.
No one can give them imunity to the civil lwasuits.
I expect the major players to clam up. They would be idiots to talk to be interviewed by the new prosecutors.
They must also know that a Fed probe although not likely, is still a very real possiblity.
I'll go out on a limb and predict that the charges will be dropped during the week of March 12, which coincides with Duke's spring break.
2:04
re giving Precious a polygraph
I think the poly is a very good tool to use when you have a he said/she said, with no physical evidence. Precious would have failed, and no charges would have been brought (assuming Nifong wasn't the pros).
The law has to change as well re criminalizing false accusers.
RP
I disagree. There are good reasons why polygraphs are not admitted at trial and there is also evidence that real emotional trauma can cloud the results, making actual,proven rape victims look less credible.
Given the woman's alleged mental problems and delusions she might even PASS a lie detector test.
polygraph may not be useful in court, but for a prosecutor they are useful.
Most DAs will agree to give a accused person a poly.
-As a investigative tool, you can look for cracks in a story.
-A DA can get a feel for how the accused with be on the witness stand.
In this case DPD refuse the offers of a poly. Which tells you that at that point in time, they knew they had made a mistake.
Left out
They lock the accused in to a story.
A win win for a DA
Justice denied once again to the accused in this case. You can write the facts of this case on the back of an envelope, but Mr. "big time" AG needs three more months. WHAT A CROCK!
Three more months at $80,000.00 a month is outrageous. May - over fourteen months before getting a trial date. This has got to be investigated by Gonzales. And still no motions ruled upon. Are we in America?
Three more months at $80,000.00 a month is outrageous. May - over fourteen months before getting a trial date. This has got to be investigated by Gonzales. And still no motions ruled upon. Are we in America?
2:58 PM
Yes, this is absolutely normal. They could go with public defenders. What would you do in their shoes? Why the sudden outrage?
It will not take three months to dismiss the case.
Don't forget the AG is a political animal and the case has to be dealt with in a way that is as bullet proof from the inevitable 'white power' claims as possible.
Setting a "May" as the next time for the hearing gives the impression of full steam ahead. In reality, the AG already knows the case is a 'crock' and will dismiss it.
If they do it too quickly they will be criticized, better to be able to demonstrate how thoroughly they went through all the evidence than to be too hasty.
The black community will never accept anything less than a trial and a conviction on something...so they have to tread lightly.
The last I checked...a polygraph measured pulse, blood pressure, breathing rate and sweat (conductivity)...many a sociopath has calmly fooled the "box" ..and many an innocent "Casper Milquetoast" type has sweated his way to endless accusation....the only people that support this sort of thing are the ones that make a living off of the "snake oil". The same remains true of voice stress analyzers. The only thing that I have seen on TV that works every time is Mr. Spocks' "Vulcan Mind Meld".
3:02 - No sudden outrage. If these guys had public defenders, they wold have started their thirty years jail sentence five months ago. Although, I like to think a top notch lawyer would have done the case pro bono. So much for a speedy trial.
There isn't any speedy trial right in North Carolina. I actually think even a mediocre public defender could still get acquittal if the trial was moved out of Durham, even without the exculpatory DNA.
The woman's testimony is too 'out there' and is contradicted by to many hard facts.
Think of the resources that the State of North Carolina is using and is forcing individuals to use in this farce of a case. With legal fees in the millions of dollars, it is obvious that the state is trying to see if it can bleed the families dry and get some plea bargain from them.
This is nothing but old fashioned kidnapping, except when the state does it, we call it "justice." I guess that "North Carolina Justice" is an oxymoron.
The only thing the Black community has to do with this case is that they made it a race issue,other then that this case has nothing to do with the Black community.Who cares if they except anything less?
3:03 Are you saying the NC AG has to appease special interests like, say, the NC NAACP and Jesse and the Gang of Sob Sisters? They are already know 'something happened'. Why not 'do the right thing' and impress honest folks?
MTU'78
3:38
They might do the right thing and say there is no evidence any assault took place and recommend the woman be charged.
But from a political perspective, they might choose the middle ground, dismissing the charges but refusing to say that evidence indicates they are false.
Dismissing the charges is what the families want. Nifong's career is over. So, it would be prudent to leave the black community with a little fig leaf, since they will continue to believe a rape occured no matter what.
All I can say is I have seen 'precious' little stand up honesty from any elected officials including judges in this case, why should the AG be any different?
There. Will. Be. No. Trial. (at least not trying the 3 young men)
There. Will. Be. Lawsuits. (Lots of them)
BDay
I hope so, what I'm really afraid of is the families will decide to move on with their lives and will forgo suing the complainant or the City of Durham.
I assume that the cost of defense must be over 1 million per player. It is hence, unlikely, that the families will not go after those with deep enough pockets and enough liability to win the case. The entire Lacrosse team, the famiies, and the young men are pretty convincing that hey are innocent of the charges, and as such, I don't think they'll be afraid of discovery, but Duke nad others will....
BDay
I hope they do not "move on with their lives" and forget civil suits. This is equivalent to the death of a child ---- the death of their children's should-have-been-futures. If my child were killed or ruined by criminals like durham/Nifong, I would NOT move on. I would fight as any surviving parent would for their kid's memory. In this case, it's a memory of what might have been if their lives weren;'t detroyed.
I watched the Cheshire/Smith interviews on WRAL and I gotta say they appeared very subdued. Very subdued. I wonder if they are suspicious that a trial is going to happen b/c the AG office interviewed CGM or something else. I wonder if they are disappointed at the pace...May 7. That's almost 14 months after the non-event.
Jacki said CGM has representation now. I wonder if that will help move it along or if that will hinder the case.
Their being innocent doesn't guarantee a win in a civil suit.
Suing the complainant and winning, while it would be the final nail in the coffin of the true believers, won't get them any money.
I don't think they have a suit against Duke and I don't think they will sue Duke.
In order to win a settlement or trial against the City of Durham they have to first disabuse Mike Nifong of his absolute immunity, that is no simple task. I don't know of the DPD actions, however disgusting, rise to the level of provable, legal misconduct, but maybe they do.
I would guess that if they can make a strong case against Nifong that eliminates his absolute immunity they might get a solid multi million settlement from Durham.
But, since truth and rationality are in short supply, Durham could choose to fight it, Durham is still the government, with a basically infinitely deep pocket.
--1:30pm---I agree with some others.
RP or Roman Polanski, whose real name is Jim Clyne, is mentally ill. He posts with multiple names on this website.
Not someone to champion a cause. The Duke case and the reparations cause aren't that hard up to need his bs. Ole RP should be careful because there are many ways for him to be sued.
4:04
Maybe they are being careful not to antagonize the AG or inflame anyone's emotions unnecessarily.
I can't believe the AG will take the case to court. If that happens we should all pack up and move to Canada because 'justice' is dead.
Also don't believe the case will still be alive in May. It's an artificial date set far enough in the future to protect the AG.
Poster 2:28pm is ole RP, or rather Jimmy Clyne, tooting his own horn.
What a doofus.
The families will sue, they'll have to. While these families seem to have been fairly well off before this mess started, no one can afford the fees already racked up, well the Gate family and some of the Rockefellers and Kennedys but not these folks.
And don't think Gottlieb will get a pass, he is in as deep, or deeper, than Nifong. Gottlieb does not have the Bar covering his six o'clock like lawyers do. Not many like cops. Gottlieb is standing under a manure pile sliding down a steep hill. No one will have his back. The other police involved will roll on him to protect their own pensions and homes.
This will never go to court.
1 - They will interview the "accuser" ask her some real questions and the "accuser" will give a new story.
2 - Many of the major players would be stupid to cooperate, they will lawyer up.
3 - The "Line-up" hearing will need to happen. This includes the "Accuser" being questioned by the defense lawyers. With no jury present, count of a very tough questioning.
4 - Meehan will be interviewed and he will implicate the two DPD officers who went with Nifong to discuss hiding the DNA.
I thought Finnerty's father ran a hedge fund? If so, they are 'rich, rich' in that most hedge fund managers make double diget millions a year.
That actually gives me hope that they will sue, not because they need the money to pay for legal fees but because Finnerty's family can afford it.
It will be very important how this case is dismissed. The wording should not be because of insufficient evidence or that it cannot be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. The lawyers for the defense must insist that it will be dismissed by the AG because it simply was a lie in the first place. These young men need complete exoneration. No bs legal talk will restore their damages. I also hope that the little lier/prostitute will end up being charged for bringing a false case. It's time everyone stop kissing her sorry rear end.
If I was guessing it will be short and sweet "case dismissed in the interest of justice" possibly with the "prosecutors have a responsibility to bring cases to trial that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, this case does not meet that burden"
4:05
The mediocrity reverts to ad feminam/hominem attacks.
If you don't realize that the reparations debate is the conceptual foundation of affirmative action and black studies, then you're not cognitively prepared to post on this site.
RP
Who cares how they dismiss it. 99% of the 'normal' folks in the world--not just the US--will understand it was a bogus prosecution.
Also, the civil suit will not need any seed money. Those attorneys typically work on a contigent fee. My guess is that they will file in Federal court (civil rights violated) where there are no state limits on monetary awards.
KC-
You haven't followed up on the news about the Feb. 5th hearing being delayed so I was hoping I could pose a couple questions you might address later this evening or at 12:01AM.
1) It's true the postponement was expected, but is the magnitude of the delay a surprise? May 7th seems very far away.
2) Does the magnitude of the delay reflect in any way the Special Prosecutor's initial assessment of the case? Do you view this as an affirmative conclusion that "we think there might be something here" or is this just the first post assignment reaction from the special prosecutors indicating what it will take to reinvestigate this case?
3) If the special prosecutors started from zero, how could it take 3 and a half months to investigate this party? This was a college party, not the collapse of Enron or Worldcom. What's going on?
4) If the special prosecutors choose to move forward and prosecute the three players, do you believe Nifong's removal ultimately hurt the players by granting the state a "do-over" investigation?
5) The most important question: Can Durham-in-Wonderland survive until May 7th?
Thanks for considering the questions and all the hard work.
I care, I want the AG to make it clear these kids are innocent. I don't think it will happen, but it's worth putting some pressure on SOMEONE in the North Carolina government to do the right thing.
It's a good point about the contingency fee, but the plaintiffs are still on the hook for the associated costs, but that is a point in favor of civil suits coming.
4:18 said: I also hope that the little lier/prostitute will end up being charged for bringing a false case. It's time everyone stop kissing her sorry rear end.
They might not do anything to her in this case, but I would not be surprised if -- given her past -- she continues down the path she has chosen and will eventually wind up on inside of a prison cell. As a compassionate person, I hope not, but as a realist, I can see it happening.
4:48 is correct...I don't think the accuser needs any help from the Duke case for her 'career path'....just a matter of time!
What possible evidence could there be to support a charge?
The DNA doesn't fit her statement. The injuries doesn't fit her statement. Neither timeline fits the phone records. The second timeline is contradicted by Kim and the neighbor. The photos contradict both timelines for an assault. Kim contradicts her statements and most if not all the versions of her story. Add to that her prior false or unproven accusations of rape and assault and her criminal record and her mental health record.
Good point 4:47...but its like watching your favorite team: You hope they win in an easy blow-out...but a win is a win, even by 1 point.
Most of the media, at this point, has made it very clear this is a false prosecution...so much so that regardless of how the AG dismisses, everyone will know the truth. People will understand the bad politics here. If the AG had any credibility, he would have put a halt to this long ago....
4:57
It would be interesting to know what the real back story is, and when the powers that be decided Nifong had crossed one too many lines and was expendable. I always thought the AGs statements that he 'couldn't get involved were ridiculous, he's the lighest law enforcement officer in the state, unless it is explitely barred by law or regulation he can do whatever he wants, including appoint a special prosecutor in a high profile case.
I knew it was over for Nifoing when the DA's association released a public statement asking him to recuse himself and making a point of staying they'd offered him help but he declined. I've never heard of this, ever, an association of your peers telling you to step aside in an active case AND going out of their way to mention they offered you assistance and you never responded.
4:55 are you serious? Its called racial chickens--t. The NAACP says the boys are guilty so the AG is too chickens-- to mess with them too much. My guess is that he will wait until Irving Joyner is dead before he drops the charges!!
I also want to see the complainant sued in civil court because I want to see her change her story on the stand and prove beyond any doubt that she is a lying nut.
I don't think the families will go this far, since the media will still say she's a "victim" just a victim of Mike Nifong and her other 'problems'..
re: 4:17
I've read salary surveys of hedge fund managers and the bad ones make lower double-digit millions per year. The best are in triple-digits. My personal trading returns last year beat the average hedge-fund return but it's a whole different ballgame when you're dealing with huge amounts of money.
It doesn't matter if you're rich or poor though. Noone should have to go through this crap.
5:03
You're wrong. The charges will be dismissed. Black voters may mean a lot in Durham, but North Carolina is 70% white, the NAACP can't elect anyone statewide.
The AG doesn't want to get called a racist so he will be careful. But unless there is some super secret evidence that with his career in shambles Nifong failed to leak to the media, then there isn't any other evidence and no prosecutor in his right mind would take this case to trial.
Clyne @ 4:33pm-- The only way that you are cognitively prepared for anything today is because this might be the first time you haven't shown up on this website either drunk or on some kind of medication.
It's already been discovered that you are the person who continues to post using multiple names and having conversations with yourself.
Methinks you might be a little concerned about liability and are attempting to put on a show of moderation. For your own sake, keep up the moderation. A lot of us are tired of you.
Actually 4:55...you are dead on...which makes this case so perplexing. If the AG had any guts, he would tell his new prosecutors to review the material ASAP and then drop this problem even quicker.
5:03...I agree the charges will be dropped ...but not any time soon as they should be...Why?
Politics in politics. The AG didn't want to get involved before, because it's a loser for him. The AG also isn't going to 'uncover' any more misconduct than is absolutely necessary. These guys are all on the same team: AG, police, mayor, governor, ADAs. One of their own lost his marbles and now he will pay because he can no longer be protected or allowed to roam free. No one in NC government wants any long term inherent police corruption or good ole boys network quid pro quo to come out. That's why unless he truly has gone insane Mike Nifong will resign his office, he will never admit he was wrong or lied, but he will resign. It's inevitable.
5:04 makes a good point: I don't care how much money you have...going through an ordeal which could see a son or daughter falsely sent to prison...is a gut-wrenching ordeal. For this reason alone, Nifong and the false accuser should be dealt with severely.
Finnety's family money doesn't excuse or mitigate anything. It does mean if his father makes double digit millions every year that they can well afford to sue anyone and everyone. They can afford to spend MILLIONS not hundreds of thousands if they want to on civil actions.
5:08
What have you contributed to the debate this case engenders?
Dazzle me with your analyses and your creativity.
RP
Bad decision on the part of the defense UNLESS they really do have something they want to keep out of court. A delay of hearings until May means a trial in August / September. Speedy trial my @$$!
Why give the State more time? Makes no sense based on the information made public. Lest we not forget, the burden is and always has been on the State to PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendents assaulted and kidnapped the AV. Get CGM on the witness stand ASAP and get the real, real final and last version of the story in the record so she can be held liable on perjury if she changes it again.
What is to be gained by re-interviewing the witnesses? It's all in the record now. This is all politics now.
I don't know what Wade and Joe are doing but it sure seems "defensive" in nature. Who knows maybe a couple of witnesses will die of old age before we go to trial.
The defense team has overwhelming public support at this time, they got Nifong off the case, why should they not give the AG whatever time they ask for?? Even if they refused to agree to a continuence the judge would grant it anyway.
There isn't going to be any May hearing or any September trial.
5:25
Well said. The only people that will truly gain from the delay are the defense lawyers.
RP
This is a small but important battle in the war between congenial society and the Stalinists.
I'm sorry, I don't think you guys understand that this case has gone beyond the 'law' and moved into the realm of politics.
The defense gains nothing by alienating the attorney general's office. They tried in the beginning to play nice with Mike Nifong, but he threw dirt in their faces. It is in their best interests to maintain a good relationship with the lawyers that are going to decide what happens.
To 5:32
Why? This has always been and will always be adversarial; it's how the system works for crying out loud.
Never assume that if you play nice the prosecution will be nice in return.
5:32
Have you ever heard the adage, "Enough is enough"?
The defense has already checkmated the prosecution. The only thing left is for the prosecution to figure out a way to charge the real perpetrator, Crystal Gail Mangum.
RP
Well, actually most defense lawyers maintain cordial working relationships with prosecutors. All lawyers are taught that truth and justice are irrelevant, it's about what can be admitted and proven in the courtroom, so normally they keep the 'adversarial' stuff inside the courtroom.
I wouldn't count on the woman being charged if I were you.
5:41 re CGM won't be charged
I agree with you. Isn't it sad, pathetic--monstrous--that she won't be charged. She is a vile predator, and society gives her a pass.
Goody Goody
RP
She might just be an unstable nut, we don't know what's in her background as far as mental illness and substance abuse. We know she was in the hospital for 'nerves' and that she's committed at least one crime, is a sex worker and has made other unproven allegations.
I don't think she's a 'vile predator' there isn't any evidence she did this for money, and since the best she can do after nine months was to come up with an EVEN more preposterous timeline for her 'attack' she obviously hasn't been getting much consultation on how to help win her case.
I believe she should be charged with making a false report because because she has stuck to the story, even going so far as to change the timeline and pertinant facts and because her lie has cost the boys the lives they deserved, which they can never regain, they can never go back to what it was like before.
She belongs in the psych ward though not prison.
So....while all this goes on ,the Liefong is still the Durhan district 14 DA working on cases for the state.....Unbelievable !!!!!!????
Does Nifong still show up at work? Just curious.
5:53
This woman is not an out-of-this-world whacko. OK, she has bipolar illness. I've got it, and probably a lot of people have it. So what?
Ms Mangum's problem is her sociopathic personality. Do you think society should give bipolar sociopaths a free ride?
RP
I keep hearing there is no right to a speedy trial in NC. When did NC become a Country? The right to a speedy trial is in the US Constitution, if that right is violated, then it could be another civil rights violation under that.
Chicago is right.
This is just window dressing. Lipstick on the pig, before we cook it. The defense is working on their civil suits now, the criminal stuff is over. Question, does anyone think that Cooper might entertain a settlement with the dismissal? Or would that be too much to expect.
Am I dreaming?
Kemp
5:53, the accuser is a vile predator, who should spend time in jail for the destruction she has caused in his case. There should be no compassion shown this skank in the least. She told the lie and continues to lie and her clothing, i.e., underwear has told the truth. Five males - No lacrosse players. Enough Said!
It does not take 4 months to decide to drop this case. That is a ludicrous amount of time. Here in California, a defendant is entitled to go to trial 60 days after an indictment. These people need twice that amount of time to decide whether to proceed and get ready for a hearing.
I really hope that this hearing never happens and that the charges will be dropped before May ever gets here but if not - UGH! Collin, Reade and Dave have had their lives on hold long enough as it is. This will be four more months of waiting. And another four months that there families will have to fork over legal fees.
Kemp
"lipstick on the pig"?
KC, Kemp came up with your book title.
LOL, RP
Ever been falsely accused? Of anything?
It shakes your identity so powerfully, that you find it difficult to think clearly about anything - eating, sleeping, watching a movie...
The entire world becomes surreal as you wander through a haze of distorted reality. You cannot get past it. Go to school!? Study!? With waves of coritsol flooding your brain every few minutes, you cannot process information, working memory is impaired, you have difficulty interacting with anyone - families, friends, teachers... You start to distrust anyone, you become increasingly withdrawn.
How do you get past it. In order to solidly re-connect with even a revised reality, you must re-establish truth. The brain MUST find a way to map its programming back to some form of affirmed reality.
You WANT a trial, you NEED a trial - not some mealy-mouthed "unproven", not some "not enough evidence". You need to have your say.
I'd bet $1,000 and a one-year stay in pen, as just an observer, that the boys and their families have made it clear to counsel that this is what they want. Rae said this in effect - picked on the wrong people, and it will never be over for Nifong.
The defense really doesn't care about 3 more months, they want all the ducks in a row - every last tiny detail ready to match a strategy, and very specific tactics.
It is not about the accuser anymore, it is about making the boys whole, for the long term. The blogosphere comentators, justly infuriated as they are, must understand this. nothing in these boys lives have ever prepared them for this kind of situation. If you are brought up in tougher situations, you develop some armour for various forms of injustice. If you have been more sheltered, this kind of situation can be shattering. Look at Reade's face. Listen to Evans courtroom steps speech.
Your entire evaluation of risk and the value of some reward changes dramatically. What from the outside might seem wise, prudent, sensible becomes completely irrelevant. Why did Eden act as he did in the asinine water buffalo affair.
This is a strange time to be second guessing the defense and the family.
Mike
Mike
I sympathize with your empathy for the boys' plight. Some posters have correctly pointed out that this case is now about politics (as if it was ever anything else).
I hate to say this, but I fear that the boys will get no justice from the criminal justice system.
The bitch-slapping will occur in the criminal courts.
A personal note: I just consummated a feature-film deal with a major director, so I will only have the time to make occasional comments on this thread. I must say that KC Johnson, and the majority of posters on this site, have impressed me to no end. For those of you who hate my guts (and I don't blame you), I just won't be able to find the time to respond to you.
Jim Clyne
By the way, the most obvious explanation for the accuser's original behaviour is need.
You are a stripper/hooker. You have a handler - think that driver was a buddy?!!
You were totally lost on Flexeril and alcohol. You had an assignment. You screwed up, didn't dance, either didn;t get paid, or didn't get make enough, you come to with cops standing voer you headed who knows where.
What goes through your head - cops? overnight comittal? I don't think so... Holy shit where's my money! I gotta get the money cause I gotta pay the share over. If I can;t pay the share over, I'm really gonna get a beating. "Nikki"is gonna say I screwed up, I'm toast.
Hey, she (the nurse) mentioned did something happen. That's it, that's my way out... I was raped!!
Don't like the accuser - I don;t. Understand the accuser. She changed story umpteen times. She declined to identify the attackers. She told the N&O press the story because her handlers would read it - what, think she's gonna publicly say it didn;t happen!! Would you!! Want the handler visiting her with her two small kids in tow?
Every time someone like Nifong (see April 11) asks questions, she gets hysterical, and you get nothing from her. Put her on the stand - watch a breakdown in action.
You know what? In a funnny kind of way, its almost honest and ethical the way she has handled this. I absolutely despise her, but I understand it. Should she go to jail - damn right - she MUST.
The real villians of this piece are the Gottliebs, the Nifongs, Brodhead, Dean Sue, and the press. They need to be held accountable - and Cheshire's job is to see to it that they pay their piece of the price as a salutory educational effort.
Mike
erratum
I meant civil courts
To 5:40:
Many if not most local criminal defense attornies are not litigators, they're pleaders. Their courtroom skills are sad to non-existent. They foster their relationship with the ADAs in hope of getting a sweet deal and less work. (I guess you would too if you had 20 to 50 ongoing criminal cases)
In this case as far as I can tell from the information made public in defense motions this case is ready for trial, certainly for hearings on the motions to dismiss and exclusion of evidence.
What is there to be gained by delaying until May? I wonder???
Sorry that's attorneys (not attornies)
Anon 1:11PM,
Rapes, especially when done to children, can permanently ruin a life.
In may ways I'm convinced this case did not start in March of 2006. It started when some one raped CGM. She has been going around looking for the rapist(s) ever since.
Since looking in her own family (the likeliest place to look) would destroy the built in presumption that family is good, she projects what happened to her on the rest of the world. Especially if the molestation happened (started?) when she was pre-verbal.
Again, people are trying to diminish the severity of the civil liability of all of the players involved.
In civil cases, it doesn't matter whether you are at fault or not! What matters is how damaging a trial will be, how expensive it will be, and if the plaintiffs have a legitimate cause of action. All of the parties - Duke, Durham, FA - will be in court, and Duke and Durham face federal cases for civil rights and other federal violations that will at least go to discovery.
Don't focus on whether or not the LAX players will win. Consider whether they have a claim that can make it to discovery. Case history says that they will assuredly make it to discovery, although a final decision is not assured. Now do Duke or Durham want to face Federal discovery? They would be forced to produce every email, memo, phone call, etc that referenced the case and much of the work of their attorneys would be vulnerable to discovery as it was in furtherance of a conspiracy rather than protected work product.
If the plaintiff has enough money, they will ALWAYS find the smoking gun buried on some email server. The "Whtiewater" investigation about some dodgy land deal in Arkansas led to a pudgy intern who didn't do laundry frequently.
Neither Duke nor Durham wants the vicious, flesh-eating piranhas that the Evans and Finnerty families will let loose to have access to everything on their email servers. You don't want an unreasonably angry plaintiff. You really don't want a rich plaintiff. A lawyer is an absolutely horrible plaintiff, he'll draft motions for the hell of it, or have a few of his junior associates do it. A senior partner of a major DC law firm and a successful bond-trader are nearly the worst plaintiffs imaginable (Bruce Wasserstein - HBS, HLS, and a billionaire with media investments - or Bill Gates would be worse, but not appreciably). Plus Rae Evans called out Nifong on National TV, promising to be his own personal Jacob Marley for the rest of his life.
Duke and Durham will get the same advice from their lawyers that Nifong got when he hired Freedman: Settle, settle as quickly as possible, at whatever terms are offered! They need to end the bleeding and neither party can sustain a daily media onslaught about the injustice of the police, the spinelessness of the administration, and the hostility of the faculty to their students.
It doesn't matter what the truth is, or who will win at trial. The LAX players win every day the civil cases go on, and Duke & Durham lose. The players don't even need to pay their civil attorneys, while Duke & Durham know they will have to pay both sides lawyers. It's the opposite of the criminal situation, and the families will only be happy to make them eat it.
Brodhead has always been taking expedient action to minimise publilcity and damage to Duke. He screwed the players, but that same impetus will lead him to settle rapidly. This time expedience and the spinelessness of the administration will serve the LAX players (and hopefully Pressler).
5:08
Sorry--medicated, drunk, bipolar, multiple personality, whatever...RP nevertheless expresses brilliant and incisive ideas remarkably well. His language is the London Symphony to your high school marching band. No offense. It's blatantly obvious.
7:23
I'm about to go out for a pint or 2.
Was that an insult or a compliment?
Ah, it doesn't matter. I like my critics, too. They do make me laugh. Honestly, I'm sure I'd have a good time with Wahneema and Holloway if I ever got the chance to know them personally. That's one of the true enigmas of the case.
RP
I am not second guessing the defense--they know exactly what they are doing. But I am furious with the entire government in the state of North Carolina. I agree there needs to be a public exoneration, but there is not a single chance that this long postponement is anything other than political cover. The entire case file could be digested plus witnesses interviewed in the space of about two weeks. It is NOT a complicated case.
Is the march on February 4 still proceeding as planned?
RP, of course affirmative action is a form of the reparations that should have been paid after the Civil War...but the country was in no position, politically or financially, to pay them. As to the question of how long for affirmative action...depends on the goal, doesn't it? Do we just want to feel that we have served justice in some way--even though that true justice is an unattainable goal--or are we hoping to integrate fully the black community into the American dream? As far as I know, Africa is just getting some forms of an education system in some places. I think most of the continent is too caught up with mere survival to sustain for long the luxury of education even in its simplest forms. Maybe an anthropologist could address this question--how long does it take for a population with no significant tradition of education to catch up with populations that have enjoyed a rich educational tradition for centuries? I remember a professor saying once that Shakespeare (and other acknowledged geniuses) arise from a rich educational heritage--and although progress has been made educationally in the black community, there is still a long way to go. It would be interesting to see a report about how effective affirmative action has been, if at all, in fast tracking the acquisition of an educational tradition.
Observer
Carolyn says:
1:11 You make very credible points for Crystal being pressured into filing a fake rape charge by Nifong (especially given what he did to Kim and Moez Mostafa). But Nifong's gone and she is STILL lying. Someone can go only so far in blaming others before finally they must choose to admit it's their fault. That is the hallmark of an adult.
Crystal has chosen to reach through the bars of her crib and stab everyone with her diaper pins.
Bill Anderson at 3:34,
The state of NC deserves your cynicism, and for the good guys, the situation is a travesty. It is probably incredibly difficult for the families to endure the next several months without vindication.
But the whole case has moved into another realm. The situation became policitized, but now it's "celebricized". I feel bad for the three kids, but now they've made the big time - and they need to endure a few more months of uncertainty.
The defense attorneys are quite competent. They spent their major investment correctly, examining Meehan's detailed results between Oct 27th and Dec. 13th - producing the nail in Nifong's coffin! The defense attorneys also have had the advantage of hearing out 46 explanations of that night and concluding that they were all consistent. The answer to them, I believe, is how to extract the maximum value out of this inevitable situtation for themselves and their clients. It's become a once in a lifetime opportunity for the defense attorneys. At this stage, if their clients never paid another bill, they'd hardly care (well almost - they are attorneys).
BECAUSE THEY WILL INEVITABLY WIN. They will win inevitably, because of (1) the evidence and (2) the truth, (3) their competence and (4) us. KC and the bloggers will NEVER stop until this is over - in favor of the kids. Good for the kids, because they deserve it.
The defense has probably cut a deal with their attorneys to share and maximize the potential economic proceeds of this case to include (1) the civil lawsuits, (2) the book and movie deal and (3) the speaking circuit. All well deserved, strongly educational outputs of the hoax and capitalism. The celebritization of the case is gonna just wreck all the bad guys.
So what did the fly on the wall see at the meeting today? It was attended by a replacement DA who knows he has an enormous, unprecidented political problem and the Cheshire Cat defense team, who conveyed what? I have no doubt they told the replacement DA that' "THE KIDS HAVE ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD TO MAKE YOU LOOK LIKE A TOTAL JERK AND DESTROY YOUR COLLECTIVE CAREERS AND EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T, THE DEFENSE TEAM WOULDN'T MISS THE OPPORTUNITY OF A LIFETIME IF THE FAMILIES MISS A PAYCHECK! YOU WANT TO DELAY IT - FINE, BECAUSE IT'S NOT GONNA IMPROVE THE DA'S POSITION. IN A YEAR, THE DA WILL BE JUDGED ON THE INTEGRITY OR NON-INTEGRITY OF YOUR ACTIONS". Then they went out and politely called them nice guys and let them off the hook, with the implicit understanding that if they dropped the case, they'd keep their names from being slopped over in the movie script.
Now, the defense attorneys are NOT compromising their case. But in every other way, they're playing for the high road and seeking to maximize the economic output of this disaster for themselves and the kids. I think no trial will happen because the celebritization of this case will absolutely assure the cooperation of the DA - they are walking on egg shells and they know it.
--7:23pm-- There's no need for you to worry. Ole RP or Roman Polanski isn't going anywhere. He got in trouble for his posts and since everyone knows his name is James Clyne, he's probably watching his ass now.
All of a sudden he's got a big contract and will be "busy". That crazy fool will just be posting shit anonymously, but if he continues with his trash there is always a way to find out if the posts are his. Don't worry, ole Clyne is glued to this website and he plays against a poster one day and the next day he's kissing the same poster's ass. Like CGM.
Methinks you are ole Clyne--already starting a new posting career with anonymous.
Clyne isn't dumb. He's just mentally ill. And his constant bullshit has gotten old.
Question to all:
How solid it Kim's testimony? What would we expect her to say if brought to the witness stand?
Thoughts?
MGM
to 6:24pm, these guys deserve a right to a speedy trial, I live in NJ and am a retired P/O. The clock for a "right to a speedy trial" starts with the indictment. I can't believe how screwed up NC is
Does anyone here know what the definition of a "right to a speedy trial" means in the US Constitution? Someone once said if it over a year, it is actionable. Who knows?
7:54 - your analysis, even if speculation to one degree or another, just has to be accurate. The defense attorneys have a challenge to keep the morale of their clients up - it is not easy for them to endure this without seeming end - but inasmuch as these attorneys know very much what they are doing - they have be, in what is really unprecedented for criminal defense attorneys, encouraged that the Government already has incurred a big mess of liability and that the potential for further missteps by the special prosecutor could create more. And of course, in opening up a line of communication with prosecutors, no doubt the defense team will provide very pointed direction towards opening up criminal inquiries against a number of actors, Nifong foremost, but the accused and Linwood and others as well.
The Dems in NC should call the bluff of the black vote. Will they be pimped by the Reps? Who cares? Will they sit out the vote? Who cares? Time for some good old fashioned hardball....take 'em to task. This is the majors, beeatch!
I think in California it is 180 days - go to trial or charges dropped.
While checking the news, came accross Nancy Disgraceful showing the jail menu on CNN.She makes it look like the inmates are eating at Chez Francois. I worked at the the Detention Center for five years. It is fourth class food - soggy - almost never any fruit - very little of it - taste is awful no matter what you do. Just another example of misinformation.
Poor Crystal is still wondering "How did this happen? I just wanted out of the drunk tank."
As bad an ordeal as this has been for the three Duke boys, it could have been much worse. Cousin Jakki could have been the one to show up as the stripper and the whole team would have been mentally and emotionally scarred for life!
8:39 PM
"The Dems in NC should call the bluff of the black vote."
The DEM's in NC will never stand up to the Black 'block' vote. Many of the seats are close and the 'block' is their hole card.
In fact, the vote won't turn out unless the activist groups like the NAACP drive an aggressive get out the vote effort.
Unfortunately, that's life in the small city and that's why the current DEM leaders will bow low.
It would be interesting to see a report about how effective affirmative action has been, if at all, in fast tracking the acquisition of an educational tradition.
Well, you could look at Head Start.
Jensen concluded long ago that it was money wasted ...
In any event, all such programs are simply designed to salve the feelings of liberals who don't understand the problem or the solutions. They simply want to feel good about doing something, anything.
Sue CGM - yes, it's the OJ approach, even though he (she) doesn't have any money, you can impound future earnings and make her life miserable, which should happen. She cannot be allowed to profit from this.
Sue Duke - yes, it will happen, and they will settle, the bad press they'd get from discovery will make them want out.
Sue Nifong - of course, under the non-immune cloak of investigator
Sue DPD - maybe, lawyers need to assess Wilsons & Gottlieb's liability, my sense is yes, they have some risk of being sued.
Sue Wendy Murphy - PLEASE !! And any other LAWYER who violates ethics codes and commits slander (e.g, The Black Panther Lawyer, Nancy Grace)
Sue Kim Curtis - Already being done
Sue Ruth Sheehan - can it be done?, she was slanderous in my opinion
Too bad we can't sue simply for stupidity (e.g The NAACP, many of the G88, etc...)
There is right and wrong in this world, and a lot of wrong has been done in Durham, it needs to not happen again !!
Bday
The state is taking the air out of the ball....the ole NC four corners offense.... . The lacrosse season will be over , all the students will have left the campus and opinion meisters will be serving up cold stew by May . Hard to argue with that strategy .
I am sorry to say but I agree that we who wish to have all of the dirty laundry hung out on the line , every incriminating e-mail , every minutes of meetings etc. will have to settle for the news that settlements have been arranged .
I think what happend today amount to:
The replacement DA agreed to the meeting because (1) they needed to get a sense if the defense has the resources to make pursuing this painful to the State and (2) if there is any other exculpatory evidence (i.e. Finnerty's non-public alibi, which has been expertly held close to the vest to thwart the next CGM creation).
The speculative, and probable implicit message from from the Cheshire Cat to the replacement DA in today's meeting:
1) We have enough money and support to finish this case without compromising the outcome in favor of our clients
2) The families are gonna see this thru to extract the maximum - they are no longer in a hurry to get a speedy trial, because the guilty in this affair will ultimately pay them for it. The families are now interested in maximizing the pain of their adversaries.
3) The outcome is inevitable. The inevitable outcome will result in a favorable outcome for the defense and a nasty PR failure for the state, along with a nasty PR and economic problem for many many others.
4) The DA is free to address what they need to address on their own timetable - because the defense is willing to give them all the tools they need to "make this right".
5) Play nice and don't make the defense mad, or there are inconceivable problems that the DA office will need to deal with...
They have basically given this replacement DA team "one chance", that they need to use - or else risk their own destruction in the public relations world. The price for the defense - Say courteous things about the DA, giving them the chance to "appear diligent and thorough".
That's why we have a cancellation of the Feb. 5th date, without a re-scheduled date. The defense's hand is way too strong here for the DA to play any games, and the DA can't count on them running out of money anymore. The DA has been given an honorable way out. Let's hope they are wise and take it.
As for the comment about the "passiveness and low-key disposition of the defense", 8-10 defense attorneys were in the room. I have no doubt that one of them (probably a member of a 4th law firm) found a way to sublety deliver the points 1-5 above.
7:57
You say mental illness where another says genius. Passion and creativity, among other traits, are often denigrated by those who cannot understand them. Just compare the quality of RP's prose to that of his detractors. The differences are astounding.
Head Start has not hurt anyone - It actually may have helped. The USA can afford the money. With the schools in such a mess - for black and white kids anything we can do should be done.
--9:46pm--Ok, ok RP. We know . We know.
Now go away.
MGM 8:14 PM,
Her testimony will be solid:
"I was drunk and drugged. I don't remember anything."
It's nice that poor kids (all colors) can enjoy the pleasant experience of Head Start to make their lives a bit richer, but extensive research shows that any academic benefit is gone by the third grade. It may be worth the money to get kids out of bad environments for a few hours a day or to get them routine health screenings. It does little or nothing for academic progress.
Retired Sociologist
9:59PM,
Head Start does help at first.
By grade 8 or 10 there is no difference between Head Start and non-Head Start kids.
My personal belief is that intervention must start earlier. Like at birth. Even then it may not help.
Who will pay for this delay? The families of the Duke 3!!! These innocents will not be released until the state of North Carolina has sucked up all the sibling's college money, too. The young men will be unemployable due to their notariety. The prosecutor is up on ethics charges and the Duke 3 is paying and North Carolina, including the defense attorneys, is sucking the families dry. Millions---North Carolina is taking in millions.
These boys are incredibly innocent. Please, let them go!
Todays information is making me THIRSTY!!!! K.C. help me understand what happened today.
Head start is nothing more than a babysitter for crack-head parents.
KC...I think that the mental/psychological state of the accuser would be the 2nd most interesting aspect of a book or movie about his whole incident.
The first would be the horror perpetrated upon the mothers and fathers of the boys and the boys themselves.
There are simply so many explanations for why her story has changed so many times. Coercion, complete mental instability, ignorance of what she'd said previously, arrogance due to her perceived position of power as a minority rape accuser. There are just so many ways to go. I think Halle Berry would do nicely.
I'm envisioning a scene where the investigator is talking to her, she's shaking and stumbling over her words as she stammers through the words which are almost being force-fed to her by the investigator, all the while images of her children, the Johns who sodomize her for $50 a piece and the men that ogle her at the strip club flash over the up close coverage shots. Suddenly she convinces herself that the rape actually occurred. The scenes of a John banging her in a motel, her driver banging her in the back seat of a car and her landlord banging her in front of her children cut to the faces of the men, which are suddenly replaced by the faces of Colin, Reade and David just as she decides to believe her own story. As she panics or is coerced through subsequent interviews, her mental resolve begins to breakdown as she realizes that the boys did nothing to her. She finally realizes that ss she was flashing back to all the ways that she'd allowed herself to be exploited, the boys were actually carrying her to Ms. Roberts's car. David Fincher could crush such a movie.
9:44
dead on. These boys have them by the balls and they don't want to squeeze them just right now. That will come with the civil suits. I still think they might demand a settlement, with a dismissal. That would be the cheapest route for the state. The problem is Cooper probably can not come up with the money for the settlement without a judgement. TOO bad.
RACK EM
Kemp
Typical NC politics
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/537790.html
MD ESQ would love to hear your opinion of today's activity!
some of the fantasies you guys are spinning on here are incredible!
first, how do you imagine that the defense is now playing hardball with the special prosecutors and are threatening them when the new prosecutors have the power to dismiss the case or bring it to trial? Hello? What you are syaing makes no sense. Also why would the defense agree to a nonsensical time like May? Also, why would Cheshire say something like there is a lot of evidence for the sp to review when all he has ever said is that there is no evidence to review? Also, i know Smith and Cheshire and they were not happy like they usually are; this meeting did not go entirely to plan.
Re: 9:44
When you wrote that the new proscecution has "one chance" to get this right, I thought that was very insightful.
I hang out in a doctors dining room for lunch everyday in my hospital. I can assure you that this case is being followed very closely and with considerable emotional involvement by the professioal classes (at least the ones I see).
Now that the NC bar seems to have made a good faith effort to inject some sanity into this and Nifong has been publically neutered
there is a clear sense of hopeful expectation that NC is not, afterall, a hopelessly backward, doomed cesspool of primitive natives ruled over by cruel thugs.
But they have one chance, imho also, to get this right. At the first peep of a suggestion that they will go forward with a real proscecution, some permanent changes are going to occur as to the general impression of how America thinks of N.C.
11:08 pm
Goodnight Liefong. You had your chance
America already thinks North Carolina justice is a joke. It does not look like NC citizens cares what others think of them. The only surprise is that the AG and NCbar entered into this at all. Fear of the Feds moving in is probably what did it. Does NC belong to the union? The constitution and Bill of Rights don't apply to them. The blacks of Durham have been pawns in this case. The white legal authory has failed both the blacks and justice.
The North Carolina Innocence Commission has existed since February 2004. Their mission statement; to "...develop potential procedures to decrease the possibility of conviction of the innocent in North Carolina..." Where are they? Why aren't they speaking up about this case like the group of 88 did? North Carolina Innocence Commission
Members listed on website:
The Honorable Bryan E. Beatty, Secretary of Crime Control and Public Safety
Robert Brown, Jr., Public Defender, Durham County
Professor James Coleman, Duke University Law School
The Honorable Roy Cooper, North Carolina Attorney General
Chief Michael R. Gauldin, Burlington Police Department
The Honorable Donald Harrison, Sheriff, Wake County
Malcolm R. Hunter Jr., Executive Director, N.C. Office of Indigent Defense Services
The Honorable Robert F. Johnson, District Attorney, Alamance County
The Honorable William Kenerly, District Attorney, Rowan County
The Honorable I. Beverly Lake, Jr., N.C. Supreme Court Chief Justice
Chris Mumma, Legal Counsel, N.C. Center on Actual Innocence
Associate Dean Theresa Newman, Duke University Law School
The Honorable Robert Orr, N.C. Supreme Court Justice
Robin Pendergraft, Director, N.C. State Bureau of Investigation
Donna Pygott, N.C. Victims' Assistance Network
Professor Richard Rosen, UNC School of Law
The Honorable Thomas W. Ross, Executive Director, Z. Smith Reynolds Foundation
Chief Darrel Stephens, Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department
The Honorable Donald Stephens, Senior Resident Superior Court Judge, Wake County
Dick Taylor, Executive Director, Academy of Trial Lawyers
Thomas Walker, N.C. Assistant Attorney General
Pete Weitzel, Executive Director, N.C. Center on Actual Innocence
The Honorable Colon C. Willoughby, Jr., District Attorney, Wake County
Nina Wright, Deputy Chief, Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department
Reubin Young, Deputy Legal Counsel, N.C. Governor's Office
NC's lack of a constitutional provision for a speedy trial does not negate the US constitutional provision that those charged with a crime are entitled to a speedy trial. It seems to me that any trial date, if there ever is one, will occur well after the one year anniversary of the defendants' indictments. Defense counsel made it clear from the outset that they wanted the case to move along quickly. That obviously has not happened. Today's postponement was not for the benefit of the defense. So, how is the scheduling of this case not a violation of the right to a speedy trial?
Observer
The speculation on this topic is very interesting, but likely way off base.
The meeting with the Judge was percipitated by an organized campaign to remove the Durham DA neccesitating new prosecutors being named. Defense counsel knew this would lead to some delay. They have stated so in the past. Thus a new scheduling order on existing motions had to happen.
There is nothing in any article that says the new prosecutors requested an extension of the schedule until May. That is right, I have found no statement from anyone including defense attorneys that the new prosecutors asked for an extension of three months.
No doubt the Judge asked the new prosecutors how much time was needed. They may have said thirty days or twenty days or fourty-five days. Whatever time they needed required everyone in the meeting to pull out their calanders - - because they all have other clients cases and commitments.
So let's say the State said, we can be done with our review in mid-March - - Cheshire, Smith Cooney et al would have to see if they could do a hearing in early April. The Judge too would have to look at his schedule.
What likely happened was May 7th was the first date all the lawyers in the room could agree to as being open. Nothing more nefarious than that.
As to a speedy trial, the defense would file a motion on that if they thought that was beneficial. They won't. They don't want to go to trial, they want it dismissed. If you think legal costs are high now, just add a trial to the mix - - lots and lots of money. It is much cheaper if the case is dismissed.
And as to delay and costs - - if all that is going on now is prosecutor review, there is probably very little the defense team needs to be billing for.
While I know we all believe that there is no claim, there are likely many things that the new prosecutors need to do. For example, there are allegations that the Durham DA and investigators got the accuser to change her story to meet the holes in the case exposed by the defense team. Assume that to be true, what is the real story?
As to politics driving what the new prosecutors are going to do, there does not appear to be a political victory regardless of what they do. Besides, Coman and Winstead aren't running for anything. The AG is running for re-election in 2008 and will not face any real opposition.
Finally, remember it is to the defense's benefit and the families that the case is dismissed. Defense lawyers will want time to make that case to the new prosecutors. Again that means scheduling issues since everyone has more work to do on other cases.
re: Hey 7:00 post.
I'd LOVE to see the boys demand, as part of a settlement with Duke, that the Lacrosse Field be renamed "Pressler Field."
It would demonstrate their loyalty to the wronged coach, perpetually rub the Groupd of 88's noses in "it", and pee all over Brodhead.
I love the idea if I do say so myself!!!
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