Saturday, December 02, 2006

Census Coincidences

Until relatively recently, it was possible to view the accuser as a secondary victim of Mike Nifong—someone who, as she had done in the past, filed a transparently incredible claim of rape without any expectation of seeing it through, only to see the “minister of justice” exploit the case for his own political purposes.

On the early morning of the 14th, with the accuser about to be involuntarily committed, a Durham Access Center nurse asked her if she had been raped. (It’s my understanding that prompting a patient in this fashion is not standard procedure in such circumstances—yet another example of the peculiar conduct associated with this case.) The accuser responded yes, fully realizing that this answer meant that she wouldn’t be committed.

Since the accuser was developing the tale on the fly, she couldn’t come close to creating a consistent story. But she would have every reason to assume, as in Creedmoor a decade before, that the matter would not be pursued in any significant degree. How could she (or anyone else) have realized that the “minister of justice,” desperately needing black votes and with nearly $30,000 of his own money riding on the outcome of the case, would adopt the pretense of acting upon one or more of her myriad, mutually contradictory, stories?

In some respects, this view of events always required suspending belief, since the accuser, apparently without anyone forcing her to do so, publicly offered her tale to the N&O for its March 25 article. In light of reports over the past month, it’s no longer possible to see the accuser, in any way, as an innocent “victim” of Nifong’s procedural fraud.

Let’s begin with what is known:

  • At the time she was telling UNC doctors she was experiencing crippling pain, she was videotaped at a strip club performing a pole dance in a most limber fashion. As Kathleen Eckelt has pointed out, this behavior is consistent with prescription drug fraud.
  • Four days after she made her allegation, the accuser reportedly told the security manager of the strip club, “I’m going to get paid by the white boys.” In recent days, some Nifong enablers who post on case-related forums have dismissed the comment’s significance. They have contended that the accuser was referring to her claim of being robbed, not implying that she planned to use the claim as part of a civil suit. The enablers’ theory seems extraordinarily far-fetched, in part because the accuser never claimed that “the white boys” robbed her. About the only aspect of her tale to remain consistent was a charge that Kim Roberts, the second dancer, took her money, which varied between $400 and $2000, depending on the version of events.
  • The accuser’s mother met with civil litigator Willie Gary and told Essence that she was “very much interested” in “getting Gary involved.”
  • Mark Simeon, the lawyer for Kim Roberts and an unsuccessful candidate for district attorney in 2002, expressed his interest in filing a civil suit.
  • The day after Nifong began his procedurally improper publicity barrage against the lacrosse team, Simeon endorsed Nifong’s primary campaign, stating that while he always had known Nifong was a “good prosecutor,” he had only recently learned Nifong was a “good man.” Obviously, any adverse publicity Nifong could generate in the lacrosse players would help in any civil suit.
  • For reasons that remain unexplained, police ignored the results of two early lineups in which the accuser couldn’t identify any of her alleged assailants, and then waited 19 days until after first interviewing her to show her the final lineup.
  • In the March 16 lineup, the accuser remarked, “This is harder than I thought,” according to the notes of Inv. Michele Soucie.
  • On March 21, Inv. Benjamin Himan recorded, “I asked her questions trying to follow up on a better description of the suspects. She was unable to remember anything further about the suspects.”
  • In the April 4 lineup, the accuser’s memory dramatically improved, with her sudden ability to recognize many members of the team and to identify her alleged assailants. Yet, as Iowa State professor Gary Wells, a national expert on photo lineup identifications, commented, “Memory doesn’t get better with time. That’s one of the things we know. How does she get more positive with time?”


Changing any one of the nine items above—i.e., had the police done their job and taken the accuser’s statement, including a lineup session, immediately; or had the accuser and her family not expressed an interest in getting money out of the incident; or had a dubious partnership between Nifong and Simeon coalesced around Nifong’s decision to abandon legal ethics in handling the lacrosse case; or had police either accepted the results of the early lineups or recognized what Wells termed the “red flag[s]” associated with the April 4 lineup—would make it irresponsible even to speculate about the relationship between a possible civil suit and the identifications the accuser made.

But, of course, all of the above factors did occur.

Given the accuser’s stated desire to “get paid by the white boys,” it’s worth taking a look at the “white boys” that she ultimately picked. In a normal case, the police would have taken a statement from her immediately after the incident, and also asked her to identify the alleged assailants. In this case, however, the police waited three weeks to take the accuser’s official statement, and gave her 19 days to research the backgrounds of the people she would ultimately choose.

This inexplicable delay gave an accuser out for money the opportunity to research her prey. But her stated desire to “get paid by the white boys” would be frustrated if she happened to select three players from financially modest families.

It seems difficult to believe that the accuser could have conducted a detailed background check on the players. But she quite easily could have located the players’ hometowns (from the Duke lacrosse webpage), and from there obtained from the Census Bureau’s website the median income of the cities in which they lived. Of course, wealthy people live in poor towns, and vice versa. But this approach would have given a figure who wanted to “get paid by the white boys” a better chance of selecting someone who fulfilled her needs, especially since she had many days before the photo ID session to study the photographs.

Below is the relevant data*:

Accused Players

Essex Fells, NJ


Bethesda, MD


Garden City, NY


Other Players

Great Falls, VA


Potomac, MD


Darnestown, MD


Mendham, NJ


Chevy Chase, MD


Summit, NJ


Swarthmore, PA


Manhasset, NY


Setauket, NY


Sea Cliff, NY


Syosset, NY


Glenview, IL


Massapequa, NY


Ridgewood, NJ


East Northport, NY


Baldwin, NY


East Rockaway, NY


Orchard Park, NY


Farmingdale, NY


Norwalk, CT


Gaithersburg, MD


Cazenovia, NY


Freeport, NY


Durham, NC


Webster, NY


Dover, DE


Charlottesville, VA


Dallas, TX


Richmond, VA


Philadelphia, PA


Baltimore, MD


The accuser thus selected the player (Reade Seligmann) whose hometown reported the highest median income of any player on the team. Her choice of Dave Evans (or at least his mustachioed alter ego) gave her someone whose hometown was in the top five. Collin Finnerty’s hometown ranked as the eighth wealthiest on the team, but other reasons existed for selecting him: reports of his D.C. arrest had appeared in the media around 10 days before the April 4 lineup.

The income table reveals one other interesting item: the only player that the accuser twice said she was absolutely certain to have seen at the party (Brad Ross, who wasn’t even in Durham on the night in question) comes from the fourth wealthiest town on the team (Darnestown).

The accuser, meanwhile, claimed to recognize a much smaller percentage of the lacrosse players who were from towns and cities with lower median incomes. Of the nine players who came from the cities and towns with the lowest median incomes, the accuser recognized only three. And, of course, she claimed that none were her assailants.


I concede that this post, unlike others on this blog, is speculative. It’s entirely possible that the accuser randomly picked the three she wound up choosing under the watchful, if procedurally improper, eye of Sgt. Mark Gottlieb.

But Wells’ comment is worth pondering. “Memory doesn’t get better with time. That’s one of the things we know. How”—and why—“does she get more positive with time?”

*--The hometowns of two players (New Vernon, NJ, and Cos Cob, CT) did not come up in the Census Bureau website.


Anonymous said...

Is there a way for the defense to prove that the players were selected because of their families' financial worth? Can the defense get access to her computer?

TombZ said...


In the interest of completing the table, New Vernon is a village within Harding Township, NJ and Cos Cob, is located within the town of Greenwich, CT.

Both towns will likely place at the upper end of the median income scale.

KC Johnson said...


But it would be very unlikely that the accuser, or anyone just using the census data, would have known this info. I tried to frame the post as a hypothetical, of what could be reasonably expected by someone doing rudimentary searches.

don t. said...

I presume this info would be useful to the accuser only if she were filing a civil law suit. I just posed this question on liestoppers. What is to preclude the 3 accused, the entire lacrosse team and the coach from filing lawsuits on the da, Duke, Brodhead, the state and anybody else who perpetrated or acquiesed to this farce.

Also, since Coach K is an advisor of some kind to the President on sports, did he have a role in any of this?

Anonymous said...

I think you are giving the stripper way too much credit for using a brain she doesn't have. I think it is more likely that she has just been given a "free pass" by the prosecutor to run the show as she runs her strip a stupor! I imagine she just got lucky with who she picked in terms of their financial status, I'm sure she figured they all had $$ because they were "white boys"
Perhaps Nifong was afraid that Durham would become another "Rodney King LA" and knowing that if he let this slide, Durham would be pounced upon by the Jesse Jackson Gang and so "free pass" for any black stripper that wants to accuse "white boys" of rape

4virginia said...

KC excuse me but I am unsure what you mean by "this view of events always required suspending belief" do you mean to say sustaining belief or suspending disbelief? Maybe I'm not quite sure which view is this view. Do you mean the AV's view or your conjecture about her view? or the DA's view. Thanks for any clarification.

kilgo said...


Many in Durham have speculated
the hoax was an extortion attempt
or hooker rip-off, from the

If there are 20 or so 'stripper parties' a year over near campus,
it would have been very easy to
set-up any group.

Anonymous said...

Who are the attorneys advising the accuser? Do any of them have a history of civil lawsuits?

Anonymous said...

Isn't the fact (if it is a fact) that the stripper "identified" Evans "but only if he had a mustache" difficult to reconcile with this theory?

Anonymous said...

CosCob, Connecticut... would be an area of Greenwich CT -- only the wealthiest town in the state and one of the wealthiest towns in the country.

Anonymous said...

Very interesting theory--but I'm with the poster who questioned whether the accuser would have had the brains to pull this off. (and I do think they should be able to search her computer and find her old searches--did the police ever confiscate her computer?) Also it doesn't coincide with the earlier theory that she was in effect prodded by the investigator who handled the line-up to make IDs (remember--she didn't remember the first couple of photos, then the DA told her to "take the full minute to look at the photo before responding" and all of a sudden she identifies her alleged assailants...)

On another note--I also questioned the fact that she was asked "have you been raped" as I thought it was a very leading question. I specifically questioned it a few months ago on either this site or fODU, and someone quickly responded that it WAS standard procedure when a woman comes into a clinic or ER and something seems wrong....I seem to remember that whoever answered my question answered as an authority--they claimed some knowledge. You may want to ask your SANE expert--I think it is very significant.

Anonymous said...

one other thing to add to my 7:43 post. Her statement "this is harder than I thought" could be interpreted in different ways. I'm guessing the prosecutor will say that it was a sign of a sincere attempt to ID actual rapists--that if she were either picking at random or picking some photos she had researched, she would not have made that statement...If one is working a scam, she would give the appearance of confidence, of certainty. Acknowledging the difficulty is a human emotion that the prosecution will claim is consistent with honorable intentions and the difficulty of dealing with a traumatic event.

Anonymous said...

I am not trying to be mean, but I don't think the false accuser has enough brain power to put this together. What brain power she has is frequently clouded from drugs and/or alcohol.
This important part of this post is that we can't view the false accuser as Nifong's victum anymore. I used to consider her a victim and posted several times that she needed a good attorney. No more. Since I watched her dancing while claiming she was in pain, I knew that she is personally responsible for the destruction and pain her false charges caused. I used to have sympathy for her. No more. I now say throw the book at her. Put her on a witness stand for three days and let counsel barage her with question after question after question. Let Nifong squirm as he watches her shift her weak story, explode under pressure, and lash out at him and others.
I hope the families are adamant that she will not get one cent from the pain she has caused. I hope the families are planning law suits of their own.

The Dude said...

I think this post will go a long way in "vetting" the AV's thought process. Despite her claims of being a full time student/honor roll/Dean's list, etc. i don't see any evidence that she attended school. i'm sure the Defense Team(s) are exploring this to the best of her ability. Was she attending regularly before the allegation and how did it change after? Privacy laws will hinder but in the long run, all will know. ("Subpoenas are wonderful things"-Wilford Brimley in Absence of Malice)!

The AV is much more street smart than ALL give her credit for. She has managed to perpetuate this hoax for 9 months without giving a statement of ANY kind. Did the SANE RN suggest rape? You bet your ass. How else do you get an allegation and keep these people employed. The hospital did a drug test for date rape drugs. Then denied any tests were given. Now the threads yesterday say drugs were "cleared" in the Toxicolgy tests. What the hell is going on in Durham?

Between KC and LieStoppers there are many evidentary documents to review. Jason Bissey is very clear
on what he saw and pretty accurate on a timeline. Kim R. on the other hand has some problems. The AV accussed her of taking the money, not the players. Kim R. was the person who called police and said they were walking by the house. This is a lie that can not be disputed. Kim r. is the person who called/contacted the Security guard and claimed an unknown person(AV) was in her car and refused to leave. That prompted the call to Durham Police who claim the AV was faking and was conscious. The AV accussed Kim of taking her money. Kim claimed she didn't know the AV.

Whatever transpired took place in the vehicle from the point they exited the party house and continued after the AV was removed at the shopping center. Sounds entirely like Kim R. had a change of heart on the plans to rob the Duke boys and the AV wanted more money. How can Kim now state the AV made statements about money a few days later? Obviously she knew the plan was falling apart and was trying to find cover. Durham police provided same by not interviewing the AV OR Kim R. This is the crux of the entire hoax. Where the hell were the Police and/or Nifong? Due diligence vs. NO DILIGENCE!

Nifong presented this to the Grand Jury. I have been told(on this site) that N. Carolina has no transcipt of these proceedings. This is the travesty of justice. What was presented? There was 1. NO statement by the AV 2. No statement by the witness(Robert's
3. No medical evidence 4. No evidence that ANY crime had been committed 5. 6. etc!!!!!!!

I don't think the AV picked anybody from her computer. I think Nifong and gang picked the people for her then suggested same at the lineup. Why else would they fight for the AV without a scintilla of evidence except to CYA. The motions to dismiss the case on the basis of tainted lineups(photos) in extremely valid. What everyone is missing is that "If no crime occurred, what was the lineup for?.

AMac said...

Somewhat off topic--

I recommend that any reader unfamiliar with D.A. Nifong's version of the events of March 13th take the time to read the Aug. 6 N&O story by Joseph Neff that KC linked in the body of this post. The details of the concoction of the rape story are shocking. The N&O sidebar on witness IDs, also linked and discussed here by KC, is also stunning.

The MinuteMan said...

Very interesting theory, but...

Might one argue that the lacrosse players with money would be more likely to be visibly leading the party? One might think they would be more likely to have contributed to the original cash pot, been more likely to have been offering generous tips to the dancers for extra services, etc.

That is not meant to downplay my vast respect for this site and my vast (Not Respect) for Nifong and the accuser.

Tom Maguire

bill anderson said...

There are some very important points to remember here. First, by April, Nifong was committed to the case, and when I mean committed, I mean that he was determined to get indictments in any way possible. The electorate of Durham was demanding prosecutions, and people, including Nifong, already were declaring that the negative DNA results were irrelevant.

Second, we have to understand that Nifong was doing this on the fly. In normal situations, there first is an investigation, and THEN come the statements from police and the prosecutor. In this case, we had the statements first, and once those statements were made, the police and prosecution then sought "evidence" to back up what had been said in public.

One has to understand just how explosive this last point really is. Nifong and his allies laid out the case first, and then looked for the evidence to fit the theory, but the more they looked, the more obvious it became that the facts did not square with what had been publicly declared. Thus, they embarked on a crusade to make the fact "fit."

This reminds me of a Midas Muffler advertisement from about 20 years ago in which a mechanic shows a customer a "muffler" which looks to be an unwieldy contraption. The incredulous customer asks, "Will it fit?" The mechanic replies, "I'll MAKE it fit."

That is what we have here. Nifong basically has done whatever is necessary to make the "evidence" fit his theory. Think of what has gone on:

1. He ignored exculpatory evidence, and even had Reade Seligmann's cab driver arrested;
2. He and Gottlieb conspired not only to write up an obviously bogus 33-page (single spaced) police report months after the facts, but also illegally leaked it to the NY Times, which slavishly repeated it like a mantra;
3. He changed his "30-minute" rape to a "5-10 minutes" rape in order to be able to justify his indictment of Seligmann;
4. He rigged the ID process to ensure that the accuser would pick SOMEONE so he could go to a grand jury.

This is only a small portion of the ways that Nifong has been the "I'll-make-the-muffler-fit-prosecutor," but it gives you a picture of how he has operated.

Furthermore, I would look for future (and maybe even present) harassment and threats against the people from the Platinum Club who have spoken to the press. Nifong knows he is untouchable and has become such a megalomaniac that he is going to use the apparatus of the "law" to go after anyone who might threaten his case.

This falls into the category of criminal fraud, but, as I noted before, Nifong has what I see as complete immunity. And, no, I don't think the NC Bar will do a thing except maybe praise his efforts in "stopping violence against women." Don't forget, the NC Bar is full of politically-correct lawyers who, like Nifong, don't give a damn about anything but pushing their own political agendas.

Anonymous said...

For the benefit of those who haven't followed the Hoax from the beginning, I would point out that while the accuser may or may not have had her act together enough to select targets, someone around her could well have been shrewd enough to make an assessment of this nature, on the fly after the party, or waiting to capitalize should the opportunity present itself. Remember, the intial charges were probably made with the assumption of eventual guilty pleas to reduced charges, which would have opened players up to civil litigation. Through the grace of God, none of the boys had consensual sexual interaction of any kind whatsoever with the prostitute/stripper which should have blown the scenario up. The crew was too stupid, impulsive and ill disciplined to regroup and try a sting on another bunch of Dukies, or for that matter Carolina wet behind the ears college boys. The wild cards, Mike "Somebody Put Me in a Straightjacket!" Nifong, and the corrupt Durham P.D., and morally bankrupt elements of Duke University, have kept the Hoax alive in a way the motley collection of busted out lumpen criminals associated with the strippers could never have bargained for. . . sic semper tyrannis

GPrestonian said...

8:40 AMac:

Thanks for highlighting that N&O article, as well as the sidebar on the inconsistencies in the identifications. Shocking & stunning indeed...

I couldn't help notice the 2 errata at the beginning of the N&O article - 1 a misspelling, no big deal, but the other is a timeline error that the N&O not only pointed out, but explained its impact on the original article.

Contrast that w/ the H-S and the Prof Crowley opinion piece & subsequent retraction. (Just checked - the original Crowley column is still up, w/o any note of the author's retraction.)

Anonymous said...

The 9:30 poster makes an excellent point. Someone around her could have been shrewd enough to select the real victims - the three players. Who would that someone be? Who are her attorneys and advisers? Does anyone know? Is there a trial lawyer who has experience in filing big civil suits? Follow the money. Always follow the money.

Anonymous said...

The 9:30 poster makes an excellent point. Someone around her could have been shrewd enough to select the real victims - the three players. Who would that someone be? Who are her attorneys and advisers? Does anyone know? Is there a trial lawyer who has experience in filing big civil suits? Follow the money. Always follow the money.

Victim In Massachusetts said...

KC, I believe that Nifong and the DPD did background checks on the lax players, and then handed it to the accuser.

Remember she was only 70% sure of even seeing Reade Seligmann at the party, and when she ID'd him she was 100% sure he attacked her.

So I think she was shown photos of David, Collin and Reade in advance and told "just pick these three", they have the money for a civil suit.

Please remember these are just my thoughts as I have come to see this Hoax over the past several months.

Anonymous said...

Although I am skeptical that the accuser planned the hoax/con, certainly there is more evidence to support that theory than exists to support the rape charges. Nothing precludes a scenario where the political payoff motivates the DA and financial payoff motivates the accuser. Furthermore, never underrestimate the cunning of a drug abuser.

I think comments that impugn the intelligence and attactiveness of the accuser completely miss the mark. We know very little, really nothing, about her intelligence and very little (a few blury pictures that never show her face) about her attractiveness. Kim R. struck me as intelligent, attractive, and well spoken on 60 Minutes. It just happens she also embezzled $25,000, which makes her a crook. No comment on the stripping, but certainly it does not enhance perceptions of her character. I am happy to hear she is trying to straighten out her life and make restitution. I wish the same for the accuser. While we wait for that to happen, could SOMEONE who has some authority please start working hard to deliver the defendants especially and the rest of us from this Dickensian/Kafkaesque/Shakespearianhell?! So far, the bloggers, defense lawyers, a handful of journalists, writers, educators, and campaigners have shouldered the immense burden. North Carolina needs more help, a lot more help to set things on a reasonable course.


Anonymous said...

I find it quite extraordinary that the accuser picked the only player with a serious (assault) charge---out of 46 possibilities.
And she waited a LONG time (between 7 and 40?)to pick him and to turn on the tears!
I wonder if the defense team has any records of telephone calls between the Durham PD and DC authorities before the ID session?

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know if a big-reputation trial lawyer is involved in the accuser's case?

Anonymous said...

A friend of mine recently got Nifonged in Orange County NC by the domestic violence industry. I discovered some good websites E.G. the Equal Justice Foundation and the Center for Childrens Justice who may be something frustrated justice seekers might find worth supporting

Anonymous said...

KC, good analysis but isn't the real scenario thus:

1. The prostitute was drunk and disorderly when confronted by the police

2. Any conviction would have forced her to give up benefits (she was on welfare, right?)

3. Not totally stupid, the P realized that fabricating the story would exonerate her from (1)

4. The civil suit, imo, is just gravy--and quite post facto

The above is the perfect defense scenario, and the most credible

Anonymous said...

Chicago writes:


It is entirely possible that while she is too dumb to look at a census income site, she may have had people advising her and her family who did. I would not put it past Mark Simeon to do the research for her and advise her accordingly.

Anonymous said...

Chicago also writes-If KC could not find Cos Cob and the other place on his first attempt, what is to say that who ever did the research for the false accuser also did not uncover those areas. I mean, there are only a handful of sites in which such information can be found.

Like KC, I realize this scenario is hypothetical. However, with all the blatant FACTS we have seen, this certainly helps things get pieced together and is entirely possible.

Anonymous said...


My wife and I are parents of a Duke lacrosse player. In late March or early April of this year, my wife was in our front yard planting her Spring flower beds. She schedules this work at the same time every year, so is confident in her recollection of the period involved.

My wife reported to me at that time that a car had pulled up in front of our house, and that an ominous looking man had stared at her and our house for several minutes before departing. He did not get out of his car, nor did he appear to have any reason for having stopped in front of our house.

My wife shared with me at that time that she had had the distinct impression that our house was being "cased". We took extra precautions against a risk of burglary, but nothing came of it. This incident was very much out of the ordinary, however, and it did occur to us at that time that it could have been related to the Duke lacrosse case.

If this sort of information is helpful, please let me know and I will contact you with more details. It may be that there are other Duke lacrosse families with similar stories, but we have not heard of such to date. It was very much a matter of chance that my wife happened to be in our front yard when this incident occured.

Again, thank you for all you do.

bill anderson said...

I believe it is hard to speculate on how she picked the three she did. I cannot believe, however, that Nifong and the police did not help in some way. After all, Nifong NEEDED these indictments for his re-election efforts.

Remember, he had declared unequivocally that three lacrosse players had raped the accuser, and that he was going to find who did it. He also knew that it was unimportant to worry about alibis and the like; he simply would pretend they did not exist.

Thus, he was able to tell Kirk Osborne that if Kirk thought Seligmann was not guilty, then he and Nifong "have nothing to talk about." When Osborne made Seligmann's alibi public, Nifong promptly arrested the cab driver and then changed the story and timeline of the supposed rape.

I say all this to point out that evidence never has been an issue in this case. Nifong and the police DO NOT NEED evidence in order to get a conviction in Durham. They have an accuser and three white lacrosse players, and that is ALL that they need.

We can speculate all we wish about the accuser and her motives, but as K.C. pointed out, she was trying to keep from getting involuntarily committed. All it took was a rape accusation. Nifong was able to take it from there.

The reason I emphasize that this case cannot go to trial is because a Durham jury would be like Nifong: the members would not need to be presented with any evidence, just an accusation. From that point, they will easily reach a verdict of guilty, and if you think that jurors will be circumspect, think again.

For those of you who are shocked at this cavalier approach to justice, we need to understand that this is MAINSTREAM U.S. justice. This kind of stuff has been going on for years in the federal courts, and I have been writing on that situation for a long time.

Furthermore, you already have the Little Rascals case in North Carolina, where the prosecution did not present any credible evidence, save children who had been browbeaten for many months before they "disclosed" sexual abuse. In that case, we saw what we are seeing here: conflicting information, conflicting stories, and conflicting information that is mutually exclusive is trotted out as "proof" of a crime.

The lacrosse case is not an outlier; the lies are transparent, but I would contend that on any day in a U.S. court, you will see hundreds of these fake cases. We as voters have given prosecutors a green light to lie, break the law, cut corners, suborn perjury, and generally run amok. Thus, we see the results of our own lack of diligence.

Anonymous said...

disagree with u, bill:

it is not important to speculate about how precious picked the 3: nifong gave her carte blanche

the above poster who posited the drunkenness scenario is on the right track: stupid people like precious don't think about consequences, so an opportunity to beat a drunk and disorderly charge was a godsend: this is typical thug behavior, and she is indeed a thug

does anyone know if she was administered a polygraph, or her blood alcohol was measured?

Svolich said...

We know that the photo lineup did not conform to normal practice. At the least, it contained no "filler pictures" of people who could not have been involved.

Do we know all the details of the lineup? For example - did the photos have the names of the players attached to them, as they would in a yearbook?

bill anderson said...

The Duke lacrosse family which reports a possible "casing" of the house does not surprise me at all. Does anything really think that Nifong and the Durham police have cared a whit about the law or trying to get at the truth?

Nifong is NOT an honest broker, and neither are the police in Durham. They are dishonest to the core, but they know that in this particular case, they can act with carte blanche because they have absolute immunity.

No one on the Durham police force is going to act outside the interest of the "blue wall of silence." (There was no "blue wall" at Duke; the silence is from the police, prosecutors, and people like Irving Joyner, who is nothing more than a front man for a dishonest prosecutor.)

Furthermore, the only people who can act against Nifong are the Democrats in the attorney general's office and in the office of the governor. Does anyone really think that the Democrats are going to offend the blacks and white liberals in North Carolina? They really do not care about wrongful convictions in that state, and the record absolutely proves it.

For example, even when Darryl Hunt was shown to be not guilty, the state fought his being released. The same goes for Alan Gell and the Little Rascals victims. The people who are in authority in North Carolina simply DO NOT CARE, period. All they care about is having political power, and if they have to imprison half the state to do so, that is what they will do.

Therefore, all I can say is that once people like Nifong and the Durham police realize they are above the law, look for them to do ANYTHING. They don't care because they will face no consequences.

The only way to fight these criminals is to expose them. What we are doing in these blogs is to expose every lie and demonstrate what kind of lawbreakers they are. These guys are cockroaches, and one must shine the light on them.

Yes, they will try to continue the prosecution, but we can keep the pressure on them. I can only hope that we can shame someone, SOMEONE in that state who has some authority to do what is right.

Anonymous said...

the photo lineup was unconstitutional (no filler photos, thus the carte blanche characterization), and will prove to be nifong's worst nightmare: possible disbarment, civil litigation, etc

he's gonna get bitch-slapped, big time!

Anonymous said...

Many of us in these past 8 plus months have been tripped up and suffered in the credibility department by trying to over speculate the whys and wherefores of this case. In doing so we have given our position opponents ammunition to sway others against us, not with the evidence of the case but with our faulty non-evidential theories and protestations. Be it race baiters, the agenda freaks, the conspiracy theorists or just the ignorant.

If we as "logical" human beings, attempting to find some semblance of truth in this matter, simply look at the facts of the case, it is obvious to me we already have everything we need. Don't care about the motives of Nifong, NBBP, G88, Broadhead, Steel, "black leaders", "rich daddies", Duke or bigots on all sides, lets just look at what has been released to us as evidence.

I'll take two very small pieces, both have been entered into court documents either via the attorney's mouth or as attachments to motions.

1. Mr. Nifong has taken the statement given by the accuser of a 30 minutes rape and out of whole cloth, condensed it down to "5-10" minutes telling Reade's attorney "that all he has to down is account for 90 minutes of his life."

2. Reade's lawyers have produced his cell phone records, taxi cab driver affidavit, ATM photos and swipe card print outs which begin at 12:05 and end at 12:46.

The challenge is, if anyone, without pulling some illogical theory out of their behind, cannot find even a 2 minute window in this evidence for Reade to have committed a rape, then you have no case. It's as simple at that, the rest is just a titillating mental exercise and fodder with which to be tripped up by your opponents.


somebody, find me a 2 minute window!!!!


Anonymous said...

sorry darby, you're wrong:

remember, the jury pool will probably include quite a few cognitively inferior people easily swayed by BS

u need facts, true, but u also need to construct a scenario that legitimizes the facts--eg, precious's desire not to go to jail for drunkenness

there r 2 other Ds: why focus solely on seligmann, and bear in mind also that N will be able to explain the timeline problem by geiing an expert to discuss the "trauma" of being gang raped by white racists--if this goes to trial, it'll be uglier than OJ

Anonymous said...

In answer to 11:48 AM....Early on in this case, almost from the start of it, actually, it was made known that the accuser had contacted shakedown attorney Willie Gary for "assistance". He supposedly said that he would assist her in whatever way she needed.

It's important to note that Gary became a very wealthy attorney by suing.....and suing.....and suing.....cases like this one where there has supposedly been great "damage" done to black people. So he has this game down to a science by now. He is apparently the son of sharecroppers who was given a free education at one of the area black colleges--(maybe Shaw; however, I don't really recall)--and he's made a big production of donating to black colleges through the years.

He's very ostentatious and perhaps kind of sleazy.

Consequently, this lacrosse shakedown is right up his alley. Who's to say that he hasn't been quietly "assisting" Precious? Who's to say that he hasn't been conferring with Nifong?

As you might remember, Jesse "Hymie Town" Jackson---that Jew-bashing remark sure didn't ruin HIS career---made it known that he would give Precious a free scholarship so that she could continue her "studies" without having to matter how this lacrosse case turned out. Meaning even if she turns out to be a fraud and a felon and a liar and a racist....all rolled into one. Jackson believes in a "rainbow coalition", don't you know.

No one has mentioned anything about his offer since. Perhaps it has been discovered that Precious really didn't have a university career.

Obviously, anything could have taken place in Durham for all of this to have snowballed into such a hoax.

I wouldn't put anything past anyone on the prosecution's side. It's beyond mention what might have really taken place.

I still say---bring in the FEDS!

Debrah Correll

bill anderson said...

Also, if this goes to trial, remember that "Precious" will have been well-coached by Nifong's people, and I can guarantee she will put on a show of weeping and wailing. Any attempt to cross examine her will be interpreted as an attack on all black women.

The problem is that while the defense will demonstrate the entire thing is a lie, the jury will have the "These people raped and beat me" crying testimony that is going to sway at least some jurors.

I'm not trying to be gloom and doom; I'm just thinking like the defense attorneys. That is why they want this thing to be stopped on the ID process, since they will be on the absolute defensive if it goes to a courtroom trial.

kilgo said...

"the motley collection of busted out
lumpen criminals associated with the strippers"

Google various combinations of -

"drewery murchison taylor johnson duke lacrosse"

Pure speculation and many facts.

For civil suit lawyers try-

"couch gary mcsurely"

Anonymous said...

another problem for the 3:

why haven't they published results of poly if they're so innocent?

it's a legitimate question

Anonymous said...

Good question

I think their lawyers all know that they probably made derogatory remarks to AV and don't want that info divulged

Prosecution will make the argument that "racism equals rape"

stupid jurors will agree with such "logic"

january said...

to 1:51 poster: what poly?

Anonymous said...

To 1:51:

The 3 did offer to take polygraphs. It was the police who refused.

Anonymous said...

The N&O recently added another spice to the menu of media race-baiting.....probably designed to be another entrée into the realm of "woe is me".

They printed a special exposé "The Ghosts of 1898" telling of white-on-black attacks in the town of hundred and eight years ago !!!!

Why did they decide to make a big production about this now? Is there something magical about the number (108)? No one is alive who was there and I'm sure that their descendants will not pay "reparations" as is being suggested by black leaders.

Of course....."We all have to remember the injustices so they will never happen again"......blah.....blah.....blah.......but some need to study World History so they can break out of their insular and self-indulgent shell. Millions of people throughout history have been enslaved or have been otherwise damaged by evil people. Most, like the Jewish people of the world, have not merely survived, but thrived.

If only that gene could be implanted inside the black community.

I'd say the powers-that-be at the N&O want this historical riot highlighted just as three white men are fighting for their futures over in Durham.

Never underestimate the bitterness and the need to continually dance on the graves of their ancestors from those in the black community who live and breathe "victimhood".......while being admitted to elite universities with SAT scores that might warrant admission into a community college in the real world.

I don't believe that the decision at this time to publish a special section on the Wilmington race riot of long ago was a coincidence.

Debrah Correll

The Dude said...

There has been a lot of discussion on the AV and who possibly helped her. How about Kim roberts? She made the 911 call and then drove away with the AV in her vehicle. Then she contacted security at a nearby mall and claimed she had no idea who the person in her vehicle was but said the female refused to get out. This does not seem like an honest person. She seems like part of the scam and then tried to
deny knowing the AV yet she danced with her. Much later she started giving interviews like 60 minutes and the claim that a few days after the party the AV said "she wanted to make the white boys pay" This does not add up. she was part of the original scam and realized she better give some version to help HERSELF. Why a formal statement was not taken from her is beyond belief. She wasn't "too traumatized" as the AV/Nifong claimed. Did she refuse to give a statement or did Durham's finest purposefully neglect her involvement?
Also, the AV gave a different agency for her employer(stripper service). Roberts could have cleared this up right away. I think the Prosecurial Misconduct is the most egregious from the withholding evidence standpoint.
Does anyone have a link to Gottlieb's 30plus page statement?

Juries are famous for all types of stupid decisions. What is the Judge in this case's excuse. He should dismiss all charges and personally notify the bar association and AG of nifong's conduct. I think that is what this Judge is afraid of but knows it is inevitable.

KC Johnson said...

To the 12.23 parent:

Yes, this is very interesting information. Please contact me with the details.

jim clyne said...

no, it's not interesting

do not contact jim clyne

The Dude said...

KC, I read somewhere that Mark Gottlieb gave a 30 plus page statement/report from memory. Do you or any of your readers have a link to that report?

Anonymous said...


Anonymous said...

Does anyone know if the AV is truly homely and fat? It's sounds counterintuitive, given her stripping career. Any photos of her on the 'Net?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 12:37 am---

We are able to see enough from those photos. Who cares what her face looks like. Enough can be seen of the rest which shows someone who definitely is no Tyra Banks. Whoopie Goldberg, maybe.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for putting this info out there. This is just the sort of thing that I was thinking about as this all unfolded and the players like Collin's picture ended up in the paper. I was thinking--she better have already identified the suspects because now she's going to have an easy time of it. You are documenting so much here. I remember hearing that Victoria Peterson went on a radio program in Durham talking about suing Dave's parents as the co-signers on the lease. I look forward to you putting all of this into a book because it seems more like an over the top novel than real life. It is so sad and disappointing...