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Comments and analysis about the Duke/Nifong case (2006-2014).
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Blog Archive
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2007
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June
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- The Bitter-Enders
- Brodhead Wins a Sheldon
- Cline on Quadruple Homicide Case
- The Group in Action
- 9-22 Transcript
- The Meehan Deposition
- Smith Sets Date
- Nifong Hearing
- Nifong Deposition: Personal Issues
- Nifong Hearing Tomorrow
- Freedman: Communication Matters
- Assorted Deposition Items
- Responding to Syl Jones (and Nifong)
- Linwood Bails on Nifong
- Nifong Deposition, Part II
- Nifong Rationalizes His Statements
- More from Wonderland
- Nifong Deposition, Part I
- Linwood Is Out
- Ethical Dimension
- More Foolishness
- Nifong Hearing
- Weekly Roundup
- "Mr. Obfuscation" in Action
- The Herald-Sun: Wrong Again
- "Mr. Obfuscation"
- The Gottlieb Deposition
- Nifong as "Unique Person"
- The Wacky World of Dr. Meehan
- WRAL Headline Saturday
- Still Foolish
- Nifong: An "Old-Fashioned" Guy
- The Sanctions Motion
- Eviscerated
- The Worst of Witt: "Egregious" Mistakes
- The Worst of Witt: The DNA Evidence
- The Worst of Witt: The Neophyte Defense
- Hardin's Choices
- Nifong: What?! Non-Laxers Were There?
- Nifong: "I Don't Read Discovery Requests"
- Nifong Explains His Approach to DNA
- Nifong & Emostafa
- Chronicle Op-Ed
- "Something Happened"
- Judge Tjoflat's Perspective
- Nifong: Politics and the Press
- Jones Renews Call for Federal Inquiry
- Easley: Hardin as Interim DA
- When Suspects Aren't Suspects
- The Great Dissembler
- Nifong Defends the "Old-Fashioned Way"
- The Origin of Hooligans
- Nifong's "Law Enforcement Purpose"
- McClain: Group of 88 Defiant, Despite Settlement
- On the Bookshelf, II
- Montgomery-Blinn and NC "Innocence"
- Praising Beth Brewer
- Lane Williamson
- A Wild Day
- Nifong Is Out
- Nifong and Williamson
- Easley: Nifong Should Go Now
- Bannon on Absolute Innocence
- Duke and Three Families Settle
- Nifong Resigns . . . Eventually
- Marsha Goodenow Testimony
- Professor Bannon's Lecture
- Reflections on the Hearing
- More from Wonderland
- Beard on Nifong
- Nifong Defends Linwood Wilson
- The Himan Smoking Gun
- Brad Bannon on Nancy Grace
- Williamson Remarks
- Sunday Hearing Roundup
- Findings
- Nifong Accepts Disbarment
- MaryEllen Finnerty
- David Evans
- Bar Character Witnesses--Jerry Parnell
- Verdict
- Brocker Follow-up
- Freedman Closing
- Nifong: "Old-Fashioned Guy"
- Nifong Closing Statement
- Nifong Inconsistencies
- Nifong and DNA: Closing Statement
- Nifong False Statements
- Bar's Closing Statements, Continued
- Closing Arguments: "Minister of Injustice"
- Nifong's Selective Memory
- Mike Nifong's "Flexible" Apology
- Nifong Trial, Day Four
- Bar Rebuttal
- Nifong Character Witnesses
- Tara Levicy
- Nifong: "Something Happened"
- Nifong: "I Don't Read Files"
- N&O: Nifong Is Out
- More Nifong Cross
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June
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- "From the Scottsboro Boys to Clarence Gideon, some of the most memorable legal narratives have been tales of the wrongly accused. Now “Until Proven Innocent,” a new book about the false allegations of rape against three Duke lacrosse players, can join these galvanizing cautionary tales . . , Taylor and Johnson have made a gripping contribution to the literature of the wrongly accused. They remind us of the importance of constitutional checks on prosecutorial abuse. And they emphasize the lesson that Duke callously advised its own students to ignore: if you’re unjustly suspected of any crime, immediately call the best lawyer you can afford."--Jeffrey Rosen, New York Times Book Review
Links
Motions and Documents
- Attorney General's Report
- DNA motion
- Lineup motion
- Supplementary lineup motion
- Change of venue motion
- Bar amended complaint/Nifong response
- December 15 hearing
- State Bar v. Nifong
- Brewer removal motion
- Nifong December 28 letter to Bar
- Nifong January 16 letter to Bar
- Group of 88 statement (removed from Duke website)
- Group of 88 membership
- Transcript of relevant sections, April 4 "identification" "procedure"
169 comments:
Jeez read the last paragraph on that chart.
Am I reading this correctly?
NINE unidentified, so not including the bf, male sperm or skill cells?
Such a busy girl.
wow, thats a lot of....DNA....
Does that mean at least 10 other males made contributions? Will we ever know the exact number?
This is really astonishing. It looked really bad back in December and now we find out that was with only half the DNA data?
Them are just some nasty, nasty panties. And Nifong threw his career away for the woman who wore 'em.
This is like the 1978 EPA report on the New York "Love Canal" contamination.
This is the 2006 DSI report on the Crystal Mangum "Love Canal"...
But this one looks much worse!
Did Meehan ever give a "final" report that includes all 22 items tested?
At least she is an honor student and got an 'A' in a difficult course.
Darn! The girl has more male DNA in her than a fertility clinic!
Hey, is Nifong's DNA on that list?
Why dont people realize that this is directly exculpatory because it puts the lie to the idea that the contact did not leave DNA. She described contact that left DNA. analysis shows that she has DNA all over her but not the alleged attackers. It is impossible to wash off just part of the DNA so>>>>>they DID NOT DO IT. If she had no DNA, you could argue that she washed it off or bad sampling but this data PROVES to the possibility of one in a trillion trillion trillion that the entire thing was impossible.
Of course, we all knew that right away and only some people were willig to say so, others wanted the process to work.
Wow! ...and I thought my X-wife was busy! Poor poor Nifong, we have known for some time that he was too stupid to get away with railroading these guys. I wonder who he has railroaded before, that we have never heard about. I hope the civil trials have a pay per view option. This stuff is better than anything I have seen on TV.
Disbarrment+Fired+CivilSuits=Justice
How phenomenally hot!
KC is so meticulous and detailed.
Debrah
Brad Bannon really does his homework!
Is anyone else impressed that Bannon taught himself this stuff? I don't even really understand his chart and he has put explanations at the bottom.
OMG - This is a visual aid. No wonder Meeham thought he could pull the wool over the defense attorneys eyes. Brad - you are a genius and a great guy.
Time to re-visit a lot of old criminal cases.
Bannon was born in 1970. Doesn't he look like he is fresh out of law school?
Lawyer Williamson said at the first hearing " In this instance, lack of team DNA did prove innocence," paraphasing
Don't forget Mikey spent most of his career in traffic court, lording it over speeders, lane changers and jay walkers...though I know he did try some criminal cases.
What have I learned from this? Nifong is dumber, lazier, more arrogant and more malicious than I could have imagined.
Tuco
{Sarcasm}Poor woman. She couldn't even afford a second "work uniform."{/sarcasm}
Man, those are some nasty panties.
GOOD GOD
Crystal Gail Mangum contained more semen than the refrigerator at a sperm bank. Wonder what's swimming around in her right now?
This entire affair is far worse than all of Jerry Springer's episodes combined. I wanna laugh but can't.
JLS says...,
Yeah Nifong has not handled a criminal case for many years before this one.
As for Mangum, anyone who read the hand written statement of her driver knows she is a hooker. I have not really seen a study of the issue, but common sense suggests to me that a hooker would have lots of DNA, sexual fluids and otherwise on them.
Did anyone else catch yesterday's testimony, when they were discussing Cystal's Poleece record and someone said she had a possible sexual assualt on her kids arrest?
Kemp
The best is Ann Coulter's " more semen that a petrite dish in a fertility clinic."
sure did Kemp Then someboday else mad ref that she had accused somebody of assaulting one of her kid's. Confusing
I am sure that the panties had to be nailed down in order to keep them from just walking away. Do you get the feeling that Crystal isn't exactly as fresh as a daisy? Good Gawd, it must seem like she's always hiding a grouper. Whew.
wonder if she has ever been tested for std or any ref to that in her sealed medical records
I'm guessing that she participated in a Bukkake party earlier in the day.
The last 6:35 poster said "time to revisit a lot of old criminal cases". Absolutely, and not only because Nifong was the prosecutor for them (think of the roles his predecessors have played).
CGM tried to run down a cop with a car. Generally cops take very strong exception to that sort of thing - why was she treated with such extreme leniency? What service was she providing the police?
To me, the obvious answer is SNITCH. (In fact I've read she was seen shouting drunkenly "I'm at cop!" at the players in a video of the porch scene. Why would she identify so with the police?) How many people, possibly as innocent as the lacrosse players, are/have been in the slammer because of the tips of this "informant"? She seems to be just the sort of lowlife that is often used in this role.
In fact, today I had a bizarre thought. We've now seen the limitlessness of Nifong's evil, we know he knew CGM and her family from some years back, we've learned (through KC's fine work) how the election he so desperately wanted to win was slipping hopelessly away from him before the Duke case showed up, providentially.
Providentially? Nifong will know the scum of the city, how to make deals with them... We do know that the escort service sent over dancers who didn't match what had been requested.
Do I need to change the tinfoil lining in my hat? Crazier, meseems, speculations have been floated in this affair.
Hate to say it, but: That's some serious pole dancing.
Good grief! Is this woman building a personal sperm bank?
If CGM had as many penises sticking out of her as she had stuck into her, she would look like a porcupine.
Couldn't she at least have showered?
OMG, what if she DID shower but this is what remained>
Suspicion:
Someone likely told Nifey:
"Don't worry; rape victims never
lie, in my experience. We can
make this work, with or without
the DNA. Just don't let anyone see
the lab results."
Whether that person advising Mikey
was Wendy Murphy or someone closer
to the case, you can bet that
Nifey's attorney will count on
that "expert witness" -
to fall on Nifey's sword.
She won't know she's being set up
until she's being cross examined,
and that's what Nifong's lawyers
are betting on: the Eve defense.
"She gave me an apple, and I ate."
Nifey's defense will expect the
cross to shred the credibility
of his witness, but claim that
Mikey unknowingly bit into the
apple, thinking she was somehow
credible.
If I were on Nifong's list to
testify, I think I'd risk not
showing up.
well, either way you cut it, bannon educating himself or hiring a DNA expert or both, its obvious there were a hell of alot of billable hours involved going thru this data. when one considers spending millions to defend against a known hooker theres little wonder why the justice system is held in such low esteem. damn, what a waste of resources
MAC - what are you smoking today - I knew this thing was coming down to original sin, Here we are.
Nifey had to be incredulous when told that the LAX3 were the ONLY males in Durham County whose semen was NOT found in his star liar's honey pot.
7:02. Interesting ideas. Bottom line is that Nifong was elected DA. Whether he bit the apple or not doesn't matter. He's ultimately responsible for his office.
He's a dead man.
Bannon was magnificent. If he could learn all that he did about DNA on his own, don't you think the DA could have done the same? (Unless he already knew it.) Nifong had to be an absolute idiot to use the press as he did to try the 3 innocents and then ignore all the speculation about the DNA in the media. Should have dropped the case then and there.
What a busy girl haha
"This entire affair is far worse than all of Jerry Springer's episodes combined. I wanna laugh but can't."
Yet it took some of took some of the finest and most expensive lawyering most of us will witness in our lifetimes to "Discover" the withheld exculpatory evidence. Good gawd. Welcome to the "justice" system.
On a different day, with different defendants, Nifong could have won.
Billable hours were worth the money. If either of my sons were in the same boat, I'd spend every dime I have to prove their innocence. The families will get the money back in the civil suits. This is not over yet.
It's really sad to think that this sort of things happens to people without financial resources all the time. Instead of criticizing the men because they comes from families with financial means, we ought to be celebrating exposing Nifong and the practice by other rogue DAs.
Bannon proved more with this DNA chart presentation in 2 minutes, than Meehan did in probably 5 hours + of lying testimony.
Anyone know the whereabouts of the idiot professors at Duke who still think the three guys are guilty? Are they sitting in the galley listening to this?
Kind of scary to think that people like that are teaching in universities.
Those who were concerned that CGM was not central to this discussion must wonder how she must now feel,
having had this "visual aid" on display in court ALL DAY.
It's beyond revolting.
What happened to this woman indeed.
I think the word is "pawn".
re: 6:51
It may be that she was a complainant. I heard this but it went by very quickly. Someone on LS said that they thought she was the complainant.
Quite a foul depiction of the life this skank leads. This alone should've given Nifong pause and led to dropping charges. She had enough unique specimens of man drizzle in her to convince any normal person that she was a two for five whore, consistent with what others who knew her (at the club she danced at) said of her. My God! multiple samples in the vagina, rectum, more in the panties and hair. C'mon.
And yes, without a million each in legal defense, these guys could be in jail right now. I'd sue for defamation just for the suggestion that I'd put it to a piece of trash like this if I were accused.
When the LAX3 were proclaimed INNOCENT, Nifong was rebuked, and CGM was deemed too disturbed to be prosecuted...was that the end of it for her? Or can she be held accountable for bearing false witness in the first place? I get the feeling that she is just going to be allowed to skate away scot free and it infuriates me. Any attorneys or others with info, I would be very appreciative of your educating me on this.
He is going to blame it all on the Sane Nurse in Training. He plans to call her for her to tell the world that she felt a rape occured and that he based his decisions on her. As someone mentioned earlier it doesnt matter if the prosecution rips her apart, Nifong will say that he trusted her poor judgement, it wasn't his falt.
It is just so unbelievable that this DOLT has lied away a career and his life for a cheap tramp.
I wonder how long Cy will hang around at the prison gate for visiting time.
Soon,Tillie the Fongs dog will not have to look at that awful dressing gown and fetch the papers.
The nurse will not help Nifong, Nifong never talked to the Doctor.
Who would not know that you talk to the doctor and not the nurse? Mikey needs another plan.
I bet he never gets on the stand. IT is already a lost cause.
There's nothing to be gained by prosecuting Mangum the "coed single mom". She's got nothing, and is clearly mentally ill.
The Nurse will be found to have described vaginal damage, etc. "consistent" with a possible rape.
Nifong heard what he wanted. He exploited the Black community for the purposes of advancing his career and for his political aspirations.
Plain and simple.
According to Brian Taylor, the guy who took her to the party, Crystal did shower at his place before he drove her to the party.
"As he sat in front of his PlayStation console March 13, the accuser showered behind a closed door and modeled at least two negligees for her host, he said.
"She asked my opinion," he said. "The first one was this black outfit, and I said, 'No.' When she came out in the red one I said, 'That's better.' "
It was 10:45 p.m., Taylor estimated, when they left for 610 N. Buchanan Blvd."
http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/443932.html
It is truly frightening to think that without the extraordinary efforts of Bannon, Cheshire, Osborn et al, those young men would have gone to trial with a good chance of conviction, or a hung jury. I think the NC Bar understands the importance of letting Nifong have it with both barrels.
From RightAngles blog of the hearing:
Jean: What’s a prosecutor’s duty?
Goodenow: To see that justice is done. To be fair and honest. Goal is not to get a conviction or to win the case. “We should always seek the truth, we should always do the right thing. If we don’t, the public has no trust in us.” Says Nifong’s actions have undermined that trust. Some of that was already there but this has heightened that. Recounts an incident when a juror came in wearing a Duke lacrosse t-shirt to trial to make a statement about false prosecution. Recounts another case when a defendant said, “I’ve been Nifonged.”
So she put on dirty underwear?
Or did Taylor take her for a quick gang bang before her next job? she also showed up all whacked on drugs or alcohol.
Guess this DNA Chart gives credence to the SANE nurse and Gottlieb & Himans report that she was too sore to sit comfortably while being interviewed
Freeman keeps refering to the sane nurse saying there was evidence of a rape. This is why he persued the case so vigerously. It is interesting, however, that so much testimony on both sides really deals with his unyeilding persuit of the case which isn't really the bars complaint.
I get the feeling that she is just going to be allowed to skate away scot free and it infuriates me.
I am as furious as anyone abut this travesty, but I am not infuriated that Magnum will likely face no charges. It's pretty clear that she is seriously mentally ill, self-medicates with alchohol as well as being on several of heavy duty psychiatric medications. From what I know of mental illness - in someone I love deeply - Magnum's life is a living hell already. I don't excuse her or her behavior, but there is absolutely nothing we or the law could do to her that is worse than the torture of her own mind and the inner voices and demons she already bears.
Remember how she suddenly ID'ed by real name and not aliases? And her story changed in attempts to fit the timelines?
Does Nifong really plan to put the likely candidates up there and under oath where the Bar folk can X?
Anon 7:45, excellent point. Nifong may have really believe CGM, but the charges here involve statements to the press and withholding of evidence. Believing CGM had been raped doesn't change what Nifong did.
Yes, the bar never did charge Nifong with prosecuting a case without a probable cause, so I am not sure either why all the testimony that seems to go to whether Nifong had probable cause.
I also wonder if the bar could have charged Nifong with prosecuting the case without the probable cause?
Certainly Cooper said there was no credible evidence that a crime took place, and Cooper also said the accused were innocent.
Perhaps the Durham police ought to be trailing CGM and arrest her on charges of prostitution.
To 7:50.
Yes, since Nifong is not charged with prosecuting the boys without probable cause, I don't see why it matters what Levicy told anyone.
I guess, when she took off those panties to have sex, she just propped them up against the wall.
CGM should be put away for exposing people to STD's!
Do any legal types out there have any idea how the Phase 1/Phase 2 process works? If Nifong is found not guilty there's no Phase 2 right? How long will it take to render a decision? (IMHO, they could do it now, but that's not the way the process works.)
Bannon was terrific, absolutely terrific.
For good measure, his hypothetical regarding Nancy Grace was classic.
Good day to be alive.
Chair person stated at the beginning, deliberation will begin at the end of testimony and a decision rendered shortly thereafter.Nifong was cooked from the get-go
So, then, there is no penalty for prosecution without probable cause?
'"We should always seek the truth, we should always do the right thing. If we don’t, the public has no trust in us.”'
Blah, blah, blah. 'Should' doesn't sound like a very strong rule. Perhaps there needs to be a real law with teeth.
Penalty will be disbarment for prosecution w/o probable cause. If he'd gotten away w/ it no punishment, I guess.
Hang him high.
I suspect that prosecuting him for lack of probable cause would be a bit tough. Much of it is a judgement call. There is sooooo much other easily proved stuff to take away his lic for.
Nifong would get so punished should he go to jail.
That would be the supreme justice for this weasel.
7:08
Gonga, man, gonja!
I havin' me some Jamaican
mojo weed!
Nah. My eyes are just
browner 'n usual.
Thanks for askin' though!
Did the DNA have a wide grin and an 80 IQ?
I read on the previous thread [anybody know if it's true?]that Nifong's witnesses are SANE nurse in training Levicy [she can testify all she wants to about believing Magnum, all that has to be asked is: Would your opinion change if you had information that - fill in all the stuff Nifong knew before indictments - If she answers "yes, my opinion would change" Nifong looks worse that a SANE nurse in training, if she says "no" she'll never be able to testify in a rape trial again]; Gottlieb - who has a tremendous self interest in testifying that he thought the LAX3 really did it [same questions to him]; and, Gospel singing, badge wearing doofus boy, who has an even greater personal interest, seeing the story he privately had Crystal come up with. YIKES! What a team. I still don't know why Nifong is putting himself through this.
Walter Cronanty 8:39:
Ya gotta wonder why Mikey's
attorneys would have these guys
on a list- (unless they plan to
throw them under the wheels of the
bus that's about to run over
Mikey.)
You said it all, though.
Very eloquent and to-the-point.
(Wendy Murphy isn't on the list,
too, is she? I'd love to see her
thrown under the wheels of a Bar-
driven bus!)
Again, the killer is... he could have at least dropped the case, maybe say, October, hell even in December, and it wouldn't be as bad as it is now.
it is just incredulous that he handed the case over to the AG in the first place!!! Wasting their time on this obvous non-case, they must have been thinking Mike needs some sort of psychological elvaluation himself.
The only thing going for him now, at least, is the fact that he is confronting his sins in a public arena, or maybe he just thinks there is just nothing to lose.....
There are several aspects of this case that make no sense to me at all and the actual occurrence of this Bar hearing is yet another one.
I took the trouble to read the stipulations both sides agreed to on May 30, 2207. Nifongs side basically gave up and confessed to the essence of both of the charges in the course of agreeing to something like 130 facts. The only half-feasible explanation for him choosing to endure the brutality of this trial is that he thought there was some window of hope of getting thru all of this with something left of his Bar license.
I mean, I got to watch some of the trial today and I did not get the impression that Nifong was enjoying the experience (fame?)for its own sake. And it has to be torture for him watching guys like Bannon display the superman qualities that he alleged for himself while he had to sit there like a limp ,twitching, thoroughly beaten step-child.
8:45, I am the author of the comment at 07:48.
Your language and opinions are beneath contempt.
Re: Nifong's motivations for this hearing and for attempting to try the young men once again,
I wonder if he thinks this will somehow mitigate his risks in civil suits. I.E. to get arguments "on the record" which can be cited later in an attempt to forestall huge financial and maybe even legal penalties.
I still would like to see the AAAs building named after the boys.
And now, I think the Gang of 88, Brodhead, and the other abettors, should be required to use the DNA sample chart as a screen saver on their computers.
This chart really is amazing.
I've already ordered a couple of Dr. Johnson's book for gifts, but am thinking I may need buy some more. Those that aren't following this travesty should have an understanding how thin the line really is, especially those with white boys in college.
Can anyone confirm that Mangum alleged someone had sexually assaulted one of her children?
If so, that would make three sexual assaults in her life time, the first 'gang rape' by boyfriend, the second, a sexual assault of her child and the third, the imaginary Duke rape.
That makes her a serial false accuser and she should be in a mental hospital.
Levicy isn't going to help Nifong in the least.
The 'vaginal edema' is certainly consistent with having sex with 10 men in a 7 day period PLUS using a dildo on yourself the same day.
The 'hysterics' and 'incoherence' are certainly consitent with being bipolar, psychotic or on a multitude of scripts with a good helping of booze, also consistent with a liar who is 'acting' the way she thinks an actual rape victim should act.
Levicy also can't help him with his bar charges, she can't wave her SANE wand and make the media interviews go away or make his lies to the judge go away or make his withholding evidence go away.
It will be interesting to hear from Levicy:
-Has she changed her mind?
-Did she or Nifong bring up the 'maybe condoms afterall'?
-What exactly did Mangun say about her sexual activities?
-Why was no tox screen done?
8:45 PM Sociopath....
Now that is truly disturbing. I guess you have no class, or your parents have no class.
Please do not feed the trolls
Dear 8:56
The Lax guys have been quite lucky to have gotten to this point - considering the situation a year ago and the evil intent and vast resources of the DA and cohorts.
There has always been a steady dribble of purely racialist comments coming in here and that has often made me angry because taking on a load of that sort of thing would have just made this (what has been a sort of rescue mission) a lot harder.
You can think and say what you want, I guess but there is something uniquely ill mannered about saying it here. These guys were in real danger until a short time ago (from a white lunatic) and adding your attitudes to their position would not have helped one bit getting them out of the malignant grip of M. Nifong. Quite the opposite.
Damn, if that is what people in Durham walk around with, next time I go I'm going to wear a raincoat and latex gloves. You may even see me do my best Monk imitation every time I get near somebody.
Yes, don't feed the trolls. When KC shows up he will delete those.
Mangum and "Little Baby Duke" will never know its daddy unless half of Durham and Jesse Jackson have their DNA tested. Whom do we send money to get "Baby Duke" a daddy?
Not to be too crude, but if Nifong thought he was "f*cked" back in March of '06, he is now even more f*cked than Crystal, and we've seen her DNA tracks.
I haven't seen any discussion yet how this day look in the context of race, class and gender. This would provide important contextual meta-narrative, in the context of race, class and gender.
Hoping for a clarifying statement from Duke AA department (in the context of race, class and gender).
If Nifong has a strategy, it may well be to take whatever shots he can at the bar hearing, then appeal on the theory that he was "singled out" by the Bar for unusually harsh treatment amid a public lynch mob mentality (which he himself helped to create!!). Just a thought......... OTOH, maybe it's just a giant ego ready to go down with the ship.....
Talk about "swellin' v. . gina walls." . . . er, diffuse edema, . . er, a big one. Why ma goodness, you can't get the sellin' . . . er, selling . . . swelling to go away that way, can you?
Nifey must have believed that
they'd use attenuated gunpowder,
(to use the word in a variant form.)
Wonder how CGM's father is dealing
with this...evidence?
Who is Matthew Murchison?
Hi, Polanski.
Did anyone else notice the questioning of Brad Bannon regarding the medical records of Ms. Mangum? Am I mistaken or did he say he has the records but would not want to be the person to hand them over to the panel? I think that the medical records go to the issue of probable cause as did much of the testimony, and I wonder if the panel will address the lack of probable cause in some way, even if they do not use the issue to disbar Mr. Nifong.
Observer
Murchison is Crystal Mangum's boyfriend.
To Anonymous @ 7:48:00 PM
>>>I am as furious as anyone abut this travesty, but I am not infuriated that Magnum will likely face no charges. It's pretty clear that she is seriously mentally ill, self-medicates with alchohol as well as being on several of heavy duty psychiatric medications. From what I know of mental illness - in someone I love deeply - Magnum's life is a living hell already. I don't excuse her or her behavior, but there is absolutely nothing we or the law could do to her that is worse than the torture of her own mind and the inner voices and demons she already bears.<<<
CM should be prosecuted! Mental disease/defect is NOT a reason to avoid any prosecution of CM. Any half-way decent defense lawyer will bring up her medical history and would probably get a “not guilty due to mental disease/defect.” Then she would be FORCED to undergo mental treatment under the watchful eye of medical professionals and a court.
Hinkley was prosecuted for shooting Reagan, et al. He is STILL in a mental hospital. Besides, if she isn’t forced into treatment (and be followed by medical professionals) what will happened to her kids???? Would you want to grow up in that household?
Just think, OJ was found “not guilty” and he was free to “raise” his kids while he continued to act like a stereotypical frat boy. And now, OJ’s kids have been in trouble with the law.
What will CM’s THREE kids grow up to be if she doesn’t get treatment and people continue to make excuses for her?
Remember the song “Where Have All the Flowers Gone”? The chorus is: When will they every learn? When will they EVER learn?
Will Durham take the hint?
This is from an earlier KC post -- very much worth re-reading in the current context. I've linked it at the end...
Peterson justified her position pragmatically: “Many of them are infected with diseases, and their lifestyles are very, very dangerous,” Peterson informed the county commission. “Many don’t live to be senior citizens. Who’s going to pay this expense if they get sick in their [...] lifestyle?” And if “they are not infected with diseases . . . they will be, even women.”
The long-term effects of the policy, Peterson feared, could lead to a fundamental demographic shift in Durham. “I’m not trying to be rude,” she told county commissioners shortly before the Supreme Court’s Texas v. Lawrence decision, “but approving these health benefits for sodomites ought to be illegal because the law does not recognize sodomy . . . If this is approved in Durham County, we’re going to have [...] coming from all over the country. It’s going to be a burdensome expense on taxpayers.” In the end, according to Peterson, the question was a simple one: “Who is going to pay for this if they become sick in their [...] lifestyle?”
“They could,” she told a North Carolina House committee, “come to work dressed one day looking like a female and two weeks later looking like a male. We do not recognize people who actively engage in a [...] lifestyle.” Anyhow, the measure wasn’t needed, since “the [...] community makes plenty of money. Just because of how you have sex, does not mean anyone is entitled to special rights.”
Of course, these comments were directed at gays and lesbians, but substitute prostitutes for the ellipses and see how it reads. Then notice who Victoria Peterson supports in a very malignant way.
Here's the link: Nifong's Strange Bedfellows.
Anyone have an idea how much this might be costing the Fongster personally in $$$ ?
Did anyone think todays showing of the videos of Nifong blabbing in front of the camera's and Durham Black Community absolutely HORRIBLE and CHILLING second time around?
Was he that STUPID or off his head??
I guess after this, CGM can rent
herself out to be a Glade plug-in?
Really and seriously, how is she
going to make a living?
It is not hard to see why Reverend
Jackson left town. The grapevine
knew.
One other thing...it is my understanding that DNA evidence often survives showering and laundering. My guess is that Ms. Mangum was as cleaned up as she possibly could be when she arrived at Buchanan Street-- as per the driver's testimony. These DNA particles are so extremely tiny. We are all covered with the DNA of others (although probably not in our private areas), along with a lot of other kind of yucky stuff.
Observer
Re:
"Yes, the bar never did charge Nifong with prosecuting a case without a probable cause, so I am not sure either why all the testimony that seems to go to whether Nifong had probable cause."
(@ 7:51:00 PM)
Maybe showing how virtually nonexistent the case was makes Nifong's statements to the contrary all the more improper and, therefore, worthy of strong sanctions.
******
By the way, person who keeps making the racist remarks is a hateful jerk. I realize that by saying this, I am "feeding the trolls," but I think it's important that to challenge those remarks. We may never change his mind, but at least we can assure the rest of the world that we're not inviting people with such opinions into the tent with us.
Ken Duke
the poster at 8:45 and 8:56 just might be Peterson herself checking in on the discussion, still pissed she got booted from the courthouse!
CGM probably did have a yeast infection on top of everything else (not to mention other maladies) -- I'll bet she did have some edema!
Society is paying for all the damage she has caused (with lots of help), for her drups, for her kids, and for so many more things. Sad to say but she has single-handedly offset the positive contributions of a considerable number of people, even before the hoax. Looked at another way, there are probably a good-sized pool of taxpayers that pay taxes exclusively to support her and hers.
Ken Duke,
It's Polanski.
He drips by, like a leaky
pair of Depends now and then.
Brad Bannon has this case memorized and it was not wise to quiz him in-depth on it. Love how he gave credit to Joe Cheshire for allowing Meehan to make an ass of himself on Dec 15 2006. Bannon is not self-absorbed and one could only hope and pray, should they ever need an attorney, the likes of Bannon would be available.
... and yet, she was held up as the exemplar of a hard-working (OK, I may have to conceed this point!) student and good mother -- an "African Queen" who was above any criticism, the perfect victim.
With regard to who's paying the legal fees for all of this, I don't know for sure about NC, but in general, public employees' attorneys in matters like this are generally paid for by their employers (indirectly, the taxpayers).......... that is, prior to any finding of culpability..... if Nifong is found cupable, Durham County might try to recoup the legal expenses, but that may well be a long shot.
As to Brad Bannon, because he was not called as an expert witness, he would just get standard witness fees, perhaps $50.00 per day or so. Of course, the advertising for Bannon is "priceless".
Anyone know for sure how it works in NC?
SOME gay leftists, though, joined with Victoria Peterson and supported the potbanging types. (Even overlooking Peterson's homophobia). I guess it was some gay leftist (meathead) pathetic attempt to link themselves with other minorities, women's causes, etc. What's really funny is that one of those Durham lesbians, named Pam, who criticized Peterson long before the Duke case, is now writing for Pandagon, but now she can't even amusedly bring up Peterson's moron-behavior at the court because then she'll also be bringing up the Duke subject that will make that marcotte Pandagon girl look like a fool again. Ha ha! Talk about a bind. (Not to criticize all gays. More conservative and reasonable gay blogs, and sources, I noticed were fair about the case from the beginning, and some have celebrated Nifong and Co. getting their just desserts).
JLS says....,
As I said on the another thread today, Nifong committed suicide by refusing to drop these charges last summer. Had he dropped these charges for "lack of evidence" a month or so after the primary:
1. He almost certainly would have won the general election.
2. He would have at most gotten a slap on the wrist from the bar for his statements.
3. His hiding of the DNA evidence would have never have become known.
4. He would get in his time for his big pension.
5. He would have been a big Femi-Nazi hero, many more would think Evans, Finnerty and Seligmann or some 2006 Duke lacrosse players were guilty and got away with it and Nifong would probably be on Nancy Grace panels as he likely dreamed of.
But he is a stuborn jerk and Durham and the rest of the country is lucky he took on someones who could fight back. So Durham and the rest of the country will soon be rid of him.
The reason Mangum can't be prosecuted (and the reason the State prosecutor so quickly dismissed the idea) is that there is no way to prove that someone with psychotic tendencies/mental illness didn't honestly believe all of the different statements she made at different times. With a normal, healthy person widely varying statements are evidence of lying, but with a psychotic they're just a symptom of the underlying disease.
To respond to what a previous poster said about Hinckly, this is a completely different situation. Hinckly committed an actual, physical crime, attempted murder, and insanity was his defense. For CM, the "crime" of false testimony depends completely on whether she believed the statements she was making were true, and it is impossible to prove what a psychotic/mentally ill person actually believed at any given time. If she had sworn that she saw 6 inch tall red men with pitchforks chasing her that night, would she have been lying or would she simply have been reporting what she really did see?
What the discussion on this point is missing is what the bar will certainly see as one more nail in Nifong's coffin. The fault isn't CM's; the fault is that Nifong KNEW her mental history & diagnosis BEFORE indictment! NO Prosecutor in the country would EVER take a case to trial with the testimony of a diagnosed psychotic as his only evidence! That move guaranteed eventual failure from the start, and is one more line of proof (as if any more were needed) that Nifong KNEW this case was bogus long before the first indictment was filed.
Nifong still has a bit of a bitter erection for Duke in general for being denied admission as an undergrad in the late 60's. That will never go away. It was not all about being elected. The guy is psycho, capable of, I will not even go there.
Who's cell phone got confiscated at today's hearing?
One other note on CM's varying statements: I think there's strong circumstantial evidence that she didn't actually make the final December statement which recanted the rape story and changed the timeline to try to patch the holes in the story. That statement is so carefully crafted to try to fix the legal holes that I think there is a strong possibility that it was drafted by Nifong himself and then taken to CM by Linwood Wilson in order for him to get both her signature and her promise not to contradict any of it in public. This would be why Linwood Wilson had to go by himself, without Himan, even though that was a gross violation of policy, and why Wilson did not keep any transcripts or recordings of the supposed "interview".
CM's defense would be obvious: "I just signed what the DA told me to sign, he said it was legal and I trusted him."
Although I think that is the only viable explanation for the circumstances of that last "interview", it will never come out in the open unless CM or Wilson flips on Nifong (and I don't see enough pressure being placed on either of them to do that.)
JLS says...
re: anon 10:23
I agree. Mangum may well have said the words in her lastest statement, but Wilson led her through it.
But it is awful that she is getting way with this because of her "some white boys are going to be paying me" statement and how she apparently latched on to this so firmly as she kept saying she wanted to go forward.
Re: "Duke1965 said...
'With regard to who's paying the legal fees for all of this, I don't know for sure about NC, but in general, public employees' attorneys in matters like this are generally paid for by their employers (indirectly, the taxpayers).......... that is, prior to any finding of culpability.....'"
I would be very surprized if the State is paying Nifong's legal bills. The case is against him personally, not against the District Attorney. Still, crazier things have happened, you can't make this stuff up, etc.
As to Bannon's fee for testifying: I did not get to watch all of his testimony. At the beginning, was he "qualified as an expert?" i.e, did the Bar counsel ask him a series of questions about his qualifications, experience, etc. (like she did when she qualified the ADA from Charlotte as an expert in prosecutorial standards and practices) and then tender him as an expert? If she didn't then he is simply a fact witness, and should not be paid as an expert witness.
I would be surprized if the attorneys who testify are getting / accepting any kind of fee at all.
Ken Duke
Durham Lawyer
Anon 10:23 is right - no way CGM concocted that desperate December timeline-plugging BS herself: bet she saw it for the first time after it had been all typed up.
It wasn't a brilliant revision, in fact it stunk...but showed at least a passing acquaintance with physical reality that's clearly quite beyond Ms. Mangum.
Of course the new story couldn't withstand ten minute's comparison with the evidence, but as a try, it had the earmarks of bravado, contempt and deviousness that one associates with Mr. Nifong.
The Doctor made the Vagina Edema DX, so Levicy can not testify to that. All she can testify to is what is documented on the checklist by her.
Ken,
You may well be right....... However, while the case is against Nifong personally, it relates to his "on the job" actions, at least until findings are made....... interesting question........
Well, 10:11, how do you explain this?
The woman was diganosed with bi-polar illness and depression.
http://cbs2.com/topstories/local_story_313163134.html
Those who are saying that Mangum shouldn't be prosecuted or otherwise held accountable because she's several beers short of a six pack are engaging in double-standards, IMO because the 'poor dear' is a woman. Consider Charlie Manson, Ted Bundy, et al. Would you not agree those those fellows are just a bit mentally unstable? I have yet to hear anyone offering the "they've suffered enough" for any of those guys, or any other man for that matter. I would expect the 'p-ssy pass' excuse from G88ers, but not from regular, normal people.
I realize that muderers, rapists, et al. are dangerous as well as mentally unstable, but IMO so is Precious. Heck, she's already falsely accused at least one other man, tried to run-down a cop, etc. That woman should be locked up - she's a menace to society.
10:23,
Not likely the CGM December statement came from Mr. Nifong. It was that statement that Mr. Nifong said made no sense and led him to dismiss the rape charges. More likely it came from a mixed up psychotic or a dimwit trying to bolster a deeply flawed case...or maybe a psychotic and a dimwit putting their heads together in a coordinated but hapless and failed attempt to keep the hoax alive.
Can't we all just get along?
10:54, the next time you need an attorney, try calling your equally astute buddies, I'm sure they'll do just as well as Brad Bannon............. troll.
MB - look at your examples. All people who committed multiple murders, actual physical crimes of violence. Apples and oranges - false testimony is a crime of pure intent, since it is not a crime to be wrong if you sincerely believe what you say. Legally and practically, it is impossible to prove what a mentally ill person believes, and without proof of belief there can be no proof supporting a pure intent crime such as filing a false statement.
As far as the diagnosis for depression and bipolar disorders, which are relatively benign - look at the constant references everyone involved in this case, including Bannon today, keep making to the sealed medical records. The states special prosecutors made the same references - obviously that bipolar report is just the tip of a very large iceberg.
The reaction of everyone who's seen CM's sealed medical files is "oh jeez, we don't even wanna go there" which tells me what's in them is really, really, really bad.
It is infuriating that the court tv shows keep harping away at how this case will negatively impact future rape victims but say not a word about false accusation. FA is the basis to this case and if we neglect paying attention to that aspect we are simply asking for the same thing over and over.
I don't care how mentally ill CGM might be. She needs to be held accountable in some manner. She is a clear danger to her community and to society and needs to be dealt with.
Why did both Mikey and Levicy believe that women never lie about rape?
answer? Your tax money. VAWA spews out about a billion $'s a year and a chunk of that goes to "educating" police, judges etc about how women never lie about rape and other sexist mantras. We are all paying for this hateful ideology. Your senator and congressman voted for this since the vote was unanimous.
We are in it deep. God bless KC for steadfastly pointing a finger at the craziness.
The saddest part of this is...we will all get to see how Nifong is dealt with under the criminal system, but i would suspect any civil cases will be settled and sealed by some non-disclosure clause. The state of NC, the City of Durham, and what ever county they are in will be left with a huge liability, and will likely settle...I just hope that the lawyers for the Duke 3 refuse any deal that would require any form of confidentiality clause...they need to have everything made public.
MB--
Well, gee, there's some difference between being a serial killer and hallucinating that you have been raped, isn't there? I really don't think people are distinguishing these situations because Mangum is a woman--if she had killed a lot of people I doubt there would be much sympathy for the idea that she shouldn't be held accountable.
Actually, in this case the possible mental illness directly impacts the essence of the possible crime: if she believes what she is saying, no matter how delusional that belief is, then she can't knowingly be making a false accusation--because you have to know what you are saying is false to commit that crime. And given her appparent general demeanor and her propensity for apparently believing whatever comes into her head, the likelihood of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that she did not believe what she was saying is very slim.
As always the question that comes to mind; WHY?
Could Nifong be protecting one of those unidentified males?
Can this really all be about money and politcs? That just doesn't make sense.
Wow. No wonder she had trouble ambulating and it hurt to sit down with all that up the keister and everywhere else.
And knowing all of this Nifong went ahead and indicted Collin, Reade and Dave. Disbarment seems to good for him.
Depression and Bipolar relatively benign - what universe are you in. These mental illness can destroy a life - suffer unbearable mental paing - The fine is $500.00 for the false claim - which she may believe.
If you really want to know who had sex with Mangum........publish an article in the local paper saying that she has AIDS and anyone that has had sexual contact with her should consult a physician IMMEDIATELY. A boon for the local GP's for sure!
After this is all over and the case becomes a memory, CGM will make the news one last time. It won't be a good story either. If she continues this life-style, she will end up dead sooner or later. I am in NO WAY wishing this upon her. I hope she turns her life around. Fact is though, she has chosen a fast track to the grave.
BTW, I don't care how nuts she is......she should be in jail right now for what she has done.
Ewwwwwww!
This woman is a living example of the term "c** dumpster".
As I have thought from the very beginning, this was a work of fiction by CGM. T
The abuses of the Mr. Nifong, are gross miscarages of justice.
With that said, someone earlier wondered why Mr. Nifong is going through all of this BAR trial if it's no-win. I think it's so he can be the victim of those mean evil people to try and "get" him. Too bad that those evil people were the ones that he is accountable to.
As the victim, Mr. Nifong, gets to rally the troops, and says, I tried but the "Man" put me down. now vote for me for... city council/congress/dog catcher.
The whackjobs that support Nifong, will never believe something as simple as the truth. The outcome of this trial will be pointless to them.
I think that disbarment,and a hefty prison term is called for.
But what do I know, I'm just a lowly citizen of NC.
WB.
Those who are saying that Mangum shouldn't be prosecuted or otherwise held accountable because she's several beers short of a six pack are engaging in double-standards, IMO because the 'poor dear' is a woman.
No. Your anger and prejudices are getting in the way of your judgement here.
This is a mentally ill person who was under the influence of physician-prescribed, heavily psychotropic medications. (And who quite possibly augmented those with alcohol, which is Not a Good Thing to do.)
This is a person whose medical diagnosis includes bouts of psychosis, i.e. firm beliefs and inner experiences that everyone else thinks are either untrue or exaggerated.
Whether rightly or wrongly, society has decided that such persons are not incarcerated, short of demonstrated danger to themselves or to the lives of others. 'Lives' here meaning physical danger.
It is the responsibility of the police and the DA to use good judgement when deciding what to do in response to such a person's claim of rape. Legally and ethically, they had a responsibility to investigate the claim -- even the mentally ill can be raped. (And often are, in part because their own actions may put them in situations of vulnerability to it.)
Legally and ethically the DA and police had a responsibility to take the claim seriously and investigate it thoroughly.
They also had a legal and ethical responsibility to decline to indict when that investigation did not show that a rape clearly happened or that the indictees were responsible for perpetrating it.
Nifong and buddies get no slack from me - zilch, nada. But they were absolutely right to investigate, even (in the early days, before the DNA) to do so in the face of erratic behavior on the part of a mentally ill person.
It's what they did when they realized they had no case to bring that is so reprehensible.
For all of the talk about Mangum being mentally ill and therefore not able to stick to a story or to distinguish between reality and fantasy consider this:
There is one thing Mangum never wavered on and that is her desire to prosecute the white boys and make them pay.
She's sane enough to have held solidly to that goal.
Although I'm not writing that she isn't mentally ill I do believe she has demonstrated more ability to decipher what is "truth" than she is being credited with.
In her mentally ill state she never lost site of the fact that if she could get these boys convicted she would be able to get money from them.
She has demonstrated the fact that she knows truth from fantasy.
There is something CGM has learned that society has taught her and that is that she can pretty much behave however she wants to (false accusing others, trying to run down a police officer with a car, etc) and not be held accountable.
correction: "falsely" accusing others
6:45
She has demonstrated the fact that she knows truth from fantasy.
Actually, that has not been demonstrated at all.
Perhaps you're not familiar with mental illnesses. This person quite possibly does NOT know the truth from fantasy. Quite literally, on some topics and at some times she does not.
Human brains cannot distinguish strongly imagined scenes from real memories. That's why hypnosis works on many people, and it's why false memories are a serious issue when some therapists try to help patients recover allegedly buried memories of abuse. Such memories do legitimately reside in a minority of people - but if the therapist is not extremely scrupulous, s/he can implant imagined experiences that are so vivid the brain accepts them as real memories.
Now extrapolate that to a brain whose neurochemical signals are not in balance. One of the distinguising factors of serious bi-polar syndrome is that as the affect (emotional highs and lows) swing out of control, it sometimes messes up other neurochemical systems. That leads to transitory or persistent hallucinations (usually inner voices) combined with feelings of grandiose importance.
Magnum's actions fit this profile to a 'T'. You cannot state credibly that she knows the difference between fantasy and truth, because failure to do so on some issues (often having to do with sex) is a key symptom of her professionally diagnosed condition.
Someone said that Bipolar Illness
is relatively benign. Depends.
Personality Disorders can be
relatively benign, too. Depends.
Both can cause an enormous amount
of damage. Depends.
Ms. Mangum's illness - perhaps
a combination of bipolar illness
and schizophrenia, which is
sometimes called schizoaffective
disorder (just guessing) - would
be potentially devastating.
Moreover, a person who is willing
to cause harm to her own life
through life-threatening behaviors,
and who is a threat to others
-(as she demonstrated in her urge
to prosecute three innocent young
men) - deserves prosecution,
because (as someone said already)
that may be the only way to force
her into the "system."
She needs to be in a place with
walls of some sort, preferably
padded.
Hard to imagine she's already being
treated with antipsychotics.
perhaps a combination of bipolar illness and schizophrenia, which is sometimes called schizoaffective disorder (just guessing)
My guess too.
Prosecution isn't the only way to force her into 'the system', by the way. And it is quite likely to trigger her into total mental and emotional collapse.
I agree, she needs intervention and to be embedded in a situation where she does no further harm to self or others. But I'm not sure legal prosecution is the path to that.
Re: antipsychotics, a) they don't always work 100%, b) a given medication or combination doesn't always work for a given person and c) a dose high enough to ENSURE no disordered thinking pretty much removes thinking entirely.
It's a tough balance that can stymie even very skilled, experienced psychiatrists. And it's one reason that many people with strong degrees of bi-pola and schizo-affective disorder also use alchohol despite its demonstrated bad effects when combined with the meds.
And for those who find it easy to talk about 'skanky hos', indiscriminate and dangerous sex is common among those afflicted with these mental illnesses -- and so are inner voices (often believed to be coming from others) that condemns them for it.
Many people diagnosed as bi-polar manage their symptoms well and contribute to society. But for others, it can be a hellish condition to have.
6:56
Mangum has demonstrated that she knows truth from fantasy because she has held onto the truth that if rich boys are convicted for committing a crime against her she can sue them and get money.
That is one truth she has not departed from or varied from one iota. She has not lapsed into times of believing, misunderstanding or fantasizing that she can collect money from them without them being convicted.
Or any other variation of thought that would lead her to believe she can drop charges against them and still benefit financially.
Yes, she may be mentally ill. I have no contention with that.
"Perhaps you're not familiar with mental illness" you say.
I wish that were the case. Unfortunately, most of us who live in this world are familiar with mental illness.
Mangum has demonstrated that she knows truth from fantasy because she has held onto the truth that if rich boys are convicted for committing a crime against her she can sue them and get money.
You don't get it. The fact that she can be lucid on one point doesn't mean she is in general lucid.
mb, I think you're simply wrong. You have a chip on your shoulder that's pretty big and it's obscuring your vision.
Anonymous 10:11AM, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree re. whether or not CGM should be held accountable for her actions. As for a "chip on my shoulder," how so? Is it that I recognize that this case was about race, class and gender, and as such, the race, class and gender of the players are germane vis-a-vis the disparate treatment they've recieved?
I believe, like many others, that along with racism and classism, sexism (i.e., feminist ideology) is behind much of the injustice in this case, so IMO glossing it over, denying culpability, etc., will only serve to enable the guilty to walk and is an injustice in and of itself. For once, just once, I'd like to see the career sexists (e.g., members of the G88) held accountable for the damage they cause to individuals and society at large.
I have to say I'm pretty grossed out by the implications of this chart.
What a freaking petri-dish!
As for a "chip on my shoulder," how so? Is it that I recognize that this case was about race, class and gender, and as such, the race, class and gender of the players are germane vis-a-vis the disparate treatment they've recieved?
No, it's that you keep insisting that people like me, who are not left wing ideologues or professional feminists, might in fact base our position re: not prosectuing Magnum on some basis other than that she is female.
That's a way big chip you carry. The G88 gave you a good reason to be mad about the race/class/gender warfare people, but you can't seem to recognize that there are people who don't fall into that category and still don't agree with you on one point.
2:48, OK, I hear you and will give you the benefit of the doubt that you personally aren't considering her status as a woman in your assessements. However, from what I've seen from the LE and activist folks in Durham, I still believe they're going light on CGM at least in part (IMO to a significant degree) because she's a woman. I don't believe that I ever stated that the decision to not prosecute her was based solely on the fact that she's female. I believe that men get harsher treatment in general by LE and the justice system (call it 'gender profiling' if you will), that the data is there to back up my belief, and that this is simply an extreme example. If you want to accuse me of having a "big chip on my shoulder" because I recognize the effect identity politics has had on this, then fine.
Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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