Didn't consider the 4-4 event to be a lineup. A lineup is something you need a suspect in.
Admits he didn't know about General order 4077 (five fillers per suspect) before the 4-4 lineup.
Anyhow, at least 43 of the 46 people who were in the 4-4 lineup were innocent; therefore, they could be considered fillers.
Just looking for witnesses, anyway.
Did not consider anyone present in the house to be suspect--this more like a yearbook array.
Williamson is openly skeptical of Nifong on this point.
Also presses Nifong on exclusion of black player: if goal is to get witnesses, then why was he excluded?
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76 comments:
When is someone going to tell him to just SHUT-UP?
yeah..and i dont consider anyone on the Yankees to be a baseball player
Nifong is being incredibly dense as to the impact of this "fraudulent" line up. He had to assume the "guilty party", if there were any, would be in that array.
Williamson just made the same point. Does not believe Nifong.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Universe of suspects -- Incredible
WIlliamson is incredulous. Nifong is fighting him -- stupid, stupid.
there is no reason for cross examination
Riiiigggghttt!! None of them were suspects, but we used her id of Reade and Collin to indict them--but it wasn't a lineup!
Total idiot, complete liar!!
Williamson better nail him on this!! Nifong is trying to go back to his Math teachers days to give a lesson to the panel.
And...notice that he drags in the names of two other guys so that they are in the record of the proceedings!
duke2009mom
Is it okay for me to pity Nifong's lawyers?
If they were looking for witnesses and the African-American player was at the party why was he excluded from the 4-4 lineup?
"Did not consider anyone present in the house to be suspect"
Sounds like Detective Nifong had solved his case from the beginning. That's ok, he's par for law enforcement.
How often can he claim "he didn't know"? How can this tribunal sit there and not kick his well-fed-behind right out of the legal profession right this minute?
If he was just looking for witnesses, then why did he use this identification from an "array of photographs" as the *only* evidence to indict Reade and Collin?
Oh, then he states he didn't include Devin Sherwood's photo in this "array" because they knew he wasn't a suspect ... but didn't he just say he didn't see this "array" as a group of suspects. And if he was looking for "witnesses," why wasn't Devin a potential witness?
It's unbelieveable how questioning from his own attorney shows his guilt.
The really amazing thing is this: since he knew at the time that he didn't have any DNA or other physical evidence and was ONLY relying on her word, there is no possibility that any of the players were "fillers" since he was going to charge anyone that she picked out.
Indeed, it was a multiple choice question with no wrong answers
Is there a free Internet feed of this somewhere? I'm at work away from a TV, but could have Internet/audio. Any help in seeing/listening to this live is much appreciated!
wral.com has the feed. There on break now so it won't be back up until they return.
They recessed until 145pm eastern... www.wral.com.. works best in IE.
12.24: "Is it okay for me to pity Nifong's lawyers?"
No, don't go there. They're adults. Nobody forced them to take this scum-bag as a client.
Thanks for the link. I was wondering if they ever took breaks in Nifong's case based on how much KC is blogging/adding. When I served on a 1st degree murder trial, it was 6-hour days with 2 3-hour sessions -- they could hardly swear in a witness before the 3 hours were up (the judge also didn't start anything new if there were only 30-45 minutes left before the break). Glad to see this one is moving faster.
I just had to get a feed to hear the upcoming cross examination. I believe we are in for some good times.
Thanks again posters!
foxnews.com also has it on their front page. Same feed.
From a retired cop to 12:25: I hope others in this forum will join me in condemning 12:25's gratuitous attack on law enforcement. We in LE don't like the Gottliebs of the world any more than lawyers like the Nifongs. Cops spend their lives wrestling with the worst of society to ensure you a better life, so let's knock off the attacks. Thanks!
His lawyer is a babbling idiot... kind of like Himan. I watched him on fox news and Greta tore him a new one... he didn't know how to respond. Just taking it for publicity. Obviously he isn't very smart.
I'll tell you what struck me, amongst many things--when Nifong said he basically wanted to indict these boys before something "happened"--obviously referring to black racist violence. It is crystal clear to me that Nifong sacrificed these boys to appease black racists, when he should have brought charges of terrorist threats against those Black Panther thugs. For those of you who don't know--in post 9/11 America you can be arrested and charged with making a terrorist threat by simply threatening violence against anyone. My question is why Nifong wasn't aggressively protecting these boys whether he thought them guilty or not? This man is the most cowardly sniveling disgrace I have ever seen. I hope the Lacrosse boys make a fortune off this character assassination--I would strongly suggest Lin Wood out of Atlanta-he is a libel/slander lawyer and an absolute pit bull.
Nifong, at the very least, must lose his license and livelihood. This has been a lynching and we must send a message. This anti-racist hysteria needs to be ended now.
Now we have an answer to the following;
"Can God make a fool so big that even Mr. T can't pity him ?"
The answer, clearly, is yes.
12:38-
Agreed.
Rich (12:38), I have only the deepest respect for police officers. Every one I've come into contact with has been helpful and kind.
Once I accidentally hit speeddial for 911. I hung up, thining that I didn't want to bother the operator. I then called my dad to chat.
Meanwhile, the 911 operator called back, got a busy signal, and radioed the police to check on me. They insisted on speaking to me personally and stepped into our house. I apologized all over myself for taking their time, but they just said that they were happy that it was just a mistake and not a real domestic tragedy.
we all make premature judgments. Cops do it too.
They're playing the tape of CGM's identifying the players during the lunch break. What a liar!
Before this hearing, based on what I'd read, I thought losing his job and his law license, as well as massive civil liability that would impoverish him, would be adequate punishment.....
After reading these reports on this blog of what he's saying, I am convinced that only a very long jail sentence will adequately deter future offenders and punish Nifong for his perfidy: at least a decade, and perhaps 20 years would be about right. Right there with the people he put behind bars, so I guess he'd have to be in solitary for his safety.
He is just like Magnum. Never gives the same story twice.
KC,
I am sure you're hungry, but are you staying to watch the tape ?
BDay
Someone on CTV said they are going to put Levicy on
Keep exposing the lie that Nifong was only looking for witnesses.
Why not ask him "what would have been different about the case if CM had said "Smith & Jones" (or any of the 40+ others) instead of "Seligmann & Finnerty"? Is there any reason whatsoever to suspect Seligmann & Finnerty if not mentioned by Mangum? Would there have been any reason to not indict anyone mentioned by Mangum?
Say, passing lie detector? Nope.
Being on an ATM videotape as an alibi? Nope. No evidence whatsoever? Nope. The fact is, is that anyone in that "witness" line-up that crossed Mangum's lying lips, was going to be indicted.
And great point about Nifong excluding equally viable "witnesses" because he didn't think they were not equally "indictable."
"Mr. Nifong, let's again hear you explain why equally viable witnesses were excluded from your
lineup."
I'm going nuts trying to keep up with this as well as get anything else done.
No time to go through the comments as everyting is moving so quickly.
Poor, poor Mikey had a rough morning having to follow Reade. Was surprised that a commenting attorney on Court TV with Rikki Klieman--Michael Robbins--thinks Mikey has done a good job on the stand. Many seem to think he has come across as cool and confident.
What? !!!
IMO, Mikey has really nothing to lose here. Nowhere to go but up...like the old song.....Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.....
Mikey's supposed "confidence" is more along the lines of a psychotic or a sociopath. Someone who truly doesn't adhere to the cues of remorse.
Mike Nifong must be disbarred. Nothing less.
Debrah
NIFONG STATES ' WE GOT THE NTO ORDER FROM MS MANGUM's IDENTIFICATION OF READE AND COLLIN. ALSO MAKES NOTE THE NURSES REPORT SAID NO CONDOMS. NO MENTION THAT THE NTO CAME FROM NURSE TARA AND ANY COMMENT. WELL
"Also presses Nifong on exclusion of black player: if goal is to get witnesses, then why was he excluded?"
Bingo-not even Nifong's mother could fall for this BS.
This is all fill-in theater anyway, as I see it.
He lied in COURT to the COURT - that's it, game ove, its mootsville
- though it is all very very interesting and technically, it is "our day in court"
GLTA Duke Lax supporters, and "justice for all" !!
Nifong claims that "non players" may have been at the party.
Then he gets DNA evidence that inculpates non players.
Why didnt he persue this? Simple.
he knew a rape didnt occur at the party, but thought he could
bring the case,
indict people,
maybe get a plea,
in the worst case he foresaw
he would prosecute and lose.
Then he would blame the dancer
or blame the jury
Anyhow, at least 43 of the 46 people who were in the 4-4 lineup were innocent; therefore, they could be considered fillers.
Oh me oh my. I'm disappointed that I missed that comment by Nifong. Total BS.
Nifong's testimony seems to be aimed at damage control (limiting the severity of his punishment) rather than attempting to avoid a pronouncement of guilt. I see no other possible strategy in Nifong's defense. His owns attorney's direct examination seems more like a cross-examination in that it seems to be doing more harm than good. And the real cross is yet to come!
He knows his guilt, but it is better for him to be guilty due to incompetence as opposed to having criminal intent. He's playing the incompetence card and he wants that on the record. He is showing he lacked control of the case, his staff, the evidence, and the entire chain-of-command...thus, a chaotic office amid his election. Mix in some "I didnt understand the law.." and some "the dog ate my homework.." and , voila!, the ruling is guilt by incompetency. For if he had criminal intent, this would be worse in the imminent subsequent suits.
"I hope others in this forum will join me in condemning 12:25's gratuitous attack on law enforcement. We in LE don't like the Gottliebs of the world any more than lawyers like the Nifongs. Cops spend their lives wrestling with the worst of society to ensure you a better life, so let's knock off the attacks."
A question for both professions: Do you think you do enough to identify and remove such people?
If so, why is Gottlieb still employed?
If Nifong's media performances were so clearly and outrageously wrong as people are now saying why didn't the bar act against him immediately?!?!?!
The amount of egregious behavior that was allowed to occur before any action at all was taken makes it look to me as if the amount of bad behavior that will be tolerated as a normal part of doing business is disturbingly high.
Nice. "Nifong claims that "non players" may have been at the party." (He has to, to cover-up the lineup "railroad".)
Then he doesn't want any DNA report of any non-player! "Only matches to players."
"Then he gets DNA evidence that inculpates non players" and refuses to pursue it in any way. Nifong didn't want anyone charged except Duke lacross players.
I agree it seems he knew there was no rape. The other possibility is the conspiracy theory that Meehan suggested: perhaps there were Durham VIPs who had had sex with Mangum and there was no desire to go that route. Implausible, but more sane than what Nifong did do.
LOL @ "and some "the dog ate my homework.."
More like the dog ate, digested, expelled, and buried it in the yard. But too bad the cat dug it up and carried it into the house!!!
Yes Debrah, but as I said elsewhere today, 99% of people watching this on TV haven't been here for over a year, and they will absolutely think he is poised,
humble, forthcoming.....
Sad but true. People here think he looks honest on TV.....
Are there any black people at the hearing? Where is the NC NAACP? Where are the preachers? Where are Jesse and Al? (My question has nothing to do with Victoria Peterson)
I'm not completely sure, but I agree that the best explanation is that Nifong knew there was no rape and no probable cause. As he said, he knew he was f***ed, and therefore stopped investigating. No desire to check alibis; no desire to look for non-players; no desire to pursue multiple non-player DNA.
JLS says...,
Wow this is one day I am sorry I have summer classes to teach. [Heck if I were taking them I might have skipped.]
Let's see:
1. I think the fillers are to be KNOWN actual innocent people. I hope on cross Nifong is asked which of the fillers he KNEW were innocent.
2. I hope on cross Nifong is asked if the desire to indict someone before something happens is less noble is you are a person who has helped inflame racial passions.
3. I hope Nifong is asked on cross if someone who can not on the spot understand they are violating the cannons of ethics should retain their license to be an attorney?
4. I hope Nifong is asked on cross what Professor Johnson brought up about if Nifong was not interested in mixtures why he indicted Dave Evans based on a mixture that was not enough markers for the SBI to call it a match?
5. I hope Nifong is asked on cross if he thinks bar hearing are important enough that someone should be sure if they were at a meeting or not before claiming the were not in response to charges by the NC BAR?
I can think of many many others. I hope the Bar rakes him over the coals in cross.
1:14
I agree, but it won't work. Law 101 is ethics, and the Bar Panel will see right through this.
The cross will re-hammer his pre-trial comments, showing they were not simply a nieve prosecutor with little media experience, but inflammatory comments designed to condemn the lacrosse team.
The cross will hammer home his knowledge of DNA results and his pathetic attempts to disguise them or not report them.
The cross will wonder why, in the face of countless different stories by the accuser, he did not interview her.
The cross will excoriate him on Linwood Wilson and the dropping of only the rape charges.
The cross will also fry him on the arrest of the cab driver. I am betting he tries to say this was all DPD and Wilsons doing without his knowledge.
I would love to ask him why he smirked at the "Dead Man walking: comment. Perhaps he can say he had gas.
Then of course, there are the written lies to the board and lies to the court. And yes, the exclusion of the black player from the so called witness search line-up looks really bad !!
BDay MD
Did I miss anything about when the defense thinks they'll finish up and when the Bar will get him? I recall Freedman saying he would only need about half a day today, but that was yesterday and it is apparently going longer. No way
Bar can put in the 1000 cuts they will have before this evening, is there?
Good point 1:21. Where is the NAACP case monitor now? He said he wanted a trial so the facts would come out. This is the FIRST trial relating to this case. Of course, after the AG, NC Bar, and City of Durham finish up their investigations about the hoax, I'd bet we will see at least a few more trials.
JLS says
re: anon 1:22
I agree the only reason to quit investigating is that you know no evidence for the indictment you need to win the primary can possibly exist since no rape happened and thus any evidence you find would harm you desire to indict and win the primary.
All right, enough of this already! When will the phase I portion conclude with the determination of guilt? Is that today, or does it go into next week?
Agree with many posters, where my ire is raised with every new revelation. Nifong is sub-humanity at its very worst!
If he doesn't do time, then Paris Hilton shouldn't either. Put the bum in jail!
Is a state bar finding entitled to collateral estoppel effect in a civil cae? In other words, can the young men use the findings of the state bar to establish liability by nifong w/o having to do anything else?
When he said that he knew from the SBI
results that this was a non-ejaculatory
event, why did he not question Magnum
as to the incredibly huge inconsistency
with her earlier story?
Why did he still believe her?
Obvious questions but they need to be
asked in a forceful way.
JLS says....
anon 1:29
Guilt will be determined at the end of phase I, probably this evenning. Phase II will be tommorrow. By Saturday night Nifong will not longer have a license to practice law in NC.
TO 1:21PM--
Yes, I recall reading your post and that's probably quite accurate; however, if they had only watched a few shows on Fox once and a while they would have gotten a more balanced story.
Sadly, the NYTImes and other MSM covered the whole story with the PC take on everything.
BTW, it was very funny seeing Rufus Edmisten--a former NC Attorney General--a few minutes ago on Court TV. He seems to care very little for Mikey.
Debrah
1:31 -- Do you or anyone else know if disbarrment disqualifies him from continuing to serve as DA? I assume it would, but am just checking.
Ralph (1:16),
Your question as it applies to LE personnel is complicated by your use of 'do "YOU" do enough'; who is the "you"? I'll presume you mean the profession in its entirety. Every LE agency is quite different (local/state/federal, rural/urban, large/small), and the degree to which they police themselves is driven almost entirely by the organizations culture, which is determined by the quality of leadership, starting from the city council, to the city administrator/mayor, to the head of public safety, to the police chief. Over the course of my career, most departments have become more open, more transparent, more customer focussed, and more receptive to scrutiny and feedback. Durham is an apparently an example of the way police departments used to routinely operate- closed, insulated, and protective of their own. The fact that they are even considering hiring Deputy Chief Hodge only demonstrates this more clearly. Is there still a culture of protectiveness? Sure, we, like any profession, try to look out for our own, but remember, we are normally faced day in and day out with lying, criminal scumbags, and even the best can sometimes get it wrong, despite our best efforts.
Remember that bad cops, like any profession, are in the tiny minority, and the vast majority are out there putting their lives on the line every day so that we can all live a high quality of life. Thanks for asking.
JLS says....,
re: micheal
When he said that he knew from the SBI
results that this was a non-ejaculatory
event, why did he not question Magnum
as to the incredibly huge inconsistency
with her earlier story?
Why did he still believe her?
There are two reenforcing answers to this:
1. He needed to believe her to indict and win the primary.
2. The rape-Nazi paradigm or meta narrative is that woman don't lie about being raped. Thus they NEVER lie about actually being raped even if they get confused about detail like when, where, how etc. An as a member of a particular political policy and as someone with a spouse who works as a victims advocate, Nifong was programed to accept this particularly when it was in his self interes.
I believe he can carry on as DA even if disbarred (amazingly). But, I think a judge can remove him from office pending Beth Brewers filing (I think ?)
It was fun to see KC being interviewed al fresco in his mufti.
He looked older than in previous ones. Suppose he's been working 24/7.
The interview was a glowing one. KC might become a famous wordsmith very soon!
Debrah
1:29
At least the only life Paris Hilton has ruined is her own.
One of the good things about this hearing is that the LAX players get their reputations back to some extent.
to ralph phelan: law enforcement officials and lawyers are held to be "officers of the court" and thus their actions are presumed to be proper, meaning that they always get the benefit of the doubt.
you wrote:
"The amount of egregious behavior that was allowed to occur before any action at all was taken makes it look to me as if the amount of bad behavior that will be tolerated as a normal part of doing business is disturbingly high."
from someone who is a member of the bar, I have to agree that your statement is unfortunately true. In fact a lot more true than most people realize.
JLS says....,
re: Rich
I have students every summer who fail principles of economics in the spring, take it again with me in the summer, do a better job and still fail. Saying police forced do a better job is not the same a being good enough at fighting criminals rather than becoming criminals.
In a day in age of the Atlanta police breaking in and killing an 80 something old woman, police in NC shooting through a door and killing an unarmed college student, this case and many more examples, do the police do enough to combat criminals without breaking the law.
Rich:
Most of the cops I've dealt with have been great professionals. On the other hand, I a lying sadistic borderline psychopath from my high school became a cop, and so far as I know still is one (unless he's retired.)
If you had a colleague like Gottlieb, if you were aware of something like the arrest of Moezeldin Elmostafa to punish him for giving the wrong anser, what would you do about it?
As a civilian, when the lights start flashing behind me for me to pull over, how am I supposed to estimate the probability that it's someone like you pulling me over rather than a Gottlieb?
On the black player not being in the lineup - why not just say "good greif - he is the only black player - we already knew who he was, that he was there and that he would be a potential witness. No need to ask again" or some similar statement
IMO, Bill Anderson and Bob Wilson--the former newspaper editor--should write a book on this from a local perspective.
Both are excellent writers--low key "just the facts" types--and each could add depth to this story in terms of all the players in the hoax as it relates to people in Durham and the history of the place.
Anderson has done lots of work on similar cases of injustice and Bob Wilson knows everything about the Triangle.
They should think about it.
Debrah
Mikey, if I were you I would have started getting rid of assets as fast as possible and as long ago as possible. Your prosecutorial immunity will be breached and you will be fair game to the civil liabilities that come with lying, obstructing justice, violating civil rights, and infliction of harm to innocent individuals.
Go ahead, write that book, as the proceeds from such can go to all the people you tried to f*** over.
By the way, I am curious, why did you not pursue charges against the people in court who made death threats to the accused, Crystal Magnum for lying, the other males who deposited evidence in the accuser, the creators of the vigilante poster, the hate crimes that occured outside the house (I belive calling for someone to be castrated might fall into the hate crime category) ???
You Mr. Nifong, are a miserable human being whose lack of compassion and caring alone should disqualify you from being a DA, much less all the wrongs you propegated.
BDay
1:45..
good defense, my next question would then be if Mr. Nifong takes that route, is "Did you interview the one black player?"
Any assets he off-loaded in the last year are still game. He can't transer them with immunity at this point, or even back to the beginning of case.
did Nifong say the GJ indictments were made on Mangum identifing Reade and Colin?
LOL.
The line up wasn't a line up but was to get witnesses. But he excludes the black player who was at the party. OOPS.
He..did not consider anyone present in the house to be suspect--this more like a yearbook array.
If he did not consider anyone present in the house to be a suspect, WHO DID HE THINK RAPED HER? Another set of lacrosse players that beamed in from outerspace?
I knew he would lie on the stand a nd get caught. What an idiot.
If he already knows the lacrosse team was at the party, then he ALREADY HAS THE WITNESS LIST, what does he need Mangum to ID 'witnesses' for since she has already said, well , once or twice that she was alone in the bathroom with the imaginary rapists.
This is so tranparently nonsensical it sounds like something Crystal made up herself.
No wonder Nifong wasn't bothered by her multiple, mutually exclusive stories, he does it himself.
tick....tick....tick....tick
White man speak with forked tongue!
Keep bailing Mikey, the ship's only half full, er, sunk!
What size jumpsuit do you wear?
I was sitting in an commerical airplane on the runway in Atlanta last week when my cell phone rang. It was a student from Duke, asking if I would contribute once again to the university as an alum. I said, "no thank you, not until Brodhead leaves, and maybe not then." I felt a bit of guilt at my sudden lack of generosity, but reading this I see that "we didn't know" is a really lame excuse by the so-called administration of Duke University.
Anyhow, at least 43 of the 46 people who were in the 4-4 lineup were innocent.
Is this guy lying or stupid? If he knew for sure the innocence of the 43, this might make some sense.
Sorry to be off topic, but wanted to answer JLS (1:40) and Ralph (1:42).
JLS: "Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes."
Have you ever asked your local LE agency to do a ride along? Most offer them; try to do it on a Saturday night. Ask the cop with whom you ride along to then sit in on one of your "principles of economics" classes, and then compare notes to see which of your professions is the more stressful, which could we do without for any period of time, and which contributes the most to the our quality of life on a day to day basis.
Your examples of police excess don't hold up. My Google search for "Atlanta+police+80 year old+shot+killed" yielded some websites with less than a balanced view (theagitator.com, reason.com, and stopthedrugwar.org) which reported on a drug raid where no shots were fired and no one killed.
My search for the NC shooting of an "unarmed college student" came up w/ a case of a Deputy Sheriff who was terminated and brought up on murder charges for a shooting while executing a search warrant at the home of individuals who subsequently pled guilty to robbery. By the accounts I read, this shooting occurred when the deputy heard what he thought we gunshots. A tragedy, no doubt, but obviously not a premeditated or intentional act, nor was it "breaking the law".
Ralph: Glad to hear most of your experience with cops has been positive, and regret hearing someone you knew to be a bad guy in HS went into law enforcement. But that one person proves what, exactly?
As to your first question, it would presume being on the job in Durham. It is my understanding this was a legally executed warrant, solely to harass Elmostafa. Is it right? No, but tell me a sector of society where all is truth and fair and right. On the second one, 99% of traffic stops are routine procedures based on a violation of the law and result in either a warning or a summons. Most are served by polite, professional officers whose actions are being recorded by their dash mounted videocams. Your treatment will largely depend on you passing the "attitude test"; for training, refer to Chris Rock's "how to not get your ass kicked by the police"; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fhq0NDkUViQ
Court TV is saying that this would never have happened if defendants were black
they seem to be giving Nifong kudos for taking the case so seriously
there are no "journalists" just idiots talking on tv
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