Gottlieb and Soucie, after meeting with Nifong, report that Nifong said he wanted to go ahead with indictments. Himan: "With what?"
Nifong brought up inconsistencies in Mangum's stories. He made the comment, "You know we're fucked."
Meehan at May 12 meeting: "He had a final report ready that day."
On ride back to Durham, Nifong says that the fingernails evidence can be used to indict Dave Evans. Nifong was the person who made this decision.
"Sgt. Gottlieb advised me that before we were going to do anything," Nifong wanted to be advised and had to go through Nifong.
Meets individually with Nifong to discuss his concerns with decision to go ahead with indictments. Nifong: "If you believe her story in one part, you've got to believe her story in another part."
No advance notice that Linwood Wilson would interview Crystal Mangum. "Shocked" and "a little upset" that he was not notified of the interview. Finds out about the interview the next day, between 11.15am-11.30am--just before rape charges were dropped.
Had a conversation with Linwood Wilson just after reading notes of Wilson's interview. Said that the Wilson-Mangum new version of events "didn't make any sense."
Agreed with decision to dismiss charges: "From the interviews, it was clear she was lying."
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183 comments:
I have to point out that rationale 'all or nothing' runs totally counter to what juries are told in trials.
They are told that they can believe all, part or none of a witnesses statement, it also beggars belief that any police officer or district attorney would have such a black/white view of ANY persons' statement...nothing can be partially true, a mistake or a lie.
Don't witnesses and even victims OFTEN lie in criminal cases?
How in the world did this joker ever pass the bar let alone become DA??
Wow. Get out your checkbook in preparation for the civil lawsuits, Durham, cause "you're f*cked" now too!
JLS says....,
The bombshell is that at the first review of the case with the detective Nifong KNEW, "WE F'ed." Yet he sought indictments.
JLS says....,
Moving on to the arrest of the cab driver.
This also makes the Durham Police Department's 'report' look even stupider, clumsier and flimsier than it did before, and who thought that was possible.
Reade's alibi stuff coming up. Himan talking about picking Elmostafa up.
Himan knew the reason why he was picking up Elmostafa.
Nifong told Himan to issue a subpoena the same day the Seligmann Notice of Alibi defense was filed.
Add Himan to your list of heroes.
It's amazing what putting someone under oath does.
I wonder what those people who actually voted for this joker must now think?
While I am loving this personally, isn't a lot of this also pretty irrelevant to the charges against Nifong?
What does the cab driver really have to do with the specific ethics violations related to media and DNA? He is not charged w/witness intimidation [yet]
Why, if I didn't know better, I might think the North Carolina State Bar was getting this information on the record to help out in future lawsuits:)
JLS says....,
re: anon 5:13
Sadly many of the people who voted for Nifong will feel this was just unfortunately a failed attempt to get on extra mark on their side of the racial score board.
JLS says...,
Wilson, ie Nifong's office, order the cab driver picked up.
Himan then speaks to Nifong after talking to Elmostafa but Himan knows that Reade wasn't there at the time of the non-rape.
Nifong walked out of the room.
Wilson had a warrant and Wilson wanted to know if Nifong wanted Elmostafa picked up on the warrant (?). Warrant was two or three years old. Wilson found the old warrant.
Am I crazy or didn't Nifong and the DPD variously claim they never had the alibi information because the defense wouldnt' cooperate?
Wouldn't filing an NOTICE OF ALIBI DEFENSE have clued them in?
I really hope this is an isolated case of corruption and that public officials all across the country don't feel at liberty to lie in public, repeatedly, when the facts specifically contradict them and after they have been formally accused of lying and other violations? WTF?
Can't wait to hear how after all this info is in the record on the case that Wilson is able to come up with the December 20th story from CGM.
That should be a doosey.
Please tell me that Linwood Wilson will sing in front of this panel in the coming days.
Re: 05:14:00PM
The relevance is that Nifong is trying to prop up his dying case by witness intimidation against the cab driver.
So dear little Himan, you said we didn't know he was there, we didn't have any DNA, and you told Nifong "With What?"
So why didn't you tell the Grand Jury this? Because only you & Gottlieb were the only witnesses before the Grand Jury!
JLS says ....,
Wilson told Himan Nifong wanted to be informed when the cabbie was picked up on the warrant.
JLS says....,
Skipping forward to December on Wilson.
Yeah, I know that, but its outside the scope of the hearing, he isn't charged with witness intimidation, yes, he did attempt to intimidate this witness and then falsely charge him with a crime he knew he was innocent of in order to discredit him, BUT, he isn't charged with that particular violation or crime at this time.
How is it possible these indictments were secured from a Grand Jury Inv. Himan?
Wilson shocked and upset that Wilson did the December Mangum interview on his own.
Anonymous 5:05 asked: "Don't witnesses and even victims OFTEN lie in criminal cases?"
You're forgetting the training that Nifong received from the feminists that hammers-home the message that "women never lie about rape." That Cy Gurney is a GAL, which is a profession notoriously associated with radical feminists, probably made matters worse vis-a-vis this tendency of Nifong to take CGM at her word, without question. He not only was indoctrinated in the feminist dogma at work, he got it at home as well.
In light of this his response was utterly predictable, which is why IMHO this sort of "training" should be illegal.
Trinity '85,
In my mind, Himan would have been a hero if he had spoken up in June 2006, not 2007. I appreciate him telling the truth now, but he let Nifong indict and try to falsely prosecute these three men. Who knows how many other people have been falsely prosecuted by these people in Durham who appear to only speak the truth if they are under oath?
This stuff is going to nail Nifong against the Charges of making inflamtory statements.
They are showing what was going behind the scenes, behind closed doors. They are showing that Nifong knew or should have known that he had no case.
They are creating a timelibne of the investigation.
They can then go abck against that timeline and present the public remarks. In other words, all of this stuff is creating context during which the inflamtory remarks were made.
They are taking away Nifong's honest mistake excuse.
Wilson told Himan Nifong wanted to be informed when the cabbie was picked up on the warrant.
-----------------------
Uh oh.
Didn't they claim it was all separate...arresting the driver on the warrant had nothing to do w/the lacrosse case.
Its going to be hard to make a future civil jury believe that now that Himan is in record saying the DA wanted to be informed of the arrest of the cab driver for a 3 year old misdemeanor that had nothing to do with the rape case in which he was an alibi witness.
Hilarious.
Police car to pick up VP?
JLS says ...,
Are they coming to take away Peterson????
I agree he is truly f*cked now, but his initial comment shows he was on her side from the beginning. Don't prosecutors have a duty to the truth, as opposed to solely a duty to the one alleging the crime? It is the use of the word "we" in that statement -- not -- this case is f*cked, or her story is f*cked, or even How many did she f*ck? No he says We are f*cked. He's right now.
5:21
No one except the woman hating men's rights people ever say that 'women NEVER lie about rape' you will never find a rape advocate anywhere who says no woman has ever lied about rape, that is a myth used to trash and bash rape advocates and rape victims. What they will tell you and its backed up by much data is that women rarely lie about rape.
But that is irrelevant, it is idiotc and beyond belief for anyone to believe that a woman who couldnt ID her 'attackers' until given a no wrong answer line up couldn't possibly be wrong about any of them. Only an idiot, a liar would say such a thing.
JLS says...,
re: dukex4
That is why I think that profane statement is THE bombshell today so far.
Anonymous said...
Wow. Get out your checkbook in preparation for the civil lawsuits, Durham, cause "you're f*cked" now too!
Jun 12, 2007 5:09:00 PM
I think we've just found Durham's new municipal motto. :)
OMG!!
Himan is saying under oath that Wilson's version 5.8 of Mangum's statement didn't even make sense! HAHAH This is too funny.
How is Mikey taking this testimony?
Someone has to post a link of Nofing flipping off the defense lawyer -- my wife doesn't believe me, plus we both really want to see it!
Talking about January and the talk of condoms being used. Despite no indication that they were used in the past.
And next Nifong talks to Mangum.
Linwood Wilson better leave town before he gets indicted for witness tampering, I would say after Himan's testimony if NC doens't charge him, the Feds will.
Nifong couldn't trust the cops to retailer the nuts statement so he sent Wilson instead. This is better than a bad detective story.
Nifong was sitting upright in his chair flipping his nose with his index finger. It's hard to paint a picture in words. He looked concerned.
JLS says....
Himan says on 11 Jan. Nifong and Ms. Clack met with Mangum and kicked Wilson and him out of the meeting.
To see Nifong flipping the bird, go to:
http://liestoppers.blogspot.com/
Who is Ms. Clack?
Himan validating the work of the special prosecutors as he was there.
He agreed with the decision to dismiss. Himan said that she was always lieing at the interviews!
I always hoped the DPD would turn on Mike and tell the truth, glad to see at least Himan is doing it...wonder what Gottlieb will have to say, not sure he can tell the truth at this point, since the memory report is an obvious fabrication, he will have to stick to his story or face charges of obstruction of justice and evidence and witness tampering.
That's it! 9:00 AM tomorrow.
He agreed with the decision to dismiss. Himan said that she was always lieing at the interviews!
------------------------
Good lord. Again, didn't Patrick Baker claim that the police never knew of any inconsistencies or lies? Let's not forget Wilson publicly lying to the press and saying that Mangum never changed her story....only to have Joe Cheshire cite the exact pages in discovery where her many story changes could be found.
The facts are so bad its funny. He is never going to recover from Himan's testimony.
And this guy is going to work tomorrow as District Attorney?????
Gottleib will just say he wrote it as he heard it. That isn't lying or obstruction.??
He didn't just agree with the AG's decision to dissmiss, he agreed with the conclusions, specifically that no sexual assault occured.
Yeah, Gottleib has to stick to his story, and so does Wilson.
Gottlieb can't deny the memory report, even though we know it is all made up to jive with the evidence Nifong wanted. This is what I mean about 'innocent until proven guilty' No one in their right mind belives that Gottleib's memory report is the truth, however it is impossible to prove it isn't what Mangum said or what he 'heard' and so it is not provable beyond a reasonable doubt even though, clearly, he IS guilty of evidence/witness tampering and obstruction of justice. In my opinion.
Himan is no hero. Always remember that he KNEW it was a frame and still went along. He should be in jail. Please don't tell me he was just a low ranking guy trying to keep his job or any other bullcrap excuse. He's a criminal.
I wonder if she knows she's lying or if she is too crazy and believes her stories as she tells them...a true sociopath, the type that can pass lie detector tests.
5:48
He isn't a criminal, he didn't make up any false evidence, he didn't intimdate any witnesses, he may not be the total 'hero' stand up guy who went public with his doubts but he should NOT be lumped in with Gottlieb and Wilson and Nifong. That isn't fair.
He could be up on the stand saying he believed her along along, that she was a confused black girl and though it was a weak case he always believed she was raped, he could be pleading memory loss about the dates of meetings and what was said. He isn't.
Let's give credit where credit is due, Himan's testimony is burrying Nifong here.
Nifong is a dinosaur--he's history! The more this man speaks the more he indicts himself.
Keep cracking those coconuts KC
Evan
A hero would have picked up the phone on April 16th 2006 (the day before indictments were handed down) and called Brad Bannon, Joe Cheshire, Jim Cooney, Roy Cooper's office, Steve Chalmers, anybody.
He could have called a press conference, secretly contacted Joe Neff or a reporter and become this case's Deep Throat.
There were a million things he could have done before things got out of hand to put the breaks on this. He didn't. Now he is only covering his ass and only because he is under oath.
He's no hero, he's a coward who got caught and is saving his own ass.
mb 5:21 said...
...this sort of "training" should be illegal.
::
Any rape and sexual assault training for officers of the law should follow a curriculum approved by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and The U.S. Department of Justice.
No sermonizers from the extreme right or the extreme left should be allowed.
Those curricula are readily available and the people in Durham and at Duke know that.
::
GP
What they will tell you and its backed up by much data is that women rarely lie about rape.
And is this data backed up with sufficient third-party statements so that we can distinguish regret from rape?
Himan is a rat. Pure and simple. He is bailing on a sinking ship; he knows the jig is up.
It had to be obvious to all observers that the cops would bail on Nifong. He is not likeable and he has accused the cops of screwing up. What makes this all so farcical is that the problems with the investigation were so well-known that any half-way competent questioner could easily ask hard questions. I mean, to pick but one example, how in the world were they going to explain away Seligmann's alibi or the treatment of Elmostafa? How? There just is no explanation. On top of that, you have the bogus line-ups, the inconsistent stories and the utter lack of DNA. How can the "full speed ahead" indictment fly? It's not like this was hidden--it was all in plain sight. All of it. Any questioning was going to knock down this house of cards. That's why the AG was so incredulous here?
Those who don't think rape is a real problem will never believe otherwise, no amount of data, anecdotes, studies or surveys will convince the person who believes that women lie about rape because they 'regret' sex. It is an absurd notion that infantilizes women, turning them into psychopaths willing to do anything, go through any humiliation in order to 'get' the guy that they 'regret' having sex with. THe idea that this behavior is widespread is nonsensical on its face.
Himan's statements about the case are on record, that he raised doubts throughout unless you think he's lying now on the stand.
He may not have done all he should have or could have but he is not in the same category as Gottlieb and Wilson.
What will be interesting is what Levicy has to say...did she offer up the story change that Mangum 'wasn't sure' about no condoms and ejaculation in the mouth or will she say Nifong suggested it to her.
This all is sending my mind spinning. For all the crazy pieces of this puzzle to be reviewed one by one like this is just too much for me. Why on earth did they do this to these guys? I just keep thinking it had to do with a deep hatred of Duke. What a waste...
Anonymous 5:29 No one except the woman hating men's rights people ever say that 'women NEVER lie about rape' you will never find a rape advocate anywhere who says no woman has ever lied about rape, that is a myth used to trash and bash rape advocates and rape victims. What they will tell you and its backed up by much data is that women rarely lie about rape.
You put out some of the same bogus crap that the feminists do. Instead of signing on to the concocted feminist stat that a female cop 30 years ago once said to a feminist that she personally estimated under 1% of rape accusers are liars, you say "women rarely lie about rape".
The studies show that rape reports as lies rank right up there with "But Officer, I wasn't speeding!
6% to 42% of rape accusations in studies are false. More studies are needed. The most recent, at military academies, are not great because they have elite high performers quite unlike the average woman, or the low class Crystal Mangum type where actual rape rate is the highest. Not reflective of society, but the AF one showed 40% were lies, and worse, they let some of the false accusers stay on.
More study is needed. A few criminologists say it is impeative that DOJ fund a study - long overdue....but they, from the data so far and experience...expect the false accusation rate of charges formally made to an official, employer, law enforcement to be around 15%...with "day after regret", charges arising from BF breakup/fight ---weeded out before that 15% stat.
In any case, false accusations of rape are not rare, and are the most common of any felony crime.
Anonymous 5:29 No one except the woman hating men's rights people ever say that 'women NEVER lie about rape' you will never find a rape advocate anywhere who says no woman has ever lied about rape, that is a myth used to trash and bash rape advocates and rape victims. What they will tell you and its backed up by much data is that women rarely lie about rape.
You put out some of the same bogus crap that the feminists do. Instead of signing on to the concocted feminist stat that a female cop 30 years ago once said to a feminist that she personally estimated under 1% of rape accusers are liars, you say "women rarely lie about rape".
The studies show that rape reports as lies rank right up there with "But Officer, I wasn't speeding!
6% to 42% of rape accusations in studies are false. More studies are needed. The most recent, at military academies, are not great because they have elite high performers quite unlike the average woman, or the low class Crystal Mangum type where actual rape rate is the highest. Not reflective of society, but the AF one showed 40% were lies, and worse, they let some of the false accusers stay on.
More study is needed. A few criminologists say it is impeative that DOJ fund a study - long overdue....but they, from the data so far and experience...expect the false accusation rate of charges formally made to an official, employer, law enforcement to be around 15%...with "day after regret", charges arising from BF breakup/fight ---weeded out before that 15% stat.
In any case, false accusations of rape are not rare, and are the most common of any felony crime.
Anonymous 5:29 No one except the woman hating men's rights people ever say that 'women NEVER lie about rape' you will never find a rape advocate anywhere who says no woman has ever lied about rape, that is a myth used to trash and bash rape advocates and rape victims. What they will tell you and its backed up by much data is that women rarely lie about rape.
You put out some of the same bogus crap that the feminists do. Instead of signing on to the concocted feminist stat that a female cop 30 years ago once said to a feminist that she personally estimated under 1% of rape accusers are liars, you say "women rarely lie about rape".
The studies show that rape reports as lies rank right up there with "But Officer, I wasn't speeding!
6% to 42% of rape accusations in studies are false. More studies are needed. The most recent, at military academies, are not great because they have elite high performers quite unlike the average woman, or the low class Crystal Mangum type where actual rape rate is the highest. Not reflective of society, but the AF one showed 40% were lies, and worse, they let some of the false accusers stay on.
More study is needed. A few criminologists say it is impeative that DOJ fund a study - long overdue....but they, from the data so far and experience...expect the false accusation rate of charges formally made to an official, employer, law enforcement to be around 15%...with "day after regret", charges arising from BF breakup/fight ---weeded out before that 15% stat.
In any case, false accusations of rape are not rare, and are the most common of any felony crime.
5:50--
I completely agree. We don't have to call Himan a "hero," but he is telling the truth now (at, possibly, some career risk to himself), and there's a lot of room between "hero" and "criminal." It sounds like he at least tried to do the right thing internally, and there's no evidence at this point that he personally engaged in any unethical or illegal behavior (with the possible exception of getting into the Duke dorms by following a student's card swipe--which the Duke administration essentially approved retroactively, and which we now know was in an effort to fend off bogus indictments rather than bolster them).
We're not here to debate the statistics of rape in the US. We're talking about this (alleged) rape. This one was a lie. That's all that matters here on this blog.
Please go debate rape stats somewhere else.
Tellling the truth at some risk to himself now? He is under oath. He runs a far greater risk by nort telling the truth now than by telling it.
He is no hero for telling us all this at the end of the road under oath where he has been forced to.
Wow. Wow. Wow.
Anyone taking bets that Nifong pulls a Duran--"No mas", "no mas"
I found Officer Himan to be credible with one exception. I am not really sure I believe he went to the Duke U. dorms in his heroes search for exculpatory evidence. There was already more than enough exculpatory evidence available to block an indictment. I do have some suspicion to believe lawyers would not talk to him, becasue by then the excellent defense lawyers had figured out this was a conspiracy and they were allowing the DA and the DPD to basically shoot themselves. I believe Himan and Gottlieb (and Nifong) were a bit desperate at that point, and were looking for anything to further the strength of the indictment. If Nifong knew the case was f***d, then you can bet so did the defense lawyers, and they were simply letting those clowns F themsleves more.
BDay MD
Cedarford,
You are a liar!
But I agree w/the other poster, this is not the time or the thread to debate rape statistics.
Please do NOT trot out the same old song and dance study from 30 years ago and the same false quote from Fairstein and the same out of context DOD stats that you always do.
From FONGED to FU*KED in 6.9 hours!!! All I can say is WOW!
6:08
I agree, by the time Himan was asking about the alibi info. the defense had already met w/Nifong who totally blew them off, so they knew it was better to keep the details to themselves in order to prevent more evidence and witness tampering.
That's why they never gave the specifics on Finnerty's alibi until the AG got involved...they couldn't trust the police not to change up their story again.
I assume 5:57 Anon is the same woman's rape victim advocate as wrote at 5:29, but it is OT and I don't want to derail the thread debating her.
Suffice it to say she is full of shit, anyone can check on her claims.
Moving on to Himan:
"We are f*cked!!" may not have the same effect on seasoned lawyers as on a jury...but will have a different, harder effect in the area of professional conduct. A DA effectively commenting he had no evidence to indict, overriding the investigating detective's concerns...concealing the full DNA report results..evidently trying to shake a witness's testimony...elected to duck the evidentiary hearing that would show others and defendents counsel "how f*cked we are" and decided to manipulate a grand jury instead to indict.
He is so toast!
Himan: "I believed she was lying and told the DA so, told my superiors, then Nifong overrode them!"
Nifong is so toast!
I can't wait for "women rarely lie about rape, rape is about power, and a really good nurse such as myself doesn't need actual medical evidence to play both doctor diagnosing and righteous SANE expert", Levicy.
Actually, I can't wait for her shredding on cross, and her description of what was said at the covert meetings she and SANE Supervisor "Mother Fire God" celebrator Theresa Arico had with Mikey Nifong...
If you hear moaning during her testimony, it might not be from Nifong. It might be from DUMC litigation counsel...
To Wendy Murphy......Step in my office, You F***in FIRED!!!!
RE: 6:09
At least Cedarford isn't commenting as "anonymous"
says David Jay
Spectator Removed From Nifong Ethics Proceedings
Posted: Today at 4:05 p.m.
Updated: Today at 4:08 p.m.
Raleigh — Proceedings were delayed briefly Tuesday afternoon in the ethics trial of Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong when security officers had to remove a woman from the court.
Victoria Peterson, who says she is a political activist in Durham, has loudly supported Nifong over the past year, having publicly said the district attorney has been treated unfairly because he tried to help a black woman.
According to sources in the courtroom, Maryellen Finnerty, the mother of Collin Finnerty, one of three men indicted and charged in the Duke lacrosse case, felt threatened when Peterson started speaking loudly.
Spectator Removed From Nifong Ethics Proceedings
Oooops, sorry all, for the 6:04 triple post!
My Browser "propellor" wasn't turning and I thought I missed a double click.
Bad, bad Browser! (kicking it like kicking a poor dog for me not just waiting to see if the 1st post went through. Not cruel to kick the Browser though...)
Holy Smokes!! What were these jackasses thinking!!! Not Wonderland at all....more like Bizzarro World from the Superman comics...
Sweetmick says: Dear Melanie Sill---right under your F*cking Ampersand that took a committee to design, add "We are F*cked".
6:12
yes, thank you. It simply does not seem credible that he went to the dorms looking for this mystery exculpatory evidence. I believe he was hoping to find incriminating evidence to ally his guilt about this going to the Grand Jury, or because Gottlieb pressured him to do so. The DA and the DPD were already in a losing position, the players were lawyered up, the lawyers were no longer providing details to the police to allow witness tampering and/or story changing, the players knew to keep their mouth's shut. Let's face it, the DPD leadership was not stupid, they had to know if they indicted knowingly innocent people, then shit would come back and bite them in the butt, and it was becoming apparent even then that the defense was like an angry US marine force, ready to launch a crippling strike to a poorly planned attack.
BDay
6:28
I agree, Himan wasn't doing it for altruistic reasons so he could 'save' Seligman, he was trying/hoping to find something that would either help the case or be so clear cut that Nifong wouldn't indict...doubtful whether he cared which way it would go...but it was unlikely he was doing it out of the goodness of his heart and his belief Seligman was being railroaded.
I still give him many props for his testimony today, it undercuts so much of what has been said by Nifong, Patrick Baker and Chalmers about how the DPD just didn't know....they didn't have the evidence the case was a fraud, etc. etc.
Clearly, they all knew it was fraud from MARCH, some of them, like Himan registered some objections and tried to at least keep to police procedure, and some of them, like Gottlied and Wilson went off the rails into criminal activity to prop it up.
"You know we're fucked."
-Mike Nifong
Was that at today's hearing ? - lol
No one on the DPD is a hero. They all went along willingly as participants in the frame. The best you can say about them is that they were just following orders, and now they are jumping ship like rats.
I would think that the penalties for conspiracy to send innocent people to prison would be staggering. Perjury alone is very big.
JLS say....,
On Himan, he is certainly just putting lipstick on a pig of an investigation. He shaded or tried to shade his testimony in serveral ways
1. His attempt to interview represented suspects on the Duke campus.
2. His not being sure which meeting the unaccounted for DNA was discussed.
3. His picking up of the cabbie.
Still in his defense he was a rookie detective likely looking to his seniors for how to behave in his job of a few months. So I will cut him some slack for that.
6:28
I concur. Officer Himan's testimony did a lot to damage Mr. Nifong today. I was particulary impressed with the prosecutor when he got the officer to "remember" that Meehan must have told them of non Lacrosse male DNA existence at the April 10 meeting. He did this by showing the officer had gone after additional male DNA samples on April 12.
This basically shows Mr. Nifong knew that non Lacrosse player male DNA was present on the whore BEFORE he went for the indictments.
Officer Himan looks somewhat young. I do believe he had some objections to the case moving forward as it had, and I also believe he was in a difficult position to speak out too strongly against it. Should he have, well, of course, but in reality, when your job and livlihood are at stake, one treads water carefully.
BDay
6:38, I don't think any conspriracy charges are feasible, malicious prosecution for Nifong and evidence tampering, witness tampering, witness intimidation and obstruction of justice, maybe some others I haven't thought of for Gottleib and Wilson.
Wilson is in the most trouble, because he appears to have done the most witness tampering and intimidation..remember the strip club interviews? and he has the least imunity of any of them.
If he flips, Mike Nifong will do prison time, but IF he does, it won't be at any bar hearing, he will stick to his story, I believe.
What a case! It comes down to two words: "We're f*cked"! No one could make up this stuff.
Wait, lets see, Linwood Wilson witness intimidation and tampering incorporated is employed by the Durham county DA whose job it is to prosecute people who intmidate or tamper with witnesses. However, the Durham DA is Mike Nifong, on trial for a billion lies that Mr. Wilson helped construe. So, who arrests Wilson?? The AG ?? Well, I doubt it, they have already taken the stance that they can't get involved unless a crime is allegedy committed (don't see that happening). The USDOJ ?? One could only hope they get their lazy hinds off their perch and do something about the DEEP corruption in Durham.
BDay
Something isn't right. Either Gottlieb is going to come in and back Nifong to the nth degree [we all know that Wilson will], or Nifong [and his attorney?] are insane. No one would sit there and take that beating unless he has some hole cards to play, or he is truly sociopathic. The timing of the "we're f^cked" crack is just a monumental bombshell, from the extrajudicial statements to the hiding of DNA evidence [if the 3 would have pleaded to a reduced charge, none of this would ever have come out] it demonstrates what Nifong knew, and when he knew it. He has to have something in reserve, or he simply would have turned in his license and resigned. Or, he's flat crazy.
This cop is a crooked bastard. Surprised he is not taking fifth. Probably bunch of witnesses talking to their lawyers' tonight.
Just a bunch of good old boys framing kids. Probably pissed because they didn't even get a Jew.
Gottlieb will back Nifong, but it can't help him with the charges he is facing. Gottlieb can't get him out of his false and inflammatory statements and he can't get him out of what was said at the meeting w/Meehan. All Gottlieb can do is NOT add fuel to the fire by admitting that Nifong gave instructions on the memory report, the cab driver intimidation, etc.
The best Gottleib can possibly do for Mike Nifong is to not come up with more inculpatory information, as far as anything that can HELP him refute the charges, impossible.
I aree that Himan is no hero....however what emerged from his testimony was the picture of a very earnest and soldierly young investigator who no doubt was overly trusting in the judgement of his superiors professional judgement . Nothing in his answers or demeanor revealed a sinister side and in fact I understand how a gung-ho type could find himself in this regrettable position ( I was once gung-ho myself ) . He looks redeemable and did a good job helping spell out Nifong's fate today .
In the WRAL story up now, it is stated that "Freedman said Nifong made about 98 percent of his statements early on in the case before suspects were identified and charged."
If this is the case, that means 98% of his public statements were made before he was protected from civil liability in his official capacity as DA.
Or am I missing something here?
I may be wrong but I thought he had absolute immunity for anything he did as DA, it was only if he was acting in an investigative, police capacity where his immunity can be pierced, but I'm not sure.
I was only following orders!? That went out at at Mi Lai. This guy should be prosecuted with the rest of them.
Wow - this is everything I hoped it would be and the truth is coming out. I think he lost that immunity when he took over the role of lead investigator.
If he was going to turn in his license anyway - what has he got to lose going through the trial?
Yeah, that's what I think, I also think it can be proven that it was Nifong who was running the investigation.
Agree, this hearing so far is better than I could have expected as far as damning info. on Nifong.
7:19, what crimes are you going to prosecute Himan for? What witness did he intimidate? What report did he falsify? What evidence did he hide?
Why on earth did they do this to these guys? I just keep thinking it had to do with a deep hatred of Duke. What a waste...
Nifong is a long-time left winger / activist by temperament and sympathy. I'm sure he hates what he thinks Duke stands for, if not the university and students themselves. (and likely they are the same thing to him)
As a northerner who lived in Durham, studied in Chapel Hill and worked in the Research Triangle Park a decade ago, I watched the importation of fatuous left wing activist faculty. To be fair, some balance WAS needed, because Duke WAS characterized by wealthy good old boys from connected families. But predictably, what they imported was just as off-base, only on the other side politically and socially.
Bottom line: Nifong's prejudices virtually guaranteed he'd go looking to hang Duke frat/sports boys when a black woman claimed rape. The election sealed the deal but the motivation was there in any case.
He would have been better off resigning. Nifong is pure evil. Giving the finger to the defense lawyer was a class move. A true sociopath.
Some of you posters are really terrific on wanting other people to put their jobs and livelihood in jeopardy by "standing up." In the real world, we go to our bosses and notify them. Would sure like to know when was the last time some of you blew a whisle and put killed your own job.
While talking about the goodness of Himan, do remember he and Gottlieb were the two people to go in front of Grand Jury to get indictments on Reade and Collin. And Himan was the only person to go in front of Grand Jury go get an indictment on Dave.
Did he really give the finger to the defense? I find it hard to believe he did that with cameras rolling.
7 22
For one thing he did not tell the Grand Jury of his reservations. He was investigating officer. That is plenty - I think it is aggravated perjury.
Thanks 7:22 - It was Nifong's won bad self that caused this mess. The conspiracy folk like frame, whitewash and the like. As you can see, the frame and conspiracy are not in evidence.
7:22 What's he got to lose? I've never seen such fodder for a civil suit [I work in a large county prosecutor's office/civil division - he lost immunity under 42 USC Section 1983 when he took over investigation - if he made stuff up]. It's one thing to have a heaping pile of steaming crap you're trying to hide in discovery in civil litigation and trying to make someone jump through hoops to find [if that's the case, and your opposing counsel had a room temptature IQ, you're better off to settle the case as cheaply and as soon as possible]. It's another thing to serve up that heaping pile of steaming crap on a silver platter with sworn testimony in a televised hearing.
7:30 As no notes were made at the GJ hearing, how do you know what was said or, that anyone perjured themselves. Let's try and stick to the facts.
Jun 12, 2007 5:34:00 PM
To see Nifong flipping the bird,
http://liestoppers.blogspot.com/
Legally, that's a "finger cramp".
Imagine being sent to jail for 30 years by that immature dink. That would really ruin your day(s). He'd be sleeping just fine too.
I don't think people are talking about the 'goodness' of Himan, but I don't think he perjured himself before the grand jury as I suspect Gottlieb did and simply did not have to be as forthcoming on the stand today as he was.
7:33
Put on your thinking cap. He testified in GJ. He said today he knew it was all BS. I leave it to you to draw a conclusion.
KC said, quoting Himam:
Agreed with decision to dismiss charges: "From the interviews, it was clear she was lying."
Not "she was delusional" or "she believed her own story". The AG should have recommended she be indicted for her lies to law enforcement.
We also need to see similar hearings begin at Duke, to get to the bottom of the misuse of funds to purchase the "Listening" ad, and to determine how the names of whole departments ended up on the ad. Also, to determine how many more Kim Curtises -- professors who lower grades based on racial politics and other such factors -- are still at Duke.
The question to be asked of these four horsemen is "Did anyone carry a pad or notebook to or from meetings with Meehan".
4 cops, no notebook, no notes. Sounds fishy.
Sorry, guys, not stating your 'resevations' before a grand jury is not perjury, get real.
The cop gets on the stand and answers the set questions from the prosecutor, that's it. No extemporaneous comments.
Nifong's problem all along was timing, he was only really off by a couple of weeks, had he been able to keep the DNA evidence from the defense until after the election he could have dropped the charges and no one would have ever known, he might have been able to finese the bar hearing by admitting he made mistakes, etc. and get a letter of reprimand, done w/out a hearing.
But because he had to give over the DNA evidence prior to the election, his goose was cooked, the bar amended their complaint against him only a few weeks after the election and then he was in too deep, dropping the case wasn't going to get him out of the bar complaint..supressing exculpatory evidence was too serious a charge. His goose has been cooked since October 20th.
The conspiracy theorist,frame and whitewash people are taking a big hit at this trial.
Let's not get a witch hunt started, there is no 'there there' as far as who funded the listening statement, that is a silly waste of time that isn't going to get anywhere, even IF they used Duke funds, which I doubt, so what? It isn't a crime.
It would be much better to stay focused on the real, prime culprits Mike Nifong, Linwood Wilson and Gottlieb and not get sidetracked with a vendetta attitude on everyone else who was involved in the case.
7 40
I believe you are wrong. Since he was knowledgeable as to the state of the evidence and validity of the evidence it was likely
perjury
aggravated perjury
conspiracy
subordination of perjury
No, the cop doesn't get on the stand to answer a set of questions from the prosecutor in the Grand Jury room, because prosecutor is not allowed into the Grand Jury room in NC.
Nifong, Wilson, Gottlieb and the like are just the mushrooms. It's the 88 and their lying "meta-narrative" that provide the darkness and manure that produces the mushrooms.
Or to use another metaphor, let's not just slap mosquitoes when we can begin to drain the swamp.
If the DA isn't in the grand jury room who is presenting the states's case??
7:47
Yes, the black agenda is the real issue here. Of course, KC would never write that--he'd just imply it.
Polanski
I don't think actually Himan can be charged with anything regarding his Grand Jury testimony. In NC, Grand Jury proceedings are kept secret, there is no transcript, defense attorneys are not allowed into the Grand Jury room, and prosecutor is not allowed either. Thus, no one would ever know what Himan or Gottlieb told the Grand Jury.
7:47,
I see your point, but going after the $ behind the listening statement isn't going to change the politically correct climate on colleges, open the eyes of colleges that choosing 'diversity' over quality of applicants is a tragic mistake that we will pay for over decades, nor will it change the minds of the Gang of 88 types or their counterparts on the right.
The best way to combat this issue is through voter referendums on affirmative action. Once you remove the university's ability to actively discriminate based on race and ethnicity the "need" for weirdo majors will disappear since few qualified candidates are going to want to major in women's studies or African Literature of Sierra Leon or any of the other useless majors that now exist.
This case is about prosecutorial misconduct.
A better target for making changes would be the media, which might be somewhat educated or chastised by their poor behavior and coverage of this case, even that's a stretch
JLS say...,
re: anon 7:40
Some here are a bit over the top. Himan did not give a speech to the grand jury. He testified. That means the DA asked him a couple of question and he replied.
It likely went like:
DA: Det. Himan, Ms. Mangum said she was raped on the night of 13/14 March.
Det. Himan: Yes.
DA: Det Himan who did Ms. Mangum id as her rapists.
Det. Himan: Mr. Finnerty and Mr. Seligmann
That or something similar is likely the sum total of the testimony.
So where is the openning for him to offer his opinion? The DA has a duty to present exculpatory evidence. The witness has the duty to answer the questions asked, nothing more.
To 7:43
I disagree. "Vendetta" is a word with a nasty connotation but we are in fact faced with a situation involving many, many figures who have knowingly chosen to do wrong and evil things in this matter.
Dealing with all of them with the needed thoroughness might look like a vendetta or even a mass execution but I can see no reason to stop until the job is done.
Who is presenting the states case?
Gottlieb and Himan were the two presenting state's case to get Reade and Collin indicted, and Himan was the only one to present when Dave was indicted.
I think you are wrong about the prosecutor not being allowed in the grand jury, who presents the state's case? It can't be the judge, he/she is supposed to be neutral.
It's very unlikely it "went like this" because DA was not there.
7:53
The police do not present the state's case, they are called as witnesses, they answer whatever questions are asked of them by the prosecutor.
It is also not true that the prosecutor has any duty to present exculpatory evidence at a grand jury hearing.
I've already said, Gottlieb and Himan.
What is that you can't understand?
“We are aware that the district attorney made a presentation to the grand jury today, but we have no knowledge about the contents of his presentation,” said John F. Burness, senior vice president for public affairs and government relations.
You are wrong, the district attorney or ADA is the one who brings a case before a grand jury.
7 53
Those questions are insufficient to issue a true bill. The investigator must present some facts. However he says today the facts were baloney. I surmise he willfully acted to secure an indictment he new to be false.
8:01, I'm sure your heart is in the right place, but you don't know what you are talking about.
The bar for getting an indictment is very, very low. Indeed, all the cops have to say is we have a victim who says she was raped, she IDd her alleged attackers and we found evidence to corroborate her story including a SANE nurse who found her injuries consistent w/blunt force trauma and her behavior consistent w/that of a rape victim. That is more than enough to get an indictment.
Read up on NC Grand Jury. DAs do not go into the Grand Jury room, instead they arrange for witnesses (in this case Gottlieb and Himan) to go in front of the Grand Jury in NC.
So the Fong knew he was "F**ked", knew CGM was lying, knew the DNA evidence was exculpatory, knew Reade had an airtight alibi and decided to arrest Elmastofa(sp, knew that the lax players had cooperated, knew that Himan didn't think there was a case and decided to prosecute the lax players anyway. If he wasn't F**ked then he should be now !
8 04
That is more than 2 questions. You have included some evidence. However the cop (or DA) by not including the evidence to the contrary perjures himself.
Anyway you win. And indeed you did as the boys were indicted.
8:04.
That's very true. And since all the proceedings are secret, and there is no transcript, no one will ever know what Himan and Gottlieb told the Grand Jury.
The case narrative KC has assembled (http://durhamwonderland.blogspot.com/2007/03/overall-case-narrative.html) needs to change. There's no longer room for speculation that Nifong thought in late March 2006 that the crime may have actually occurred.
Cold blooded frame.
Michael 6:23 said...
...Spectator Removed From Nifong Ethics Proceedings.
::
Civil rights training makes it clear that your goal is to be arrested and handcuffed with the cameras rolling and not standing in front of the court house sucking air...and looking stupid.
Martin would not be pleased.
::
GP
and
Anonymous 7:43 said...
...Let's not get a witch hunt started, there is no 'there there' as far as who funded the listening statement, that is a silly waste of time that isn't going to get anywhere, even IF they used Duke funds, which I doubt, so what? It isn't a crime.
...It would be much better to stay focused on the real, prime culprits Mike Nifong, Linwood Wilson and Gottlieb and not get sidetracked with a vendetta attitude on everyone else who was involved in the case.
::
Check back with us 7:43 early next week and see if your view has changed after the trial.
Potbangers/Take Back the Night? - Castrate Signs? - Secret Racism being Taught? - Hostile Environment on Campus? Professors trying to force a diversity course down their throats of undergraduate students? Duke Affirmative Action staff of twelve (12) people? - Fired Co-Executive Directors of the Durham Crisis Center on the staff of Duke? - Fake Rape statistics being thrown about campus regularly? - Forthcoming faculty publications?
We'll see.
::
GP
I very much doubt my view will change, I know who is responsible for the false charges and it isn't the Group of 88, affirmative action or rape support services.
Your problem is you can't separate legal issues from moral issues or societal issues.
None of the issues you bring up are relevant in the LEAST to the charges against Nifong. All of the ranting on this site about DUMC getting sued, Levicy getting sued, Duke settling for millions is silly wishful thinking, not reality based and not based on any legal cause of action.
Himan is being truthful but reluctant on telling all he knows! His body language and voice is very indicative of this. Look for him to unload some explosive testimony if he starts getting pressured by Nifong's attorney. They might not even want to go there. The kid (literally) knows a lot more than he has testified to so dar.
Re: Himan's voice, listen carefully ... he has a mild lisp. I'm betting he developed a tendency to speak quietly many years ago, to avoid embarassment about it.
Agree 8:43- the conspiracy theory is falling apart. Grateful we are getting the truth,
typo "far"
The timing of Nifong's media statements does not matter for purposes of piercing his prosecutorial immunity in a civil suit for damages. The Supreme Court has said that making extrajudicial statements is NOT part of a prosecutor's traditional role, and therefore such statements are not protected by the "absolute immunity" normally afforded to prosecutors for their acts as prosecutors.
The timing of Nifong's media statements really does not matter in the ethics trial either, unless you're buying into the defense argument that it was okay for Nifong to make inflammatory and prejudicial statements about a pending criminal matter because no defendants had yet been indicted at the time he made most of the statements. The ethics rule that prohibits the kind of statements Nifong made do NOT make any such pre-indictment/post-indictment distinction. That distinction is a creation of Nifong and his lawyers -- and it will probably be given little weight by the Bar.
I feel bad for Himan, a young rookie cop gets thrown into the Durham cesspool of dirty cops and corrupt DAs, he did the best he could under the circumstances.
The defense's cross of Himan will be very interesting. They say that he will corroborate that Nifong never asked for the DNA to be withheld from the report.
8:43
Duke is already settling cases.
You will probably not be aware
of what that might include -
(nor will I.)
If Nifong had believed a crime
occured, he would have run the
DNA through a databank. (I said
that before, a long time ago.)
No we know why he didn't run
it through a perp-file: he knew
wihthout a doubt hat there was no
crime committed against Crystal
Gayle Mangum.
Now if we can just get the Hoaxers
to admit that she's only a victim
of her own evil/Nifonged-up mind?
I wonder how Levicy's story will
have evolved by tomorrow morning?
If she was going to testify for
Nifong, she must be aware that
she's attached her horse to a
burning cart.
As far as liability for Himan goes, I would hope that Judge Orlando Hudson would take a look at the
Grand Jury proceedings. He
indicated that he had jursidiction when two of the GJ members went on TV to tell their story.
I'd like to see Hudson call in Himan and Gottlieb and asked them what happened in the GJ. And then talk to the members of the GJ to get their side of the story. Imagine being on that GJ and then watching the proceedings today. I imagine that you'd wind up quite jaded at the system.
re: 7:28
[Some of you posters are really terrific on wanting other people to put their jobs and livelihood in jeopardy by "standing up." In the real world, we go to our bosses and notify them. Would sure like to know when was the last time some of you blew a whisle and put killed your own job.]
Been there, done that. Some of us work on products that companies and the military depend on where product problems can lead to large, negative consequences for companies or potential fatalities.
Of course I wouldn't expect someone that signs as anonymous to understand that.
My guess is Levicy is going to stick to her story...Mangun seemed like a rape victim to her...
What WILL be interesting is finding out where the 'maybe no condoms were used' angle came from, did it come from Levicy herself or from Nifong?
Himan says no condoms was noted several times in her report and that in all his meetings w/her prior to the Jan. meeting there was never a mention of maybe condoms were used and Crystal was mistaken about it.
IF she says Nifong suggested it to her, its another nail in his coffin. My guess is, he DID suggest it, but Levicy will go down with the ship and she won't admit it, she will say she was theorizing or some such nonsense but she won't finger him.
I really don't know what bombshell anyone thinks Levicy is going to drop. We already know she thought Mangum was acting like a rape victim and that she thinks diffuse edema is evidence of blunt force trauma. There are no revelations coming from her unless she says Nifong put her up to the idea of Crystal being mistaken about no condoms.
Himan might be better that the rest, but I don't think Himan deserves any medals. Who was signing affidavits?
Who went into a Grand Jury?
For Dave Evans, Gottlieb did not testify to the Grand Jury, Himan was the only one.
I expect her (Levicy) to say as
little as possible, and to answer
with "yes" or "no" whenever she
can.
Nifong's gonna have the last word,
more or less, with regard to
rebutting other witnesses, so
either they go totally against
him, and risk his rebuttal,
or they murmur inaudible
utterances, and don't give him
the ammunition to try to send
the missile back their way.
Watch what he tries to do to
Himan in the near future!
Kinda makes you wonder how anyone in their right mind believed any of this BS rape story ever. Those poor bastards on the lacrosse team must have thought they were in the twilight zone.
I cannot believe that people were actually indicted on this (incredible lack of) evidence.
Isn't it amazing, the forsight of KC Johnson, in naming this Blog - Durham-In-Wonderland !
Just when you think it can not get any "wackier," as Emeril Lagasse would say,
"BAM !, BAM !, BAM !"
Back up the Brinks trucks for the Duke LAX 3 !!
There isn't a risk to any witness unless it is to expose their own criminal or unethical behavior that I can see.
Nifong's attorney claims Himan will substantiate that he never asked the report to be censored, we'll see, my take is it has already been admitted that Meehan and Nifong AGREED to keep the exculpatory DNA out so it doesn't matter what Himan says.
We know that Nifong knew of the male DNA.
We know it was not in any report given to the defense.
We know Nifong knew it was not in any report given to the defense.
That adds up to hiding exculpatory evidence no matter whether you use the word 'agreed to' or 'Meehan did it' or 'privacy concerns. Mike Nifong is the DA, not Brian Meehan, he knows the law on discovery not Brian Meehan.
Nifong is going to be interesting on the stand. I half-think that the prosecution may get him to blowup on the stand.
Funny to see all these people on here defending this crooked cop. He's just the first of the rats to jump off the ship, more to come. Stop telling me that this sh!tstick's 25K a year job is worth the freedom of three innocent boys. It insults me.
It's possible, he appears to be somewhat unbalanced and from what people have said, prone to fits of rage. How great would that be, a Perry Mason on the stand meltdown!
He will either lie again on the stand or he will take the politician/CEO way out and simply have several memory lapses where he 'cant recall' dates or conversations, etc.
However, it is going to gall him no end to have to make himself appear the stupid bumbler that he IS, when he views himself as such a fabulous attorney that the defense was quaking in their boots at the mere thought of going up agaisnt him. LOL
Can Mikey take the 5th?
Can the testimony can be
used against him in a (potential)
criminal trial?
He'd have more 5ths than the local
Newark corner booze deli.
How do you know he's crooked? What evidence is there that he commited any crimes?
Not going public with his concerns is not the same as committing a crime. He went to his superiors, he voiced his concerns to Mike Nifong directly. What was he supposed to do, resign in protest?
All villans are not created equal.
I have this picture of Mike Nifong as Hitler in his bunker after October 20th, insanely plotting how he was goign foil his enemies even as things were unraveling more each day...sending out Wilson to dummy up more fake testimony from Mangum, trying to weave all his lies together, mumbling 'they don't know my timeline' over and over again.
Himan is no hero with his testimony today. He played along with the hoax until he was put under sworn testimony and knew he had better be truthful. He has a lot more info to offer if he is pressured. Remember he was one of the 2 detectives who entered Edens Dorm, without a warrant, that requires card id entry, behind a female student that had just entered,in an attempt to interview lacrosse players. Himan is young and goes with flow and today the flow was about telling the truth.
how do I know he crooked? you gotta be kiddin? he willingly participated in the Frame of three innocnent men. He went to a GJ and helped indict an man he KNEW was innocent! and no, I wouldn't want him to resign and give up his thirty pieces of silver.
unreal
What a glorious day!
More on the Victoria Peterson problem
More details on what she said to Mrs. Finnerty. Don't read it if you have high blood pressure.
In the wake of Officer Himan's testimony, I don't see how he can continue to be a police officer. I have posted some thoughts on this here:
http://www.greeneggsandbacon.blogspot.com/
Common sense has gone out the window, the woman was sitting in a courtroom listening to yet another law enforcement officer say that Mangum was lying and no rape took place but she can't get off her agenda long enough to pay attention and has to stick it to the mother by saying people in Durham still think her son is guilty.
Trash. She's trash. She belongs in Durham with all the rest of the race baiters who are so busy ranting about racism they forget to noice their neighborhood is knee deep in gang violence and poverty. Go figure.
I believe so. The answer to every question from Attorney Smith and Det Himan. Whatever happened to a firm yes or no answer? What a damn joke
Mac, you're so hot and witty. Is that what turns Debrah on about you?
10:34--You're right. When do you see any black person spending the time taking care of fundamental issues like family? Whether or not you live in Durham, you get an education in what black affirmative action has done to the country.
Poeple like Victoria Peterson are all over Durham. She just spends the time mugging for a camera constantly.
It's very funny when some try to say that this case was not always about race.
\
Michael - that is a load of Bravo Sierra. Some of us have jobs that deal with disaster, tragedy and help save people's lives, everyday. Of course, soneone who signs Michael(who and how do we reach you) would not understand that. Do tell of your moment, when you stood up and Blew the Whistle. Jack the Ripper
Damn! There are so many comments today my computer is choaking. KC must be pleased.
mac 9:04 said...
...I wonder how Levicy's story will
have evolved by tomorrow morning?
If she was going to testify for
Nifong, she must be aware that
she's attached her horse to a
burning cart.
::
That is a great visual.
Thanks.
Suppose Nifong thought he was attaching his horse to her cart?
::
GP
[Michael - that is a load of Bravo Sierra. Some of us have jobs that deal with disaster, tragedy and help save people's lives, everyday. Of course, soneone who signs Michael(who and how do we reach you) would not understand that. Do tell of your moment, when you stood up and Blew the Whistle. Jack the Ripper ]
I have a pretty hard time understanding your problem. That particular anonymous asked if someone has put their job on the line standing up to someone else. The comment on your jobs seems to me to be orthogonal to the point of standing up to someone like your boss to risk losing your job.
himan is alleged fitting his testimony to the facts ...of what happened that we are exposed on this pages
remember that wilson alleged did the same thing with the magnum testimony...crafting the questions to the facts being brought out by the defense and the alternative media
remember after accusing the three, she forgot...
how timely to fit the press reports
I know that today is the first of five days of testimony on this matter, but what was revealed today places Nifong and the others involved in the investigation in a bad light. If the next few days continue to follow the same path, then I foresee the following happening:
1. The city of Durham asking for his resignation, or if he refuses, that he is terminated, regardless of the outcome of the hearing.
2. Termination of the officers that were involved in the investigation, including members of Nifong's staff.
3. Civil lawsuits by the three lacrosse players, against the City of Durham, Duke University and the individuals involved in the investigation. I also see the former Lacrosse coach filing suit against Duke for his termination.
4. A review of all cases that Nifong prosecuted while in the DA's office by either the State AG's or the Feds.
5. Finally, if recommended by the hearing, and acted upon by the AG or the Feds, criminal charges against Nifong and his cronies for their actions in this case (maybe civil rights violations?).
I hate to say this, but Nifong and his group make the LAPD and the DA's office during the OJ trial looks like legal scholars. Maybe Gil Garcetti is available to replace the 'Fong in Durham?
This may surprise you but police officers are trained to NOT participate in frames designed by superiors. They have plenty of ways to expose a frame and not lose their jobs. This SOB was an enabler a la G88 but with axtual power.
Unfortunately, Nifong is an elected official and thus can't be terminated by the City. Not so for staff and officers however. The only way Nifong is leaving the DA's office is by being disbarred, which I think is now a foregone conclusion.
Having dealt with him on an almost daily basis for a few years in traffic court, (and having decided to stop practicing there due to Nifong's low grade tyranny), a few observations mat help put his bizarre behavior in perspective:
If I could describe Nifong in a sentence, based on my interactions with him, I'd do so by saying he is a narcissistic bully. The truth of any given matter was always secondary to how Nifong felt about you as the attorney handling the case. In traffic court, his favored attorneys got deals others of us could only dream about while we, as often as not, had our feet held to the fire over silly little things, or, in my instance, made special rules about WHEN we could negotiate with him. For instance, in my case, because I typically had a good number of traffic cases in district court, Nifong informed me that he wouldnt negotiate them with me during court because the time spent doing my business caused other attorneys to have to wait. Thus, I was made to schedule appointments with him after court hours to do so, which caused me to both have to attend Court AND then return in the afternoons to negotiate tickets at his convenience. Given I was from out of county, it was simply a not so subtle way of making my continued practice in Durham inconvenient. After years of this acceding to this treatment, Nifong decided to simply refuse to negotiate cases with me, based no less on some completely concocted allegation of unethical behavior on my part, effectively precluding me from making a living in Durham traffic court.
I say this not for your sympathy, but rather to give you some idea of the man's psyche. To Nifong, dispensing justice is all about personalities, not Truth, about ego, not fair dealing. I'm convinced the biggest (sort-term) mistake the Duke defendants made was to hire Joe Chesire and Kirk Osborne, both extremely fine attorneys who Nifong had a visceral dislike for. Given their presence in the case, it became for Nifong a game, a contest of egos, and the truth of the matter irrelevant. Luckily, given the integrity and competence of attorneys like Cheshire and Osborne, the truth wasn't lost in the process.
Remember as well that Nifong had essentially had his own little fiefdom in traffic court, where "justice" is always subjective and his will was gospel. I think this lulled him into the illusion that the same dynamic was in play in Criminal Superior Court, where he thught he could bully defendants in the same manner he has gotten away with for so long in District traffic court, where Jim Hardin and local judges gave him free reign.
I think if you look at it this way, it makes all of nifong's otherwise inexplicable actions intelligible.
Suffice it to say that theres no place in the justice system for the hubris of someone like Nifong, and it was only a matter of time before it all caught up with him.
Couldnt have happened to a nicer, more deserving guy.
anonymous @5:29:00 PM said...
No one except the woman hating men's rights people ever say that 'women NEVER lie about rape' you will never find a rape advocate anywhere who says no woman has ever lied about rape, that is a myth used to trash and bash rape advocates and rape victims.
Rubbish. My own mother, who has been involved in mainstream politics for fifty years, said exactly this to me a couple of days ago. The feminist insistance that authorities view EVERY claim of rape without scepticism is based on this attitude. You signalled your own hateful ideology in your first sentence. It would be the same ideology practised by those, such as the G88, who urged this fraud onward.
@5:29:00 PM then went on to say...
What they will tell you and its backed up by much data is that women rarely lie about rape.
There is also significant research suggesting the opposite. On the other hand feminists have been lying about rape for decades. Their politicisation of it is what created this mess in the first place.
Anonymous @5:57:00 PM said...
Those who don't think rape is a real problem will never believe otherwise, no amount of data, anecdotes, studies or surveys will convince the person who believes that women lie about rape because they 'regret' sex. It is an absurd notion that infantilizes women, turning them into psychopaths willing to do anything, go through any humiliation in order to 'get' the guy that they 'regret' having sex with. THe idea that this behavior is widespread is nonsensical on its face.
There are several well documented reasons why women sometimes lie about rape. "Regret" would be one of the lesser ones. If your default position is to assume women won't lie any examination of the issue you provide is bound to be flawed. Your mind is already closed. Your own actions enable false accusers who in turn do immense damage to your cause.
Anonymous @8:43:00 PM said...
I very much doubt my view will change, I know who is responsible for the false charges and it isn't the Group of 88, affirmative action or rape support services.
Your problem is you can't separate legal issues from moral issues or societal issues.
Unfortunately it is those things you mention which create the climate in which this mess occured. Without idealogues such as the G88, without AA, without gender feminist involvement in rape support services none of this happens to begin with.
Anonymous @9:13:00 PM said...
My guess is Levicy is going to stick to her story...Mangun seemed like a rape victim to her...
Personally I believe CGM is a rape victim but that it happened a long time ago and she seriously needs to get help for it. Wonder what did lead to the allegation when she was seventeen?
Victoria Peterson is an absolute disgrace.
Gary Packwood,
You could be right about Nifong
hitching his horse to Levicy's
cart, rather than the other way
around. (Today might provide some
answers?)
In any case, I'd say that there
was a whole team of horses.
Another equestrian analogy:
A horse will willingly
go back into a burning barn.
Today, we'll see who's the cart
and who's the horse.
gwallen,
Every claim of rape should be treated without skepticism until there is reason for skepticism, otherwise you start your investigation assuming the victim is a liar and that is crazy unless you are a woman hater who wrongly believes based on no credible evidece that most or many rape claims are false.
All legitimate evidence and research puts false claims somwhere between 3% and 8%. You can lie, spin and drag out your out of context data and your single anomalous study all you want and it won't change the facts.
Its a straw man argument, the men's rights groups use the myth that feminists say 'women never lie about rape' to ridicule ALL rape advocates and rape victims.
The truth is, rape advocates will tell you that women DO lie about rape but it is very RARE and generally falls into a handful of categories, none of which includes 'regret' for consensual sex. Only a total idiot would say that women NEVER lie about rape since there are many documented cases where they did just that.
Most false rape claims are like this one, they involve strangers and use of force, the victim struggles, but can't fight off her attacker, often the false rape claimant will fail to identify anyone, she will claim that 'big black men/hispanics/motorcycle gang/masked men' raped her, this allows her to get sympathy without having to ID anyone....the false rape claim tracks to the idea that society has of what rape is, stranger/violent/struggle.
Most rape complaints involve people who know each other and no force, if a woman is going to lie about rape she will do something better than 'I drank alot and he raped me'
It has been my personal experience at age 45 that most egomaniacal, physically threatening, or aggressive bullies coming out of high school, if they are even smart enough to graduate, end up becoming cops. Being a cop allows them to have their own little power trip even as they know that they have neither the intellect nor the inclination to do any other sort of job. They get to harass at will, ogle the women who arent so impressed by their uniform, give tickets and make arrests often for random reasons which they usually need not explain to anyone. Who else would be foolish enough to put their lives on the line everyday by making themselves targets for the real criminals in the population, all for $50K a year? For them, its a willing trade off. 20 years and a pension, along with the chance to harass minorities, rich people, teenagers, or whoever they feel like at their own discretion, what could be better than that? Plus you get to carry a gun, the ultimate penis symbol for emasculated, frustrated sociopaths. And of course, who can forget the graft and opportunities for extortion and starting your own little protection racket? Ironically, Nifong fits this mold, but he must have had enough brains to get through college and law school and somehow passed the bar. Clearly, he was not smart enough and far too vindictive to be successful in private practice vs the likes of Cheshire, et al. So he chose the path that brought him closest to those he could emulate, the Durham police, whose mistreatment of the general population for their own benefit and amusement fell right in line with his own evil tendencies. They are all made for each other. Read up on what police have been doing lately in Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, Newark, Detroit, Durham, etc... I have never heard a bigger line of bullshit than the words "To Protect and Serve". Yeah right. Self-service is more like it.
That's a little harsh, not sure that most police officer are that craven, though there is a sizeable minority that are.
It all goes back to our country giving up on standards across the board and substituting all manner of metrics in place of quality.
I recently read about the New Orleans police behavior in the wake of Katrina and I was stunned. Cops looting, killing and beating people at random, shooting people's PETS for target practice they had left behind, threatening to shoot people who wouldn't evacuate...
Yes also, Nifong is the classic bully, only smart enough to pass the bar.
anonymous @9:07:00 AM said...
Every claim of rape should be treated without skepticism until there is reason for skepticism, otherwise you start your investigation assuming the victim is a liar and that is crazy unless you are a woman hater who wrongly believes based on no credible evidece that most or many rape claims are false.
All legitimate evidence and research puts false claims somwhere between 3% and 8%. You can lie, spin and drag out your out of context data and your single anomalous study all you want and it won't change the facts.
There is a big difference between being sceptical and assuming an accuser is a liar. Investigators, like researchers, should start from a position of scepticism with accusers AND accused alike.
"Legitimate research" by your judgement is that which fits your own prejudice. Same with mens rights groups. I don't believe you. And I don't believe them.
As it stands it is feminist advocacy rather than that of mens rights groups which is tending to corrupt the system and the fundamental principles of our democracy. They have a provable record of exaggeration and hysteria on these isssues.
Proposed new laws in the UK and Australia reverse the burden of proof. Mexican men no longer have the right to consent. These things at the behest of feminists.
anonymous @10:08:00 AM
Actually most false claims of rape/sexual abuse occur in the family courts where the burden of proof is lower or non-existant.
Most rape complaints involve people who know each other and no force, if a woman is going to lie about rape she will do something better than 'I drank alot and he raped me'
And therefore devolve to one persons word against another. Feminist advocacy demands that one persons word be given more weight than that of another based on gender. That way lies bigotry.
When feminists start calling for the punishment of false accusers then I will start taking them seriously. Until that time they remain a corrupting influence.
DPD remind me of someone.....I got it , The keystone cops.
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